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TOI: Floor 1000, Trial Arena: 100 stages. New badges


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TOI isn't a tower of infinity anymore. The final floor has been attainable for well over a year. The allure of climbing floors which made this content interesting is long gone. Likewise, trial arena needs a similar update.

 

While we're at it, make new badges for class balancing (some classes outdps others by way too much, others needs some serious QOL changes). It doesn't even have to be a new concept necessarily, but a buffed version of old badges. (e.g I still insist on a destroyer primal force, eternity badge 2.0 with 8s of wrath vs 3s)

Make the tokens for new badges post-floor 100, so they will be rare and exciting to attain!

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20 minutes ago, HateMe said:

Hell No. Plus the devs did metnion in their producer letter they are / will be looking at DPS overall across all classes to normalize it.

Hopefully favouring the melees as the classes that are in the immediate danger zone more.

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They nerfed ToI rewards not long ago, this points to their position being that it is old content, that is becoming increasingly regarded as obsolete, not that they have an intention, or desire to expand it. You know what though, good riddance to it, I hate that bloody hell hole, and so do many others.

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Looks like I'm in the minority, I found it quite fun, just not challenging enough. Getting rank one is gear and technique check, not what I call a challenge.

 

If they decide to trash old content instead of recycling, I'll just agree to disagree with the developers and continue playing until they deplete all interesting content.

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7 hours ago, DevilTDriver said:

Looks like I'm in the minority, I found it quite fun, just not challenging enough. Getting rank one is gear and technique check, not what I call a challenge.

If you want a challenge, play a different game. Nothing in this game is challenging/difficult, people just keep confusing something being challenging/difficult, with being punishing, or broken, not just in this game, but in many others as well. If something is difficult, then mistakes will just prolong the fight, keep making mistakes, and it will either never end, or you'll eventually run out of health. Instead with this game, and other punishing games, there can be an abundance of cases where even just one, or two mistakes can mean the end of the fight, as you, or the whole team/raid are dead. The difference is degree, if it's difficult, it will give you more of a chance to learn what you did wrong, with something that's punishing, it could happen so quickly, you don't know what you did wrong, which is why something punishing like this has so many guides on content, especially when the mechanics of the game can be so unintuitive.

 

ToI falls under the category of broken, what with the AI controlled player characters being able to read you commands the moment you make them, block perfectly, even when you're invisible, ignore cool downs on at least some skills, and so on. People have been complaining about the broken mobs there since it was first introduced, and you still routinely see people start threads to complain about them. On the other hand, if you're so over geared that you can kill them in seconds, to even just one hit, then it's all pretty easy, just like everything else in the game. So if you think you're just sooo strong that it it doesn't pose a "challenge," and you're one of those masochists that like ToI, then just use weaker equipment, there, problem solved.

 

7 hours ago, DevilTDriver said:

If they decide to trash old content instead of recycling, I'll just agree to disagree with the developers and continue playing until they deplete all interesting content.

Are you new here? They've been tossing content aside after it is regarded as obsolete for a long time. Most of the content in the game is now regarded as junk they don't want us to engage in, as most of the content earlier than Act VII has been nerfed into the ground in their stated efforts to "encourage" people to do higher content.

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19 hours ago, MassiveEgo said:

Hopefully favouring the melees as the classes that are in the immediate danger zone more.

From what i understood from it they are trying to even out the dps among classes so you wont have classes with insane burst, all dps will be more equally spread.

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11 hours ago, Why Bother said:

If you want a challenge, play a different game. Nothing in this game is challenging/difficult, people just keep confusing something being challenging/difficult, with being punishing, or broken, not just in this game, but in many others as well. If something is difficult, then mistakes will just prolong the fight, keep making mistakes, and it will either never end, or you'll eventually run out of health. Instead with this game, and other punishing games, there can be an abundance of cases where even just one, or two mistakes can mean the end of the fight, as you, or the whole team/raid are dead. The difference is degree, if it's difficult, it will give you more of a chance to learn what you did wrong, with something that's punishing, it could happen so quickly, you don't know what you did wrong, which is why something punishing like this has so many guides on content, especially when the mechanics of the game can be so unintuitive.

 

ToI falls under the category of broken, what with the AI controlled player characters being able to read you commands the moment you make them, block perfectly, even when you're invisible, ignore cool downs on at least some skills, and so on. People have been complaining about the broken mobs there since it was first introduced, and you still routinely see people start threads to complain about them. On the other hand, if you're so over geared that you can kill them in seconds, to even just one hit, then it's all pretty easy, just like everything else in the game. So if you think you're just sooo strong that it it doesn't pose a "challenge," and you're one of those masochists that like ToI, then just use weaker equipment, there, problem solved.

 

Are you new here? They've been tossing content aside after it is regarded as obsolete for a long time. Most of the content in the game is now regarded as junk they don't want us to engage in, as most of the content earlier than Act VII has been nerfed into the ground in their stated efforts to "encourage" people to do higher content.

I don't see how your definition of difficulty makes sense. If messing up a mechanic just means to prolong a fight, that actually makes it easy, but time consuming. If it prolongs it where it never ends, that a soft enrage.

 

I don't have a problem with the AI having perfect reflexes, having pvp knowledge, you learn to work around it. As for the ignoring cooldowns, maybe happens to others, but I haven't had that been an issue. Everytime I've had a hard time is because I've made a mistake. You do have a point though and that does need to be fixed.

Wearing lower gear for TOI doesn't interest me, the idea of getting higher floors was to get higher ingame rewards in proportion to your gear.

 

Not new here, don't make assumptions. I realize that is the trend, but I'm still allowed to have my opinion. It's not like the new content is more fun than the old content. The way I see it, not having scalable old content seems like a big waste of download space when only 10% of the content is relevant.

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4 hours ago, DevilTDriver said:

1. I don't see how your definition of difficulty makes sense. If messing up a mechanic just means to prolong a fight, that actually makes it easy, but time consuming. If it prolongs it where it never ends, that a soft enrage.

 

2. I don't have a problem with the AI having perfect reflexes, having pvp knowledge, you learn to work around it. As for the ignoring cooldowns, maybe happens to others, but I haven't had that been an issue. Everytime I've had a hard time is because I've made a mistake. You do have a point though and that does need to be fixed.

Wearing lower gear for TOI doesn't interest me, the idea of getting higher floors was to get higher ingame rewards in proportion to your gear.

 

3. Not new here, don't make assumptions. I realize that is the trend, but I'm still allowed to have my opinion. It's not like the new content is more fun than the old content. The way I see it, not having scalable old content seems like a big waste of download space when only 10% of the content is relevant.

1. All messups should result in death imo;

2. There is a problem with AI having perfect reflexes and that's how TOI bots above certain floor have their skill off CD pretty much at all times. The only reason ToI 100 is cleared, is cause there are people who can murder these bots in a one CC chain, two at most if they can survive that long. Bots are relentless and when they can perfectly iframe anything and everything you throw at them past the very first CC chain, you are dead. It's absurdly hard to beat top floor bots with perfect ping, now amp the ping to the average in eu - 150-200ms. Do you remember how floors above 40 were taboo back when ToI just released? That is a clear indicator to the absurdity of the cheaty bot gameplay. You had to have super gear to dent them down before they take you out. If you scale the content up so bots on floor 100 can't be killed with ultimate skills or in one CC chain, they'll again become unkillable;

3. I agree. Old content should have a base mob stats and then extras that get added based on groups overall gear score. This would effectively put all the old dungeons back on the target spectrum. Now if we toss in rewards scaling together with the difficulty scaling, we might have an awesome dungeon segment in this game;

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40 minutes ago, MassiveEgo said:

1. All messups should result in death imo;

2. There is a problem with AI having perfect reflexes and that's how TOI bots above certain floor have their skill off CD pretty much at all times. The only reason ToI 100 is cleared, is cause there are people who can murder these bots in a one CC chain, two at most if they can survive that long. Bots are relentless and when they can perfectly iframe anything and everything you throw at them past the very first CC chain, you are dead. It's absurdly hard to beat top floor bots with perfect ping, now amp the ping to the average in eu - 150-200ms. Do you remember how floors above 40 were taboo back when ToI just released? That is a clear indicator to the absurdity of the cheaty bot gameplay. You had to have super gear to dent them down before they take you out. If you scale the content up so bots on floor 100 can't be killed with ultimate skills or in one CC chain, they'll again become unkillable;

3. I agree. Old content should have a base mob stats and then extras that get added based on groups overall gear score. This would effectively put all the old dungeons back on the target spectrum. Now if we toss in rewards scaling together with the difficulty scaling, we might have an awesome dungeon segment in this game;

1. Hard mode dungeons and our raids do a good job of that I'd say.

 

2. Nope, I can dance around with the bots for the full 4 minutes if I wanted to lol. Clearing them in a CC chain just means speed. This is coming from someone that's very well geared though, if you do it in pve gear, sure you can say that.

 

3. That makes two of us.

How they scale up is the question. One idea I propose is to have a difficulty slider from HM level 1-25, except the floor is not 1, but the current dungeons difficulty. Have this difficulty slider exclusive to hard mode, re-enable hard mode from Lair up (or straight up all dungeons no problem with that either :p).

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On 8/11/2018 at 10:58 AM, DevilTDriver said:

I don't see how your definition of difficulty makes sense. If messing up a mechanic just means to prolong a fight, that actually makes it easy, but time consuming. If it prolongs it where it never ends, that a soft enrage.

 

On 8/11/2018 at 3:57 PM, MassiveEgo said:

1. All messups should result in death imo;

So you're both masochists then. Like I said, the difference is in degree, if the fight is just abruptly ended if you, or possibly anyone else makes maybe even one mistake, then it makes it far harder to learn from your mistakes, also in either case you'd still need to do things properly consistently to win, so you can't say doing it that way makes the fight easier, when you won't win either way if you keep messing up.

 

Also "all messups should result in death imo" is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen anyone say on these forums. VERY few, if anyone outside of the most hardcore masochists would be able to put up with that for long, and even they would surely give up in time, as it'd be beyond frustrating, and make the game unplayable. Think about it, do you honestly think that especially this impatient, elitist community would ever put up with such a thing? One person in a team/raid makes one mistake, and the whole group wipes. Even if it was made towards the individual, that'd still make for very short fights, as nobody is perfect, so people would be quickly falling like flies from very early into the fight. Once the tank is down, and especially as people love to start fights before the tank has a full hold of agro, the boss would be quickly bouncing between players, each would make a mistake, each are now dead, and maybe just a few seconds after the start of the fight, the team/raid is now dead.

 

 

On 8/11/2018 at 10:58 AM, DevilTDriver said:

I don't have a problem with the AI having perfect reflexes, having pvp knowledge, you learn to work around it. As for the ignoring cooldowns, maybe happens to others, but I haven't had that been an issue. Everytime I've had a hard time is because I've made a mistake. You do have a point though and that does need to be fixed.

They have beyond perfect reflexes, after a point, if you can't kill them while they are stunned, or what not, you won't win, some are just worse than others. For cool downs, take the classes that have a block skill as an obvious example. The block skill always has a cool down, and blocking is cancelled if you move, yet the mobs you fight in there can move, while blocking, as they have no cool down on their block skill, allowing them to rapidly alternate between moving, and blocking.

 

On 8/11/2018 at 10:58 AM, DevilTDriver said:

Wearing lower gear for TOI doesn't interest me, the idea of getting higher floors was to get higher ingame rewards in proportion to your gear.

Functionally, what you say you're asking for is the same thing, so since you don't want to do that, then what you're asking for has nothing to do with you wanting a "challenge," or what not.

 

On 8/11/2018 at 10:58 AM, DevilTDriver said:

Not new here, don't make assumptions. I realize that is the trend, but I'm still allowed to have my opinion. It's not like the new content is more fun than the old content. The way I see it, not having scalable old content seems like a big waste of download space when only 10% of the content is relevant.

That's what they do, and that's what they've been doing for a long time, which is why I said that, as anyone that has been playing for any real amount of time would be very much aware of that. As the major bulk of the content they make is targeted at groups, not solo play, if they want that content playable, it needs to have enough people looking to do it. If they made all content relevant by making it scale to the group, or whatever, players would be so spread out over the available content, it would be far, far, far harder to get a team for anything. That's likely the main, to only reason why they keep making older content obsolete, so the player base is more concentrated in a smaller amount of content.

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49 minutes ago, Why Bother said:

1. So you're both masochists then. Like I said, the difference is in degree, if the fight is just abruptly ended if you, or possibly anyone else makes maybe even one mistake, then it makes it far harder to learn from your mistakes, also in either case you'd still need to do things properly consistently to win, so you can't say doing it that way makes the fight easier, when you won't win either way if you keep messing up.

 

2. Also "all messups should result in death imo" is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen anyone say on these forums. VERY few, if anyone outside of the most hardcore masochists would be able to put up with that for long, and even they would surely give up in time, as it'd be beyond frustrating, and make the game unplayable. Think about it, do you honestly think that especially this impatient, elitist community would ever put up with such a thing? One person in a team/raid makes one mistake, and the whole group wipes. Even if it was made towards the individual, that'd still make for very short fights, as nobody is perfect, so people would be quickly falling like flies from very early into the fight. Once the tank is down, and especially as people love to start fights before the tank has a full hold of agro, the boss would be quickly bouncing between players, each would make a mistake, each are now dead, and maybe just a few seconds after the start of the fight, the team/raid is now dead.

1. Hardly a masochist, I just want to see more mechs which require teamwork and are really punishing if not done properly. That will stop people from relying on getting carried all the time. It's seriously unfair how most dungeons have like two "roles" for most of their segments, while the rest of the group can just derp and do whatever as long as their dps isnt 0/s. When I say all messups, I talk strictly about mechanics that involve the entire party, not the usual boss movements that the tank facerolls;

 

2. So in your opinion, it's okay to be asinine when it comes to mechanics, but it's totally not okay to die due to being asinine? This makes for a really dull experience.

On the point you made about community being impatient, elitist and not acknowledging the combat pecking order, that's a problem for us to fix, not for the game to account for. We can't point the finger at NC for issues that we ourselves create;

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7 hours ago, Why Bother said:

So you're both masochists then. Like I said, the difference is in degree, if the fight is just abruptly ended if you, or possibly anyone else makes maybe even one mistake, then it makes it far harder to learn from your mistakes, also in either case you'd still need to do things properly consistently to win, so you can't say doing it that way makes the fight easier, when you won't win either way if you keep messing up.

Also "all messups should result in death imo" is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen anyone say on these forums. VERY few, if anyone outside of the most hardcore masochists would be able to put up with that for long, and even they would surely give up in time, as it'd be beyond frustrating, and make the game unplayable. Think about it, do you honestly think that especially this impatient, elitist community would ever put up with such a thing? One person in a team/raid makes one mistake, and the whole group wipes. Even if it was made towards the individual, that'd still make for very short fights, as nobody is perfect, so people would be quickly falling like flies from very early into the fight. Once the tank is down, and especially as people love to start fights before the tank has a full hold of agro, the boss would be quickly bouncing between players, each would make a mistake, each are now dead, and maybe just a few seconds after the start of the fight, the team/raid is now dead.

They have beyond perfect reflexes, after a point, if you can't kill them while they are stunned, or what not, you won't win, some are just worse than others. For cool downs, take the classes that have a block skill as an obvious example. The block skill always has a cool down, and blocking is cancelled if you move, yet the mobs you fight in there can move, while blocking, as they have no cool down on their block skill, allowing them to rapidly alternate between moving, and blocking.

Functionally, what you say you're asking for is the same thing, so since you don't want to do that, then what you're asking for has nothing to do with you wanting a "challenge," or what not.

That's what they do, and that's what they've been doing for a long time, which is why I said that, as anyone that has been playing for any real amount of time would be very much aware of that. As the major bulk of the content they make is targeted at groups, not solo play, if they want that content playable, it needs to have enough people looking to do it. If they made all content relevant by making it scale to the group, or whatever, players would be so spread out over the available content, it would be far, far, far harder to get a team for anything. That's likely the main, to only reason why they keep making older content obsolete, so the player base is more concentrated in a smaller amount of content.

1. Messing up a mechanic, which prolongs a fight is basically what normal mode is. You lose out on a bit of mech damage, but the fight goes on. Choosing to run a hard mode dungeon where the same mechanic wipes you is not what I consider masochist. Also it's not as polarized as what you describe. Some of the mistakes done in raids and hard mode dungeons are not always instant wipes, but salvageable if you coordinate compensation with the team.

 

2. If you're suggesting I'd be interested in extreme mode where one tiny misclick is an instant wipe, no that would not interest me. I'm content with the difficulty of hard mode dungeons and raids.

 

3. Yeah that's what people do in high elo pvp, if you don't kill them in a stun lock you get punished, personally I'm fine with that. We can suggest an easy mode TOI if that's what interests people like that. The bugged skills are annoying, think everyone agrees on that and it should be fixed.

 

4. If I wanted to gimp my gear and do that, I'd do it already. So the developers should never develop challenging content, just leave it up to the players to play with baleful instead of raven?

I think the majority of people who play video games when given the option would prefer a Newgame+ over playing over again with gimped gear. People like the feeling of that "oomph". Reducing my gear isn't the same because I lose my rotation and weapon procs which affect my gameplay.

 

5. That's why I'm making a suggestion. Who's to say they will go on that direction indefinitely. A game can evolve.

No having more content spread out does not mean it'll disperse the population.  It only adds variety to the gameplay. If you look at F8, you see the same dungeons posted over and over. It is not my idea of entertainment to do the same dungeons all the time. The daily challenge is an attempt at them diversifying what people do everyday.

I've heard from more than one source that people would like nostalgic dungeons like sundered nexus come back.

As for being hard to find groups, I really doubt that's going to be an issue. The rewards on the dungeons can be similar, so it's not like people have to run specific dungeons. Like back in the frozen stinger days, if I couldn't find a Yeti group, I could run Lair, or necropolis for the same resources.

If a certain dungeon is popular, the recruitment messages will naturally gravitate towards it and there will be plenty of parties.

 

Ultimately, the implementation comes down to a popularity vote. If a lot of people think like me, then this idea will be warmly welcomed, if not then good for the status quo players.

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6 hours ago, MassiveEgo said:

1. Hardly a masochist, I just want to see more mechs which require teamwork and are really punishing if not done properly. That will stop people from relying on getting carried all the time. It's seriously unfair how most dungeons have like two "roles" for most of their segments, while the rest of the group can just derp and do whatever as long as their dps isnt 0/s. When I say all messups, I talk strictly about mechanics that involve the entire party, not the usual boss movements that the tank facerolls;

 

2. So in your opinion, it's okay to be asinine when it comes to mechanics, but it's totally not okay to die due to being asinine? This makes for a really dull experience.

On the point you made about community being impatient, elitist and not acknowledging the combat pecking order, that's a problem for us to fix, not for the game to account for. We can't point the finger at NC for issues that we ourselves create;

Aside from what I mentioned, an online game on a whole is a bad place to make a game too punishing, especially something like B&S. Between the poor optimisation of the game, lag/latency always being a factor in online games, and bugs that inevitably come up in longer standing online games in particular, there are many opportunities for you to make what the game would consider a mistake, even though it would not be one of your own making. This is why online games on a whole tend to be more forgiving of errors. If you want some sort of hardcore unforgiving game, you'd be best to play an offline game, that is either a solo game, or one you can play with someone that would be sitting near you. Regarding community issues, many game companies take the initiative to help improve the conduct of players through systems that reward being helpful, punish poor conduct, and reduce the opportunities for people to be a jerk, they could do the same here, but choose not to, so it's not all on the players.

 

 

12 minutes ago, DevilTDriver said:

1. Messing up a mechanic, which prolongs a fight is basically what normal mode is. You lose out on a bit of mech damage, but the fight goes on. Choosing to run a hard mode dungeon where the same mechanic wipes you is not what I consider masochist. Also it's not as polarized as what you describe. Some of the mistakes done in raids and hard mode dungeons are not always instant wipes, but salvageable if you coordinate compensation with the team.

 

2. If you're suggesting I'd be interested in extreme mode where one tiny misclick is an instant wipe, no that would not interest me. I'm content with the difficulty of hard mode dungeons and raids.

 

3. Yeah that's what people do in high elo pvp, if you don't kill them in a stun lock you get punished, personally I'm fine with that. We can suggest an easy mode TOI if that's what interests people like that. The bugged skills are annoying, think everyone agrees on that and it should be fixed.

 

4. If I wanted to gimp my gear and do that, I'd do it already. So the developers should never develop challenging content, just leave it up to the players to play with baleful instead of raven.

I think the majority of people who play video games when given the option would prefer a Newgame+ over playing over again with gimped gear. People like the feeling of that "oomph". Reducing my gear isn't the same because I lose my rotation and weapon procs which affect my gameplay.

 

5. That's why I'm making a suggestion. Who's to say they will go on that direction indefinitely. A game can evolve.

No having more content spread out does not mean it'll disperse the population.  It only adds variety to the gameplay. If you look at F8, you see the same dungeons posted over and over. It is not my idea of entertainment to do the same dungeons all the time. The daily challenge is an attempt at them diversifying what people do everyday.

I've heard from more than one source that people would like nostalgic dungeons like sundered nexus come back.

As for being hard to find groups, I really doubt that's going to be an issue. The rewards on the dungeons can be similar, so it's not like people have to run specific dungeons. Like back in the frozen stinger days, if I couldn't find a Yeti group, I could run Lair, or necropolis for the same resources.

If a certain dungeon is popular, the recruitment messages will naturally gravitate towards it and there will be plenty of parties.

 

Ultimately, the implementation comes down to a popularity vote. If a lot of people think like me, then this idea will be warmly welcomed, if not then good for the status quo players.

  1. Untrue, as you're forgetting about enrage timers.
  2. Then stick to doing those if they suit your preference.
  3. In case you haven't noticed, there's been a never ending series of complaints about battle grounds with all the instant, or near instant kill BS, and the like. Then in fighting games (ex: Street Fighter, King of Fighter, etc...) they tend to put in mechanics so you CAN'T be permanently stunned, juggled, or what not, since people hate that crap, as it doesn't make for a properly competitive situation when it comes down to whoever manages to start their combo first, wins. Yet here you are saying that's fine.
  4. Inevitably, it'd still eventually get to the point it is now, and here you are advocating for a system other games that solely revolve around 1vs1 combat avoid, as people hate it. You have it in your power to arrange things to what you say you want right now, you could fruitlessly ask for extensions to a rather disliked piece of content, but in the meantime, you could make it effectively work the way you say you want it to work, but refuse to do so. Since the introduction of battle grounds people have asked for a balanced version of it, so it's not a playground for whales, and would be at least more a measure of skill. If you truly wanted some challenging mock PvP content, you'd similarly want it balanced, so gear plays no part, yet instead you just want extensions to what we have, with your gear still playing a part. That similarly would make it a playground for the minority of over-geared players.
  5. More group content doesn't spread out the player base, how the heck do you figure that? Let's say a game had a group of one hundred people playing at a given time, if there were just say about five dungeons, and a full group was five people, the wait times between when you'd expect to have a full team would be far shorter than if the game had twenty, or more dungeons. Different people, will want to be doing different dungeons, at different times, and the more dungeons that are available, the more spread out that player base will be, then the longer people will have to wait to get a team for what they want to do, the more annoyed at those wait times they will be. I can't even begin to understand your thinking if you say that obvious fact, wouldn't be true.

    There's other games I've played that for instance when it had a larger player base, it had more individual categories for PvP. Over time as the player base shrank, the wait times to get a round started got longer, and longer, people complained more, and more, then more, and more people started to quit as they didn't like waiting around so long. What some then would do is reduce the number of categories, so more people would be in each group, some also would make it so rounds only happened between various times of the day, so everyone looking to do it would be more concentrated in that way. Similarly with dungeons, while they could have a number of them, only a certain number may be available each day, again so people aren't as spread out between them. How ever you look at it, having more available at the same time just didn't work, as the player base was too spread out.
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1 hour ago, Why Bother said:

 

  1. Untrue, as you're forgetting about enrage timers.
  2. Then stick to doing those if they suit your preference.
  3. In case you haven't noticed, there's been a never ending series of complaints about battle grounds with all the instant, or near instant kill BS, and the like. Then in fighting games (ex: Street Fighter, King of Fighter, etc...) they tend to put in mechanics so you CAN'T be permanently stunned, juggled, or what not, since people hate that crap, as it doesn't make for a properly competitive situation when it comes down to whoever manages to start their combo first, wins. Yet here you are saying that's fine.
  4. Inevitably, it'd still eventually get to the point it is now, and here you are advocating for a system other games that solely revolve around 1vs1 combat avoid, as people hate it. You have it in your power to arrange things to what you say you want right now, you could fruitlessly ask for extensions to a rather disliked piece of content, but in the meantime, you could make it effectively work the way you say you want it to work, but refuse to do so. Since the introduction of battle grounds people have asked for a balanced version of it, so it's not a playground for whales, and would be at least more a measure of skill. If you truly wanted some challenging mock PvP content, you'd similarly want it balanced, so gear plays no part, yet instead you just want extensions to what we have, with your gear still playing a part. That similarly would make it a playground for the minority of over-geared players.
  5. More group content doesn't spread out the player base, how the heck do you figure that? Let's say a game had a group of one hundred people playing at a given time, if there were just say about five dungeons, and a full group was five people, the wait times between when you'd expect to have a full team would be far shorter than if the game had twenty, or more dungeons. Different people, will want to be doing different dungeons, at different times, and the more dungeons that are available, the more spread out that player base will be, then the longer people will have to wait to get a team for what they want to do, the more annoyed at those wait times they will be. I can't even begin to understand your thinking if you say that obvious fact, wouldn't be true.

    There's other games I've played that for instance when it had a larger player base, it had more individual categories for PvP. Over time as the player base shrank, the wait times to get a round started got longer, and longer, people complained more, and more, then more, and more people started to quit as they didn't like waiting around so long. What some then would do is reduce the number of categories, so more people would be in each group, some also would make it so rounds only happened between various times of the day, so everyone looking to do it would be more concentrated in that way. Similarly with dungeons, while they could have a number of them, only a certain number may be available each day, again so people aren't as spread out between them. How ever you look at it, having more available at the same time just didn't work, as the player base was too spread out.

1. Enrage timers are very generous in this game, almost never factors in the difficulty. I've only enraged when I intentionally joined undergeared parties with an undergeared character. Messing up mechanics in normal mode has almost never been the cause of enrage, but rather the team I had during "champ select".

 

(skip)

 

2. There is the tab escape and F roll (some classes have a third trinket), but other than that, you're right about being koed with a cc lock. The pvp style in this game is a matter of taste. I haven't played other fighter games much to really compare, but I enjoy BnS pvp mechanics to a decent level. If it is the case that the majority hates the pvp and TOI by extension, then fair enough that they leave it behind. Still, I want to contest my broader point of scaleable content.

My sentiment here is I really enjoyed this content and liked getting beat by the AI and revising my ways to fight it back in the day where Floor 100 was unattainable; it was truely a tower of infinity. I may be the minority, but this was one of my favorite things to do back then, hoping to relive that nostalgia with FL1000.

 

3. You still failed to convince me to want to gimp my gear. It's not the same, I explained with my newgame+ vs gimp gear point in RPGs. I can only reduce my gear so far before my rotation changes, if I don't reduce it enough I can still manage floor 100. Does seeing big numbers and high floors not mean anything? That's part of what I mean with the oomph factor. If they branded tower of infinity as tower of floor 100, this would put my mind at ease. I would personally as a developer keeping updating it so the final floors isn't attainable with that name of "infinity", it only makes sense.

It may be unlikely it'll be implemented, but I want my feelings heard and it seems fairly simple to add on to this game. I don't see how they have anything to lose, the players that never liked it can ignore it and players like me who are tired of the same floor 100 being irrelevant since VT gear, can experience the nostalgia of when it was a struggle to reach the top.

Battlegrounds does have a relevant audience. I know people who would never play battlegrounds if they gear equalized it because they hate arena style pvp. There's a whole discord I joined dedicated to battleground pvp. Alot of players at one point considered battlegrounds to be the only true endgame content as raids and hard mode dungeons became clockwork to them. This is hardcore content, TOI FL1000, may satiate that same audience.

 

4. Why do you insist that having many dungeons, optional ones at that, will harm the population like that? That's like saying we're at an all you can eat buffet, but you must try one of everything or you can't eat.

The only minor inconvenience I'm seeing is that f8 would have more different dungeons shown in recruitment and you'll have to scroll up to find the one you want. That's assuming people disperse themselves in the manner you speak of. Even then people can use discord to organize such groups in a more convenient manner. Also I mentioned that the dungeons will have mostly the same rewards, it will probably get standardized to which ones people will choose. The unpopular runs can be ran with a nostalgic group of friends.

 

That's pvp content you're talking about. I can see this being an issue for something like battlegrounds, if we had 10 different battlegrounds, with all battlegrounds available the same day and being manually selected. However that's not the case. That's remedied with our current system where we force people to participate in the same battleground types same day.

 

This is dungeons I'm talking about, where we got a substantially larger pve population. If we had a system where we had a rotation on daily challenge as well as bonus reward doing the dungeon on hard mode in proportion to how high you scaled it, I'm willing to bet people would appreciate the change and it would breath life back to PvE. It would make the game more western as opposed to eastern as we aren't doing repetitive motions.

E.G Soguns Lament, x1 moonstone on normal, but if done in hard mode, you get moonstones x the HM level you chose that day, doubling it after HM15, so x30 to encourage mains rather than alt spam.

This will set a focus for people to do a specific dungeon that day, as proven already where there's large participation in daily challenge as it is.

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3 hours ago, Why Bother said:

Aside from what I mentioned, an online game on a whole is a bad place to make a game too punishing, especially something like B&S. Between the poor optimisation of the game, lag/latency always being a factor in online games, and bugs that inevitably come up in longer standing online games in particular, there are many opportunities for you to make what the game would consider a mistake, even though it would not be one of your own making. This is why online games on a whole tend to be more forgiving of errors. If you want some sort of hardcore unforgiving game, you'd be best to play an offline game, that is either a solo game, or one you can play with someone that would be sitting near you. Regarding community issues, many game companies take the initiative to help improve the conduct of players through systems that reward being helpful, punish poor conduct, and reduce the opportunities for people to be a jerk, they could do the same here, but choose not to, so it's not all on the players.

1. Why do you brand failure due to not doing the most basic mechanics "too punishing"? I simply want to see danger. And since this game seems to have a holy solarity, aka tanks running the show when it comes to handling the regular danger source, the danger that would make the experience in dungeons in this game less mediocre, would be to put some damage behind the party mechanics in boss fights. A good example would be how the five hitter at Xanos can leave undergeared players with one slap to the cheek amount of life, leaving little room for mechanical mistakes from that point on for the next 10-15 seconds (the time it takes to replenish the hp pool from zero if you're not absolutely horrible in this game). If we keep promoting mediocrity in the form of no danger dungeons, people will never improve. And if people never improve, they will not be able to enjoy the stuff on the higher end of the dungeon spectrum, where the damage constrains lead to the need of mechanics requiring precise and accurate execution in order to succeed, effectively leading to these people waiting until these dungeons get nerfed mechs. And then people wonder why we get annual topics branded like "this game is ded, lul" or something like that. Ofcourse it will feel that way, when the majority of the playerbase expects a mother hand to guide them through everything that requires more than 90 IQ. And it's not like people are stupid, just lazy. The brain needs stimulation, the lazier it gets, the more overwhelming things seem to be. So I say, put some danger where danger is due and unclog this beast;

 

2. I won't argue technicalities, since latency and fps problems are yet to be solved in NA/EU. Asking for dumb mechs acceptance however, is not really viable. Firstly, we don't have tight region control. The vast ajority of the people who lag to the point of being unable to do mechs, are outside the publishing region. If they can't deal with mechs on 300ms, I don't see how anything changes when they can't deal with harder mechs on 300ms. Different ins and the same out. And taking out the fun for the sake of being inclusive of people who will never truly enjoy this game, is a really stupid thing to do. You can see it in action in here for a long time now. Dumbed down skill trees, easier bosses and now even skill chains are just one slice of the mediocrity cake. Next we just need to get an ultimate skill which can be spammed and we'll have an icing for the PvE cake;

 

3. In regard to the last point you made - I agree to some degree. Humans are lazy by nature, therefore rewarding them for any work they deem "extra", would seem like the obvious solution. Here is the counter point - we are a community. If we can't vet the less experienced players, who can? It's like we have this anti-social doctrine going on. "How to be as withdrawn from the rest of the players as possible", kind of thing. I would put this on the obscurity around the guild system. You can't easily find out info about a guild anywhere. Even in good ol' Lineage 2, you could scout out guild data through various sources. You might need to run a tap on teleport fees, but it's there. Here on the other hand, there's almost nothing from practical standpoint, unless of course you have enough time to datamine.

On the point of the publisher playing police - that kind of regulation is what gets you blacklisted as publisher in the eyes of way too many, to be a viable way of doing things. You never, EVER, entrust a power player with authority. In this case they have it, but they won't use it for the reasons I mentioned above. This playerbase is their livelyhood. Mess with it and suddenly they don't have bread on the table. So it's really not on them but on us, unless they can find an alternative source of income to support their publishing costs, so they are unreliant on the playerbase for money, it will be on us to fix certain aspects of the environment we ourselves create;

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Just make opponent difficulty based on actual player gear level. First 30 floors weaker than you, next 30 same level, next 30 stronger and the rest 10 some special stuff. This will be about skill, and not about gear.

Edited by KzE
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14 hours ago, HateMe said:

TOI spoecifically starts being about geat on floors 880-85+ until then you can easily cheese through it. Plus the lower level oponents are already weaker. The point is the more you gear up the more you progress in the tower. Its not supposed to let you get to floors 70+ instantly you are out of the story with starter gear.

This is the core problem, its scripted for a certain gear.

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21 minutes ago, HateMe said:

thats not a problem thats how the place should be and is. that is the whole idea.

But its a problem. With the current "idea" it should be reworked like 2 times / year. When it was released, the gear difference was very small between players. Now if they buff it, for what level will they aim? TT gear? Either npcs stay at 1 shot level for geared people, or devs exclude a large chunk of playerbase.

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