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Enemy Silence

Phantom grip should be removed from pvp

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Because it's broken by design and there is no logical or rational defense for it to exist in a player versus player environment. It's not competitive, it's not fair, there is no counter, there is no answer. It requires no effort, no skill, no talent, no condition. It's only prerequisite is range which is much too far for how powerful it is and there is no downside to using it. It wastes time, it forces tab, it's cool down is WAY too quick and overall it's broken.

 

Any other game worth it's salt in pvp would not allow phantom grip (or assassin stealth) without giving it severe restrictions. The overall design behind the move, has no place in an online competitive scene and can't be taken seriously if left alone. This game overall has proven it has no clue how to properly arrange a pvp experience and thus allow moves like this to exist. In a balanced competitive game, there are downsides or ways to avoid terrible situations, no matter which class/character you pick. Phantom grip may not deal damage, but it's utility is far beyond the scope of feasible competition.

 

Losing control of your character, to a move that can't be seen, can't be guessed, can't be avoided is unacceptable. It wreaks of poor game design and terrible battle/combat directing. If you must keep the move in the game, then design a prerequisite for this move to become available. The aggressor must Stun or Daze in order to phantom grip their opponent. This is a step in the right direction but not enough. While the opponent is phantom grip'd the aggressor cannot move and cool down are also frozen. It's better to just remove it from pvp and keep broken gameplay elements like that, in the PVE experience. I'm not responding to debate, there is no logical argument that can be made for a move with no downside in pvp.

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Nivalias   

It's already been taken care of. In KR Phantom Grip has longer cast time which gives you the opportunity to iFrame it. Just wait for a few skill patches.

 

Besides, there is a counter, it's called "Reversal", even though it doesn't work against Force Masters very well.

Edited by Nivalias

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Like @Nivalias said, you can actually counter some skills (pretty much the CCs) an enemy would use during phantom grip. The only thing that could be called broken that I know of involving phantom grip is the FM grab -> throw -> wallbang, and that's just strong because wallbang is actually broken. Apart from that, phantom grip is like any other defense piercing CC: you need to predict and iframe it. 

 

4 hours ago, Enemy Silence said:

I'm not responding to debate, there is no logical argument that can be made for a move with no downside in pvp.

See, this is the part that annoys me. Basically just: "waah I know I'm right because, as it's so obvious from my post, I have deep knowledge of how the game works". Just so you know, it actually has downsides that you need to look out for:
1) Use it in 1v1 and if you're against certain classes (FM, BD, BM, SIN, SUM) and you're not careful you're going to get CCed by their escapes or the cat if you're against SUM (or getting impacted if you're frozen while grabbing FM).

2) Use it in 3v3 and an enemy can tag in and CC you since you can only use SS, Q, E for iframes and none of your normal skills.

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Dad   

You even play MKX or street fighter at all?

 

Well since you don't want any debate you might as well do what your own user name stated.

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Egoist00   

We should add an extra cast animation for the BD-Des spin, so range class know when to attack.......and so on.........

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2 minutes ago, Egoist00 said:

We should add an extra cast animation for the BD-Des spin, so range class know when to attack.......and so on.........

I know, right? Ranged characters should just be able to pve everything :^)

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It should have prerequisite just like a destroyer's grab. Amount of time it can stall, amount of damage it can cause, safety & utility it provides are just too much for a simple fail-safe, instacast, ranged, freebie skill.

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Just now, SauronTheGreat said:

It should have prerequisite just like a destroyer's grab. Amount of time it can stall, amount of damage it can cause, safety & utility it provides are just too much for a simple fail-safe, instacast, ranged, freebie skill.

Destroyer grab has a lower cooldown because of that. What do you mean about damage? Phantom grip skills don't deal much damage.

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36 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

Destroyer grab has a lower cooldown

Only if our opponents were perma-cced dummies ...

A blade dancer has access to phantom grip much frequently than a destroyer to grab.

36 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

What do you mean about damage? Phantom grip skills don't deal much damage.

I said '' cause '' ... not '' deal ''.

 

 

Edited by SauronTheGreat

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Just now, Chara Dreemurr said:

Then any CC can cause much damage to the CCed player.

I don't know any other cc that lasts 6 seconds, activates extra finisher skills to follow up with another dps combo, extra high damage skills for allies or defense reduction on target and reflects the damage you would receive to the grabbed person ... 

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2 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

I don't know any other cc that lasts 6 seconds, activates extra finisher skills to follow up with another dps combo, extra high damage skills for allies or defense reduction on target and reflects the damage you would receive to the grabbed person ... 

If you're talking about the restrain phantom grip, that's only available to BD and it's on a 30s cooldown. All of the grip CCs can be countered, except for throw. Restrain in 3v3 only works if a team is asleep and doesn't save their ally AND if someone just used their escape and decided to stay even though there is a BD in the other team. I really don't see a problem with reflecting damage from the frontal block to the grabbed person. Just go behind the BD and CC or simply use a defense piercing CC.

 

I don't know how people can complain about stuff like this, when there are other things that are actually broken in this game.

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2 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

If you're talking about the restrain phantom grip, that's only available to BD and it's on a 30s cooldown. All of the grip CCs can be countered, except for throw. Restrain in 3v3 only works if a team is asleep and doesn't save their ally AND if someone just used their escape and decided to stay even though there is a BD in the other team. I really don't see a problem with reflecting damage from the frontal block to the grabbed person. Just go behind the BD and CC or simply use a defense piercing CC.

Too many world-shaking tips for some '' simple fail-safe, instacast, ranged, freebie skill ''.

 

Again i say : Phantom grip should have prerequisite just like destroyer's grab. Noone is really asking for your '' deep knowledge '' about what to do during gripped state.

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Just now, SauronTheGreat said:

Too many world-shaking tips for some '' simple fail-safe, instacast, ranged, freebie skill ''.

 

Again i say : Phantom grip should have prerequisite just like destroyer's grab. Noone is really asking for your '' deep knowledge '' about what to do during gripped state.

You can predict and iframe it, especially the BD phantom grip since it has an 8m range. Using a defense piercing skill against a block is "deep knowledge"? You keep saying how strong it is, but when somebody tells you how to deal with it, you say you don't want to know?

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2 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

You can predict and iframe it, especially the BD phantom grip since it has an 8m range. Using a defense piercing skill against a block is "deep knowledge"? You keep saying how strong it is, but when somebody tells you how to deal with it, you say you don't want to know?

Predict ? No, thanks. I like reactive gameplay rather than mindlessly spamming i-frames and praying for luck. I also suggest you to practice on reacting/countering stuff if you want to get out of mid-silver.

It's obvious that you have never played destroyer. So you seriously consider phantom grip as just another basic cc skill, proving exactly my point about how it's so easy and simple to cast.

 

Again i say : Phantom grip should have prerequisite just like destroyer's grab.

 

Even the grandmom of the next guy knows the options during a grippled state, so you can keep it to yourself and start practicing as most people are already way past your imagination. Spamming these stuff like some '' big deal '' is just hilarious, especially when people you are refering to are speaking about it's accessibility ( prerequisite, risk, effort to initiate ), not what to do afterwards. Otherwise, the topic would also include destroyer's grab as the options you have during a grabbed and phantom gripped state are the same.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

Predict ? No, thanks. I like reactive gameplay rather than mindlessly spamming i-frames and praying for luck. I also suggest you to practice on reacting/countering stuff if you want to get out of mid-silver.

You're telling ME that I'm mid-silver but you're the one who doesn't want to learn how to predict skills, which is necessary at higher ratings. Mindlessly spamming iframes is not predicting btw.
 

10 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

It's obvious that you have never played destroyer. So you seriously consider phantom grip as just another basic cc skill, proving exactly my point about how it's so easy and simple to cast.

 

Again i say : Phantom grip should have prerequisite just like destroyer's grab.

From a prerequisite perspective and if we're only talking about avoiding it, it IS like any other defense piercing CC skill. Since we've established that the grab itself is not what deals damage, but the followup, I still don't understand why you keep acting like it's such an op skill. The fact that it can be used to stall seems just right on BD since it's a single escape class.

 

19 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

Even the grandmom of the next guy knows the options during a grippled state, so you can keep it to yourself and start practicing as most people are already way past your imagination.

Here you're just being condescending for no reason.

 

20 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

Spamming these stuff like some '' big deal '' is just hilarious, especially when people you are refering to are speaking about it's accessibility ( prerequisite, risk, effort to initiate ), not what to do afterwards. Otherwise, the topic would also include destroyer's grab as the options you have during a grabbed and phantom gripped state are the same.

 

Basically, you don't want anyone to tell you how to deal with it and you just want to complain about it. Just like you said, it's not a simple CC so you can do things after you have been grabbed. Just like I said, you can avoid it like you would avoid any other defense piercing CC. Also, I have mentioned the risks in 1v1 and 3v3 in a previous post.

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25 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

You're telling ME that I'm mid-silver but you're the one who doesn't want to learn how to predict skills, which is necessary at higher ratings. Mindlessly spamming iframes is not predicting btw.

I see you are really carried away by this '' prediction '' thing, you can't even realize how ridiculous it sounds ...

You have an insta-cast i-frame, opponent have a insta-cast cc ( phantom grip ). You i-framed it because you '' predicted '' it ? Nope. The reason you i-framed/resisted it is simply because you first pressed the i-frame skill and the opponent failed to react to your i-frame and casted his phantom grip right into it.

 

You were just lucky to have a bad opponent. Because, it's his fault not being able to react to your i-frame. In higher ratings ( though, i don't think you can reach at this state ), you won't have such bad opponents, trust me. You will keep wasting your i-frames for no reason. Without improving your reaction/countering, you are doomed to stay at mid-silver.

33 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

 

From a prerequisite perspective and if we're only talking about avoiding it, it IS like any other defense piercing CC skill. Since we've established that the grab itself is not what deals damage, but the followup, I still don't understand why you keep acting like it's such an op skill.

Again, i don't know any other cc skill that is ranged, insta-cast, pierce both defense/deflect/parry with 6 seconds disable on the top of having a huge tooltip with many possibilities/extra options. Are you still seriously comparing it to some 2-3 seconds stun/daze cc ? Get a hold of yourself ...

I don't see anyone complaining about destroyer's grab. So you should 've already grasped that the problem is the accessibility of phantom grip, not the effect. It's ranged, insta-cast, fail-safe with no prerequisite unlike '' grab ''.

59 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

The fact that it can be used to stall seems just right on BD since it's a single escape class.

Flock of blades ...

 

1 hour ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

 

Here you're just being condescending for no reason.

 

You have been condescending since the start of the thread. You are persistently trying to lecture people over stuff which everyone already knows, which noone even asked for, which are already irrelevant.

Not hard to see through your intent to indirectly insult people. Example below :

1 hour ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

Basically, you don't want anyone to tell you how to deal with it and you just want to complain about it.

Still going on acting like "waah I know I'm right because, as it's so obvious from my post, I have deep knowledge of how the game works" ... persistently trying to lecture people over something which isn't even the subject in the first place.

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2 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

I see you are really carried away by this '' prediction '' thing, you can't even realize how ridiculous it sounds ...

You have an insta-cast i-frame, opponent have a insta-cast cc ( phantom grip ). You i-framed it because you '' predicted '' it ? Nope. The reason you i-framed/resisted it is simply because you first pressed the i-frame skill and the opponent failed to react to your i-frame and casted his phantom grip right into it.

 

You were just lucky to have a bad opponent. Because, it's his fault not being able to react to your i-frame. In higher ratings ( though, i don't think you can reach at this state ), you won't have such bad opponents, trust me. You will keep wasting your i-frames for no reason. Without improving your reaction/countering, you are doomed to stay at mid-silver.

So the fact that you knew your opponent would use that skill and you used an iframe to resist it, just as they used it is not called prediction?

 

3 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

Again, i don't know any other cc skill that is ranged, insta-cast, pierce both defense/deflect/parry with 6 seconds disable on the top of having a huge tooltip with many possibilities/extra options. Are you still seriously comparing it to some 2-3 seconds stun/daze cc ? Get a hold of yourself ...

I don't see anyone complaining about destroyer's grab. So you should 've already grasped that the problem is the accessibility of phantom grip, not the effect. It's ranged, insta-cast, fail-safe with no prerequisite unlike '' grab ''.

And I even started the paragraph with "From a prerequisite perspective and if we're only talking about avoiding it". Are you just going to ignore that? What I mean by this is that you can avoid it like you would avoid a defense piercing CC. 

 

6 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

Flock of blades ...

Really now... Because somebody is totally going to grab you after they CC locked you. Are you gonna call KFM a 2 escape class as well now? What about BM?

 

7 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

You have been condescending since the start of the thread. You are persistently trying to lecture people over stuff which everyone already knows, which noone even asked for, which are already irrelevant.

Not hard to see through your intent to indirectly insult people. Example below :

So you can read my mind and know my intent now? I am trying to be detailed in explaining what I mean. It's better to explain exactly what you mean than having to repeat yourself later because somebody may not have understood what you meant.

If everyone already knew this stuff, they wouldn't complain about phantom grip in the first place.

 

7 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

Still going on acting like "waah I know I'm right because, as it's so obvious from my post, I have deep knowledge of how the game works" ... persistently trying to lecture people over something which isn't even the subject in the first place.

Are you just going to take that out of context? Why don't you check the OP's part to which my reply was meant for? It's the part where he says he doesn't want any debate and that there is no logical argument for phantom grip. Someone who says that, doesn't know much about this game. It's just irritating when someone just states something incorrect and acts as if it's a fact and then doesn't want to see any new information.

I don't know why you feel I'm lecturing anyone when all I've been doing is trying to explain why phantom grip isn't this insanely overpowered skill that should requires 5s cast time and the target being CCed as prerequisites. 

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Just now, Chara Dreemurr said:

So the fact that you knew your opponent would use that skill and you used an iframe to resist it, just as they used it is not called prediction?

'' Just as ? '' there is no such thing. If you resisted it, this means you pressed earlier and he hit it right into your i-frame. Simple as that. You are not '' Nostradamus '' sorry, it's opponent's mistake hitting into an already casted i-frame.

 

12 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

 

And I even started the paragraph with "From a prerequisite perspective and if we're only talking about avoiding it". Are you just going to ignore that? What I mean by this is that you can avoid it like you would avoid a defense piercing CC. 

 

'' i don't know any other cc skill that is ranged, insta-cast, pierce both defense/deflect/parry with 6 seconds disable on the top of having a huge tooltip with many possibilities/extra options. Are you still seriously comparing it to some 2-3 seconds stun/daze cc ? Get a hold of yourself ... ''

I think it's pretty clear enough.

15 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

Really now... Because somebody is totally going to grab you after they CC locked you. Are you gonna call KFM a 2 escape class as well now? What about BM?

By that logic, destroyer is also a single escape class. Against a bd i.e. you spend your time mostly grippled or knocked up/down since persistence only works against stun/daze.

19 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

So you can read my mind and know my intent now? I am trying to be detailed in explaining what I mean. It's better to explain exactly what you mean than having to repeat yourself later because somebody may not have understood what you meant.

If everyone already knew this stuff, they wouldn't complain about phantom grip in the first place.

You directly started with your irrelevant lectures about what someone can do if grippled/grabbed while OP was instead clearly speaking about phantom grip's accessibility, not the effect. The topic is not named as '' Grab & Phantom grip should be removed from pvp ''. Your attempt at insult is pretty obvious there, persistently spamming basics of something irrelevant, trying to make it look like we were some complete ignorants unaware of grab/grip/grapple feature as whole.

 

50 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

Are you just going to take that out of context? Why don't you check the OP's part to which my reply was meant for? It's the part where he says he doesn't want any debate and that there is no logical argument for phantom grip. Someone who says that, doesn't know much about this game. It's just irritating when someone just states something incorrect and acts as if it's a fact and then doesn't want to see any new information.

No matter how weisenheimer it sounds, you haven't been able to provide a counter-argument against his point. You have never said anything regarding the subject ( accessibility, effort to initiate, risk/reward ), you instead have been spamming some irrelevant nonsense you call '' details '' and you act just worse than how his '' last phrase '' sounds ... at least he has a point ( which still stands ).

 

59 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

Phantom grip isn't this insanely overpowered skill that should requires 5s cast time and the target being CCed as prerequisites. 

But, destroyer's grab is ... right ?

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@SauronTheGreat
Ok dude, I give up. There's no way to convince you that Phantom Grip isn't the game-breaking, overpowered skill you think it is. When you start saying how destroyer can be considered a one escape class vs blade dancer, that's when you know that this discussion has gone to a place where it's not going to come back from. If after everything I've said you still think that everything the OP said is true, then fine, keep having that opinion even though it's far away from reality. Continuing is just pointless right now.

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Aurinya   

Greetings,

 

Since the arguments in this thread have long been exhausted and it has derailed into mainly a verbal PvP ground, I am locking this thread up. Please remember to always discuss the issue at hand, not each other, and to always keep your posts on topic and civil.

 

Thank you!

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