How about new players...

[Granger]

Man if you unironically think HM level matters any... I dont know what to say. 5 ap per HM level. Whop whop super important. 

[Astarae]

It is called a heuristic -- a guidepost.  Never said it was a hard and fast rule.  

 

But if you think they correlate to nothing, you don't get it.  Just like price of a car in 1950 vs. 2018 -- they are not the same, but

compared from lowest to highest & standards of living...there are correlations.  Same with HM (apart from those who've inflated HM for extra points).

 

 

 

 

[YamiKokennin]

The AP recommendation on the Play Infographic is the minimum requirement for a group of 6 who will do *ehem* MECHANIC

Yes, we cleared NS normal before with 800 AP. EC can be cleared with 650+, DT is 700+, You don't need 1.1k AP for NS (back way when MSP was our hardest raid) 

The problem is, there are new people who have 0 clue what to do in dungeon hence most people put 1k+ for NS just so if you fail the mechanic (like lining up the add @ 1st boss), you still have time to kill that thing.

I do not mind low AP group doing EC DT NF NS because, heck, everyone have to start at the bottom somewhere. I even post recruitment for NS asking for just 850+.

I don't mind give new people some leads and info on how to clear -- the basic. However, I would be annoyed if they have low AP and also have the attitude of braindead face tank the boss. Usually, I just let them die.

 

[Granger]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Astarae:

It is called a heuristic -- a guidepost.  Never said it was a hard and fast rule.  

A guide that doesnt adhere to any real metric is a worthless one to follow. You do recognize that its gear that matters, and HM levels got nothing to do with it? Not even with skill, or god forbid, experience. HM level doesnt tell you anything about it. Nothing. Zilch.

 

Its a even more useless metric than AP. 

 

I've 4manned RT, 3 manned HH. Im HM11. 

And unlike what f8 would ask of you for those, im not Aransu 3++ either, just Raven 6. "oh you must've gotten carried" Yeah, carried by the wonderful teamwork I and my friends, all similary geared, have.

 

 

Elitism not based on merit is truly the saddest thing.

[Astarae]

2 hours ago, Granger said:

A guide that doesnt adhere to any real metric is a worthless one to follow. You do recognize that its gear that matters, and HM levels got nothing to do with it? Not even with skill, or god forbid, experience. HM level doesnt tell you anything about it. 

You don't get what a guidepost or indicator is for, do you?  They allow a first stage guess to start with that you can later update.

But like what grade you are in for school -- that doesn't mean much either, but people still wanna know and use things like age as indicators of maturity.  But it's not very accurate.  But don't look for people to stop using it anytime soon.

 

 

[RavTH]

I think with that gear, you wouldn't struggle unless you would find elitists that want to be carried or have fast run, as for ou with no exp and that gear you would have to do some dungeons and understand how your class works and at same time learn rotations of the bosses to repeat the dungeons more often for your draken cores. Which would be almost nearly impossible with todays community in f8...

[KzE]

6 hours ago, Astarae said:

They are MAX level content ... 50 when 50 was top level, 55, now.

Check them in F8 then, it say : lvl50+

 

6 hours ago, Astarae said:

The AP is way off.

Still enough for them.

[Granger]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Astarae:

You don't get what a guidepost or indicator is for, do you?  They allow a first stage guess to start with that you can later update.

I've told you before. For your guidepost to be any useful you need to have a real metric for them. Age does strongly correlate with Maturity, but HM level does not correlate with your gear level and only marginally with your experience.

[Granger]

Repeating "but its a guidepost! Its not meant to be accurate!" ad infinitum is not a argument. And frankly im aphalled you'd think guideposts can be this inaccurate and still be good to follow.

[Raven Freja]

I was in a dungean with BM he told he could not tank he. I  told the party what we should do and I tanked with my destro np.

After the run I asked a Bm I know if he would like to learn the honest person to tank and he used some time to learn him.

Today what person still playing and know how to tank

sometimes ppl  just need some help.

So the not total lost. and gives up. because we stress over everybody talks about DPS and your shitt because you cant make so much DPS

Some classes need more equip to be good, but we cant all be GUN, or tanks.

And all rush for DPS and high gear instead of playing the game, no need to rush you never get to endgame anyway. where will always be a new dungean or raid.

Whats how this kind of games work.

So relax play the game and have fun. And ignore all the shitt talk you sometimes shall here. where are also nice High levls. where now what problems you can have.

Last get a good mentor you can trust and learn of. and later you can learn a green player how to do. and I dont like the word Noobs I use Green or newbies. everybody is noobs where is always 1 where is better.

[Astarae]

On 8/8/2018 at 2:03 AM, Granger said:

I've told you before. For your guidepost to be any useful you need to have a real metric for them. Age does strongly correlate with Maturity, but HM level does not correlate with your gear level and only marginally with your experience.

If you can say that an HM8 is equally likely to have aransu, seraphim or raven class weapons, I'd agree.  But it's not the case.

There is a correlation.  If you are HM8, that correlates with a low likelihood of the person having aransu weapons.

 

If you are 10 years old, you are likely to be in grade school, but could be in high school or college.    People used to get married before age 15.  Now that is unlikely in most western countries.  Age doesn't correlate to maturity for marriage.  There are many examples where age is a poor correlation with maturity based on societal norms or individual variation.

 

Just because you can find exceptions where someone with HM8 has an aransu weapon doesn't mean there is not a correlation.

 

Similarly, in the absence of level inflation due to trove-induced leveling with easy exp-charm availability , someone who is HM20 is unlikely to have a Seriph or Baleful type weapon.  There may be some, but they'd be rare.  That's a fairly strong correlation,

much more so than using age as a measure of maturity.  

 

Reiterating the use of HM as guidepost isn't an argument ad infinitum, when it seems you don't understand that for a guidepost to be useful, you only need show *some* correlation -- not the higher standard of high-correlations I mention above.    Additionally, for something to be a guidepost it needs to be casually visible -- and not require information that you can't see at initial glance.

That HM level is visible is evident in that it is mentioned anytime level is in range 50-55.  That it is a valid correlation device is shown by the above examples.  

 

I wasn't aware that you didn't understand or know the meaning of something being a guidepost.  Mea culpa.

 

I would maintain that HM level is a good 1st indicator until other information is known.  If you have a better one, feel free to suggest one.  If not, it's clear you just want to stop other people using any useful guide or metric, which is unrealistic.

 

[Why Bother]

On 8/7/2018 at 7:11 AM, Chad1123 said:

Why do i need to repeat my self? I said i was totally on your side but if they could had done this changes to improve the game why didn't they done it way before? This forum is for only NA/EU servers that are the pleb copy of the Korean original realease, NCSOFT (asia) will not even mind to hear the opinion of the western playerbase since we are just a littel part compared to eastern part. Yes, they are working on new systems but for the korean game, only God knows how many months we need to wait for that update. Every single patch we had was only a traslation of the new balances and older updates on the korean servers. I agree that the bns community is pretty toxic and i really want a better community but if they can't give us even maintenance in time how they can make big changes if they even don't care. Don't get me wrong i wasn't pessimistic but realistic. I really want this type of changes if they could actually do it.

Again, "if that's your opinion, then why did you even waste your time to make, and respond to a thread like this, as obviously they'll never change anything?" The "reason" against it you gave was basically a blanket response that could be used to supposedly shoot down any suggestion one could make towards any foreign developed game. If you're so confident posting suggestions, and discussing issues that need game changes is a waste of time, then don't even bother making them, or asking for input from others on them, especially if you're just going to use such blanket responses to shoot them down yourself.

[Lyn Thunderfox]

Le 04/08/2018 à 23:43, Chad1123 a dit :

I want to ask you in a hypothetical universe when you just started the game and finished the main story, having no main, no hm coins/nccoins. Witout spending any real money, would u still play this game? Just imagine being a brand new player with Hallow's accesories, squares gems and baleful/seraph 4 or 5... 

Yes I would.

 

The game itself isn't bad, the story is interesting and the classes are enjoyable to play. I do not see why I would play some other game.. especially when most of them are full of rng progression. The progression is longer, but is SECURED. I have no risk breaking my weapon or deleting my soul because I cannot fail my evolution/upgrade, and that's one of the best point this game has. Don't trust failstacks, it's still about going through heavy rng before you even get that '100%' . Anyway, progression is probably the biggest part of the game, and it's fine so Blade and Soul has all my attention.

 

So yeah : a secured game progression 

a well-made story even tho it gets a bit boring past act 4 I admit

a good variety of classes

 

One thing I'd be a bit disappointed as a new player would be that the open world isn't really exploited, which is sad with a world like BnS' one. Make factions great again, make 24-man great again and make field bosses great again. (I actually enjoy wheel of fate bosses while leveling my chars, you meet some people there and that's what a mmo is for, MULTIPLAYER ONLINE.)

[MassiveEgo]

11 hours ago, Lyn Thunderfox said:

Don't trust failstacks, it's still about going through heavy rng before you even get that '100%' .

You don't get 100% with stacks tho. It's much, much lower. Like base chance of 5% and then 15% from 50 stacks or something like that. So on this point I agree, this game has it's progression covered, if we exclude the rng involved into making PTS, which can be equal to the failstacking in you know where, when it comes to upgrade costs.

[KzE]

13 hours ago, Lyn Thunderfox said:

mmo is for, MULTIPLAYER ONLINE

This game turned from classic mmo into a weird 6 man (12man) co-op game after VT release.

[ombremq]

Il y a 15 heures, Lyn Thunderfox a dit :

I do not see why I would play some other game.. especially when most of them are full of rng progression. The progression is longer, but is SECURED. I have no risk breaking my weapon or deleting my soul because I cannot fail my evolution/upgrade, and that's one of the best point this game has. Don't trust failstacks, it's still about going through heavy rng before you even get that '100%' . Anyway, progression is probably the biggest part of the game, and it's fine so Blade and Soul has all my attention...

i prefer fail to upgrade my gear 2 or 3 months then enjoy the game the rest of year than having a "secured" progression game based on a tremondous 1year farm and never see the end...

[Why Bother]

22 hours ago, Lyn Thunderfox said:

I do not see why I would play some other game.. especially when most of them are full of rng progression. The progression is longer, but is SECURED. I have no risk breaking my weapon or deleting my soul because I cannot fail my evolution/upgrade, and that's one of the best point this game has.

Games that have the whole RNG enhancement system don't tend to require you to get that high of an enhancement level, it's just that having a high enhancement level can make a HUGE difference in the power of your equipment, so some will obsess about it, even though the game content wasn't designed around players having such high enhancement levels, as it tends to render PvE content completely trivial if you have such heavily enhanced equipment. Take what was done with EME's NA/EU release of Kritika as an example, elsewhere it has the RNG enhancement system, but in EME's release the RNG enhancement system was removed. Although in doing so, you now effectively must max out the enhancement, to have the same relative strength as in other versions where you have an enhancement level at about the point where it could start to break, as they boosted the strength of mobs significantly in EME's release. By requiring you to enhance your gear to that degree, it's just an added grind to go through in EME's release, that extends how long you must play a given character.

 

Also getting base equipment to enhance can be far, far, easier in those other games you are referring to, as they have a farm, and replace system, with equipment usually becoming bound only after being equipped, rather than a continual upgrade one, where most everything in the process will be bound on receipt. In those other games I find levelling, and gearing up a character to take a small fraction of the time it does here.

 

 

22 hours ago, Lyn Thunderfox said:

a good variety of classes

That you can't really play due to the excessive amount of per character grind, so unless you're a whale, or no-lifer, you can't actually play more than on character, and expect to get too far, as alts are just the slave workforce of your main, not other characters that you actually play. Also there are other games with double, or more classes/characters to play, so the selection is modest, but not too robust when compared to some other games.

 

 

22 hours ago, Lyn Thunderfox said:

One thing I'd be a bit disappointed as a new player would be that the open world isn't really exploited, which is sad with a world like BnS' one. Make factions great again, make 24-man great again and make field bosses great again. (I actually enjoy wheel of fate bosses while leveling my chars, you meet some people there and that's what a mmo is for, MULTIPLAYER ONLINE.)

The game used to make open world, and larger scale content more important, but it's so badly optimised that people constantly complained about the performance when in such content, so now it's just smaller scale instanced content. Stop with this "make ___ great again" bit, you sound like you're just mimicking that buffoon Trump. MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online, as it moved away from the massive part of that, B&S largely stopped being a MMO, even though some will call any online game a MMO these days.

[Lyn Thunderfox]

Each its own, having played two other games based on RNG enhancement, I can personally tell that doing the same grind that BnS offers (killing the same hl mobs, clearing the same area, etc) makes me think more of BnS progression being better than the two other games.

I've played Mabinogi Heroes for 3 years and I've been stucked at the same lvl of enhancement all this time, I cannot see the actual progression to be very honest. In BDO, you're trying to build your character but get unfortunately PK'd by much higher geared than you, veterans claiming spots etc and you cannot defend yourself against those since their gear is obviously much higher than yours. 

 

I don't really understand why I should bother going through rng progression when the method to go through it is exactly the same one that BnS offers minus the RNG. 

 

And even then, the combat which is a good point : there are mechanics on BnS to follow, whereas it's simple mob bashing on BDO. Mabinogi Heroes actually beats both games in terms of combat tho but the rng was really too heavy to handle. Performing well and not getting rewarded really leaves a bad taste of the game.

 

 

PS : when I mean class variety, it's about choosing between those. You're free to either pick 1 or 10, it's not really my concern.

 

[Content moderated]

[KzE]

2 hours ago, Lyn Thunderfox said:

that BnS offers minus the RNG

You have here RNG with the drops. When your element or badge doesnt drops for weeks or months...

[Lyn Thunderfox]

Il y a 9 heures, KzE a dit :

You have here RNG with the drops. When your element or badge doesnt drops for weeks or months...

Because there is no RNG in drops on other games ? :thinking: While you bash mobs on BDO for hours, which is obviously something else than once a week, on Mabinogi Heroes the raids are limited to one /day.

 

Still better than BnS you might say but the drop rate isn't even close to be reassuring either so same stuff everywhere I'd say.

 

 

[KzE]

You stated that bns is free from rng progression, what is not true. Even your soulshield rolls are rng.

 

In Mabinogi Heroes old raids have 5 runs / day. We still have 1 BT / week. 

[Lyn Thunderfox]

 

il y a une heure, KzE a dit :

You stated that bns is free from rng progression, what is not true.

Le 09/08/2018 à 23:51, Lyn Thunderfox a dit :

So yeah : a secured game progression 

Oh ?

 

Secured doesn't mean it's free from any kind of rng. And let's be honest that having "details" being RNG (f.e. soul shields rolls) actually makes the game a bit more grindy and risky. If everything would be 100%, the game would be pretty boring. 

While the ss rolls aren't maxed, you still get a base of certain stats (I have to agree that the BT ss system was way better than VT/TT tho), the bonus of the soul shields is what matters the most and even if you get 5 non-maxed TT pieces against 5 maxed VT pieces, you'll most likely still have an increase in your power. 

 

While I don't want to go to the community argument again, it's also important to say that if only the players would actually bother playing the game instead of being "carried" by gear/op players, it would run smoother for everyone. For example, stop asking Aransu 3 on a raid where you have to obtain this said Aransu weapon.

All I see for now is most of the majority of new players just wait to get carried and veterans are too entitled to themselves awaiting players to "just read guides". You do not know how one actually plays so selling a badge for 3k gold just because you "carried" (and mind it's only about damage, damage that this said newbie would actually most likely deal if he had the same gear as you, don't forget that) is a pretty cheap excuse for veterans to just engulf in their own greed and put a stop to the majority of new players that are just trying to progress.

The same can be said for hard mode dungeons.

/mini rant done

 

Anyway now, when it comes to BT it's still relevant due to elemental accessories. I doubt the majority of the players even own unrefined TT accs right now... whereas old MH raids doesn't drop anything useful other than a bunch of enchant scrolls which are less to be desired compared to the op rank 7-6 ones of the season 3 raids.

Forgot to say that, while BT is relevant, I wouldn't mind to see an increase of 2 raid /week, maybe even VT.

[KzE]

29 minutes ago, Lyn Thunderfox said:

Anyway now, when it comes to BT it's still relevant due to elemental accessories.

Thats why there is no point to using this raid as a timewall for new players.