Jump to content
Forums

Suggestions for a better game


Recommended Posts

As it currently stands the game is rather punishing to new, low and mid level players.   Next, will be my long list of problems I see at each of these levels.

 

(New player issues)

1) A long and vastly empty plot area that discourages players from seeing the player base for a long period of time.  This is literally the first impression of the game which is a vast unoccupied space.  Most new players don't make it far enough in to really experience player interactions that makes this game fun.

2) In between, there are countless open world quests with pointlessly small rewards.  These quests are relics of an earlier time and simply waste time for new players.  

3) A large number of empty dungeons that if you do find someone to join with is so strong they just smash the dungeon.  This again does nothing to show the person what the game is about other than equipment that smashes things.  Thus players have no concept about mechanics and don't discover it is what this game is about until they grind their way to where they are actually with people who need to do the mech.

(Low player issues)

4) Low amounts of gold dropped in the lower dungeon.  This creates a huge speed change from being handed everything in terms of materials to welcome to the grind.  Again discouraging to any low or mid player.  Worse if a newer player accidentally misuses their given resources they are set way, way behind.  Given there are multiple paths for many advancements and dozens of unexplained aspects to the game, it is very easy for a new player to waste those vital free resources and end up with nothing.  They can restart from scratch but that is just discouraging.

5) Further, old dungeons drop useless rare items.  These items were great for players when it was current, but now are completely useless.  Since no one bids on anything it means that the lower and mid level players are forced to even more grinding to try to make up.

(Mid player issues)

6) The prices for materials needs to ever make progress are competing for materials used by whales thus the price for anything but the top level player is just prohibitive, further compounding the previous two problems.

7) Worse if you try to grind your way up, next month an even gives the item away.  This quite frankly makes players feel stupid for playing.   Every time you advance the hours of grinding are rendered pointless as the item cost drop or the event gives it for free.  Thus the very system being used to try to catch people up is creating a negative experience for players.

 

So lets look at the basis of these problems.  We can't put more drops in low level dungeons or it may be profitable to have upper level players just run through and farm.  We can't have the older content well populated or we are removing from the new dungeons.  We can't increase material supplied to catch players off without causing either bad feelings with newer players or older players.  

 

This leads to my suggestions about how to reinvigorate the game.

 

1) Cut the length of the plot considerably by removing some of the chapters allowing new players to more quickly join the main part of the game.

2) Remove all open world quest as they don't serve anything but grinding potential currently.

3) Remove all dungeons below EL from the match making as they currently stand.  Change these to normalized dungeons like the last Poh event (somewhat less deadly but still reasonably challenging).  Each day only 2 to 3 of these dungeons are open each day of the week.  Place decent rewards of both high and low level materials to drop.  Place additional reward chances for completing with under level players incentivizing players of all levels to complete dungeons together.  All players can run these once a day with no more than one on the daily challenge. Lower level players will be granted resets as they complete the quests on the main line giving them much needed resources.  Give out resets as needed to control the flow to these dungeons based on level.  The lower the level the more often they receive a reset.  Place normalized daily reward that gives good rewards good for each level.  Thus higher level players receive materials relevant to their position and lower level get the things they need.  This will bring new players into contact with the upper players and give much needed cash as the upper level players bid on rewards.  Further it shows lower level players what this game is about, completing a dungeon using teamwork.   By making the rewards normalized there is no chance for abuse by alts as the farmed material will be relevant to the alts level rather than the mains.   As new dungeons are introduced, old dungeons get moved into the normalized rotation.

4) The normalized dungeons also solves the problem of gold pricing, as the old dungeons are now much less queues they can support both new and old players, so the rewards can be good as they are no subject to abuse.  Therefore, the reward gold can be good enough so new players catch up thus closing the huge gap between the low and top ends.

5) The normalized dungeons also addresses rare material drops.  By dropping good and current rare items rather than junk, those lower level will make decent gold from the bids catching them up naturally to the player base rather than simply by forcing them along the quest.  

6) Separate the materials such that high level players can't drive up the resource cost of lower level players.  Newer resources can be broken down into old resources so that if a new player gets it they can still advance with it by decomposing to things they need, but then low level players don't get hurt with ever increasing prices.  For example souls should not use the same sacred oil for the entire chain nor pet pods.  Having to compete with players with thousands of gold causes huge imbalances that prevents low level advancement.  Of course, there should be a way for a high level player to use lower level resources, but this should be through a RNG box (like the one Naryu labyrinth) so that it is never profitable but it doesn't feel like they are receiving junk.  This means less dead end items that fill inventory.  All those fiend boxes, cold iron items, and pirate tokens go away.  Also remove the level restriction on using items for upgrading so that all these things that are no longer relevant are dropped.  

7) Last rather than dropping prices or giving things away for free, instead use the fact that materials are now separated by level of item.  Thus to increase the rate people catch up simply increase the supply of materials available in each reward box.  That way the players never feel cheated by buying items today.  You will get less people frustratedly mailing support because they just blew 400 gold to upgrade one level on and item that is now free in the next patch, or watch as the last months worth of materials they saved and spend were useless as the price just dropped.   

 

In short, separate materials so that the prices for can be controlled at different levels.  Use supply side rather than giveaways to control the advancement rather of low level players.   Use normalized dungeon with daily run limits for end game players and give out resets to help catch up low and mid level players (the less HM level the more times you can run these high reward dungeons.)  Give different rewards based on level rather than a fixed reward so you can better meter advancement and prevent abuse by alts.  

 

Of course this is my two cents on how the game should be improved, and other people's opinions may differ.  I really do like the game, and I would like to see it become better in the future.

Edited by Thrameos
Lost text in cut and paste.
Link to post
Share on other sites

1. And skip the epick story of your character? I actually don't like how they already shortened the story quests in some places (i have 10 characters so i went through the story a lot). 

I would though support an option to skip story for alts, when you went through it at least once, but they wouldn't do it anyway as they have to sell the lvl50 start pack.

New players can enjoy the community through the faction chat. Even though i personally wouldn't bother with it, and have my faction chat limited to a single non default tab.

And do you really want new players to interact with all the end game content right away, where people are too busy rushing the dungeons with VT gear and don't want to see anyone near them without at least 1.1k ap and perfect knoladge of the mech?

 

2. You can ignore them if you want. Why cut content?

 

3. That is interesting idea. I would support.

 

I don't have a clear opinion on the rest.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your comments SadFace.  

 

1) Before I made the suggestion I tried to run a character from level 1 to 55.   Though I agree generally that they have done a good job of removing much of the grind 20 of these and then grind 15 of these, it still took a very long time to get to places that were actually interesting in the game.  Thus I would suggest simply trimming out some of the side plots in the quest line so that we don't have acts with nearly 40 chapters.  I agree that if it is very much shortened that it would make it silly by throwing starters in the end game area.  What I am suggesting is that much of the chapters between Jadestone and Mushins tower be cut down.   For example, reduce the amount of time trying to get through the desert to get Mushins legacy.  Yes it is all great plot, but when I had my daughter play test through she felt that all she was doing was running from person to person smashing 3 monsters then running from person to person.  I don't think a reduction of 20-30% in the chapters that new people face is going to interfere with voucher for level 50, but it may mean people don't quit at level 43 because they still haven't seen other player in 3 days.

 

2) All of the blue side quests serve nothing but to slow down new players.  The exp they give is completely dwarfed by main quest and the items are a pittance.  Experienced people will skip all of them, but new players tend to pick up all quests or at least that was what I could determine.  My point is the game needs to be streamlined to get people to areas that don't feel empty and side quests are not a great use of time.  It would be better for lower level people to boost themselves interacting with other players in normalized dungeons rather than another N fetch quests.

 

On this point I tried to do some research before suggesting.  I spent last week queuing in Blackram Narrows talking to new players (or surveying if they were new or old).  I felt it was somewhat strange seeing people running alts queuing for blackram at level 20, but I did see a few.  But for the most part it was returning and new players.  I now have  a long list of "fresh" friends that I can see how many advance and how quickly. 

 

3) Thanks.  I personally really loved the Poh event.  When I joined this game a month after it was launched and restarted 3 times because I messed up resources, fouled up character to have too much clipping, and spent too much time farming, so by the time I got to the top content two months after launch there were already plenty of whales.  Every time I got to a dungeon area people had strong enough weapons that they could smash the dungeon without the mech.  So I would study up on the mech of the hard dungeon knowing I would be there in just another week or two.  But every time I got there a new patch would come out.  The hard dungeon was removed and mechs were dropped or reduced.  Other than the really mech heavy dungeons like Naryu Labyrinth very little mechs stood out.  I don't ever even remember the steam vents because people smashed it so fast.  Thus I felt that I was just never going to get the content out of the game and so I quit for more than a year.   I have since returned but the experience hasn't changed that much.  New dungeons come out and by the time I get to them they are being nerfed.  I never get the full experience of game of actually running a dungeon at the level it was designed with people equiped to match.  That is until Poh event.  It was a bit long (mobs too deadly and bos fight that was razors edge) but it did great in showing off the content of the old dungeon.  After minor tweaks by the end it was a great dungeon to run.  I would like to see that of all the older content.    

 

There was one other thing that bugged me running through the game.  That is any enemy with a fast respawn gives no exp and no coin.  It is to prevent people from just grinding someplace with lots of enemies.  But routinely newer players didn't look to see the coin or exp and wasted time at some point killing a bunch of these mobs.  It would be better to allow mobs like these to be hit for exp once and then untargetable from then on, but that is a really minor point.  Every game has noob traps, but they should be minimized.

 

I am hoping this thread gets enough comments to attract some actual attention with devs, but the chance of that is slim.  Your post helps so thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Thrameos said:

1) Before I made the suggestion I tried to run a character from level 1 to 55.   Though I agree generally that they have done a good job of removing much of the grind 20 of these and then grind 15 of these, it still took a very long time to get to places that were actually interesting in the game.  Thus I would suggest simply trimming out some of the side plots in the quest line so that we don't have acts with nearly 40 chapters.  I agree that if it is very much shortened that it would make it silly by throwing starters in the end game area.  What I am suggesting is that much of the chapters between Jadestone and Mushins tower be cut down.   For example, reduce the amount of time trying to get through the desert to get Mushins legacy.  Yes it is all great plot, but when I had my daughter play test through she felt that all she was doing was running from person to person smashing 3 monsters then running from person to person.  I don't think a reduction of 20-30% in the chapters that new people face is going to interfere with voucher for level 50, but it may mean people don't quit at level 43 because they still haven't seen other player in 3 days.

There is no grind, rly. Grind was when you needed a specific weapon for breakthrough, and you would grind that low lvl dungeon for hours to get it. Now it's just the story.

If you cut the chapters it would damage the story, as you can not have an epic and big as life adventure if you can run through it in a matter of 10 hours. Yes, a big chunk of the story is pretty simplistic and banal, but what all those quests and characters give is the sense of SCALE. When you finally defeat Jinsoyun it feels like you have been through a lot, you have seen the world, you have met a lot of people, you have grown from a green cricket to a real martial arts MASTER. There is no real point in the story that would be like "omg that was so cool!" but the best thing about the story is that it is a real journey. And when you accomplish a story arc you can FEEL that you accomplish something, you can see how your character is growing and learning to become a worthwhile successor of his master's school. You can see the LEGACY of your own character unfolds in front of you. And that is a fealing that very few games there were able to capture. This game made me like it's story, even though i didn't want it at first.

Of course, not everyone like the story or even read the dialogs. But well... you can't make a thing that would be great for everyone. If you are not interested in the story - you can run through it as fast as possible, speedrun it. Or you can buy the lvl50 pack. But in this way - you have options. If they would've cut the story, that would left those people who want all the story without the thing they would've enjoy. And to offer a choise at the beginning asking the player if he want's to skip the story - is also kind of a bad way to deal with it, as people need to expirience the story first to be able to make an advised decision.

Basically in this paragraph you are trying to steal the fun from the players that could've enjoy whatever the story can give them, just because you or your friends/daughters didn't like it.

 

1 hour ago, Thrameos said:

2) All of the blue side quests serve nothing but to slow down new players.  The exp they give is completely dwarfed by main quest and the items are a pittance.  Experienced people will skip all of them, but new players tend to pick up all quests or at least that was what I could determine.  My point is the game needs to be streamlined to get people to areas that don't feel empty and side quests are not a great use of time.  It would be better for lower level people to boost themselves interacting with other players in normalized dungeons rather than another N fetch quests.

There are some background plots and recurring characters in those quests. So those quests are the part of story. Just ignore them if you don't enjoy them. You don't need to be an expirienced player to ignore whatever is not interesting for you and is clearly non benefitial to a lvl up progration.

Though it would be nice if they would've just buff the rewards, so players would feel justified puting an effort in to those quests. But they will not do that :( 

 

1 hour ago, Thrameos said:

3) Thanks.  I personally really loved the Poh event.  When I joined this game a month after it was launched and restarted 3 times because I messed up resources, fouled up character to have too much clipping, and spent too much time farming, so by the time I got to the top content two months after launch there were already plenty of whales.  Every time I got to a dungeon area people had strong enough weapons that they could smash the dungeon without the mech.  So I would study up on the mech of the hard dungeon knowing I would be there in just another week or two.  But every time I got there a new patch would come out.  The hard dungeon was removed and mechs were dropped or reduced.  Other than the really mech heavy dungeons like Naryu Labyrinth very little mechs stood out.  I don't ever even remember the steam vents because people smashed it so fast.  Thus I felt that I was just never going to get the content out of the game and so I quit for more than a year.   I have since returned but the experience hasn't changed that much.  New dungeons come out and by the time I get to them they are being nerfed.  I never get the full experience of game of actually running a dungeon at the level it was designed with people equiped to match.  That is until Poh event.  It was a bit long (mobs too deadly and bos fight that was razors edge) but it did great in showing off the content of the old dungeon.  After minor tweaks by the end it was a great dungeon to run.  I would like to see that of all the older content.    

Ye Poh event was nice. Painfull to do but nice :) 

I would tho like if in the normalise dungeons badges and some effects from items would still work, as those are crucial for a propper skill rotations. So just normalise attack power stats and crit chance but not things like cd reductions or extra effects on some skills that triggers antoher skills and that triggers another... So we could continue to do the normal rotation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Realmrift BSC was nice, but one thing about that event was that it was very ping dependent, since you didn't have gears to compensate for your ping. And that greatly limit the ability to clear the thing of many players and parties. I for one could only clear that event on my FM (fire Fm was the most ping friendly class), my DES and BD (I grabbed the entire dungeon.) All other classes were doomed to fail (except maybe SUM but I didn't do it on my SUM back then).

 

If dungeons were made stats-equalized and mechanic - centric, then NC should adjust the Hp pool and Self harm mechanics accordingly to help the general average playerbase.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sadface, I do appreciate that you like the story.  I certainly appreciate there are reoccurring characters and themes.  (though at times it got a bit weird as I had a weird feeling I was being followed and characters reoccurred over and over.) However, I do believe the current story is currently long enough that it is discouraging to new players.  It would be great to survey players, but that runs into the issue that the new players that stick around are by definition those that the long plot does not bother.  Fortunately, there is no requirement that we all agree.  But even if you like the quests, the game ultimately is not about the quests.  It may be a great story but it ultimately is just the backdrop.  Roughly 2% of my time was following the quests and the rest was open world events and dungeon running (and bookkeeping on materials and crafts).   Maybe I am just jaded after running 5 characters through the main quest and just finding it less interesting each time.

 

It is hard to imagine people buying a level 50 just because and even trying to speed run it made the plot even worse for me because frankly it was so repetitive.  (He is going to betray, and he is going to betray, and then there is going to be another betrayal)  Perhaps we should just compromise by suggesting some of the yellow quest become blue so that both options are still available.  

 

I would really like to hear other options.  Perhaps we can come up with something better.  For example, we could have the ability to run dungeons and "test" out of certain chapter.   That way we support both types of players.  I am not here to dictate this is the way it has to be, but rather lay out the issues I see coming up over and over in the forums and try to get people involved in coming up with solutions to make a better game.  Lets not just complain but rather come up with constructive steps to improve things.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Thicc Stoccpot I believe the rewards should warrant the effort.  If the normalize dungeons are darn hard to run like BSC then they better have good rewards.  But making them razor thin margins for mistakes would kind of defeat the point of having dungeons available for all levels of players.  We don't want people raging.  Thus I am suggesting hard enough to where mechanics should be used but not such that even with perfect mechs the boss still rages without perfect ping.  For example adding 45s to BSC would have removed much of the pressure of perfect dps but still required players to do the teamwork.   Do you agree with that assessment?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Thrameos said:

@Thicc Stoccpot I believe the rewards should warrant the effort.  If the normalize dungeons are darn hard to run like BSC then they better have good rewards.  But making them razor thin margins for mistakes would kind of defeat the point of having dungeons available for all levels of players.  We don't want people raging.  Thus I am suggesting hard enough to where mechanics should be used but not such that even with perfect mechs the boss still rages without perfect ping.  For example adding 45s to BSC would have removed much of the pressure of perfect dps but still required players to do the teamwork.   Do you agree with that assessment?

Agreed. Gotta find that balance between challenging & frustration. Just make the thing challenging enough that without mechanics and team work people won't be able to pass, but at the same time give them some leeway as well. Too challenging would actually make the game unfun for many imo. Just make it hard enough for the majority of players, with some room for error.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

This has been floating around in my head, but remember that Blackram supply chain event (Basically Hard Mode).

Do that for all dungeons (Silverfrost to Cinderlands, All that old content no one ever touches, of course scale it properly not crazy) make Hard Mode Daily quests, throw in a level appropriate perm very low chance merchant of wonders(It could be just the dungeons costume and some basic materials and this becomes an incentive for people to move around dungeons more).

 

Yes that 1 person with 10 characters will run all the Daily Quests possible on all characters!

 

This is whole lot of effort I know and it will probably be ignored, but it's not like most new and even old non whale players can play anything above NS.

 

(I have 1075AP, I've seen a couple groups doing dungeons above NS asking for 1000K+, but I know deep down like most runs and with most players, that first wipe even if it's at the final boss people block you, report you, and rage quit (LOL) and so anything above NS has registered in my mind as waste of time and effort)

 

Right now people only do the Daily Challenge and nothing below EC and stop at NS.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know about your exp. I'm guessing you probably could 5 man realmrift BSC maybe because you just ran that with your static team where everybody had 100ms and your team had very good party comp (sb bb reset grab...)

 

I did that dungeon in F8, cleared that probably over 100 times throughout the event. And yeah, with perfect part comp of sb bb grab that dungeon came down smoothly sometimes with even 1.30 min left. But without perfect comp.... and especially when the party had about one or two people with bad ping in it? Ans moreover, when those bad ping were playing classes that they absolutely shouldn't be playing like fire bm and ice sf? Even with proper valve work and my FM tanking both tiger and poharan at the same time, we would still fail. I'd love to have some leeway in terms of dps so that even teams with a bad ping player or two could clear it. I myself have bad ping so I only did that on my FM. But that was just me... There are other players with bad ping that don't play fm. A bit of dps leeway would help them and their teams to clear.

 

Now if you go ahead and say I shouldn't play this game if I have high ping then yeah, you win this argument I guess. 

 

Personally I'd prefer if the dungeons don't require such strict party composition, and you don't need to have all sb bb grab reset (or 3 of these 4) to clear... Realmrift BSC absolutely required good party comp to clear which sometimes I found it hard to acquire in F8. I categorize having to wait 8 minutes to get a member hard to get party btw.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Thicc Stoccpot I likely had a different experience.  I ran it without any friends using F8 every time.  But then I play a BD thus so long as I did my role we almost always completed.   My ping ranges from good to poor depending on the night.  Oddly there were two ways to win the level.  One method was to use grabs and do the mech.  But the other method was to have everyone use a "mild dumpling" and simply attack their way through the mech.  The mech cut damage with everyone stop dpsing but with a mild dumpling everyone would survive the roomwide aoe and keeping the damage up making for a easy finish with 30s even on the first day it was introduced.

 

My point is I would like to see more options to how to play the game that provided options to less that top tier geared players.  Obviously it isn't for everyone and those with bad ping may need help from clan members to clear it.  But I personally find that type of challenge fun and think others do to.   If playing the mech isn't appealing then just get good gear and blast through the dungeon ignoring it all.  Normalized dungeons would make old dungeons playable and shrinking them to just 2-3 available to play a day would make it possible to find teams to play this good content.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...