What do I do with leftover souls and pet auras?

[NorbertTheOpinionated]

Make no mistake, I don't want to sound ungrateful for the item upgrade in terms of the soul upgrade event and the pet aura upgrade event, even though the soul upgrade event was handled horribly with that RNG mechanic, but...

I have a Hongmoon Energy: Stage 7. I also have a Hongmoon Pet aura: Stage 5. Now, I have those items AND a Awakened Ascending Soul, and a Awakened Loyal Hongmoon Pet Aura because the events handed me superior items.

I invested resources into those old items, but I can't have them reverted to get the resources that I invested into them back out of them any further than I already have.

Having invested that many resources into those items makes me feel attached to those items though. I don't see anything I can do with them though. I can't seal them, and give them to an alt unless I upgrade them significantly, so I can't see that as being viable.

So... NCsoft got people to dump a bunch of time and effort into upgrading their pet auras, and souls just to hand us better ones, wasting all the effort poured into those original items. Why did we invest all those resources into the original items?

 

What should I do with these original souls and pet auras? That is my question. What should I do with them? I am asking legitimately. Is there anything logical to do with them somehow, or should I just throw them on the ground because they are taking up inventory space? Doesn't that seem ... really pretty poorly handled? (Note that I have already maxed out my inventory space, so "buy more inventory space so you can hold onto them uselessly forever" isn't something I can do.) Again, not that I am ungrateful for the upgrade, but now, what do I do with the old items? I am asking for a recommendation.

 

[Granger]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb NorbertTheOpinionated:

What should I do with these original souls and pet auras? That is my question. What should I do with them? I am asking legitimately. Is there anything logical to do with them somehow,

Upgrade just one more stage, seal and sell for a nice gold profit.

[NorbertTheOpinionated]

Hmm. That is an idea I had not considered. I COULD upgrade my Awakened Ascending Soul to a True Ascending Soul, sell it, then use the money to bring my old soul (Hongmoon Energy Stage 7) up to True Ascending Soul status so that I am not downgrading myself, but the problem with this is that, currently on the market, True Ascending Souls are going for 7000 gold.

 

In order to do this, I would need to spend 12 Sacred vials to get the Awakened Ascending Soul to True Ascending Soul to upgrade it to the level high enough allowing it to be sealable. Then I would need to Spend another 27 Sacred Vials to get my Hongmoon Energy Stage 7 up to True Ascending Soul, so that I am not downgrading myself. Additionally, I would need 123 gold for the cost of upgrading the Stage 7 to True, and another 32 gold for the cost of upgrading the Awakened to True. On top of that, I would need 4 Brilliant Soul Sealing Charms in order to seal it so that I can sell it, which are 560 Ncoin each (560 Ncoin x 4 = 2240 Ncoin), which is $28 ($0.0125 per 1 Ncoin), and for the record, no you cannot buy Brilliant Soul Sealing Charms for Hongmoon Coin. NCsoft demands that you pull out your credit card, and give them real money, so yes... it is in fact actually $28. No way around it. No you cannot buy Ncoin on the exchange either. If you buy Ncoin on the exchange, it gives you Hongmoon Coin, not Ncoin, and you can only buy Brilliant Soul Sealing Charms for Ncoin.

 

Also let me point out that if you were to buy 2240 Ncoin (the cost of the 4 Brilliand Soul Sealing Charms), and then sell it on the exchange right now, at the current exchange rate, 2240 Ncoin is valued at 1400 gold. (1:1.6 exchange rate at the time of writing this.)

 

SO... That is 39 sacred oils to convert into sacred vials, which is 320 gold each x 39 = 12480 gold.

Plus the 155 gold to actually run the necessary upgrades

Plus 1400 gold worth of Ncoin to buy the Brilliant Soul Sealing Charms to make the item sellable.

 

That is 14035 gold to do what you are suggesting. Then sell the item for 7000 gold, lose 5% on Marketplace taxes (350 more gold), so that would be spending 14035 gold to make 6650 gold for a net loss of 7385 gold.

 

Or... I could throw the old Hongmoon Energy Stage 7 on the ground, and lose 0 gold, and keep my current soul, spend the 12 Sacred Oils (320g each), and upgrade the thing for 3840 gold + 32 for the transaction and be at the same position for 3872 gold worth of resources instead of 7385 gold. I should also point out that I could also, simply, outright buy a True Ascending soul for 7000 gold, which is less than the 7385 it would cost to do what we discussed.

 

It was an interesting suggestion, but when you run the math, I am afraid it does not make economic sense to do that.

 

I do legitimate appreciate the suggestion though. I had not considered it. Any other ideas?

[Granger]

what

 

 

am i missunderstanding or something, i thought you had 2 upgraded souls, one a bit lower only than the one from event? Just use the better one then and you might want to use event oils to upgrade the old one over time to true to then sell/give an alt. If you want gold that is, if not you can just, well, not. 

Unless you already made significant investments into the old soul (which was the impression i got) id just not touch it.

 

Giving it to an alt probably makes the most sense. And yeah, the current soul price is wack. 7k for a true soul goes a bit beyond cheap, id expect it to rise sometime later... used to be like 20k...

 

[SilverFoxR]

Simply put, utilize upcoming events to build up the old souls/auras you have, seal them and either sell them for gold or transfer them to an alt who doesn't have the soul/aura.

 

For the aura especially, it'll probably be pretty useful on the upcoming Warrior class, since their HP is their focus.

[Why Bother]

I just want to point out that given the trend of giving increasingly better souls, and pets over the last two acts, when they were each the most recent ones, I quite expect that Act IX will again provide a higher level soul, and pet as well, possibly/likely about as high as the ones you indicated. I'd also rather expect Act IX to come in Sept., or Oct., so if you were to try to do that sealing thing, that's your deadline most likely, as after that point, their value will likely drop a fair bit.

[NorbertTheOpinionated]

Hmm... any sacred oils / vials I invest into the old soul could also be used to, instead, further upgrade my more upgraded one instead, and since the price of the sacred oils (320 gold) is more than what I would get by pouring the sacred oils into the older less upgraded soul and then selling it, it seems like it would be an inefficient way to make money if I ONLY used sacred VIALS that I earn by my own effort primarily from events to upgrade the less upgraded soul and then sell it, but once again, it seems like a better use of time to just use those sacred vials to simply further my more upgraded soul. That is because it would cost 27 sacred vials to get it up to the level where I could bind it and then sell it... for 7k -5% for taxes, and minus 123 gold more to make it? So 6527 gold profit / 27 sacred vials is valuing each sacred vial at only 241 gold each, when sacred oils (at the time I checked it) were 320 gold each. That is effectively selling 27 sacred vials for about 75% as much as a sacred oil by substitution. Hmm. I guess that is not hideously inefficient, but it isn't really a "good deal." I guess it is an option to consider. Spending those 27 sacred vials on the more upgraded soul instead would push it up the ladder a good deal though, so you have to consider the cost of the opportunity lost as well. The main character would be further behind, and spending that 6527 gold on sacred oils to catch up would only buy 20 sacred oils. So... convert 27 sacred vials into 6527 gold, then use the gold to buy 20 sacred oils, convert them back into sacred vials, then upgrade the more upgraded soul by 20 sacred vials instead of 27? See? That just doesn't make sense to do unless you needed the 6527 gold for some entirely different purpose I suppose. On top of all that, doing something like this is not placing a value on time. The time needed to earn 27 sacred vials is really quite considerable. That same amount of time could have been used to grind in game and earn gold through other methods, such as running 6v6 battlegrounds, using the points to buy boxes, opening them with whirlwind keys, and then selling the moonstones, so there is more opportunity lost which is difficult to place am exact value on.

 

I COULD get the older less upgraded soul up to True Ascending, and then trade it to an alt since selling it is unprofitable unless market conditions change significantly. That would be at least a somewhat cheaper way to get a decent soul to an alt I suppose, though it is still expensive. That is only valid if they don't start handing out higher end souls around the time the new Warrior comes out so that the Warriors aren't eternally behind like "Why Bother" mentioned, which I wouldn't put past NCsoft. That does sound like something that might happen. So then, once again, that suggests that I should just wait and have my welfare legendary items mailed to me rather than spending effort on it, which would save money rather than upgrading the old soul and handing it to an alt. Again, that is only IF something like that happens, so it is purely speculation.

 

On top of all that, I don't even have alts that I play seriously, not because I don't want to, but because I don't have time or desire to keep them upgraded to any decent degree. B&S isn't super alt friendly. Therefore, it is not even a desirable thing to do to spend a massive amount of time and money to get an alt that I don't even play much a decent item only to have it inevitably fall behind.

 

Darn it! I ended up investing resources into a soul AND a pet aura, and it seems like all that time and effort was wasted because I could have just waited, and NCsoft would have just handed me something superior. How could I have known something like this was coming 8 months ago though? I bet there are a lot of people in a similar situation at least somewhat similar right now. BAH!

 

[Granger]

https://media.oglaf.com/comic/trapmaster.jpg

 

of course you're not gonna sell the vials for higher than the oils would, otherwise everyone would just do that (or oil price would rise)... You cant normally make vials into gold so thats your opportunity here to trade time for gold, to upgrade other, perhaps more important items.

[slowcow]

Are you serious with this thread? 

 

This event is not only about you.

This is aimed at new people to help them catch up to vets.

This is aimed at vets to help their alts get an amazing upgrade with out having to spend a ton on yet another character apart from their mains.

This is aimed at anyone who did not have neither an awakened soul or pet aura.

Those items were handed out literally for free, having to put just a little time into the game, like they would anyways.

NCwest is giving us those amazing catch-up events and this is nothing to take for granted. Not only does it benefit literally every existing player but it's also the perfect pickup time for NEW people that the game so desperately needs to keep the flow fresh and game alive.

 

AND THEN THERE IS YOU. Can't think of anyone else but yourself. They literally handed you two items worth more than 10,000 gold and saving you probably 8000 gold, AND YOU STILL COMPLAIN? 

 

You upgraded your old items because you felt the need for it at the time, and they probably server you well and helped you a bunch, so tell me again, how was it a waste of resources?

Now shut this bullshit.

 

And if next time you're so against such handouts, just don't participate? Simple as that. No free item- nothing to complain about.

,

[CorrosionWhite]

15 hours ago, slowcow said:

Are you serious with this thread? 

 

This event is not only about you.

This is aimed at new people to help them catch up to vets.

This is aimed at vets to help their alts get an amazing upgrade with out having to spend a ton on yet another character apart from their mains.

This is aimed at anyone who did not have neither an awakened soul or pet aura.

Those items were handed out literally for free, having to put just a little time into the game, like they would anyways.

NCwest is giving us those amazing catch-up events and this is nothing to take for granted. Not only does it benefit literally every existing player but it's also the perfect pickup time for NEW people that the game so desperately needs to keep the flow fresh and game alive.

 

AND THEN THERE IS YOU. Can't think of anyone else but yourself. They literally handed you two items worth more than 10,000 gold and saving you probably 8000 gold, AND YOU STILL COMPLAIN? 

 

You upgraded your old items because you felt the need for it at the time, and they probably server you well and helped you a bunch, so tell me again, how was it a waste of resources?

Now shut this bullshit.

 

And if next time you're so against such handouts, just don't participate? Simple as that. No free item- nothing to complain about.

,

Did you not read his post at all? He said he was grateful for the upgrades and was looking for ideas on what to do with his now useless items.  Seriously you're flaming on him for NO reason.  He even said multiple times that he was grateful for the events. 

 

And personally, I also wouldn't mind if, after such events as these, that granted upgrades to items we'd already been working on, there was some way to salvage them for maybe half the cost of upgrading it or some other ratio.  I too feel disheartened to have a lvl 8 soul sitting in my bank with nothing justifiable to do with it.  Selling(npcing) it or discarding it seems like such a waste.  I definitely understand where OP is coming from.  Nothing I or the OP said in that regard is complaining about getting free items but simply a sense of dissatisfaction at having nothing to do with the items we've already invested a lot of resources in obtaining.  Also, if you'd read his post all the way through, you would have seen that he was asking for recommendations on what to do with his now useless items which you some how misconstrued into complaining.  If you'd put any thought into it at all, you would have seen that these types of events could easily create a sense of lethargy in the player base about upgrading lower tier items because there is likely going to be an event in the future that gives you a (sometimes)vastly superior upgrade for a fraction of the cost.  And let's not forget the mindset of folks who, at the least, feel irritated that they put a lot of time and effort into upgrading items that were later, for the most part, just given away in an event.  And that perhaps, if they'd put into place some system beforehand that gave people some way of discarding the now useless items in a meaningful way, threads like these could have been avoided.  Honestly you seem to have some kind of tunnel vision going on where you can't look at it from any other perspective and automatically jumped on the 'omg stop complaining about free sht' bandwagon.  I can, unlike you apparently, see it from the other side as well. Where; You just got two superior items for much less than normal so just junk the previous ones and be happy with the cheap upgrade.  And I can understand that perspective and sure as hell am not going to completely disregard it just because my own opinions are more in line with the former.  Which is exactly what you're doing by downgrading what he said as complaining.

 

And maybe next time you could actually read the post wholly and outside of your tunnel before throwing on your justice cape.  You have a very appropriately chosen moniker.

[slowcow]

18 hours ago, CorrosionWhite said:

Did you not read his post at all? He said he was grateful for the upgrades and was looking for ideas on what to do with his now useless items.  Seriously you're flaming on him for NO reason.  He even said multiple times that he was grateful for the events. 

 

And personally, I also wouldn't mind if, after such events as these, that granted upgrades to items we'd already been working on, there was some way to salvage them for maybe half the cost of upgrading it or some other ratio.  I too feel disheartened to have a lvl 8 soul sitting in my bank with nothing justifiable to do with it.  Selling(npcing) it or discarding it seems like such a waste.  I definitely understand where OP is coming from.  Nothing I or the OP said in that regard is complaining about getting free items but simply a sense of dissatisfaction at having nothing to do with the items we've already invested a lot of resources in obtaining.  Also, if you'd read his post all the way through, you would have seen that he was asking for recommendations on what to do with his now useless items which you some how misconstrued into complaining.  If you'd put any thought into it at all, you would have seen that these types of events could easily create a sense of lethargy in the player base about upgrading lower tier items because there is likely going to be an event in the future that gives you a (sometimes)vastly superior upgrade for a fraction of the cost.  And let's not forget the mindset of folks who, at the least, feel irritated that they put a lot of time and effort into upgrading items that were later, for the most part, just given away in an event.  And that perhaps, if they'd put into place some system beforehand that gave people some way of discarding the now useless items in a meaningful way, threads like these could have been avoided.  Honestly you seem to have some kind of tunnel vision going on where you can't look at it from any other perspective and automatically jumped on the 'omg stop complaining about free sht' bandwagon.  I can, unlike you apparently, see it from the other side as well. Where; You just got two superior items for much less than normal so just junk the previous ones and be happy with the cheap upgrade.  And I can understand that perspective and sure as hell am not going to completely disregard it just because my own opinions are more in line with the former.  Which is exactly what you're doing by downgrading what he said as complaining.

 

And maybe next time you could actually read the post wholly and outside of your tunnel before throwing on your justice cape.  You have a very appropriately chosen moniker.

I can see that both you and the OP are still very new to this game. Well, you're in for a trip. Let me tell you, in this game everything you upgrade and put time into will eventually become worthless and almost free for new players. I've been here for 2 years, I've gone through numerous upgrades and later have developers turn then almost worthless by reducing the upgrade costs immensly. But I wasn't complaining, I upgraded my items fully knowing one day there will be reduction coming, but I needed that upgrade at that moment so I didn't hesitate- and they served me well.

 

See, it's hard to take you seriously if you say you're not complaining, while using words like "useless" and "I've wasted/put so much time into those resources." You're clearly complaining. Trust me I've read the OP's post very clearly and I can understand he's grateful but he's still complaining so it's kind of mixed signals there.

 

Really there's only 2 things he could do with the "useless, wasted mat old items." Either keep them in case he in future seals the superior items and send to his/hers new alt/main and just have a backup in the pocket, OR just simply delete them. It's really that simple! It wasn't necessary to make a thread about this because really, what else can players suggest him? We're not here to make decision for him between those 2 choices, I'm sure the OP is old enough to decide on his own.

 

Lastly, after given the more superior items, OP now came to forums to demand a some sort of system that turns his old "useless" items back into materials? What the hell is he thinking? This game doesen't work like that and never will. Just be happy with what you got and move on. Trash the old items or do what ever, but don't ever expect to recieve superior item and THEN DEMAND a refun for your old ones. Not in BnS.

[Corvenir]

If you don't talk about it then things will never change.

 

The mindset of shut up and accept what's given to you, has always worked out well for games in the long run...

 

GTA: no more mods? People raised a stink got it changed.

Casinofront 2: complained got it changed and got governments involved in game gambling

Destiny 2:...lol "we're listening"

[Dante666]

On 8/13/2018 at 8:29 PM, Corvenir said:

If you don't talk about it then things will never change.

 

The mindset of shut up and accept what's given to you, has always worked out well for games in the long run...

 

GTA: no more mods? People raised a stink got it changed.

Casinofront 2: complained got it changed and got governments involved in game gambling

Destiny 2:...lol "we're listening"

Agreed. If you want to fix a problem, acknowledge it first in public and discuss solutions. People need to talk about it.

[NorbertTheOpinionated]

This "slowcow" guy has his troll stat pretty much maxed out. Just consider everything he says line by line. It is so full of nonsense, and I am not even talking to him right now because a person like this is not able to be convinced of anything other than their own opinion. I just have to point this out because it is too ridiculous.

 

On 8/10/2018 at 8:53 PM, slowcow said:

Are you serious with this thread? 

Yes.

 

On 8/10/2018 at 8:53 PM, slowcow said:

This event is not only about you.

If I believed that this was a problem that only I had, I wouldn't be posting it on the forums. CorrosionWhite pointed out that they too have the same issue, so no. It certainly isn't only about me, but if I only speak in generalized nonsense, then it doesn't offer any specific examples. That is why I used myself as an example - such that I am only calling myself out.

 

On 8/10/2018 at 8:53 PM, slowcow said:

Those items were handed out literally for free, having to put just a little time into the game, like they would anyways.

No, actually they were not "literally for free." The soul item took quite a bit of time investment. A lot of people didn't succeed in earning them before the timer ran out. Did you miss the giant storm of hate for NCsoft across multiple threads about people who weren't able to get the soul item because their character wasn't 1.1k AP, and thus couldn't get parties to go to Irontech forge, or Ebondrake Lair, so they couldn't earn the amount of stuff they needed? Some people had a jobs, and had to work so they couldn't put in the time every day needed to earn the items from doing the daily quests. It was a pretty substantial amount of time and effort as well as gold to earn those actually. Numerous people were repeatedly pointing out that they are absolutely not for "free." They were saying, "NCsoft isn't going to hand out something that valuable for such little effort."

 

On 8/10/2018 at 8:53 PM, slowcow said:

Not only does it benefit literally every existing player but it's also the perfect pickup time for NEW people that the game so desperately needs to keep the flow fresh and game alive.

Except that it didn't benefit every existing player because tons of people couldn't get into the dungeons because they didn't have high enough AP to avoid getting kicked, and when a bunch of under geared players tried to do the dungeon, it often times failed, so they couldn't get it done, and were screaming so loudly you could hear them from the moon on the forums about it.

 

Also, it was absolutely not the perfect time to pick up new people because if NCsoft launched the soul hand-out event, and then some person who doesn't play Blade and Soul at all heard about it from a friend and immediately created a new character, by the time they get their character to max level even if they no-life it, they would still be unlikely to be able to get the soul before the timer runs out. On top of that, even if they got their character to 55 in 72 hours or something crazy like that despite having no experience at playing Blade and Soul since you specified that they are "NEW people," that doesn't mean that they would have the experience, and more importantly gear to do something like Irontech Forge, or Ebondrake Lair at the time. Therefore, no, actually it was not a good time to start playing B&S if you were a new player. You would have needed to start playing B&S probably a month or so prior to the event starting to time it properly, but NCsoft didn't announce the details of the event that far ahead of time, so there was actually no way to predict it for a new player to time it properly.

 

Therefore... IF you started a new character for this event and didn't get the soul item, now a ton of the veterans have an awakened soul, and you, as a new, player don't, which actually puts you even further behind the curve because now you need a massive amount of gold or sacred vials just to catch up to everyone else. At this point, unless NCsoft starts handing out legendary souls and pet auras when that new "warrior" class comes out, those people are going to have an absolute nightmare of a time trying to catch up... unless you want to pull out your credit card of course! ... It almost seems intentional doesn't it?

 

On 8/10/2018 at 8:53 PM, slowcow said:

AND THEN THERE IS YOU. Can't think of anyone else but yourself.

Actually, if you consider what I just said, I am not just thinking about myself. I got both the Soul item and the Pet Aura. I am clearly concerned about how other people didn't, as well as future new players, and what that means for them. Sure it affects me in some way too, but other people are in the same situation as I am like CorrosionWhite, and as Corvenir and Dante666 pointed out: the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

 

On 8/12/2018 at 6:25 AM, slowcow said:

I can see that both you and the OP are still very new to this game. Well, you're in for a trip. Let me tell you,

You can't see your hand in front of your face. If you had so much as clicked on my name, you would see that I joined January 15, 2016. Blade and Soul launched in North America on January 19, 2016, so I was here literally before day 1. You joined January 4, 2017. I have been here almost a year longer than you, not that I agree why you decided it was necessary to point that out. The fact that one of us has been playing longer than the other has nothing to do with whether one person's opinion counts more or less than someone else's based on some sort of experience level due to how long you have been playing the game. Sometimes new players have a very valid and useful opinion precisely because they have a fresh perspective. The other guy you criticized: CorrosionWhite joined October 28, 2015, which means they have been with NCsoft longer than NCsoft has had Blade and Soul in North America. HAHA!

 

On 8/12/2018 at 6:25 AM, slowcow said:

I'm sure the OP is old enough to decide on his own.

Honestly? You're going to make an age related comment too? I will add that it is my personal opinion that age has very little to do with maturity or intelligence. Sure, it has something to do with the amount of life experience you have, but there are tons of people who are young that are very mature. There are also tons of people who are old, but act like they have barely graduated high school.

 

On 8/12/2018 at 6:25 AM, slowcow said:

Lastly, after given the more superior items, OP now came to forums to demand a some sort of system that turns his old "useless" items back into materials? What the hell is he thinking? This game doesen't work like that and never will. Just be happy with what you got and move on. Trash the old items or do what ever, but don't ever expect to recieve superior item and THEN DEMAND a refun for your old ones. Not in BnS.

Except that the transmutation system was used to turn the old useless Jewels, and Elements into Legendary Jewels, and Legendary Elements.

Except that there is an "Antique" System that has been used numerous times int he past that was put into place that lets you trade in old items for other items as compensation.

Except that if you have one of those old weapons from the level 45 days, you can salvage it for a better one. That system was added after they put the new upgrade system into place.

Except that they just added a new system literally THIS patch in the patch notes that lets you use old outdated item that occurred due to previous events. Here is the screen shot of the patch notes:

 

 

But NOPE! No sir! "Not in BnS! This game doesn't work like that and never will." *nods convincingly then laughs at the absurdity.*

 

You know, I know that you have been here for 2 years and have all this experience with how NCsoft does things and everything, but ahh...

 

If I may borrow a line from Star Wars: "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong." Not literally every word, but you get the point.

 

 

That link might not work though. Boo.

 

 

 

.

[RavTH]

keep the old pet aura and soul, don't waste your resources on it.

[LoliDolly]

bravo to @NorbertTheOpinionateda lot to read but well said 

[Fieryfly]

why bother with anything..  toss the lower soul on the ground or sell it for 1 c.. otherwise keep it in your bank for an eternity..  you cant break it, u cant combine it.. it will collect dust like the multitude of other totally useless BnS crap you have saved over the last 3 years.. 

[Trilioh]

Agreed.
Didn't read the whole thread but I concur on the general sentiment. 
Either give the old soul/pet some worth or announce officially it well never happen so we can dump it.

More generally speaking, I think all gear should be salvageable for some(!) of what went into it.
If I get the next tier accessory, the old one is trash unless it's level 10 and can be made into a crux. Tough even if it's just level 6, a lot of resources went into it. It feels really wasteful.
That's why I loved that old Hongmoon gear system, where you just kept progressing the same piece.

[Aion2BnS]

Agree with the OP.  It's not like the pets and souls are out dated items. They're items that we were slowly working towards to upgrade. And now with the events they're rendered obsolete it just seems a waste for the effort we've already put into it.

 

That's what I didn't like about Aion. All the enchantments to get decent gear and then rendered useless once you out level them. I liked the old Hongmoon upgrade system in that you knew you had to upgrade existing gear to get to new levels.

 

It would be good if I could transfer existing pets and souls to my alts so they don't feel wasted.