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Reiko

Can some change the tombstone tab back

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Reiko   

I am not liking this update and the response I get it this " Thank you for contacting the Blade & Soul Support Team.

I’m sorry to hear that you are unsatisfied with the update with the skill of the gunslinger Tombstone. This change was done based on players' collective feedback and from the decisions of our development team.

However, if you have any suggestions then I highly encourage you to post your feedback on our forums. This way, other players can discuss the topic with you. Our development team also takes note of these discussions when reviewing feedback on these events. You can join the forums at:

https://forums.bladeandsoul.com/en/

If you have any further questions or other concerns, please feel free to contact us again."

 

I am not adding the admin that said this due to reasons but I am not liking the response

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Way too many Fire gunners are losing their minds over what is essentially a minor inconvenience. Takes very little time to get used to the changes... and it's not really ruining anything. Less focus on mindless DPS and more on paying attention to your skills and it's a breeze to pick up. The class is still dirt simple to use in regards to play-style even with these changes.

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8 hours ago, Reiko said:

I am not liking this update

What's your reasoning for wanting to change tombstone back to the way it was before? You didn't give any argument / reasoning / supporting evidence. "I don't like it" doesn't cut it, because I could just as well say "I like it, don't change it".

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REDSERA   

Ping and party assist,etc below.

 

High ping makes it impossible to use 4 within the limited time to target multiple enemies. The ping would also cause your key press to register too late or not register at all. Worst is the lag in high count mobs and large 12 party members is going to cause lag and even freeze, thus cancelling / denying bullet storm. Used to be able to spray and pray even when the game lags, finding the party being still alive fortunately.

 

In regards to party assist, we try to thin out the boss HP as much as we can with bullet storm. Even using skill 4 separately to DPS as much as possible, allowing the party to finish off the boss. After bullet storm, it is the gunner's job to keep watch of everyone's skills. When we notice everyone needing to wait for their cool down, we will use our Z skill to remove everyone's cools down.

 

Including carries as I always used the bullet storm as an emergency to protect my low level friends in my party through story quests and dungeons, especially newbies and friends that I'm trying to have them join and even take premium membership (especially since PUBG, Overwatch, Dota 2, CSGO, etc are already a staple)

 

By doing any changes which diminish our performance, it would make it difficult for us to assist in parties, get more players and so forth.

 

In my country, Ragnarok online diminished eventhough it became F2P due to insufficient players. Same could happen to B&S too.

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On 2018-03-23 at 10:35 PM, REDSERA said:

High ping makes it impossible to use 4 within the limited time to target multiple enemies. The ping would also cause your key press to register too late or not register at all. Worst is the lag in high count mobs and large 12 party members is going to cause lag and even freeze, thus cancelling / denying bullet storm. Used to be able to spray and pray even when the game lags, finding the party being still alive fortunately.

In regards to party assist, we try to thin out the boss HP as much as we can with bullet storm. Even using skill 4 separately to DPS as much as possible, allowing the party to finish off the boss. After bullet storm, it is the gunner's job to keep watch of everyone's skills. When we notice everyone needing to wait for their cool down, we will use our Z skill to remove everyone's cools down.

Including carries as I always used the bullet storm as an emergency to protect my low level friends in my party through story quests and dungeons, especially newbies and friends that I'm trying to have them join and even take premium membership (especially since PUBG, Overwatch, Dota 2, CSGO, etc are already a staple)

By doing any changes which diminish our performance, it would make it difficult for us to assist in parties, get more players and so forth.

In my country, Ragnarok online diminished eventhough it became F2P due to insufficient players. Same could happen to B&S too.

I don't know what ping you play at, but I sometimes get up to 300 ms and do not have a problem targeting things. If your game freezes / lags, you can't bullet storm anyways, don't see how not being able to use 4 is different.

"Thn out the boss HP" isn't what I'd call party assist, that's "killing" the boss. You are still doing basically the same dps, if your party is relying entirely on bullet storm to kill bosses, there's something wrong. And AC (Z) doesn't reset all cool down, just specific skills, usually party buffs. But why would you "wait" for party buffs anyways, you should still be dpsing. And why do you need to watch everyone's skills? they should all have used it from the get go, you use it after about 10 seconds in to make sure everyone has had time to use them (since you were bullet storming, you couldn't do it earlier). It sounds like an issue with the way you kill bosses and not with bullet storm itself.

I don't know how bullet storm can "protect" others, it's a damage skill, not a party protect skill. Unless you mean killing the mobs before they die. Fair enough, but the question then becomes, why'd you guys pull so many that required a "need to kill them all right the F now". And since you mentioned story quest, which is able to be easily solo'ed, you are requiring bullet storm to save your hide. There's something wrong here.

Buffs and nerfs come, it's just the way it is. And as pointed out before the dps is about the same, and all other utilities are still the same. I don't see how that could have resulted in a more difficult time in parties, or to get more players. Players will come if they want to come. Saying that a player comes based on a single change is far fetched.

 

I don't know about which RO you are talking about, but I'm certainly RO died because of many other factors like it being really really old, private servers and newer, funner games came out. Not because of a single change to a class.

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REDSERA   

Racing Wing, good day. Thanks for your reply. Hope this helps.

 

It's good to hear that your 300 ms isn't an issue for you. Unfortunately, while playing with friends in location of shared network (cybercafe, friends' places, computer club, our usual group together, etc) , the effect of the Ping is high, especially when we have multiple parties joining us too. (Trying to get more people to play with us. The more, the merrier.)

 

Used to be able to bullet strong even while lags (without skill 4), thus sprayed and prayed in the past, saving the party.

 

Thinning out the hp of the boss is important as hp of bosses can range up to the millions. Kindly understand that the new players joining us are still learning, consisting of gunner and non-gunner classes, some even just 2 weeks in play, with new guys/gals coming and leaving. They're not wrong, just new, so we need to give the new players a chance by carrying them.

 

As a gunner, I will let my party focus on the boss. My fire squad of gunners will clear out the boss' mobs/traps/units as support gunners (we're not lone rangers) , allowing the rest to focus on the boss. Only time my fire squad will proceed back to the boss is when we're sure the mobs are gone.

 

Yes, not all skills will reset with Alpha call, but having the effected skills being completely cooled off allows a more efficient party performance. Sometimes my party  members will call out for Alpha Call verbally as they sit beside me in the cybercafe/club/etc), so I will give it to them.

 

In regards to quests/raids/etc, we also try to play together. There can be times when our new members (and even experienced members) can make mistakes and its normal, thus we try to protect one another. Gunner class helps protect our players as escorts and ambushes, since the long range helps us get to the enemies better. Once the new players are familiar with combat, control, etc, we let them do as they please and after their raids/etc, they can come back to us for more tips.

 

That's how we keep players. We don't bully or discourage the newbies or other classes. As different classes and races, we work together as teams.

 

About RO, yes, not a single class. As I stated, due to insufficient players thus the more players we can get (yes, we may need to carry them for some duration), the better the survival of Blade and Soul.

 

There are just so many FPS games and players (Overwatch, CSGo, RB6, etc) that its hard to get new players in MMORPG. The gunner class actually interest FPS players to play in this MMORPG. It's this aspect of being able to play as a Gunner in B&S that made many of my FPS colleagues, including myself join and stay in B&S.

 

Hope this helps. Thank you.

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13 hours ago, REDSERA said:

It's good to hear that your 300 ms isn't an issue for you. Unfortunately, while playing with friends in location of shared network (cybercafe, friends' places, computer club, our usual group together, etc) , the effect of the Ping is high, especially when we have multiple parties joining us too. (Trying to get more people to play with us. The more, the merrier.)

Used to be able to bullet strong even while lags (without skill 4), thus sprayed and prayed in the past, saving the party.

Thinning out the hp of the boss is important as hp of bosses can range up to the millions. Kindly understand that the new players joining us are still learning, consisting of gunner and non-gunner classes, some even just 2 weeks in play, with new guys/gals coming and leaving. They're not wrong, just new, so we need to give the new players a chance by carrying them.

As a gunner, I will let my party focus on the boss. My fire squad of gunners will clear out the boss' mobs/traps/units as support gunners (we're not lone rangers) , allowing the rest to focus on the boss. Only time my fire squad will proceed back to the boss is when we're sure the mobs are gone.

Yes, not all skills will reset with Alpha call, but having the effected skills being completely cooled off allows a more efficient party performance. Sometimes my party  members will call out for Alpha Call verbally as they sit beside me in the cybercafe/club/etc), so I will give it to them.

In regards to quests/raids/etc, we also try to play together. There can be times when our new members (and even experienced members) can make mistakes and its normal, thus we try to protect one another. Gunner class helps protect our players as escorts and ambushes, since the long range helps us get to the enemies better. Once the new players are familiar with combat, control, etc, we let them do as they please and after their raids/etc, they can come back to us for more tips.

That's how we keep players. We don't bully or discourage the newbies or other classes. As different classes and races, we work together as teams.

About RO, yes, not a single class. As I stated, due to insufficient players thus the more players we can get (yes, we may need to carry them for some duration), the better the survival of Blade and Soul.

There are just so many FPS games and players (Overwatch, CSGo, RB6, etc) that its hard to get new players in MMORPG. The gunner class actually interest FPS players to play in this MMORPG. It's this aspect of being able to play as a Gunner in B&S that made many of my FPS colleagues, including myself join and stay in B&S.

Hope this helps. Thank you.

- Ah so your mention of keeping players is within your circle of friends, not BnS as a whole. Fair enough. Certainly having everyone on the same connection would result in higher ping for everyone regardless of the original ping. That unfortunately isn't able to be worked around with. As you have made the decision to all play together on one connection (I assume that's the case), then you will have to deal with the draw backs that comes with it, in this case, high ping for everyone.

- I understand that you have high ping, still that should not be preventing you from using 4 before hand. I am assuming that you are doing open world mobs from what you have mentioned, and those shouldn't require bullet storm to kill. Certainly it's easier with bullet storm, but unload will work just as well.

- For AC, it's great that you guys sit beside each other. Much better than having to type in game.

- Of course, it's good to play together and show new players the ropes. But as mentioned before, for open world mobs, unload is plenty enough. If you are doing dungeons, yes bullet storm makes it easier to clear mobs but it's not a necessity. You can still clear with unload.

 

I don't know the exact thing that you and your friends are doing so I had to assume alot of stuff. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt but I still don't see how this change prevents you from doing content.

 

 

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REDSERA   

Hi Racing Wind, thanks for understanding.

 

In regards to how this change prevents us from doing content, it will actually effect all race and classes.

 

Bullet storm was made by developers, not the community. That itself is already a big concern.

 

There has to be a reason this job class and skill was made and most importantly, the surrounding hidden and future update content around gunner and our skills which are currently kept from us all.

 

Sure, there are Korean servers and news with up-to-date info.

 

But how about even further in the future? Especially things kept hidden in the preps.

 

We call this Pandora's box.

 

There are monsters, quests, tactics etc that were already planned/created/approved for the gunslinger class to assist in before the update and even before launch/reveal of gunslinger class.

 

The developers won't be just throwing away their hard work. It would be a loss to their content and the high cost involved in development. Further tweaking of these would just be a rush to the due date line as well as higher cost as they'd need employees to focus on the changes instead of new content.

 

It just takes a Pandora (event, deadline, company situation, etc) to open the Pandora box and all this hidden content to ambush us of all races, jobclass, etc.

 

The scarier part of the Pandora Box is that there was suppose to be a "blessing" to balance out all the chaos but it got blocked and sealed in just a minor second from releasing due to the Pandora needing to quickly shut the Box.

 

Thus anything which nerfs/effects/decrease efficiency in our class, would effect other classes. In turn, anything which nerfs/effects/decrease other classes will effect gunners too.

 

The scariest part: There is a Pandora box for every class.

 

We need each other (race/class/ player experience/etc) to prevent this multiple Pandora Boxes when they are released.

 

Thank you.

 

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21 hours ago, REDSERA said:

In regards to how this change prevents us from doing content, it will actually effect all race and classes.

Bullet storm was made by developers, not the community. That itself is already a big concern.

There has to be a reason this job class and skill was made and most importantly, the surrounding hidden and future update content around gunner and our skills which are currently kept from us all.

Sure, there are Korean servers and news with up-to-date info.

But how about even further in the future? Especially things kept hidden in the preps.

We call this Pandora's box.

There are monsters, quests, tactics etc that were already planned/created/approved for the gunslinger class to assist in before the update and even before launch/reveal of gunslinger class.

The developers won't be just throwing away their hard work. It would be a loss to their content and the high cost involved in development. Further tweaking of these would just be a rush to the due date line as well as higher cost as they'd need employees to focus on the changes instead of new content.

It just takes a Pandora (event, deadline, company situation, etc) to open the Pandora box and all this hidden content to ambush us of all races, jobclass, etc.

The scarier part of the Pandora Box is that there was suppose to be a "blessing" to balance out all the chaos but it got blocked and sealed in just a minor second from releasing due to the Pandora needing to quickly shut the Box.

Thus anything which nerfs/effects/decrease efficiency in our class, would effect other classes. In turn, anything which nerfs/effects/decrease other classes will effect gunners too.

The scariest part: There is a Pandora box for every class.

We need each other (race/class/ player experience/etc) to prevent this multiple Pandora Boxes when they are released.

Thank you.

- Definitely the change affects game play, especially one where it isn't just a damage change, but a mechanics change. There is no denying this, sure, but it doesn't prevent you from doing content. What it does is prevent you from doing content with a very specific way. Although it's always better to give players options, but sometimes balance needs calls for the elimination of some of these choices.

- Why would bullet storm being developed by devs and not community a problem? Many games out there have closed development, from WoW to LoL to OW. They are all closed development. The devs looks at player feedback, looks at the data to see if it supports player claims. Then they come up with ways to fix it. There is no player involvement in the pipeline, we as players merely give feedback, but it's the devs that actually decides on anything. This isn't to say they don't care about players, but it's a matter of "logistics". It's just not practical to have a development pipe when you need to have every (or almost every) player chime in to give their two cents. And there will be thousands of "two cents", how are you going to pick the one to implement? You then need to have a vote and more logistics and more waiting. This slows development / fine tuning (aka game balancing) to a snail pace. And in the end, you ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ every single player off expect for the ones whose suggestion you've implemented. You can point out examples where this has worked. Yes, that's great, but look at the big picture, more often than not, there is no player involvement in the development pipe simply because it's not feasible.

- There is definitely a reason why bullet storm as a skill is the way it is. However, devs aren't perfect, and they aren't able to foresee every scenario. Concerns about the lethal effectiveness of bullet storm in pvp is something they may have missed while designing the gunner skill set. Which is why there are balance patches / fixes in an attempt to address these issues.

- I do not agree that devs sould design content around a specific skill. It just does not make sense. Designing entire game content and mechanics around a single specific skill not only locks you into an extremely narrow design space, but also what happens to all the other classes? Do we just design every thing around bullet storm, make it as easy to use as possible, make it hit as hard as possible, make it clear mobs as fast as possible, with no regards to other classes, to awakened dragonchar for clearing mobs, to ripple punch + whirlwind, to sunflower, to other classes's aoe clearing. Do those not matter? And it's not like you can no longer use bullet storm for clearing mobs anymore. Since devs don't design content around a specific skill, I still fail to see how a small reduced performance on a skill prevents you from doing content. There are other ways, have you explored them yet?

- The pandora's box analogy is... unique to say the least. But I believe your fear is unfounded. That is what balance patches are for. And those "future" content you talked about? They would get changed according to the current situation. An example of your "pandora's box" is that bosses are able to cleanse the concentrated fire from 4, preventing you from using bullet storm, but does that prevent you from doing damage? Maybe, if you are in a dps race. This is something that the devs didn't think of when they made the change, something they missed. But that doesn't really matter, because in the next patch it gets fixed, at least judging from the KR info.

- With every skill change, there will be an adjustment period, one should be finding ways to make things work instead of asking for reversion, it was changed for a reason. Sometimes they don't work, then we give feedback to the devs, they look at the data they have to see if it supports player claims and make adjustments as THEY see necessary and appropriate.

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REDSERA   

Balance can be achieved by boosting other classes and other aspects. Not via eliminating choices, nerfing, forcing additional requirements before skills usage, etc. In turn, doing boosting will help other classes (non-gunner) as they get the stats/help/etc they really need and been asking for. In terms of party performance, this will be a big help as we got different classes doing their part even better with the boosts.

Even bigger effect is during parties against the world bosses.

Example, party's tank boosted to be able to tank longer, warlock able to cast faster, etc.

 

Elimination of choices, nerfing, etc causes rot to every job class. Sure, it may start small and slow ,like an additional button and small nerf. Yet this will snowball as more of these downgrades continue to be added. Example, overwatch mercy got skill nerfed, and as small downgrades continued, the healer class suffer, to the point that nerfing has become a famous meme, even for other job classes and games.

 

Yes, closed development is present thus it is our part as end users to share our experiences. As you stated, the devs didn't perfectly catch the issues before release thus we have to share this issue of this topic. The adjustment was suppose to only effect PVP but ended up effecting PVE as well. If it was an ignorable issue, the gunners wouldn't be saying anything about it.

 

True everything isn't and cannot designed just around bullet storm. Yet it can also be the other way round where bullet storm and other gunner skills are designed and must be present to help the party too. Like how E helps transport gunners to steam switches to trigger for the Gatling gun boss, or to a downed teamed member needing chi assist. Even 2 which helps in those bosses and mobs which love to jump stun the party. Bullet storm used to allow us to use E to get to a mob, bullet storm, use E again and do the same with other mobs at another side. Not possible with the 4 now. Gunner's C is AOE but it's static and only at a small area.

 

The AOE skills from different job classes which you have stated are of great importance as we are dependent on them too. Gunners and non-gunners need to take turns on casting these mob control skills due to cool down, especially for bosses which like to rapid spawn mobs. As stated before, we got Alpha Call but it won't restore all skills. Gunners need the skill set of their own as well as of other classes.

 

Yes, there are other ways but having tombstone as an additional help and contribution does make things smoother. It's like having a secondary weapon when the primary weapon is empty.

 

Edit:

 

Sorry, it took some time  to gather the "finding ways to make things work instead of asking for reversion" which we did before:

 

1. Emailed Support regarding the Ping issue. Max from Tech Support replied that he couldnt assist us.

 

2. Played at other locations. We tried different cybercafes, houses, etc but Ping is still diminishing our shadow gunners.

 

3. Brought PCs to a party's business office to and test run. Same issue.

 

4. Did some research on gunners and found out Fire Gunners don't suffer from the Ping issue as much.

 

5. Shadow gunners changed their elements to fire element due to the ping issue. Some left though for other job class and games as they didn't like the issue.

 

6. Took lots of trial and error to get our guys back up to performance. Plenty times, we do die as we hadn't got used to fire gunner and still unconciously pressing shadow gunner combos.

 

7. Change of tactics to fit the new fire gunner squad. Had to introduce this new tactic and combat rules to newbies too, That was one hell of a mess to both the newbies and experienced. Some rage quit but some stayed.

 

8. Fire gunner squad now ready to assisit other job class as well as newbies.

 

....And after the update:

 

a. Bullet storm couldn't be activated via Tab + F. We had to search for hours in youtube, forums, google,etc on whether Bullet Storm disappeared or not. Worst was the change for 2 was shown in the Hong Moon Training room but we couldn't find any about bulletstorm thus suspicions that Gunner is being slowly cancelled / nerfed.

 

b. Finally found the new requirement of needing skill 4 to target (by accident). Trying to not forget to input 4 for bullet storm was another hell to handle. Had to do even further testing on when and how the new bullet storm can be used.

 

c. Had to revise the tactics again. Not too many were happy (both gunners and non-gunners) about this and left, deciding to disband the allocated funds we collected for premium membership to buy other stuff from other games (CSGo skins, Dota stuff,etc). Why bother to play further or even pay for premium when we already tried different methods to fix this.

 

...So there went half my party, going back to RB (further pulled by new zombie mode), CSgo, Overwatch, Dota,etc.

 

Thank you.

Edited by REDSERA
Update and grammar issues. thanks.

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Reiko   

if you ppl don't like my post on the forum please leave or better yet don't even bother posting stuff on stuff I suggest

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On 3/29/2018 at 11:06 PM, Reiko said:

if you ppl don't like my post on the forum please leave or better yet don't even bother posting stuff on stuff I suggest

If you don't like the changes to gunslinger, please leave the class.

 

Joking aside, they're not going to be changing things anytime soon... other than a couple minor tweaks. Korea's had this change for a while and the players there have learned to adapt. Your options are to get used to the changes (which frankly are not difficult to learn), change combat style to focus on non-burst combat (commonly known as the "Unload" build) or, as I teased earlier, stop playing Fire Gunner if you can't do either.

 

But telling people you don't agree with to not bother posting? I'm sorry, but expecting everyone to just agree with you and telling everyone else to "GTFO" is just stroking your ego in an echo chamber. If you want that, open a word processing program and type out your own complaints, then reply to them yourself.

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Aurinya   

Greetings,

 

For the sake of the longevity of your thread, please remember our Code of Conduct and discuss the Gunslinger issue at hand, not each other.

 

Thank you!

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