Jump to content
Forums

Re: the entire idea of nerfing classes due to dps


swpz

Recommended Posts

Let's see a log of you hitting 700 keys per minute in sequence without mistakes, timing differences and lastly, downtime, yes, really. For simplicity's sake make it 3 sequential keys.

 

Not quite, skills per minute accounts for lost inputs (via any factor). You can hit 4 10 times but that doesn't mean it will execute 10 times. There are physical considerations as well, even the time it takes for a key to reach the computer to the transmission of that input is time and potential loss.

 

Let's see some videos shall we? Macro vs no macro demonstration on a lightning assassin.

 

No macro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dxrUTniiws

Macro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBQboN0LQ_I&t=209s

 

Visually, the speed differences are almost 50% (I'm guessing here, but there is a definite pause in-between cancellations for the non macro guy and absolutely no downtime for the macro, that guy runs a continuous loop). These videos alone demonstrate the superiority of macros over non macro users.

 

Also going to comment that the FM in the macro video is the only one that looks reasonable and not absurd. But that is no doubt due to the 500ms ICD set for those two skills. When we go to the gunner macro demonstration it's actually flat out hilarious how fast it becomes.

 

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0up1swGg3O4  here's a BM macro at 200ms ping, does that look like 200ms ping? I can tell you for sure it's doesn't look like it at all, I play with 150-180 after all.

 

The same DPS combos from PVE can be used for PVP on a locked down player. Ranged characters like WL can use macros in PVP to literally instantly gib anyone before they can do much. So can gunners now. Macros are useless in PVP only for melee characters - and even then it's conditional; they're fully usable once the target has no tab or escapes left.

 

By the way, pure laziness isn't an excuse for being lame. Again, what's the sense if a script is playing for you and you aren't actually playing yourself?

 

I did a bit more research into this, there is apparently(?) no minimum set GCD number. There is an "auto GCD" that takes place every 10 hits that adjusts to the users' ping. This can STILL be turned off as many players seemingly have attested to in multiple discussion boards about this topic. What was changed is that you cannot adjust your GCD as you see fit anymore; so you can set the line that used to adjust GCD but it will do nothing at all. You can still disable the "auto-bias" line. The results vary apparently as I haven't done this myself; but some people report excellent results and some people report the exact opposite. This apparently(?) works on some skills but not others.

 

No, most groups cannot. This has been the trend ever since EC+ came out when bosses started to have tens of millions of HP and complex mechanics that would prevent people from simply DPSing their way through them. The definition of a casual player today is still someone in the range of 900-1000 AP without BT/VT and the like; even content like NS can still be failed by these people, to say nothing about the latest dungeons like HH and DD. That complex mechanics were introduced, I'd theorize to be related to the absurd DPS that was being output; if you can simply out DPS the mechanics, then the solution was obviously to make the mechanics wipe parties that dared to try such. I haven't bothered to do RT yet though, I'll get back to you on that one. Note that most dungeons were heavily nerfed in normal mode, normal mode used to wipe parties that failed mechanics, now you just take about 60% damage.

 

You're misinterpreting my message again. I've got nothing against macro users aside from the fact that I'm theorizing they're causing ranged classes to be nerfed over and over again simply because the macro usage is artificially inflating the damage the class would otherwise do. In essence, instead of nerfing the classes, simply remove the ability to macro. I'm inclined to believe that class balance is determined by the sum of the net damage per class and averaging it out against other classes. Adjustments are made to raise or lower the average on a blanket level for the class irrespective of gear. If class A is over-performing out of all classes then A will be nerfed. But if A is only over-performing against say one class B then maybe instead, B will be buffed to compensate. This sort of adjustment has been seen over and over again when certain classes' DPS being increased or decreased as time has gone by.

 

That was the point of this topic to begin with. I'm not sure where you got the idea I'd be happy to punish macro users. I think they're lame for using them and lazy to boot, but that doesn't mean I'm negatively inclined towards punishing them.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, swpz said:

Let's see a log of you hitting 700 keys per minute in sequence without mistakes, timing differences and lastly, downtime, yes, really. For simplicity's sake make it 3 sequential keys.

 

Not quite, skills per minute accounts for lost inputs (via any factor). You can hit 4 10 times but that doesn't mean it will execute 10 times. There are physical considerations as well, even the time it takes for a key to reach the computer to the transmission of that input is time and potential loss.

 

Let's see some videos shall we? Macro vs no macro demonstration on a lightning assassin.

 

No macro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dxrUTniiws

Macro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBQboN0LQ_I&t=209s

 

Visually, the speed differences are almost 50% (I'm guessing here, but there is a definite pause in-between cancellations for the non macro guy and absolutely no downtime for the macro, that guy runs a continuous loop). These videos alone demonstrate the superiority of macros over non macro users.

 

Also going to comment that the FM in the macro video is the only one that looks reasonable and not absurd. But that is no doubt due to the 500ms ICD set for those two skills. When we go to the gunner macro demonstration it's actually flat out hilarious how fast it becomes.

 

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0up1swGg3O4  here's a BM macro at 200ms ping, does that look like 200ms ping? I can tell you for sure it's doesn't look like it at all, I play with 150-180 after all.

 

The same DPS combos from PVE can be used for PVP on a locked down player. Ranged characters like WL can use macros in PVP to literally instantly gib anyone before they can do much. So can gunners now. Macros are useless in PVP only for melee characters - and even then it's conditional; they're fully usable once the target has no tab or escapes left.

 

By the way, pure laziness isn't an excuse for being lame. Again, what's the sense if a script is playing for you and you aren't actually playing yourself?

 

I did a bit more research into this, there is apparently(?) no minimum set GCD number. There is an "auto GCD" that takes place every 10 hits that adjusts to the users' ping. This can STILL be turned off as many players seemingly have attested to in multiple discussion boards about this topic. What was changed is that you cannot adjust your GCD as you see fit anymore; so you can set the line that used to adjust GCD but it will do nothing at all. You can still disable the "auto-bias" line. The results vary apparently as I haven't done this myself; but some people report excellent results and some people report the exact opposite. This apparently(?) works on some skills but not others.

 

No, most groups cannot. This has been the trend ever since EC+ came out when bosses started to have tens of millions of HP and complex mechanics that would prevent people from simply DPSing their way through them. The definition of a casual player today is still someone in the range of 900-1000 AP without BT/VT and the like; even content like NS can still be failed by these people, to say nothing about the latest dungeons like HH and DD. That complex mechanics were introduced, I'd theorize to be related to the absurd DPS that was being output; if you can simply out DPS the mechanics, then the solution was obviously to make the mechanics wipe parties that dared to try such. I haven't bothered to do RT yet though, I'll get back to you on that one. Note that most dungeons were heavily nerfed in normal mode, normal mode used to wipe parties that failed mechanics, now you just take about 60% damage.

 

You're misinterpreting my message again. I've got nothing against macro users aside from the fact that I'm theorizing they're causing ranged classes to be nerfed over and over again simply because the macro usage is artificially inflating the damage the class would otherwise do. In essence, instead of nerfing the classes, simply remove the ability to macro. I'm inclined to believe that class balance is determined by the sum of the net damage per class and averaging it out against other classes. Adjustments are made to raise or lower the average on a blanket level for the class irrespective of gear. If class A is over-performing out of all classes then A will be nerfed. But if A is only over-performing against say one class B then maybe instead, B will be buffed to compensate. This sort of adjustment has been seen over and over again when certain classes' DPS being increased or decreased as time has gone by.

 

That was the point of this topic to begin with. I'm not sure where you got the idea I'd be happy to punish macro users. I think they're lame for using them and lazy to boot, but that doesn't mean I'm negatively inclined towards punishing them.

 

I'm not going to bother vid capturing just for the sake of argument, but I did test it out on notepad; I can keep up 600apm hitting 3 buttons in a sequence without mistakes for a good half a minute (no class dps's straight for more than that without taking a break to apply buffs anyway so it should suffice). So I lied a bit, 700 is indeed stretching it, but I also don't think I'm the best at spamming keys accurately and no class requires that kind of speed anyway.

 

Cherry picking a bad sin for non-macro example is quite biased. Here's an example of actually good anicancel. Aaand your blade master example is using the edited GCD since it hasn't been patched in CN (he clearly states it in the comments), that is even more biased. Shadow gunner lol? It's the least taxing class what comes to inputs in the game, 90% of it is just holding down RB. The amount of hits you can do is strictly dependent on your ping. It will always look ridiculously fast on low ping. For example: https://youtu.be/IatlbxlBFTA?t=12m10s

 

 

Speaking of which, I did tell you can turn the auto-bias off, but there indeed is a minimum GCD. Removing the auto-bias only sets it to the minimum, which is around 100ms (judging from the fastest hit speeds I've seen). If there was no minimum GCD set on server-side, then disabling the auto-bias would set it to 0 and you'd still see those 20+ hits per second combos. Those are not possible anymore, haven't been since manual editing of the GCD was removed.

 

Human wls and gunners have the exact same combo available to them and it's possible to do. There's nothing else to it. Macroing in pvp is considered outright cheating anyway and anyone who has any integrity at all wouldn't do it even if it was greatly beneficial. So yeah, it's just silly to bring it up. Even the people I know to macro pve will never touch macros in pvp.

 

Complex mechanics have existed in the game since... naruy labyrinth. It's what makes the gameplay interesting instead of just a brainless dps fest. It's got nothing to do with people's damage outputs, just good boss/game design. The fact that gear has pushed our dps so high that we can skip all mechanics is rather sad. Note: gear. Not macro users.

 

And yes, if I can solo starstone mines (which I can easily), then a party that consists of people who have 1/6th of my damage (67k average each) can clear it too, that is undeniable. I also have the damage to solo drowning deeps and hollow's heart, but you cannot get to those last bosses without help (afaik, I haven't actually tried to solo DD yet, but I know for a fact that it's doable for me). So yes, it is possible even for those 1k groups to clear end game content. It's not easy, but possible if you know your classes. Besides, if you're still struggling at 900-1k ap after playing for even a month or two, this isn't the game for you. Eastern MMOs require a certain amount of grinding if you want to enjoy all the content. End game is that; end game. Why should you expect to clear it easily if you cannot put the time in to get even close to end game gear?

And yes, most normal mode dungeons were heavily nerfed to make them easier for the lower geared people and new normal mode dungeons have no wipe mechanics at all apart from ransacked treasury just to let the casual player enjoy them as well. If a party fails to clear NS even now, then there's a fault in the players, not in macro users or class balance.

 

And for the last time, macro users don't affect class balance at all. Even in the rare cases were macroing is actually beneficial for dps (it unarguably does help players who don't have the dexterity or endurance to do accurate anicanceling for sustained periods of time), the difference is so tiny compared to a skilled human that it counts for nothing. If it helps someone who simply cannot do optimal dps without, good for them I guess. Our class balance is strictly stolen from KR where it's adjusted based on the KR community feedback and the game designers' own judgement and it is for the most part balanced around end game gear... and it is also balanced around the average KR ping (which is far, far superior to ours). You can read the developer letters at bnstree if you want to get some insight as to why they're making the changes they are. Making up wild theories up about it when there's publicly available information straight from the devs seems pretty pointless.

 

Anyway, it does seem you're only willing to reinforce your own opinion and ignore any counterarguments outright, so I feel like I'm playing the infamous pidgeon chess here. And we will be getting the ingame macros from KR regardless at some point, so this whole argument is moot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As you will.

 

No comment on this, I'm just googling "bns macro" and looking at the top results. Those happen to be top results. Again in your video seems to be a pause in-between each rotation. Either this is normal or this is ping caused macro usage. I'm currently tampering with my G105 keyboard and have noticed that I can input X commands but there will be lag at the re-sending of each new sequence no matter how low I set the timing. In essence, say I'm doing a 4x lmb + 2x rmb with 100ms delays for the first 4, 250ms delay for the latter two; this entire sequence will play out flawlessly on pressing the G keys on my keyboard. However, when the macro loops, it stutters and sometimes doesn't resend. This, is no doubt due to ping (180 ms after all). So, in essence, this test of mine with a simple keyboard macro has shown me, at the very least, hitting the macro will send all the commands in and won't miss anything. If I was to do the above manually, I'd miss the second RMB for unknown reasons - it's not that I didn't hit RMB, the game just wouldn't process the input but would with the macro. Basically this is just a flicker-> proc conflagration -> DT twice, rinse, repeat, deal. With a macro I can match the speeds of that BM in my aforementioned video, no GCD edit. Without a macro, I cannot hope to match his speeds.

 

So far as testing is concerned, I'm pretty confident in the results. Think I just need to figure out how to mitigate the loop stutter issue and it's a perfectly functional "never miss a hit again" sort of deal.

 

Can tweak the timings a bit more just to see how absurd it can get, or change to lightning to see if the macro animation cancels are possible, but anyways...

 

Recall once upon a time it was possible for sins to hit 10-15 heart stabs in a second with macros and GCD removal; I don't run a sin but would be curious to see if this is still possible. In any case, as NC doesn't release mechanics, all we have to go by are users on Reddit and BNSBuddy who give conflicting accounts of GCD removal, some claim it works, they can still hit as fast as they did; some claim it doesn't work and it in fact makes them slower. Who to believe? Who knows?

 

Not in PVP? You assume that said players who macro wouldn't use their macros in PVP as well. Given that the tournaments explicitly forbid such behavior, I'd presume that more players macro than you think, otherwise, this rule would be moot.

 

You are aware that macro users used to be able to clear DT with sub 500 AP where as normal parties needed 700 yes? The ability to attack flawlessly without any missed hits is telling. If I use my above example where I'd normally only score 5/6 hits, that's 83% efficiency. With macros, I'd have an extra 17% amount of hits that I otherwise wouldn't have, how much AP does that translate into? Not sure, but it would certainly be significant.

 

Then there's every other instance aside from that that were nothing but DPS rushes. I don't recall enough about NL to comment on it, as I started this game when DT+ was already out, I recall doing NL was nothing but another DPS rush.

 

Whether or not a player should be in the game isn't for you nor me to decide. My comment was that inflated figures lead to more difficult content leading to trickle down effects of difficulty to players that would be affected the most. So called end game players will always clear their content by fair means or foul; but simply put, as the nerfs demonstrated, I'd imagine it wasn't exactly the intention of the developers to make their content so difficult so as to lock most players out. The new dungeons, DD, HH, SSM aren't difficult. Considering they're non-nerfed versions it shows a lot that at least, the design is back on track, where not all but a select group of players are locked out of the content like they were back in the days of EC/DT/NF.

 

Koreans macro the hell out of everything too. Most of the scripts initially came from Korean players.

 

I'm finding information as available, if you think it's biased, that cannot be helped if it's the top results returned. I'd like to vet my information but it's not always possible, there aren't exactly credible references to cross check with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, swpz said:

-snip-

 

A few quick points I can still correct:

 

Sorry, I posted the wrong video about good sin anicancel (I was checking a bunch). Here's the one I meant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq3vusUTwvs&feature=youtu.be - The player in question is 100% doing it fully manual. This is also legitimate fire bm: https://it-film.com/v-blade-and-soul-fire-bm-502k-ae8sodsTGUQ.html

 

Tons and tons of other examples from the top players of their respective classes.

 

 

The global server-side gcd indeed is there, that has been tested (obviously the first thing when editing it got patched). The shadow sin and light bd etc hit amounts are not possible anymore. The reason why removing the auto-bias gcd gives mixed results is that it generally only helps people on really low pings. People with high ping or heavy amount of fluctuation in the said ping are better off keeping the auto-bias on to make the game adjust the gcd to their ping on the fly. Also, for some classes, like FM, it really makes no difference one way or the other.

 

I was one of those people who were clearing DT 4man on release with a way undergeared party. Same with EC/NF and Asura. None of us ever macroed. Just because someone can play the game better than you doesn't mean it's automatically cheating or macroing. Especially since if you're really dropping 1/6 inputs in a fight, you're either suffering from some heavy performance issues or are just not adjusting to it properly (the said 180ms ping explains a lot already, I find the game unplayable when I get that high numbers). Either way, maybe you should stick to macroing then to make up for the gap, I'd see that as a completely valid reason to do so. As said, even I double tap skills to make sure that they go off on 90-110ms ingame (and I intentionally leave some RBs out from rotation at certain points just to make things a bit easier on me).

 

In the end, the ability to attack flawlessly (I guess you mean without dropping inputs), as you state, is not something only macro users can do. Any and all good players in the game with decent ping can do it without any external help. The game is designed and balanced with that in mind. I'm sure that if you were to play the game with sub 100ms ingame ping and a high enough framerate to suit it, you would quickly realize that it doesn't take macros to hit *all* of your skills and anicancel accurately. I feel sorry for you, but pointing a finger at everyone who doesn't suffer from the same performance issues and calling them out as cheaters isn't the correct approach. Yes, tons of people macro (especially on KR), but [b]if[/b] they gain any advantage from it (I'm anything but convinced that they do), the difference in dps to a highly skilled, low ping player is minuscule.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sin looks good, the KR macro video is still faster.

 

The BM, 47 APM as per the guy's youtube video of that same combo, really? By the way, the guy also admits the following:

 

Quote

J C the point of this video is to show the different rotations and damage output. You have to choose which one to use in a real fight. This is why fire bm is a lot more involved than what most think. Your ping is amazing. I dont know exactly how much dps you should do but you want to aim for sub 4.1s/tab. The rest will come naturally. I do use bnsbuddy to disable xign and autogcd.

 

Not sure what to make of that. He tells a 70ms ping player his ping is "amazing" implying the author's ping is actually higher. The BM is a good example of no minimum GCD. If there was a minimum then it would be impossible for him to net his 47 APS. So given the xigncode disable and the auto-gcd disable, there's probably more at work here than what we think.

 

So you have gone from an "average gamer" to "one of the few who cleared everything on HM" - which is it really? I'm curious since you've been switching around trying to tell me that you're average, if you can do it anyone can do it. Now you're telling me you're doing something that maybe 5% of players were able to do? If that's the case you aren't an average gamer, you're one of those anecdotal examples and not representative at all of the "average gamer".

 

Let's put it this way, I have constant 120 FPS and stable 180ms ping. What I cannot compensate for manually but I can with a script as I found out last night is timing. Precise timings that is. In my example of LB4->RB2, what ends up happening is that while I can manually input that combo without issue (usually within 1-2 seconds as per the key recording times), I cannot compensate for the visual effects. So let's say I'm hitting LB 4 times in a row with 50-150ms inbetween (key presses are never consistent, to argue otherwise is absurd, humans aren't machines), some of those will become missed inputs due to the differences in timing. If I pressed say 1-2 at 100ms then 2-3 at 50ms, the increased speed might cause a missed input. This would happen no matter what your ping so ping isn't a factor, if you're pressing faster than the skill can animate then you've got an issue.

 

What does the script do, I can examine exactly where it went wrong and tweak timings. For example, my final LB4 RB2 ended at as: (in delays) 75, 100,100,125, 250, 300 and it would execute flawlessly without any missed inputs. You cannot manually compensate for a difference of 25-50ms. You can with a script. My manual clicks were recorded as the following: 50, 88, 125, 76, 178, 182.

 

I've played this game with sub 70ms ping while back in NA for months, those combos were possible with macros, not without. As I said, human error is the primary cause at work here. Flawless combos require precise execution, a single mis-hit button ruins it. Let's use that BM combo as an example; his is, tab>RB8>LB3>repeat. So tab, then you're going to count 8 RB presses, count 3 LB presses and repeat? You are aware there is a limit of how fast you can track your own movements; you can click faster than you can think of how many times you've clicked already; it's the autonomous nervous system at work where you can move without thinking about it; but when you have to think, it slows down. This can be 'trained' to a degree, but hmm, guess some gamers would make for interesting case studies.

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, swpz said:

-snip-

 

AP/s is a damage calculation (all skills have ap*skill damage modifier), not actions per second. Any common sense (or just looking at the hits on the video) would tell you that it does not mean that he's hitting 47 skills per second.

 

Even when provided with evidence of people hitting combos accurately to a macro level, you fall back to "I cannot do it, thus there must be some foul play involved" -argument. It's like an average piano player claiming that playing Chopin's works on the intended tempos is impossible because he/she can't do it (even though a lot of pianists can).

 

We wiped countless of hours in those early 4man silverfrost dungeons while being undergeared just because we wanted to clear them and wouldn't take "not possible" for an answer. Generally speaking the community has always had insane "minimum AP" requirements to clear content and it's only gotten worse. That is where you and others get the notion that 4man DT "required" 700ap to clear when it was doable with way less if you just learned the mechanics and were willing to die. A lot. Now people recruit 1.2k for ransacked treasury while it really requires only half that damage. Does it mean that everyone doing it on less than 1.2k must be cheating? No, it means they go in regardless and learn the dungeon.

 

What I mean with that I'm an average gamer is that my physique is average, there is nothing exceptional about the way I press buttons (apart from having a good sense of rhythm I guess). What sets me apart from the average BnS player is just the sheer amount of hours I've put into this game and the mindset of not just settling for mediocrity. Deliberate practice does make you better. In the case of the BM example, you'll learn to time the switch from holding rb to lb naturally when you put enough practice into it. That's another concept you ignore in your arguments; you don't click RB 8 times and then click LB 3 times, you hold RB until 8 hits have landed and switch. It requires you only to learn the timing and that can be trained by counting the hits by listening to the audio or just watching the animations. Repeat until you can do it without any thinking. As proven throughout human history, repeating a task over and over again makes you better at it up to the point where bystanders will think of it as inhuman capability. You can see it in action in all fields of expertise, be it a game, an instrument, sports or such. What the best can do, the average can't even imagine to achieve. If you want to read about finger dexterity alone, there are a ton of case studies on professional pianist accuracy. A quickly searched study found that the pianists' mean timing error in their keystrokes was 7ms, compared to that, hitting keys with 25-50ms accuracy in BnS is a joke. You have repeatedly claimed such timing to be impossible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've been using actions per second/minute (as in buttons hit per second) as AP/s(m) throughout the context of our discussion. As such I took that to mean the same thing in the context of that video. Thanks for the correction.

 

No, this is what's called humanly possible and not humanly possible. That is all.

 

I think the BM is a great example of a macro at work, a conflagration tab lasts 3 seconds, the animation time for DT is .4 seconds, he is able to somehow cast 8 DT in those 3 seconds. So in essence, those 8 inputs along with ping caused delay when sending the commands cannot add up to 600ms assuming zero GCD. So what does this leave? In the span of .6 seconds over 3 seconds you have to send 8 inputs, let's assume 30ms ping for the sake of discussion, so you now only have .51 seconds to send all 8 inputs, this leaves 65.5ms as the maximum time per input and must be timed precisely or the animation won't execute exactly after the last one.

 

So what you're arguing is, a sequence of 8 repetitions timed down to 65ms is humanly possible. I'm pretty sure it's not.

 

Also, that video rather proves that there is no minimum GCD (the guy admitted to removing it in the xml after all). If there was a minimum 100ms GCD, it would not be possible to get 8 DT per 1 tab. Other videos of low ping players seem to only get 5-7 DT per tab but these players don't mention anything about removing the GCD. Far as GCD goes, it's entirely possible if you disable it, it doesn't exist; but if you leave it on auto, it's about 100ms. This makes sense and explains the delays I had to use for my script last night when testing. Now, the question is if I want to go the same route, run an xml edit and then test again without GCD. Without GCD, in theory I should be able to net at least 6 DT per tab due to ping differences assuming I enter the combo with perfect timing, just a matter of tweaking the numbers.

 

Another thing I noticed about the auto GCD is that it sticks to specific skills. If you LB 10x then your LB speeds up, if you RB 10x then the RB speeds up. But generally speaking you can't RB 10x in a row without using V+X which is where I noticed the discrepancy. If you change from one to the other, it seems the auto GCD "resets" and everything slows down again. So to loop flawlessly, one has to also remove the GCD.

 

No, the AP requirement was to ensure a minimum DPS to ensure the boss wouldn't enrage. DT required something like 50k DPS with mechanics to ensure you wouldn't wipe to enrage; hence the 700 AP requirement as that was the minimum average required to net said 50k DPS. Some people managed to break 50k with 500 AP, personally I find that suspect given that is so far under the average it's a remarkable phenomenon in it of itself. If it was legit.

 

Holding LB and RB is a terrible idea, you get even less hits in than if you manually input. This is something cleared up years ago at the start, that you should be cancelling RB with RB via another manual input. I don't think this has changed much since then.

 

I can't find that 7ms figure from that link; the fastest tempo the experimenters used was 120ms. The results go on to say that all their participants passed the slow (500ms) and fast (167ms) but most failed the even faster ones of 143, 125 and 120. By the way, again, it's not the same comparison, we're talking about hitting sequential keys at different speeds vs identical keys at precisely identical speeds. The study is interesting though as it does illustrate that anecdotes exist; with the 120ms tempo player; but the fastest average where everyone was successfully error free was at 167ms.

 

edit:

 

Okay let's just say with the GCD a non factor, with manual input (literally spamming RB 15+ times as recorded, but I'm sure that doesn't matter as only 4-7 would have mattered anyways) I net 4-7 (7 highest) DT per tab, this is functionally not different than someone with sub 100ms ping despite the fact that I have double the ping. Now I'll try scripting a combo to see if I can land 8. If I can somehow land 8, then not entirely sure what's going on anymore as 180ms should make this impossible.

 

What this proves? That timing between cancellations matters more than ping. If 180ms ping can net max 7 per tab then 8 is also possible. The 7 no doubt happened due to minute sub 25ms variations in the timings (DT cancellation is somewhere between the 300-350ms mark where a new input will take over the old one and you can do a continuous loop so long as you can time it precisely.

 

Of course how on earth it's possible to hit 7 times in 3 seconds with 180ms ping is another story altogether. I don't understand this at all.

 

Keep in mind this isn't a continuous combo, the RB spam would have broken it anyways.

 

So it's not only macros, but it's the GCD removal. If you macro but don't remove GCD, it's not much of an improvement. If you macro AND remove GCD, it's a world of difference.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The highest "minimum" requirement I can find for old 4man DT is 600ap and it was clearable with way less (crit rate, crit damage and just good players matters here). The numbers are loosely averaged for safe clears in guides. I really don't know where you get 700 from.

 

At least Mhysa is holding RB. You can clearly see the times when he clicks in the slo-mos (also in the comment section he says he times it by listening to the sound). Either way, 8 DTs per tab is indeed possible as the 8th hit only needs to start during the tab. You have 200ms extra room there to lose. You do need a really good ping for all 8 though. Ton of low ping BMs can get it off, so I wouldn't question their legitimacy when they explicitly state that they're not macroing.

 

Also you keep on misunderstanding what the server-side GCD does. It does not add a delay to each of your inputs. It only prevents you from casting 0 cooldown skills at infinite speed. 8 DTs in 3 seconds is one hit every 375ms, Where minimum gcd steps in is sin and lbm etc where you actually have 0 cd on a spammable skill, those you cannot hit so fast anymore even if you disable auto-bias. Instead of showing a cooldown animation for those skills ingame, the amount of them you get off is just capped server-side. And I really don't know why the auto-bias adds so much stutter to people's skill usage, it really shouldn't. It's probably always calculating the gcd to be higher than it should.

 

edit: Also forgot the quote from the pianist case study: The eighth-note interonset intervals (IOIs) associated with each tone were computed from the keyboard MIDI data. The first and last tones of each performance were excluded from both MIDI and movement analyses because they did not have comparable beginnings or endings, respectively. The pianists were very accurate in performing at each prescribed tempo: the mean IOIs were on average within 4% (7 ms) of the prescribed IOIs. 

 

I wager that any professional pianist can hit the same key in sequence with the same timing precision too. Consistently. See, a lot of piano pieces in fact have those sequences where you need to be hitting only a one key repeatedly at incredible speeds. And as stated multiple times, most of anicancels in this game are done with 2-3 keys. It's like playing a really short melody over and over again. If instrument players can achieve sub 10ms accuracy, then how is it impossible for gamers to achieve 25ms timings doing far, far simpler keystroke chains on devices that require far less strength and endurance to "play".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off i start by saying i've been playing BD for bit over a year and im not a hardcore player, just slightly higher than average could probably say.

After seeing that macro for BD swpz showed in one of those videos i can say that it is possible for a human to do at least those particular combos in that speed. However humans are prone to error of course so depending on the person he will eventually do a mistake. Still it is possible to do that, not 100% consistently but almost. I am more or less half of the time able to do the exact same "macros" that BD does in the video. NOT 100% consistently, still close enough for it to not matter if i macro or not. Still near same dps only depending how able i am in doing it consistently at that particular moment which varies since i am a human, on a good day i am able to do the combos pretty much perfectly and i can see a slight boost in damage and this boost is not super significant but still noticeable enough when you clear something 10 seconds faster than usually. Point is, it still is possible to do those combos but not for a long period of times. Max like 15s to a  few minutes probably depending on the person and how skilled he is and by practicing the combos regularly, for example against dummies, you can make yourself better at doing it more consistently. This is only if the person has a very low ping(and is not macroing) as high ping obviously affects your attack speed in varied ways.

 

Problem with macros in my opinion is that it removes the human error. By removing this element anyone can do the exact same combo with perfect precision every single time thus making certain words such as "skilled player" and "beginner player" quite meaningless and you wont know who actually is able to do those combos in those high speeds without macros and who is just an average player.

 

This story isn't exactly proof or related here in any way but here we go:

Long time ago like 6 years ago i was a Halo fan and played multiplayer there every day for hours. After a long time i became really good at it. In fact so good that i was constantly accused of cheating, aimbotting specifically as my movement and speed kinda was that of an aimbotter after playing so long, i was consistently defeating every single opponent in a second or so just with a pistol and a sniper as a weapon. After playing the game for a long time and practicing it i learned a unique or "unique" skill that i like to call as "Ping Compensating Skill". Basically i could with 95% accuracy compensate for almost any latency up to 250ms for both me and the opponent so i was able to know exactly where to shoot to hit him. Include my natural reflexes and speed, yea i was quite unstoppable against regular "average" players. BUT of course i made mistakes here and there, why else would someone been able to kill me at some point. Still being able to do it near perfectly 95% of the time is quite something or rather, inhuman as some would say. Truly tells practice does indeed make you perfect if you do it long enough and have the perseverance and the cabability.

 

All im saying it is possible for some people, not for everyone of course. But because everyone uses macros these days we cannot know which ones and that kinda defeats the original purpose of PVP and such. And that macros do not really give you a boost if you have the ability to be almost as good without them. They do give you an edge if you cannot do the same without macros and your opponent is one of the average players and this is the issue, that is no longer a test of skill to see who is better or if you have the skills to complete a dungeon by doing mechanics right and have the damage to kill the boss before enrage timer. Why use macros to play the game for you? If you like playing the game, play it without macros with your own skills lol. It's way more fun if you are able to do those crazy stuffs without macros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...