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Blade and Soul IS NOT PAY TO WIN


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Blade and Soul is not Pay to win. It's way worse than pay to win. Your focusing on the name "P2W" too much. It's not about having an advantage over another player in Blade and Soul, it's so much worse than a typical p2w game. If this game was truly p2w, everyone would be max geared. Imagine climbing a mountain that's very high and takes years to get to the top of alone vs paying for a rope to climb over. However, the rope breaks every 50-100ft you climb, and the mountain is 5000ft, so you have to keep buying ropes along the way, pouring more and more money into getting to the top of this mountain. Then 5 months later, all of the sudden the mountain grows another 1000ft. You get the point. But you also have the option of climbing the mountain without the rope. It takes way longer, but you hope someday you'll make it to the top. But in the back of your mind you know the mountain is going to crumble and fall down within the next 3-4 years. But you don't care because you enjoy climbing the mountain, even knowing that the higher points of the mountain are a lot cooler than the lower points. This is the NCsoft infrastructure. You PAY TO PROGRESS. You pour dollars into the game every trove, every rng box, every patch, to get to max gear, to get that ultimate parse, that 1.2mil dps/s. Then you realize that in the next patch there releasing a whole new raid, with even more time-consuming gear, that will take the average human with a ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ing life year to complete. Like I said, some people just play the game and enjoy it at under 1.2k ap. The game is Pay to Progress by a longshot. And when people try to rationalize why it is not?? It makes me want to vomit. It's an amazing game, but Bloodlust doesn't make the decisions, NCsoft does. WAKE-UP. STOP-SUPPORTING-THIS-COMPANY. GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN. 

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Blade and Soul is not Pay to win. It's way worse than pay to win. Your focusing on the name "P2W" too much. It's not about having an advantage over another player in Blade and Soul, it's so much worse

The problem is us (or so to say the people who keep buying rng boxes) they stopped trying to make a good game, they keep ninja nerfing our gold incomes patch after patch, further incentivizing the pur

That's a very childlike look of things, what players want is a fair play field, where your hardwork and skills are rewarded instead of your credit card. If you used your approach in real life to bribe

The problem is us (or so to say the people who keep buying rng boxes) they stopped trying to make a good game, they keep ninja nerfing our gold incomes patch after patch, further incentivizing the purchase of those rng boxes, it's disgusting and i can't wait until it's illegal to sell them everywhere on the planet.

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4 hours ago, DrindiX said:

The problem is us (or so to say the people who keep buying rng boxes) they stopped trying to make a good game, they keep ninja nerfing our gold incomes patch after patch, further incentivizing the purchase of those rng boxes, it's disgusting and i can't wait until it's illegal to sell them everywhere on the planet.

How are they ninja nerfing it exactly when its always explained on stream and in patch notes when they change gold rewards. Plus it makes sense as new content gets released to phase out old content and shove the rewarding pool.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Grimoir:

How are they ninja nerfing it exactly when its always explained on stream and in patch notes when they change gold rewards. Plus it makes sense as new content gets released to phase out old content and shove the rewarding pool.

Problem is that they're doing that without letting players compensate - they're nerfing the very same dungeons the vast majority can actually run and needs to run to progress.

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You're correct, it is not 'Pay to Win.' You get nothing to gain an advantage over other players. Your assertion that it is worse is completely off and factually incorrect. So, you post this stupendously misleading message. What does it ultimately do? It insults players who use the Hongmoon store. Then you tell the players 'do not support the game,' with our money? That last line is the true point of your fallacious post here. By writing the "do not support" line, you want to see the game and the company hurt. Why? Because you're filled with ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ and vinegar concerning the game. What that is? I don't know or want to know. That's your issue and problem. However, when you come out tell us not to support the game, you're infringing on our fun for playing the game.  You are wrong on too many levels to list for doing so.

 

FYI, the store does not give any player an advantage whatsoever. The Hongmoon store is available to ALL players to purchase those items they make available. Items, I shall remind you, that are limited in scope for what one can purchase. Team Bloodlust/NCsoft recognized this could be abused so that players could spend large about of NCoins to obtain items to level up their items. What they did do is make available items in limited quantities that players could purchase that may allow them to level up an item that only requires what the store has to offer to move to the next stage. Again, that is available to ALL players, not a select few.

 

Conversely, if you or others do not spend your own money or your NCoins for those items, that is your choice. A choice that you made, presumably, without any influence from anyone. You chose not to participate. Therefore, your charge that this is worse than P2W is nothing more than an unsubstantiated and subjective observation.

 

Truth be told, there is no way to buy from the Hongmoon store that which is needed to move from stage to stage on any item from zero. That alone removes any status of being remotely near P2W.

Likewise, if you're going to rail against the Hongmoon store, you should then rail against all the Coin Exchange merchants that allow us to purchase items that replace accessories or give us items that allow us to ensure we can level the items. By your own definition that would be P2W. However, since we have to grind for those times through earning them via various methods that alone negates the argument it is P2W.

Lastly, railing against players (which is what you're ultimately doing) that spend their money buying NCoins and purchasing items via the store is demeaning and insulting to all who do so. I purchased a 1 year subscription. I do not like the limitations of free to play. The benefits that come with my subscription is not just for me. Subscribing is available to any and all who want to do so. Question: do you sell items on the market to get NCoins? If so, what do you use them for? Do you buy a 30 day sub or higher? Do you buy from the Hongmoon store? NCsoft's business model here makes it possible for everyone to obtain NCoins and Hongmoon coins too. No one has any excuse for not using either method nor railing against those who do because someone makes the decision not to do so.

Finally, if you are so unhappy with the game and its current business model and how they have it set up, why then, are you still here? Being involved with the community with such negativity does not bode well for new players who visit these forums. First impressions have consequences. And for a new player to see this thread and the amount of negativity towards the game and the company may well drive away those who are easily influenced by such things as you posted here. It would be wise on your part, based on what you've written here, to simply walk away for a while or permanently. Such negativity and hatefulness is poison and doesn't belong here. An old axiom I learned long again applies here, "If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything."

I've said my piece on this. I do hope you change your tune, if not, then walk away to find something you can enjoy playing that does not have what you perceive to be here in this game.

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7 hours ago, DrindiX said:

The problem is us (or so to say the people who keep buying rng boxes) they stopped trying to make a good game, they keep ninja nerfing our gold incomes patch after patch, further incentivizing the purchase of those rng boxes, it's disgusting and i can't wait until it's illegal to sell them everywhere on the planet.

You should be glad that NCWest actively try to sink down the gold so that Currency Exchange is still viable for non-paying players to get their HMcoins by selling gold. And only by having Hmcoin, you can access F10 to buy outfits or RNG boxes.

 

Yeah, it is only like 1:1.5 for gold:hmcoin ratio now. But, in other regions where they don't bother sinking the gold, Currency Exchange is a wasteland and no one sell/buy. The only way to get items from F10 is either from currency given from subbing, or buying Ncoin.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb StrykerGaming:

Bunch about drivel trying to justify pay to win ("""pay to progress""") as neccessary and healthy to the game.

It hardly is neccessary, they can monetize in other ways. How about, gee i dont know, actually selling some of those literally hundreds of cool outfits we dont get access to? That monetisation system they'd orginally promised?

 

And if you consider being able to instamax gear your toons not a significant advantage, nevermind those literally unobtainable psyches now, or the unobtainable consumables... (whales get 200ap 600 crit damage consumable [usable in competive ladders], f2p a huge 15 ap consumable [cant be used in competive ladders]...) then i honestly dont know what to tell you. 

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12 hours ago, Grimoir said:

How are they ninja nerfing it exactly when its always explained on stream and in patch notes when they change gold rewards. Plus it makes sense as new content gets released to phase out old content and shove the rewarding pool.

I don't rly keep a notebook with all of the ninja nerfs that have happened but from the top of my head

1 The Mysterious Merchants wares in particular the gold chests rates were tweaked so hard to give you the lowest prize money where you are actually loosing gold, I for myself have opened around 15 chests always 10 gold other players confirmed the same.

2 Remember the Dragon gold box you could get from HM dungeons that gave 100 gold to > 5k yea goodbye to the only good thing we had.

3 Weeklies were also a good potential way to farm - NERFED.

 

4 Remember that thanks giving event where you get ingredients from all the crafting professions and/or dungeons to make a thanksgiving table, well that was ninja nerfed from last year- weaker rewards and limited count per dailies.

 

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9 hours ago, StrykerGaming said:

You're correct, it is not 'Pay to Win.' You get nothing to gain an advantage over other players. Your assertion that it is worse is completely off and factually incorrect. So, you post this stupendously misleading message. What does it ultimately do? It insults players who use the Hongmoon store. Then you tell the players 'do not support the game,' with our money? That last line is the true point of your fallacious post here. By writing the "do not support" line, you want to see the game and the company hurt. Why? Because you're filled with ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ and vinegar concerning the game. What that is? I don't know or want to know. That's your issue and problem. However, when you come out tell us not to support the game, you're infringing on our fun for playing the game.  You are wrong on too many levels to list for doing so.

 

FYI, the store does not give any player an advantage whatsoever. The Hongmoon store is available to ALL players to purchase those items they make available. Items, I shall remind you, that are limited in scope for what one can purchase. Team Bloodlust/NCsoft recognized this could be abused so that players could spend large about of NCoins to obtain items to level up their items. What they did do is make available items in limited quantities that players could purchase that may allow them to level up an item that only requires what the store has to offer to move to the next stage. Again, that is available to ALL players, not a select few.

 

Conversely, if you or others do not spend your own money or your NCoins for those items, that is your choice. A choice that you made, presumably, without any influence from anyone. You chose not to participate. Therefore, your charge that this is worse than P2W is nothing more than an unsubstantiated and subjective observation.

 

Truth be told, there is no way to buy from the Hongmoon store that which is needed to move from stage to stage on any item from zero. That alone removes any status of being remotely near P2W.

Likewise, if you're going to rail against the Hongmoon store, you should then rail against all the Coin Exchange merchants that allow us to purchase items that replace accessories or give us items that allow us to ensure we can level the items. By your own definition that would be P2W. However, since we have to grind for those times through earning them via various methods that alone negates the argument it is P2W.

Lastly, railing against players (which is what you're ultimately doing) that spend their money buying NCoins and purchasing items via the store is demeaning and insulting to all who do so. I purchased a 1 year subscription. I do not like the limitations of free to play. The benefits that come with my subscription is not just for me. Subscribing is available to any and all who want to do so. Question: do you sell items on the market to get NCoins? If so, what do you use them for? Do you buy a 30 day sub or higher? Do you buy from the Hongmoon store? NCsoft's business model here makes it possible for everyone to obtain NCoins and Hongmoon coins too. No one has any excuse for not using either method nor railing against those who do because someone makes the decision not to do so.

Finally, if you are so unhappy with the game and its current business model and how they have it set up, why then, are you still here? Being involved with the community with such negativity does not bode well for new players who visit these forums. First impressions have consequences. And for a new player to see this thread and the amount of negativity towards the game and the company may well drive away those who are easily influenced by such things as you posted here. It would be wise on your part, based on what you've written here, to simply walk away for a while or permanently. Such negativity and hatefulness is poison and doesn't belong here. An old axiom I learned long again applies here, "If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything."

I've said my piece on this. I do hope you change your tune, if not, then walk away to find something you can enjoy playing that does not have what you perceive to be here in this game.

Whale spotted. How many NCoin you throw to game? XD. BTW, are you sure materials are limited? I think I can buy as much trove keys / rngboxes as my credit card can ? The thing here is go bnstools.info and see how much gold / materials you'll need just for maxing weapon, then do same with every other item, gems, etc, then you see some ppl they just have it from day1 with their wallet, well, its dusgusting honestly, if it wouldn't be like this they probably can't make money out of the game because why are you going to try to have a decent art department that continuously releases new outfits and other creative stuff to sell it for a good amount of NCoins, or why are you going to have a developer team that continuously creates content for the game to make the player in a competitive environment where gearing is not needed when you can just use this lazy model based on endless grinding that can be accelerated or even skipped throwing to the game some hundreds or thousands of dolars, just why? We love this game for their combat system ,dungeons etc but most players dislike the model in which you have to invest an stupid amount of time and money to gear up, and there are better models out there, maybe not so profitable for the company but overall sustainable enough to make both sides happy

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5 hours ago, Granger said:

It hardly is neccessary, they can monetize in other ways. How about, gee i dont know, actually selling some of those literally hundreds of cool outfits we dont get access to? That monetisation system they'd orginally promised?

 

And if you consider being able to instamax gear your toons not a significant advantage, nevermind those literally unobtainable psyches now, or the unobtainable consumables... (whales get 200ap 600 crit damage consumable [usable in competive ladders], f2p a huge 15 ap consumable [cant be used in competive ladders]...) then i honestly dont know what to tell you. 

Instamax gear? From the Hongmoon store? You know that's impossible. But, you go head believing that is possible. If that were the case, I'd drop a grand into the game and max out all 11 toons of mine just because I can. That's not the case and I won't have to throw my money away in a futile effort. So, unless you have quantifiable proof of this 'instamax' your statement is undeniably false.

 

Now, about your direct insult at me and my statement. You and others like you make this community toxic with the kind of garbage. However, if it makes you fell superior to berate someone have at it. It only proves that you lack the common decency to hold a conversation. Naturally, when someone resorts to this tactic it means they've already lost the argument.

 

What it really boils down to is jealousy of those who are willing to spend their money. This is an undeniable truth. And that's the real underlying issue here. You and others call these players Whales. They are insulted for doing something you chose not to do or unable to do. And you think that's fair and equitable treatment of someone who plays this game? I pit you and those who act in this manner. Insulting people is not a way to go through life.

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10 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

What it really boils down to is jealousy of those who are willing to spend their money. This is an undeniable truth. And that's the real underlying issue here. You and others call these players Whales. They are insulted for doing something you chose not to do or unable to do. And you think that's fair and equitable treatment of someone who plays this game? I pit you and those who act in this manner. Insulting people is not a way to go through life.

That's a very childlike look of things, what players want is a fair play field, where your hardwork and skills are rewarded instead of your credit card. If you used your approach in real life to bribe your bosses for promotions(which happens btw) you wouldn't be talking such s-h-i-t cause it affects you personally and you will trash talk about those people. You may say but ingame it doesn't affect them personally, well it does as limited as the current player base is it gets even more limited to find suitable matches with those 1.5 1.6k lobbies.

 

And essentially what you are doing is shaming people for not being able to or unwilling to sink their wallet in a p2win game, disgusting.

Edited by DrindiX
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18 minutes ago, pingal1ty said:

Whale spotted. How many NCoin you throw to game? XD. BTW, are you sure materials are limited? I think I can buy as much trove keys / rngboxes as my credit card can ? The thing here is go bnstools.info and see how much gold / materials you'll need just for maxing weapon, then do same with every other item, gems, etc, then you see some ppl they just have it from day1 with their wallet, well, its dusgusting honestly, if it wouldn't be like this they probably can't make money out of the game because why are you going to try to have a decent art department that continuously releases new outfits and other creative stuff to sell it for a good amount of NCoins, or why are you going to have a developer team that continuously creates content for the game to make the player in a competitive environment where gearing is not needed when you can just use this lazy model based on endless grinding that can be accelerated or even skipped throwing to the game some hundreds or thousands of dolars, just why? We love this game for their combat system ,dungeons etc but most players dislike the model in which you have to invest an stupid amount of time and money to gear up, and there are better models out there, maybe not so profitable for the company but overall sustainable enough to make both sides happy

Jealous are you? I think I have 63 NCoins left and 200 to 300 HMcoins. If I wanted too, I could spend my entire game allowance I have set for the games I play in this game and obtain 20,000 NCoins. No credit card needed. I won't because I enjoy earning stuff through hard work and self-effort. But thanks for the insult though. I hope you do feel better about yourself. If you do, good for you. It means I was able to help someone with a esteem issues. As I told Granger, going through life insulting people isn't a way to go. Karma has a way of balancing out life for those who act that way. You know, 'what goes around, comes around.' Enjoy!

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6 minutes ago, DrindiX said:

And essentially what you are doing is shaming people for not being able to or unwilling to sink their wallet in a p2win game, disgusting.

Ahaha...okay, I struck a cord with you. You are jealous of those who, in your own words, "sink their wallets in a p2win game." You talk about disgusting? Your previous post is the definition of that word. However, that's okay. Keep throwing out the insults, its the only thing you have available to support a untenable position and argument.

Edited by StrykerGaming
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17 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

Jealous are you? I think I have 63 NCoins left and 200 to 300 HMcoins. If I wanted too, I could spend my entire game allowance I have set for the games I play in this game and obtain 20,000 NCoins. No credit card needed. I won't because I enjoy earning stuff through hard work and self-effort. But thanks for the insult though. I hope you do feel better about yourself. If you do, good for you. It means I was able to help someone with a esteem issues. As I told Granger, going through life insulting people isn't a way to go. Karma has a way of balancing out life for those who act that way. You know, 'what goes around, comes around.' Enjoy!

I don't care for what you have or you lack, I care for a better game model where everybody can gear up and get rewarded enough by playing the game without to enslave themselves or throw large amounts of money to catch up. I don't think its that hard to understand.

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42 minutes ago, DrindiX said:

I don't rly keep a notebook with all of the ninja nerfs that have happened but from the top of my head

1 The Mysterious Merchants wares in particular the gold chests rates were tweaked so hard to give you the lowest prize money where you are actually loosing gold, I for myself have opened around 15 chests always 10 gold other players confirmed the same.

2 Remember the Dragon gold box you could get from HM dungeons that gave 100 gold to > 5k yea goodbye to the only good thing we had.

3 Weeklies were also a good potential way to farm - NERFED.

 

4 Remember that thanks giving event where you get ingredients from all the crafting professions and/or dungeons to make a thanksgiving table, well that was ninja nerfed from last year- weaker rewards and limited count per dailies.

 

1. It wasnt rigged. its was simply how the box works. i got more than 10g  from it a few times. its a risk to buy it since it gives gold back. risk it or not its up to you.

2. Its good those were removed. it was an unnecessary influx of gold that should not be there, many players will tell you its good those got removed.

3. Yes because there were 2 new weeklies added. so the gold shifted. its what happens with new content and has been happening for 3 years that the game is out.

 

4.  Partially yes, but main reason was because in last event people simply exploited it with alts so i would blame the players than the company for changing it.

11 hours ago, Granger said:

Problem is that they're doing that without letting players compensate - they're nerfing the very same dungeons the vast majority can actually run and needs to run to progress.

thats not entirely true, people have the gear for better  / higher content only why do higher content if you can cheese through this low dungeon for the same reward. thats why the rewards shift to actually force players to progress which in the long run is a good thing.

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it would be nice if you could progress just as fast as a paying customer but this is the reality/necessity of running any software business for those who never worked at a software company or business before (on the bright side, if others get powerful with their gear regardless, all the better since it just means they will help clear the dungeon/raid faster)

1) Almost ALL free-to-play MMO games have it that you can buy cosmetics as well as upgrade materials because ONLY about 2% (industry average) of the population buys something from the store --

and WITHOUT THE PLAYERS BUYING SOMETHING, THE GAME & SERVERS SHUT DOWN ..

 companies only spend money on things that earn them a income/profit so that 2% of the BUYING population is supporting everyone else --if not, the companies would just transfer more of the current programmers to other more profitable projects like another mobile game, DOTA-PUBG clone, WoW-clone, etc

2) Because only about 2% of the population buy, there are games that you have only cosmetics that are buyable but they almost always require you to BUY THE GAME FIRST at $50-$60 upfront
and/or

a subscription fee of $10-$15/month or you have to buy  expansions at $30-$50 a pop .. you either pay up front or you pay in precise upgrade materials

Cosmetics by themselves IS NOT ENOUGH to support a free-to-play MMO game, servers, & hiring programmers at $50k to $200k each (more like $70k to $150k average including benefits) salary .. office rent & electricity isn't cheap (about several thousand to tens of thousands per month rent depending on location/size)

3) the FREE players are NOT the actual CUSTOMERS -- ONLY the PAYING players are because it's ONLY their spending that keeps the lights on so that EVERYONE ELSE  can also play ..

without paying customers, the game or company shuts down and/or they are moved to higher income-producing projects

Again, cosmetics by themselves are not enough in USA/EU .. if you research the history, Blade & Soul/Tera was actually going to shut down in Japan after several months after debuting
 but
school girl uniforms gave them a lifeline so that saved them in Japan 
but
it's a 1-shot sale (how many school uniforms can a Japanese customer buy? they sold well because in Asia/Japan, almost everyone has to wear a uniform to school so a guy's first crush/1st love is almost always a girl in a school uniform
but
they don't sell as much in USA (most don't wear school uniforms & it's considered too lolly/LOLA in US, LOL)

Edited by JiuJitsuBuddha
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40 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

Ahaha...okay, I struck a cord with you. You are jealous of those who, in your own words, "sink their wallets in a p2win game." You talk about disgusting? Your previous post is the definition of that word. However, that's okay. Keep throwing out the insults, its the only thing you have available to support a untenable position and argument.

Wonderful you continue to respond and in all the answers you avoid RNG Box and Trove.

Really I liked to listen to your excuses about it. (RNG box where you can buy end game gems just an exemple)

When NCS Rank PVE contente and gives good rewards to who has better gear and not skill yes the game is P2W.

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27 minutes ago, JiuJitsuBuddha said:

it would be nice if you could progress just as fast as a paying customer but this is the reality/necessity of running any software business for those who never worked at a software company or business before (on the bright side, if others get powerful with their gear regardless, all the better since it just means they will help clear the dungeon/raid faster)

1) Almost ALL free-to-play MMO games have it that you can buy cosmetics as well as upgrade materials because ONLY about 2% (industry average) of the population buys something from the store --

and WITHOUT THE PLAYERS BUYING SOMETHING, THE GAME & SERVERS SHUT DOWN ..

 companies only spend money on things that earn them a income/profit so that 2% of the BUYING population is supporting everyone else --if not, the companies would just transfer more of the current programmers to other more profitable projects like another mobile game, DOTA-PUBG clone, WoW-clone, etc

2) Because only about 2% of the population buy, there are games that you have only cosmetics that are buyable but they almost always require you to BUY THE GAME FIRST at $50-$60 upfront
and/or

a subscription fee of $10-$15/month or you have to buy  expansions at $30-$50 a pop .. you either pay up front or you pay in precise upgrade materials

Cosmetics by themselves IS NOT ENOUGH to support a free-to-play MMO game, servers, & hiring programmers at $50k to $200k each (more like $70k to $150k average including benefits) salary .. office rent & electricity isn't cheap (about several thousand to tens of thousands per month rent depending on location/size)

3) the FREE players are NOT the actual CUSTOMERS -- ONLY the PAYING players are because it's ONLY their spending that keeps the lights on so that EVERYONE ELSE  can also play ..

without paying customers, the game or company shuts down and/or they are moved to higher income-producing projects

Again, cosmetics by themselves are not enough in USA/EU .. if you research the history, Blade & Soul/Tera was actually going to shut down in Japan after several months after debuting
 but
school girl uniforms gave them a lifeline so that saved them in Japan 
but
it's a 1-shot sale (how many school uniforms can a Japanese customer buy? they sold well because in Asia/Japan, almost everyone has to wear a uniform to school so a guy's first crush/1st love is almost always a girl in a school uniform
but
they don't sell as much in USA (most don't wear school uniforms & it's considered too lolly/LOLA in US, LOL)

Last year balance for NCSoft was a net profit of over 50 milion USD. That's something you can check yourself on the internet and true data, however your 2% of paying over 98 f2p who will never spend looks delusional to me, most of ppl I play with they pay for the month sub to the game, then there's also a portion of players who spend from time to time in boxes or troves, and then there is a minority that I know myself that spend absolutely 0 into the game. Maybe a lot of players spend 0 because they start the game play it couple weeks, realize how hard is to get to max level, gear up etc and they just give up, but don't think this is a 98%.

 

In other words a different model is possible, thing is that its not as profitable as actual model with $50 milion of profit, But I am sure it is possible and would made playerbase happier.

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36 minutes ago, pingal1ty said:

I don't care for what you have or you lack, I care for a better game model where everybody can gear up and get rewarded enough by playing the game without to enslave themselves or throw large amounts of money to catch up. I don't think its that hard to understand.

The current model is nearly what as you ask for. It may not be perfect; however, everything in this game available to everyone. You want to know what's not available to me? A Royal Zen Bean. I cannot earn one or purchase one. Why? Because I am unable to PvP or at least be competitive in PvP because I'm playing with such a high ping PvP isn't a viable option for me. I could, but I'd end up being thoroughly trashed as everyone's whipping boy. This is why I left 15 months ago. So much of the requirements were behind the PvP wall I couldn't get my weapon higher than stage 5. Unless they sell that in the market, I cannot get it. That means I don't get a boost to my Lightning Draw attack. However, they revamped the system and now I have a stage 4 Raven weapon thanks to all the stuff they made available on my way up to 55 on my main. This is the reason I returned to the game.

Those who can PvP will easily obtain it. I don't decry them for it. I accept it and move on. However, the current meta in the forums and in-game is to bad mouth and insult players they deem "whales" because they spend their money in the game. It just happened here in this very thread. Until people start accepting what is available to them (which everything is for those who can play every aspect of this game), this toxic environment brought on by those who won't or cannot open their wallets, nothing will change and players (new ones and old ones too) will abandoned the game. This something that NCsoft cannot do anything about. Unless they have a real incentive to make changes to their current business model, players are still going to call this unfair and mean to those who cannot or will not spend money.

BTW, did you know it is quite possible to earn enough NCoins from the market selling gold earned that you can pay for a month of premium? A friend and member of my clan did so. It is for that very reason I put some of my NCoins in for buying gold. I know they're trying to earn the coins. My point is with effort and willingness, anyone can fund themselves in this game one way or other other.

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43 minutes ago, pingal1ty said:

Last year balance for NCSoft was a net profit of over 50 milion USD. That's something you can check yourself on the internet and true data, however your 2% of paying over 98 f2p who will never spend looks delusional to me, most of ppl I play with they pay for the month sub to the game, then there's also a portion of players who spend from time to time in boxes or troves, and then there is a minority that I know myself that spend absolutely 0 into the game. Maybe a lot of players spend 0 because they start the game play it couple weeks, realize how hard is to get to max level, gear up etc and they just give up, but don't think this is a 98%.

 

In other words a different model is possible, thing is that its not as profitable as actual model with $50 milion of profit, But I am sure it is possible and would made playerbase happier.

Pnig, here's industry data you can check youself .. this is just one of MANY data mining multiple studies done at multiple different game companies throughout the industry every couple of years to track sales --all showed only about 2% buy: 

 

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-04-09-only-2-2-percent-of-free-to-play-users-ever-pay-report
"Retention and monetization are two of the biggest challenges for any free-to-play game developer. But as reported by Re/code, a new report from app testing firm Swrve suggests they may be even more challenging than previously believed.
 

Swrve tracked the habits of 10 million new players on 30 games in its network over the course of 90 days, finding that only 2.2 percent of those players ever spent money.

The spending of monetized players wasn't spread evenly, as Swrve found 46 percent of revenue came from just 10 percent of that group, or .22 percent of the total player base...."

====

in other words, not only is it just about 2% ever buy something in 90 days.. only the top 10% of that top 2% buying (aka 0.22% of entire player base) is responsible for 46% of the  game's revenue!

ie, the 'whales' are doing most of the supporting the game's income that make it possible to keep programmers delivering new content & keeping the servers/lights on

Keep in mind Blade & Soul & other free to play games can still get several million income because 2% of players is still several hundred thousand players:

1) There's 20+ MILLION players of Blade & Soul in China (press release by NCSoft)  --that's about 400,000 customers who paid/pay

2) There's several million players of Blade & Soul in S. Korea, USA, & Europe .. less than 400,000 customers (no press release) ..actual numbers of players are secret but BnS buddy shows about 20,000+ players online concurrently highest I've ever seen.. 

 

Typically, only about 5% to 20% of a game's population are online concurrently

for comparison to other industries from multiple marketing studies:


Only about 2% of people buy something when given a free sample (such as free trials/samples of food at Costco, food courts, etc)

 

Only 2% to 5% click links on online ads

 

Less than 1% respond to direct mail, email ads (aka 'spam')


--

The reason why cosmetics & other items are 'limited time only!' is because it increases sales rates (actual studies & sales data) .. by creating a 'limited time' deadline, it forces people to buy now (instead of delaying it) to take advantage of the sale/limited availablity which is why stores give an end date for their sales also

 

ie, "Christmas sale, YoMomma whatever sale ends tomorrow so BUY NOW!"

Edited by JiuJitsuBuddha
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52 minutes ago, Fufia said:

Wonderful you continue to respond and in all the answers you avoid RNG Box and Trove.

Really I liked to listen to your excuses about it. (RNG box where you can buy end game gems just an exemple)

When NCS Rank PVE contente and gives good rewards to who has better gear and not skill yes the game is P2W.

I am not avoiding the RNG box and Trove. The former I've not yet been involved with unless you're talking about the box you can obtain for 30 ncoins a day as a subscriber (a benefit and incentive I might add). Once a day (24 hour period) I have access to. If that's the case, what's the issue? That premium players get it and the F2P players do not? Again if this is what you're specifically addressing, it is available to everyone who subs for a premium account. $11.99/month for 30 days...that's pretty good deal. That's far less than most MMOs who offer some type of subscription. Most players probably spend far more than that going to a fast food joint or buying a bunch of junk food and sodas for sitting behind their computers to play this game. You don't have to have a credit card. You can pay via PayPal from a checking or savings account.

If you're talking about a different RNG box (the one they're currently offering in the HM store 1, 10, or 50, that's available to everyone. Choices here...buy or not buy. No one is denying anyone the opportunity to obtain any of these items. Here you can get a NCoin card pay for it via PayPal and have the coins to do what one wants to do; https://www.seagm.com/ncsoft-ncoin-card. I don't see this as a problem. All of this is available to any and all who want it. Let us not forget that is possible to earn NCoins via the market by selling items for gold and then put the gold up for sale for the coins. Sell enough of it you can have enough coins to purchase a membership and/or by RNG boxes from the HM store.


As for the Treasure Trove...I don't see the issue with it either (If you're talking about the spin). F2P get 2 spins while premium players get an extra one as a benefit for their membership. All, and I mean all MMO games have special benefits for those who choose a premium membership or subscribe. It would stand to reason that is a benefit to all players to get a premium membership ($11.99/30 days). This is their current model. It is superior to that of Final Fantasy XIV, vastly superior to that of SWTOR, and almost identical to what you get from Neverwinter; however, its still better in my opinion. It comes down to a choice; being strictly F2P or have a premium membership. It is fair because it is offered to everyone.

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14 minutes ago, JiuJitsuBuddha said:

Pnig, here's industry data you can check youself .. this is just one of MANY data mining studies done at different game companies every couple of years --all showed only about 2% buy: 

 

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-04-09-only-2-2-percent-of-free-to-play-users-ever-pay-report
"Retention and monetization are two of the biggest challenges for any free-to-play game developer. But as reported by Re/code, a new report from app testing firm Swrve suggests they may be even more challenging than previously believed.
 

Swrve tracked the habits of 10 million new players on 30 games in its network over the course of 90 days, finding that only 2.2 percent of those players ever spent money.

The spending of monetized players wasn't spread evenly, as Swrve found 46 percent of revenue came from just 10 percent of that group, or .22 percent of the total player base...."

====

in other words, not only is it just about 2% ever buy something in 90 days.. only the top 10% of that top 2% buying (aka 0.22% of entire player base) is responsible for 46% of the  game's revenue!

ie, the 'whales' are doing most of the supporting the game's income that make it possible to keep programmers delivering new content & keeping the servers/lights on

Keep in mind Blade & Soul & other free to play games can still get several million income because 2% of players is still several hundred thousand players:

1) There's 20+ MILLION players of Blade & Soul in China (press release by NCSoft)  --that's about 200,000 customers who paid/pay

2) There's several million players of Blade & Soul in S. Korea, USA, & Europe .. less than 200,000 customers (no press release) ..actual numbers of players are secret but BnS buddy shows about 20,000+ players online concurrently highest I've ever seen.. 

 

Typically, only about 5% to 20% of a game's population are online concurrently

for comparison to other industries from multiple marketing studies:

Only about 2% of people buy something when given a free sample (such as free trials/samples of food at Costco, food courts, etc)

 

Only 2% to 5% click links on online ads

 

Less than 1% respond to direct mail, email ads (aka 'spam')


 

Swrve is an external company, I might spend but don't want to share it with a company that sells my data. The only ones who know who spend and who doesn't is the company itself, still no argument on that 50$ milion profit, I don't think 0.22% of the player base make ncsoft earn 50 milion dolar, for me sounds more like microtransaction from ppl who buy some rng boxes for 5$ or a costume, pet, etc that make the massive amount of money, whales are just disgusting p2w users, a different model is possible, its just not that much profitable.

 

Look at it this way, in the 80's and 90's you used to buy entertainment software and it came in many different kind of supports such as casette for commodore, msx and other personal pcs, to disks, cartridges (for consoles like nintendo, sega etc) then cd-rom for PC, playstation, etc, then DVD-Rom. There is a cost in developing the game, there is a cost in distributing, there is a cost in doing hundred thousand copys of the game and all those company do also pay the lights and the bills, can you explain me how a game that is digitally distributed can be more expensive please? There is no distribution chain, and lets talk FACTS, systems that originally were made in Japan, didn't land USA or Europe after years later because and only because they needed to find a strategy for distribution, and systems made in the USA or Europe didn't reach the other regions after years for the same reason, how can today internet that interconnects the whole world in one have a distribution problem? Only translation, but hey, said videogames when you buy them they come in multiple languages. Still even with this model of distribution and monetization NCSoft does 50 milion dolar, how can you even say 0.22% of the player base are responible for that revenue, has no real sense my friend, what they have to do is to stop being that greedy and make the game more playable and enjoyable for their player base and that will actually give people a reason to spend on it. Someone here mentioned Tera, the elins and the maid costumes, and its a true story, elins and the maid costume saved that game, but the true fact is with a monthly subscription and few spenses to maintain the game, its absolutely enough money made to keep the game running, pay salaries and earn profit, so its not a money problem its a GREED problem and a cultural problem in our modern world where companys want to grow and grow and grow to the infinite for what reason? If at least they would invest that money into fixing all the game bugs we player base been complaining since forever, but no, instead they invest I+D into how to create new necessity to playerbase and milk them more money, that's the actual truth.

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2 hours ago, StrykerGaming said:

Instamax gear? From the Hongmoon store? You know that's impossible. But, you go head believing that is possible. If that were the case, I'd drop a grand into the game and max out all 11 toons of mine just because I can. That's not the case and I won't have to throw my money away in a futile effort. So, unless you have quantifiable proof of this 'instamax' your statement is undeniably false.

I was referring to this. THe RNG Box that has guaranteed drop of Phantasmic Eye (I do not remember the name of the Box) literally let you buy end game gear without RNG.

This Box have 2 versions.

Hcoin version dont have guaranteed drop of Phantasmic Eye. (F2P ppl cant buy end game gear)

Ncoin version have guaranteed drop of Phantasmic Eye. (you can buy end game geams all the pet pack and vial you need and more. without RNG) P2W confirmed

This was not the first time. you have much more exemples. But, you go head believing that is NOT possible. 

Edited by Fufia
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