why are BT & VT runs limited to once/week?

[Astarae]

Why are BT & VT runs limited to once/week?

 

It seems to penalize clans that put together a group to run BT/VT in that any clan with more then 12 people are likely not to be able to run a higher lvl dungeon.  Now it is true that if you are a high enough player you might be able to join a free-formed team.  But have belonged to 3 clans so far and BT/VT have been problems for each in some way.  First clan just plain was too new to have any higher level

characters who could who could mentor or help lower lvl characters lvl up.  It was before most mats could be traded.  Second clan only was new too, but with characters high enough to form a team for VT.  I was too new and didn't feel I could do VT AND 2nd clan required a minimum 500G bid for accessories, which they eventually admitted was to pay for higher level members to come along -- cuz they wouldn't be needed the materials for the most part.

 

Eventually quit cuz they weren't going to change their minimum policy and I found it depressing -- too much like a business.  Now in a 3rd clan -- but am running into the problem of not being high enough level when I first joined (maybe still am not, dunno), but need mats from VT to progress.  Except that now they have a team for VT...and whoever was able to sign up 1st has become part of the "FIXED" team that does VT.  But no one can do another run because of the lockout.

 

So as to not directly subsidize  those who sell "carries" for gold, I'd like to see entry for for higher lvl dungeon remain unlocked by clan -- so they can make a multiple runs if the group is all of the same clan.  Maybe those who have already completed one run wouldn't be eligible for a quest reward, like redoing a normal, non-locking weekly, they'd just get the treasure.   That would, at least, give them some incentive to shepherd a 2nd team of clan mates.

 

As it is now, if a clan only has enough higher lvl members for 1 VT (let alone TT), then any clan size over 12 becomes a penalty.

Don't you have to have >12 to be a high level clan?  It's means if you want to form a higher level clan, you have to enroll more members than you'll be able to support in helping them through higher level dungeons.  That seems like a bad dynamic. 

 

 

[Cor]

If it was not limited you could gear a whole raid in one week...

[Astarae]

Assuming that was true, which I doubt, I would say, so what?  People would still be doing the work. 

Assuming that is true, it simply means you have people that are ready to lvl up their equipment but only being held back by by an artificial time delay. 

 

But it isn't true.  You might get the 1st item of a needed piece of new gear -- but you still have to lvl it up.  That takes collecting materials that are not easily come by.  I've been trying to upgrade some of my items for months but can't due to materials -- mats that don't come from locked dungeons/runs.  Having higher end dungeons unlocked wouldn't make that easier.

 

 

[Ludicium]

MMORPGs survive on what is known as "grinding" - without grinding, endgame for 99% of MMORPGs would not exist, and players would not feel the urge to play their game repeatedly, this is the same case for BnS and is the reason why Raids are locked to a weekly-run. It's to keep players coming back at least weekly, just for that run. If you're unhappy with it, you can always buy resets.

 

Just as you have found out, this system is designed to make you farm for months - to keep you playing for months - there's a reason as to why you can only run the same raid 4 times each month instead of say, every day. Why let, for example, player A get max gear within a month by letting him farm it daily (30 days), when you can make player A to farm it weekly (30 weeks) by locking it to a weekly-basis.

 

It's just how MMORPGs work, if you're running the company, would you want a player to play for 30 days or 30 weeks? I'm sure you'd want the 30 weeks as that keeps your game populated and maybe you can squeeze more money out of the player within those 30 weeks than 30 days.

[Shintensen]

They want us to do ''end game content'' but do not want us to gear fast. With my silly RNG, It took me more 3 months to get my VT badge. 

[Astarae]

7 minutes ago, Ludicium said:

If you're unhappy with it, you can always buy resets.

 

Actually you can' buy it through resets.

 

You can only have a shorter time in acquiring the 1st lvl of new equipment -- the upgrades come from mats that don't come from the locked dungeons.  So your concept that things would be over in 30 days instead of 30 weeks, is fantasy.

 

[Cor]

5 minutes ago, Astarae said:

Assuming that was true, which I doubt, I would say, so what?  People would still be doing the work. 

Assuming that is true, it simply means you have people that are ready to lvl up their equipment but only being held back by by an artificial time delay. 

 

But it isn't true.  You might get the 1st item of a needed piece of new gear -- but you still have to lvl it up.  That takes collecting materials that are not easily come by.  I've been trying to upgrade some of my items for months but can't due to materials -- mats that don't come from locked dungeons/runs.  Having higher end dungeons unlocked wouldn't make that easier.

 

 

So what? You would still have full gear even if it's only on lower lvl. The only really limiting item would be TT wings for ring and earring (vt and bt ones you get plenty nowadays to have enough in a reasonable short timeframe and many people don't even bother to upgrade vt neck anyway because it costs way too much ms and premium stones) which as long as you have enough money you could just trove.

 

A mmo lives from keeping players in the game so obviously having a complete raid equipped too easy is a no-go. If it would be changed that you could enter raids unlimited times they would have to change the droprate from guaranteed to barely existing.

[Astarae]

7 minutes ago, Shintensen said:

They want us to do ''end game content'' but do not want us to gear fast. With my silly RNG, It took me more 3 months to get my VT badge. 

Exactly.  How can you do higher level content if you can't level up your equipment.  Right now, I see being able to do some of their newest dungeons, MAYBE 6 months or more out.  To me, the new dungeons are inaccessible -- it took me 5 months just to upgrade my weapon 1 level, and I might still be waiting if they hadn't made some higher level mats tradeable.

 

 

[Astarae]

2 minutes ago, Cor said:

So what? You would still have full gear even if it's only on lower lvl.

Many of the items at lower lvl have lower stats at low-lvl than previous grade.  You *can't* use them until

you upgrade them without large penalties -- which you would know if you played the game.

 

2 minutes ago, Cor said:

they would have to change the droprate from guaranteed to barely existing.

 

Now I know you're a troll -- current drop rate is FAR from guaranteed.  It took me 2-3 months of regular runs just to get 1st lvl of equipment. 

 

But the current system is already killing off new players -- bid-prices for BT items have dropped to 0 for most items on most runs.  That means few people need them -- because there's not enough feed from new players.  BnS is getting a bad enough reputation that new players are not signing up.  That means they need more money from a shrinking player base to

survive -- up until no one can afford it and they shut down the game.  Then no one has anything.  Is that what you want?

 

Or do you just want to see the death spiral play out faster?

 

They game needs to correct bad dynamics or it won't survive... 

 

You say mmo's need 'grind'... I say too much grind and the game won't survive -- not in a western market anyway.  Westerner's don't have the time to grind for months, so they'll give up a game that take  too much time -- the game

dies.  How fast do you want to see the game die?

 

[Ludicium]

29 minutes ago, Astarae said:

Actually you can' buy it through resets.

You can only have a shorter time in acquiring the 1st lvl of new equipment -- the upgrades come from mats that don't come from the locked dungeons.  So your concept that things would be over in 30 days instead of 30 weeks, is fantasy.

I did not mention once about materials :S I think you must have mistaken me for..well, you, as you're talking about materials - I'm talking about upgrades in general. 

With that being said though, your BT and VT accessories will need a second set to upgrade into Awakening, so, they in fact are locked behind the raids.

Even if you don't want to acknowledge that point, what you said is right, my concept of 30 days instead of 30 weeks is purely fantasy/hypothetical, and is why I said "for example" - it is just purely an example, hypothetical - fantasy - made up scenario =)

 

I however, won't be making any further comments on this post, as I don't see any further benefits of arguing with you. I've already made my points as to why MMORPGs have this lock mechanism, grinding in an MMORPG is essential. If you say that too much grinding is bad for the game also, I'd recommend you dip your toes in some other MMORPGs, like RuneScape, their grind is even more ridiculous - it could take several months to just get 1 max stat/skill - depending on the type of stat/skill.

[Cor]

8 hours ago, Astarae said:

Many of the items at lower lvl have lower stats at low-lvl than previous grade.  You *can't* use them until

you upgrade them without large penalties -- which you would know if you played the game.

Do you even play the game? lvl 3 TT ring/earring has better stats than lvl 10 BT.

8 hours ago, Astarae said:

 

Now I know you're a troll -- current drop rate is FAR from guaranteed.  It took me 2-3 months of regular runs just to get 1st lvl of equipment.

Do you even think before you post? raid bosses drop guaranteed 3 shoulshields and accessory, weapon material or badge. Obviously it's rng which one but it's guaranteed that it does drop. If you could do raids unlimited times it would have to be complete chance that something even drops so a boss could just drop one soulshield or even nothing.

[Astarae]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 4:35 AM, Ludicium said:

I did not mention once about materials :S I think you must have mistaken me for..well, you, as you're talking about materials - I'm talking about upgrades in general.

With that being said though, your BT and VT accessories will need a second set to upgrade into Awakening, so, they in fact are locked behind the raids.

But IME, materials are often a large impediment to upgrading. 

 

As for upgrading to awakened -- I acknowledge that it isn't an issue for any of the vt accessories, nor bt accesories.

Ex: Aransu 9 upgrades directly to next grade 3.

 

There may be some upgrades needing some lower lvl item, but I see items like 'Breeze' being required, that comes from an unlocked dungeon that many can solo.

 

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 4:35 AM, Ludicium said:

I however, won't be making any further comments on this post, as I don't see any further benefits of arguing with you. I've already made my points as to why MMORPGs have this lock mechanism, grinding in an MMORPG is essential.

And of course, BnS must be like every other mmorpg?  Where is that rule written? 

 

It used to be those traveling cross country in the US needed several weeks and a horse.  Now they can do it in under a week by car, or 5-6 hours by jet.  Just because things were more primitive in the past doesn't mean they can't progress.  BnS is already progressing in ways you are missing.  Since they are adding dungeons at the high end, they are eventually adding ways for previous high-end dungeons (and their needed equipment) to be more quickly traversed.  Items that required many runs to acquire, can now be sold in the market.  Initial prices are, predictably high, however some of those items can now be acquired for much as 1/24th the amount of gold initially required in the market.  Again -- surely, are you claiming all should have to pay 20k+ for an item that is now available in trove for 1k?  Admittedly, for FtP players, the odds are low of 1 free play/day yielding that item, but some have bought HM coins and can have more chances/day than the 1 free one that is given. 

 

You don't need to make further comments about norms for historical MMORPG's or even contemporary ones.  BnS doesn't have to be the same as the developers have shown.  The argument of "well, it's always been done that way" or "is done that way" fall under the logical fallacy category of "Naturalistic fallacy". See "http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html" for several common fallacies that people often use here in the forums to justify things.

[Astarae]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Cor said:

Do you even play the game? lvl 3 TT ring/earring has better stats than lvl 10 BT.

That's not the case going from BT->VT.  As already stated, constraints can be applied to problematic cases.  The most obvious "fix" would be to changing vt-raids to once/day instead of once/week.  No reason vt and tt have to be the same.  

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Cor said:

Do you even think before you post? raid bosses drop guaranteed 3 shoulshields and accessory, weapon material or badge.

The SS bosses throw out in the weekly quests are ones most people doing that dungeon, usually, already have.  I had a complete set of raven + three vt-level segments before I ever walked into a bt weekly raid as do most people in my clan.  I'm not sure which dungeons comprise vt -- I haven't been able to step into one in a party -- so I don't know what they have as for 'tt'... maybe someday.

 

I feel more like you are trying to keep lower lvled players down.  If you know so much about tt/vt, you are already considerably more advanced.  If you don't want to help people in your guild level up, no one would force you.  I don't know about your clan, but many clans prioritize people getting their first items on their mains over alts and further upgrades.

 

Since my idea is limited to those in a clan who have already completed a dungeon/raid, being allowed

to accompany others when the clan doesn't have enough high level members to spread between two groups.

[Ludicium]

9 hours ago, Astarae said:

But IME, materials are often a large impediment to upgrading. 

As for upgrading to awakened -- I acknowledge that it isn't an issue for any of the vt accessories, nor bt accesories.

Ex: Aransu 9 upgrades directly to next grade 3.

There may be some upgrades needing some lower lvl item, but I see items like 'Breeze' being required, that comes from an unlocked dungeon that many can solo.

And of course, BnS must be like every other mmorpg?  Where is that rule written? 

It used to be those traveling cross country in the US needed several weeks and a horse.  Now they can do it in under a week by car, or 5-6 hours by jet.  Just because things were more primitive in the [cut short for easier time reading]

I'm... not even going to bother. But, I'll leave this final comment. Why do you have to be so ignorant even when you have players out there who are telling you the reasons to your questions? We clearly have nothing against you at all! And you attack us. Whilst I understand that your intentions are good, and what you want is for the game to be great - for it to not just simply follow in other MMORPGs footsteps, sadly, it isn't the case - they ARE following in other MMORPGs footsteps.

 

So, true BnS certainly does NOT need to be like any other MMORPGs, but is it like any MMORPGs? Yes! Yes it is. Whilst it technically does not need to be, it can make itself better and differentiate itself from other MMORPGs, it isn't different to any other MMORPG, they have clearly chosen to go the grindy route, to have locks on dungeons. Clearly it is intentional due to the fact that there are resets which you can buy, which they KNOW people will buy - hence making them more money.

 

I am not even here to justify NCsoft's behavior, I actually agree with you that it shouldn't locked to a weekly-raid, it sucks! But sadly, it is the case. And all I did was just tell you the reason as to why several other thousand MMORPGs out there have a similar system to BnS and vice-versa - why MMORPGs DO in fact lock dungeons - hell, some even lock dungeons behind membership! It's all to make money, to prolong the player's grind. 
So, no, please do no misunderstand my intentions, I am not here to defend NCsoft's behavior, I'm simply stating that "this is why they do it".

 

Edit:
NCsoft is..weird with it's locks (ie. why lock HM and CS?) soo.. try not to go too crazy on them..

[chocofernia]

(i didnt read any of the other replies, for starters lol) I agree w this tho, BT and VT shouldn't be locked out weekly.  They don't lock DT-ST dungeons weekly despite being able to get legendary gear from it, so why should either of these still be locked?? 

I can understand VT as it's the only raid that drops the elemental neck and badge, but BT accs are no longer the best possible(thanks TT).  You can buy the prisms from merchants or from trove, and the acc needed can drop from dungeons-- making it indirectly farmable. So, imo I feel like that's BNS' way of saying 'hey, this item isnt endgame content anymore since a higher elemental item tier is out, give me ur money and buy keys!' Soon enough, BT is going to become like MSP-- they already give 3 pieces from a journal quest, the updated story will probably end up giving a full set by the end of the year.  Anyway, I'm rambling-- yeah raids shouldn't be locked out weekly; especially when there's the case of bad/trap runs, forgotten quests, yada yada.  Unless, they put it on the weekly challenge then I'd be fine w a weekly lockout ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ or if they decrease the amount of resets needed. 

[Amarathiel]

Main reason why endgame raids are locked to 1 run per week is because Korean law says you have to limit playtime in some way to avoid addictions. That's how the devs chose to do it. Also without the restriction Korean players would farm the crap out of the dungeons and get to max gear way too fast. Ofc there are resets available but not everyone is able to buy those constantly.

 

And because it is a core element of the game, its not going to change for us just because we have a different society with different rules. Korean developers = Korean rules no matter what the west says.

[Cor]

19 hours ago, Astarae said:

That's not the case going from BT->VT.  As already stated, constraints can be applied to problematic cases.  The most obvious "fix" would be to changing vt-raids to once/day instead of once/week.  No reason vt and tt have to be the same.  

That is one item and who the heck upgrades oath neck to max nowadays?

19 hours ago, Astarae said:

I feel more like you are trying to keep lower lvled players down. 

No one is trying to keep anyone down, like Ludicium already said you are just being ignorant. If raids would have unlimited access there would need to be a tradeoff for that, expecting to run them unlimited times with guaranteed drop is just a completely unreasonable demand.

[Astarae]

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 5:56 AM, Cor said:

No one is trying to keep anyone down, like Ludicium already said you are just being ignorant.

And that makes it right?  What type of reasoning is that?  I also pointed out that just because things "were some way" in the past doesn't mean anything about how they should be now -- "past performance is no guarantee of of future".  Over history of humanity, things have gotten better -- easier.  Games evolve. 

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 5:56 AM, Cor said:

 If raids would have unlimited access there would need to be a tradeoff for that, expecting to run them unlimited times with guaranteed drop is just a completely unreasonable demand.

There you go again... try to troll it up.  You are the one saying "unlimited times".  I said daily...that's 365 times in a year.  That's not even close to the "unlimited" you are using to support your unreasonable argument.

 

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 2:25 AM, Amarathiel said:

Main reason why endgame raids are locked to 1 run per week is because Korean law says you have to limit playtime in some way to avoid addictions.

That's funny my game isn't in Korean.  Seems like the conversation, subs and story telling is in English.  Now I bet you Korean law says all citizens living in Korea must be able to read, write and speak Korean.  I bet you it is even a *law*.  And you claim that Koren devs will only support gamers following Korean law?  But then the game is in English.  I think Korean devs are not quite the robots you make them out to be.  Furthermore, I think it takes low resources to flip a bit in the game on another server to allow vt+IC to be done daily.  I'm pretty sure that flipping a bit to allow something daily vs. weekly -- or even to change those quests to dailies is ALOT easier than changing the language through-out the entire game.  It's NOT a core element to choose whether a dungeon can be done daily or weekly.  It's nothing compared to changing the language through-out the game.  And the language issue proves that the devs don't have to do the same for other countries as is done in Korea.

 

As for reset being available, why would they have resets available for vt/IC and not for bt.  The ones for bt *exist*, but only come up infrequently in things like troves.  I can't see the ones in vt being any easier to come by.

 

 

 

[Aribeth]

Why don't they just allow players to help others in those DG so that those DG are available to more players. Those helping will not be able to get any mats from runs. Of course, some might do it for gold while others will do it for friendship.