Adrian Stormrage

Genuine question about wind summoners in arena

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Nivalias   

Well, that was pretty unlucky, as iirc it depends on whether or not it's a crit hit that the cat gets a second aerial extender.

Aside from that, my (admittedly limited) experience as Sin vs. Sum is that you need to play aggressively against them. Strike fast and strike hard, before they do. For example you could've to use your blink step faster, before they rooted you so that you could get into your pace. You could've also used your turning leaf to get them out of the air and get a premptive strike on them, before they trick-shot you. Also, you can safely spec Blue Buff. Lotus of Escape isn't going to help you much, and even without it you have enough escapes left for all their CC's.

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RavTH   

try to do a different opener also I see you running with bombard that's cool but you had chance to get that summoner when he was gliding with Q and 1 or from distance 3 kd (if you had that speced) also you could ss towards them and place land mine under them when they were in mid air, but that's cool.

With summoners you need to play either on time or hit and run.
Make sure to rotate between your tab escape and flower correctly and don't use them all at once. (you probably know dat but just saying here on forum incase someone needs a small tip.)

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Sorry just to clarify, my main is a kfm not a sin. I just gave this clip as an example as the same thing is happening to me quite often.

On the occasions I'm not getting one shotted in the aerial, I lose around 80% of my hp.

Tabbing before I get aired by the cat doesn't seem to work either as I'm getting insta aired the moment I get stunned or dazed.

 

So I'm more interested on how to deal with them as kfm

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SkFy   

it's obviously just BS, if I play my sum and I have a lower ping then my opp they just cant tab before I air them.. while others can...
It's not even pvp or being good, its all about your ping/fps..
The "top pvpers" are blessed with a good enough ping/fps to tab it before they can air you... lucky few who are blessed by rngesus with a stable game... while 99% has to deal with lag all the time ever since the amazon servers....

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Grimoir   
6 hours ago, SkFy said:

it's obviously just BS, if I play my sum and I have a lower ping then my opp they just cant tab before I air them.. while others can...
It's not even pvp or being good, its all about your ping/fps..
The "top pvpers" are blessed with a good enough ping/fps to tab it before they can air you... lucky few who are blessed by rngesus with a stable game... while 99% has to deal with lag all the time ever since the amazon servers....

Or...they are simply smart and know how to avoid it in the first place.....

The summ can only aerial you if you are stunned or dazed.

 

@Adrian Stormrage

To me it seems you just need more practice, like you said sin isnt your main so i guess you are just not as good with it as someone who mains it would be. Practice makes perfect. You can always ask some summ to spar with you so you can practice :)

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6 hours ago, Grimoir said:

The summ can only aerial you if you are stunned or dazed.

The problem is that when you get stunned/dazed, you don't have enough time to escape before you get aerialed and lose 90% of your HP. The cat skill that aerials you had its speed increased a few patches ago so if the summoner has a good enough ping you can't escape before you get launched in the air.

 

Basically, my problem with this is that all the summoner needs to do is perform a successful tech chase (or catch you out with a stun/daze) and they can aerial their opponent for a LARGE part of their hp. Even if you have your escape available, you can't use it because the damage comes during an aerial. There is no counterplay to this other than "don't get caught", and you can use that logic to justify any broken skill.

 

I don't think the devs realized how much this change would affect balance. You can see that they wanted to do something about broken aerials, as they nerfed the WL aerial in arena, but then they buffed the summoner aerial launch and turned it into WL 2.0 aerial. Another contradiction you can observe is that the SIN ground counter guard break (the one which stunned on breaking defense) got changed so it's unusable on ground counters anymore, but then they make WR and give it that exact same skill that works on ground counters. All in all, the devs who are in charge of balance need to get their act together.

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Nivalias   
22 hours ago, Adrian Stormrage said:

So I'm more interested on how to deal with them as kfm

That's simple. Just spam 1 whenever they are auto-attacking. Wait for an opening, then use your CC's to bait their espaces and stunlock them. You have also your own numerous aerials to get rid of a good chunk of their HP.

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17 hours ago, Nivalias said:

That's simple. Just spam 1 whenever they are auto-attacking. Wait for an opening, then use your CC's to bait their espaces and stunlock them. You have also your own numerous aerials to get rid of a good chunk of their HP.

Not sure if serious. Spamming 1 means the summoner will insta guard break kd me then i get stunned and aerialed and lose 90% of my hp.

That's besides the ground aoe which they can use to disable my 1...or the cat grabbing me the instant i use 1 if I'm close to it.

 

On 1/18/2019 at 1:52 PM, Chara Dreemurr said:

The problem is that when you get stunned/dazed, you don't have enough time to escape before you get aerialed and lose 90% of your HP. The cat skill that aerials you had its speed increased a few patches ago so if the summoner has a good enough ping you can't escape before you get launched in the air.

 

Basically, my problem with this is that all the summoner needs to do is perform a successful tech chase (or catch you out with a stun/daze) and they can aerial their opponent for a LARGE part of their hp. Even if you have your escape available, you can't use it because the damage comes during an aerial. There is no counterplay to this other than "don't get caught", and you can use that logic to justify any broken skill.

 

I don't think the devs realized how much this change would affect balance. You can see that they wanted to do something about broken aerials, as they nerfed the WL aerial in arena, but then they buffed the summoner aerial launch and turned it into WL 2.0 aerial. Another contradiction you can observe is that the SIN ground counter guard break (the one which stunned on breaking defense) got changed so it's unusable on ground counters anymore, but then they make WR and give it that exact same skill that works on ground counters. All in all, the devs who are in charge of balance need to get their act together.

Yes the warlock example is exactly what I had in mind. Why did they nerf warlock aerial damage output but then provide summoners with the exact same thing? It doesn't make much sense.

Either give it back to warlock if it was balanced or remove it from summoner as well. A little consistency would be nice.

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Nivalias   
1 hour ago, Adrian Stormrage said:

Not sure if serious. Spamming 1 means the summoner will insta guard break kd me then i get stunned and aerialed and lose 90% of my hp.

That's besides the ground aoe which they can use to disable my 1...or the cat grabbing me the instant i use 1 if I'm close to it.

Semi-serious. Spamming Block to counter their auto-attack spamming is very viable. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think they can't ani cancel into the guard break KD. It's also also possible for them to miss the timing and waste their skill without any effect (although that was corrected in a patch a while ago? I can't remember). Even if you get KD'd, just recover with your 2. It's unlikely that they're not hitting into it.

Cat grab can also probably not be cancelled in, so all you have to do is move away a few meters, watch the timing for their auto-charge, and get free iFrames for blocking it.

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Grimoir   
1 hour ago, Adrian Stormrage said:

Not sure if serious. Spamming 1 means the summoner will insta guard break kd me then i get stunned and aerialed and lose 90% of my hp.

That's besides the ground aoe which they can use to disable my 1...or the cat grabbing me the instant i use 1 if I'm close to it.

 

Yes the warlock example is exactly what I had in mind. Why did they nerf warlock aerial damage output but then provide summoners with the exact same thing? It doesn't make much sense.

Either give it back to warlock if it was balanced or remove it from summoner as well. A little consistency would be nice.

they did not nerf the aerial damage output. also summoenrs aerial is the same it was since 3 years.Warlocks could double aerial you with ease, thats what got nerfed they cant do that so easily anymore, warlocks second aerial is like thye summoners and depends on crits.

as for summoner, he can ONLY double aerial you if the first aerial with the cat crits which in arena is like a 1: 1 000 000 chance

 

So there is your consistency. summoners aerial and damage did not change for 3 whole years, so get your facts straight. and warlocks aerial was way too OP so it got nerfed.

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10 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

they did not nerf the aerial damage output. also summoenrs aerial is the same it was since 3 years.Warlocks could double aerial you with ease, thats what got nerfed they cant do that so easily anymore, warlocks second aerial is like thye summoners and depends on crits.

as for summoner, he can ONLY double aerial you if the first aerial with the cat crits which in arena is like a 1: 1 000 000 chance

 

So there is your consistency. summoners aerial and damage did not change for 3 whole years, so get your facts straight. and warlocks aerial was way too OP so it got nerfed.

When warlocks were able to double aerial their dmg  could do around 70-80% of your hp. And you said it was too OP so it got nerfed.

Summoners can deal around 70-80% of your hp in 1 aerial or 100%-0 you if they get lucky in an aerial. What is the difference between warlock and summoner? If they both did same thing, why is warlock broken but summoner ok?

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Grimoir   
1 hour ago, Adrian Stormrage said:

When warlocks were able to double aerial their dmg  could do around 70-80% of your hp. And you said it was too OP so it got nerfed.

Summoners can deal around 70-80% of your hp in 1 aerial or 100%-0 you if they get lucky in an aerial. What is the difference between warlock and summoner? If they both did same thing, why is warlock broken but summoner ok?

Becayse warlocks double aerial was a instant win in arena, not just 70-80% hp. thats the reason it got nerfed. summoners never changed in the past 3 years. if you get caught in the serials thats your own fault, learn from it accept the defeat and get better.I would suggest you stop crying about such abilities which all classes have and get gud in pvp. i swear they should make arena locked until certain conditions are met.

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50 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

Becayse warlocks double aerial was a instant win in arena, not just 70-80% hp. thats the reason it got nerfed. summoners never changed in the past 3 years. if you get caught in the serials thats your own fault, learn from it accept the defeat and get better.I would suggest you stop crying about such abilities which all classes have and get gud in pvp. i swear they should make arena locked until certain conditions are met.

They weren't dealing 100% dmg in aerial and it was also easier to tab before getting aerialed. They were dealing very similar damage to what summoners are doing now.

 

Also how good do I need to get? Do I need to be top 5 to have the right of crying about abilities? I can't for the life of me understand how you think summoner damage output during aerial is fine.

 

DxARLLE.jpg

 

 

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4 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Becayse warlocks double aerial was a instant win in arena, not just 70-80% hp. thats the reason it got nerfed. summoners never changed in the past 3 years. if you get caught in the serials thats your own fault, learn from it accept the defeat and get better.I would suggest you stop crying about such abilities which all classes have and get gud in pvp. i swear they should make arena locked until certain conditions are met.

And the summoner aerial doesn't almost guarantee you the win? And stop saying summoner hasn't changed. Have you been following the patch notes? It's like you haven't been reading my post either.

Just like you said about arena, I believe there should be conditions for allowing people to speak about arena PvP on the forums as you obviously do not have a clue and keep spreading misinformation.

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Grimoir   
4 hours ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

And the summoner aerial doesn't almost guarantee you the win? And stop saying summoner hasn't changed. Have you been following the patch notes? It's like you haven't been reading my post either.

Just like you said about arena, I believe there should be conditions for allowing people to speak about arena PvP on the forums as you obviously do not have a clue and keep spreading misinformation.

I am not saying "summoner hasnt changed" i am talking purely about the aerial.  Point i am making is you can get out of the aerial if you time it right, and the fact that PVP in this game is very ping reliant is no secret. People should stop complaining about PVP if their own ping is the issue.

 

But if you want to complaina bout aerials for summ and wrlock, lets complain about the equivalents other classes have, stun locks etc... and yes i am following patch notes since its for a class i play., are oyu following them cause it seems you dont.

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9 hours ago, Grimoir said:

I am not saying "summoner hasnt changed" i am talking purely about the aerial.

False Idols summoner changes:

NSOrHiV.png

 

Warden's Fury summoner changes:

L8LCI3W.png

 

As you can see from the False Idols patch, the Uppercut (V) speed got increased so it launches people in the air faster. Now combine this change with the Lunge (Tab) change from Warden's Fury and you get Warlock 2.0 aerial launch. You have no time to escape, no matter what ping you have. I'm not sure if you're able to escape C -> V with a good enough ping, but this whole problem started when the V cast speed got increased, in the False Idols patch. 

 

9 hours ago, Grimoir said:

But if you want to complaina bout aerials for summ and wrlock, lets complain about the equivalents other classes have, stun locks etc

You cannot say that unescapeable aerial launches and stun locks are equivalent. Once you've been launched in the air, you WILL take damage until the aerial ends, no matter if you have your escapes available or not. However, you CAN use your escape(s) to escape the damage from stun locks.

 

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Also, I forgot to post the Eternal Night patch changes.

CLEkfwp.png

 

The projectile travel speed normalization for Rumblebees is also a buff to Summoner's aerial damage. They will get more overall damage during an aerial as they don't have to be at the minimum possible distance all the time to deal maximum damage.

As you can see, Summoner kept getting buffed every patch and it eventually led to its current state with the broken aerial that it has today. Like I said earlier, the devs need to better think about things like this when they buff/nerf a class.

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1. Projectile speed normalization is a nerf because it's like if you were every time at 16 meters even if you are at 1 meter, not a boost as you suggest.

2. Warden's patch about Lunge (Tab) is a PvE boost and PvP nerf. Nobody in arena needs double stun. The second stun like before was more useful for PvP especially if enemy F rolled "automatically" during the first stun.

3. Rumblebees during Petal Storm Moss has been nerf, once a time, because 100-0 was real during several months after the introduction of Petal Storm Moss.

 

We are far than the "3 years of untouched class".

 

In your video, the problem is that the Summ prefers to use PvE rumblebees (Move 1) instead of PvP rumblebees (Move 3). I personnally use Move 1 too because it does more damages than Move 3. That's kinda stupid and they could work on this... but meh.

Edited by Gigowatt221

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6 minutes ago, Gigowatt221 said:

1. Projectile speed normalization is a nerf because it's like if you were every time at 16 meters even if you are at 1 meter, not a boost as you suggest.

Upon looking into it further, it appears you are correct. My bad then, so that point is wrong.

 

7 minutes ago, Gigowatt221 said:

2. Warden's patch about Lunge (Tab) is a PvE boost and PvP nerf. Nobody in arena needs double stun. The second stun like before was more useful for PvP especially if enemy F rolled "automatically" during the first stun.

Sure, the old Lunge with separate stuns on the 2nd and 4th hit would have been more useful if the first one hit into an iframe. However, it is a pvp buff as the cat didn't stun you on the very first hit before, so you did have a slightly larger window of time to react. The Lunge change definitely plays a role in the unescapeable aerial launch though. The Lunge -> V aerial launch is much faster, due to Lunge stunning on the first hit and the increaed V cast speed.

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LuIius   

@Adrian Stormrage hello again! met you in arena the other day. I'm affraid there's little you can do against this, I have the same issues myself, I usually get around 100 ping, 80 on a good day, however that is not enough to tab escape their stun unless I'm literally holding the key down before I even get stunned, so unless you're fine with losing your ice tab whenever it's up have fun losing to gunners & sums .)

 

and the bs Grimoir is spreading is not to be believed, as someone else said above, summoners air launch speed was buffed making it harder to tab. at this point you have to largely outskill the summoner & make sure to not get caught in the first place. I recommend saving your E for after they put down their field of anti-fun that disables half your skills.

 

honestly, you're probably more capable of thinking up a solution yourself than any of the forum dwellers are, perhaps you could ask a higher ranked kfm? I don't know them personally but you have a higher chance with them than the bns official forums .) either way I don't think there even is a solution except "move to Germany lol" or just get insanely good at the game & mange to dodge all their guard breaks, aids fields and ccs for 3 minutes straight.

 

you could also emply the tactics bms use where they spam block & cancel, ik it doesn't work for kfm but perhaps you could mind game with your counter?

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LuIius   
18 hours ago, Gigowatt221 said:

1. Projectile speed normalization is a nerf because it's like if you were every time at 16 meters even if you are at 1 meter, not a boost as you suggest.

2. Warden's patch about Lunge (Tab) is a PvE boost and PvP nerf. Nobody in arena needs double stun. The second stun like before was more useful for PvP especially if enemy F rolled "automatically" during the first stun.

3. Rumblebees during Petal Storm Moss has been nerf, once a time, because 100-0 was real during several months after the introduction of Petal Storm Moss.

 

We are far than the "3 years of untouched class".

 

In your video, the problem is that the Summ prefers to use PvE rumblebees (Move 1) instead of PvP rumblebees (Move 3). I personnally use Move 1 too because it does more damages than Move 3. That's kinda stupid and they could work on this... but meh.

what makes a skill pve & pvp? what the devs intended or what is actually more effective? also, I'm not 100% sure but I believe the lunge change made the cat stun their target quicker than the old version where you'd know you were about to be stunned a frame or two before you actually got stunned, leaving more room for counter play before they aired you.

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What making a skill PvE or PvP is basically if it pierce parry (not relevant here) AND if it does more damages AND/OR consumes less focus during CC/Aerial/Grab. With this definitiion Move 3 should be PvP because it free to cast and does more damages during CC/Aerial while Move 1 doesn't and consumes 3 focus (which is a lot for PvP).

But I admit that for Wind Summ it's a fail. I personnally use Move 1 too in arena. Awakening patch will certainly rebalance this because the boost of PvE Rumblebees is based on stack and no more on a 3 seconds buff, which sounds clearly more PvE oriented.

Edited by Gigowatt221

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