raiking

Why nerf Gunners?

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raiking   
55 minutes ago, Windy said:

10% dps is even too few, if you ask me ,around 25% would be even better.Yet I don't think this would happen straight-they need to sell the lyn gunner and for now it stays.Take my 2 cents .

I do not know the class you play in the game, but let me ask you something: What if they were to take away 10/25 percent dps from that class? How would you feel/react?

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raiking   
9 hours ago, KiraKamelia said:

This isn't true, a summoner has limited i-frames and can't spam them to avoid damage. After a summoner runs out of i-frames they are vulnerable for 20 to 30 seconds. Even a warlock has the same flaw, but even with the block skill a warlock can still be hit from behind and/or stun locked and well... You can interrupt and break both summoner, kitten and warlock and its thrall easily. Gunners can just Q stone or anchor away and avoid most stuns and interrupts. If they don't they have a quicker cooldown on block skill too. Or call up their snake which is basically the warlock's talisman shield i-frame for the body. 

 

And like @Ludicium stated, "Gunslingers specializes in mobility". No other class out there can avoid damage and attack from safety as easily and safely as a Gunner. Not even an assassin running a stealth build. Wingstorm or a iframe can avoid them [assassins] or cause them to be revealed. Yet, if you're melee you'll never catch a gunner unless they don't use an anchor to jet away or don't know what they are doing. Yet, other classes like summoner, don't have any real gap closer, nor any true long range escape skill. You may say they have stealth, but even that isn't long enough to make them run as far as a gunner can in 5 anchor casts... Even when I'm out of combat using windstride, a gunner who is in combat can keep up with me until they run out of anchors. and then all they need to do is reload :-( and they get another anchor or so. 

 

Maybe the nerf will help make up for the gunner's high mobility, by make them not burst a person down as fast with relative immunity from being hurt. 

Gunners deals a lot of dmg so they always get targeted by bosses very fast. Their mobility is good because it is important to help them avoid dying too much. If gunner didn`t have those iframes, they would be unable to dps since they would constantly be targeted by boss, unless there is a good tank in the party. Attacking while always holding the attention of the boss is not what I call Safety, like you mentioned in the above comment.

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raiking   
42 minutes ago, Sheral said:

I explained many times I think that these people do not understand just want to give nerf for lack of knowledge, but I make it simple for them to understand, compare a gunner full with VT badge, check their damage, then compare a gunner without VT badge and check their damage. A gunner without VT badge damage is normal to other classes with respect to dps, but if you are the ones who play and supposedly know. Now I wonder if they are going to complain after the super nerf to gunner?

I would ask you to please elaborate more on that topic, your words lack clarity and as such, I am unable to understand your reasoning.

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raiking   
11 hours ago, Ludicium said:

Gunslingers specializes in mobility (even more so with Shadow build), aside from that gunslingers has one of the highest amounts of CC skills out there, if spec'd into them (up to 6). I'm sure there's plenty more areas, I'm just brain dead atm.

I'm not saying that Gunslingers should tank, I'm saying that they can/I've seen it before and not on 'small bosses', albeit the character was pretty well geared, but against bosses in Skybreak Spire.

 

But that aside, like I've said in the past and other people on this post have said, the main thing going for the gunslinger is it's damage output and burst potential (even the class description says so), however, I guess the devs saw that the DPS was too high/higher than intended, hence the nerf.

Shadow build has the lowest dps of the two paths. Fire build is purely dps (never played shadow build). I have never seen a gunner tank hard bosses, most of them just stand still to dps. The reason why they decided to nerf Gunners, is because most people who are unable to understand that every class can not be the same, that every class has its own role in a party, and just want their tank/utility/buff etc.. classes to have the same damage as the purely dps class called gunner. I disliked that way of thinking, and that is why I am trying to defend my point of view on this topic.

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4 hours ago, raiking said:

Gunners deals a lot of dmg so they always get targeted by bosses very fast. Their mobility is good because it is important to help them avoid dying too much. If gunner didn`t have those iframes, they would be unable to dps since they would constantly be targeted by boss, unless there is a good tank in the party. Attacking while always holding the attention of the boss is not what I call Safety, like you mentioned in the above comment.

Hence why they need the nerf to their damage and a removal of a few of these i-frames or increase the cooldown on the i-frames. and in PvP, those i-frames and huge damage bursts are an incredible pain in the... Every other range class has numerous moments where they are vulnerable, but a gunner doesn't. 

Edited by KiraKamelia

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raiking   
13 minutes ago, KiraKamelia said:

Hence why they need the nerf to their damage and a removal of a few of these i-frames or increase the cooldown on the i-frames. and in PvP, those i-frames and huge damage bursts are an incredible pain in the... Every other range class has numerous moments where they are vulnerable, but a gunner doesn't. 

I don`t care about pvp, pve is where the class shines. Also gunner has many moments where they are vulnerable, you just need to make sure you know their skills to easily kill them in pvp. Additionally, gunner`s burst is indeed getting nerfed, but unload is getting a huge dps increase, so this is more of a buff than a nerf, contrary to what I thought before. I don`t care anymore about this topic, feel free to add your opinion though.

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Play it in PVP and you'll know how broken it is... OP class is the most broken class, even summoner isn't that bad compared to it. 

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Statler   

Why nerf Gunner?

Well my alt Gunner have something about 1k+ AP, normal fire Ring / Earring, Necklace stage 1, Bracelet Stage 2, Belt stage 1, Seolak Soul, non of the secret technics and no badge.

I outdps nearly every class with same or even slightly better gear. With my burst i event take aggro from a Tank with better Gear and higher AP.

Its not very funny to take aggro at aransu school and instant get killed by the deamon.

Neither it is when you take aggro in NS or any other dungeon and the boss starts jumping to you. Its crap for yourself and for the whole party.

 

I dont want to talk about how broken Gunner is in 6vs6 Everything was already told multiple times.

 

The Damage / Burst is way to high

Thats why the Gunner should be nerfed

Edited by Statler

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Ludicium   
5 hours ago, raiking said:

Shadow build has the lowest dps of the two paths. Fire build is purely dps (never played shadow build). I have never seen a gunner tank hard bosses, most of them just stand still to dps. The reason why they decided to nerf Gunners, is because most people who are unable to understand that every class can not be the same, that every class has its own role in a party, and just want their tank/utility/buff etc.. classes to have the same damage as the purely dps class called gunner. I disliked that way of thinking, and that is why I am trying to defend my point of view on this topic.

You're more than welcome to defend your point =)

 

I wasn't talking about DPS when referring to the shadow build...
As for the gunslinger tanking, I've linked the video in my previous comment... all you need to do is to click on the link... to see a gunslinger tank a BT boss (just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not possible).
 

As for the real reason of nerf, I'm not entirely sure if that's the case or not raiking, nor do I think that you have concrete evidence that that's why the devs are nerfing gunslinger. If you do have concrete evidence then, that's a pretty messed up reason for nerfing a class, as a developer; as not understanding that each class has it's own unique playstyle/mechanics is like saying a teacher doesn't know that there are several different subjects to teach.

As for the potential reason of the developers nerfing gunslingers due to the players not understanding that gunslingers are a class of their own... I'm sorry, but I fail to see how the failure of the community's understanding will result in a nerf aside from the reason that the devs are simply listening to the feedback given by the general community - which really shouldn't result in a nerf as, if they felt like gunslingers were meant to be like that. They would have realized it when they went "does what the general community think (ie. all these "nerf gunslinger" posts) reflect on what we originally designed the gunslinger to be, how or what the gunslinger was intended to or be able to do?"

I mean, of course they had in mind of what gunslingers were meant to be right? It's the reason for the numeric values assigned to each skill as well as the mechanics behind each skills. So, it would make more sense (not saying your reason is wrong), if the developers nerfed gunslinger due to the fact that (based on your reason behind the nerf) they heard the community's posts/comments/feedback and felt it was stronger than what they had intended, or played differently that what they had originally intended.

But, aside from all of that, I personally think that it's not a nerf at all, but more of "less burst" and more "sustained DPS".

I am going to miss the AOE damage of unload when tombstone is active though XD That was/is a lifesaver/QoL as a solo-player.

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Nala   

I just wanted to point out that every class in the game is capable of tanking. Classes are largely nerfed (not the only reason) due to the feedback of the community since if they don't listen to the community then that results in them losing players and money. I believe that they also do things by trail and error, for example they took away the bm's deflect on block and seen how the bm performed in pvp after that and now they are bringing it back (I love this change since ranged classes can't spam attacks at you anymore without getting penalized for it). So the point I'm making is, is that no decision is completely final, changes will always be made to the classes so even though gunner is getting a damage nerf it doesn't mean more changes won't be made as necessary.

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Sheral   

the nerf of 21 is right the gunner needed the nerf in the bullet storm. But in the second nerf that I do not know when they are going to put it I leave the game I will not continue playing because they ruined the gunner and it was quite entertaining for me because of the high ping I have. And I repeat it in the second nerf of the gunner I withdraw from the game.

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raiking   
16 minutes ago, Sheral said:

the nerf of 21 is right the gunner needed the nerf in the bullet storm. But in the second nerf that I do not know when they are going to put it I leave the game I will not continue playing because they ruined the gunner and it was quite entertaining for me because of the high ping I have. And I repeat it in the second nerf of the gunner I withdraw from the game.

What is the second nerf about, for you to decide to leave the game?

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Sheral   

Gunslinger

 Crossfire

Inflicts 10 > 12 sec Concentrated Fire per hit
Bosses now cannot remove Concentrated Fire

 Reload,  Reload

Wire cooldown increased to 15 sec from 12 sec
Wires now last up to 5 min up from 3 min

 Skystone Move 1, 2

Cooldown increased to 1 min

 Tombstone Move 2

 Unload penetrates defense, deflect while Lethal Effect is active
Generates 8 Explosive Rounds over 8 sec
[New] Generates 5 Explosive Rounds

https://bnstree.com/news/S1fDbqqPG/2.21-kr-patch-summary

Edited by Sheral

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Wataru   
8 hours ago, raiking said:

I do not know the class you play in the game, but let me ask you something: What if they were to take away 10/25 percent dps from that class? How would you feel/react?

That would be good or bad depending on the class.

22 minutes ago, Sheral said:

the nerf of 21 is right the gunner needed the nerf in the bullet storm. But in the second nerf that I do not know when they are going to put it I leave the game I will not continue playing because they ruined the gunner and it was quite entertaining for me because of the high ping I have. And I repeat it in the second nerf of the gunner I withdraw from the game.

So your pre-requisite for a class is that they have to be stronger than others. That's setting yourself up for disappointment and that's an awful thing to put more important than fun.

 

Edited by Wataru

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Sheral   
14 minutes ago, Wataru said:

Eso sería bueno o malo dependiendo de la clase.

Entonces, su requisito previo para una clase es que tengan que ser más fuertes que otros. Eso es prepararte para la decepción y horrible.

 

I guess you do not understand the roles the gunner is a dps class, if you remove the boss aggro is why I start with the bullet storm, if we apply roles to the classes bm, kfm are tank classes, in most of the mmorpg the tanks are tank not with little damage and has skill to battle enemies as well as skilles of agro boss, the game does not work according to its role the skill of agro fails, there are no precise skills to maintain the boss's bosses if you played lineage 2 which I think are the creators or something like this you would realize that there was a specific class that took the aggro of all the mobs with certain skills is what fails in blade and soul, if you put yourself to watch the lessons of this game you will realize that some have more skills than others less cd, more damage and as if it were not enough I know that most of them complain but the reality is that everyone wants to kill with a shot, and that is not the case, the bm and the kfm are supposed to be that in their role they would have to protect or bother the enemy or, but if you enter the 6v6 a kfm with a simple aoe fire kills you with a hit of 150 to 180k having the defense you have, the same for a bm you grab it pulls you to it and kills you with a single hit, then I wonder when this happens is it really the classes that need a nerf or the items?

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Role of the gunner is only for Alpha Call skill. Them and their dps being so high is a detriment to the party especially when every gunner think they can burst an enemy down from 15m range and not have the boss move. Which it then jumps and hurts the gunner and any melee that the boss then jumps back to. Gunners need to be exactly like all other DPS classes, everyone on the same footing. FM gives no buff, just a nice party shield that rarely needed, and FMs can do dps too but they don't dps burst down at the same rate as a gunner. 

 

If you're going to leave a game because they nerf your class to be equal to everyone else. Then you'll never find a game to play for long term as you'll always find that. And those that leave a game because of it, aren't really playing the game for any reason other than to be OP at something without putting money into the game. So, threatening to leave the game when the next nerf to gunner happens. There going to be other nerfs to gunner too after this one too... And its all because it needs to be brought down to be on par with other dps classes like FM and BD. 

Edited by KiraKamelia

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mengala   

sorry if i get some people mad for giving my two cent but i feel like i gotta say something  but all i read in this post is that gunner is dps class and thats why they should do so much damage /etc etc? if so let me ask you do you think gunner is the only dps class or the first dps class ever in this game? becuase destroyers are also dps and suppose to be front line dps class so why does destro does such crappy dps if they don't have top gear compare to gunners in pve and pvp?why does destro get nurf just on awhim becuase  some destro has good gear and can kill lots of people in pvp? arn't they suppose to be the front line dps ?that what it says when you check the class out?

 

all in all alot of stuff in this game don't make sense to me, just like summoners or bd's. summoners they are suppose to be the jack of al ltrades? that why they can do everything that the other class can do? talk about over power class or what not unless they can't do all the moves as good as the other class can but they can  

i can understand why they want to make say bm and kfm alittle tougher to hit becuase they have to tank but why bd's? they are just secondary dps but they can wiithstand so much attacks by just spnning but it  aright for them to do that and not destroyers?sf are suppose to be dps and healer? but they are medicore in all their skills at best but summoners should be able to do awsome at every other class skills?

 

sorry if this post was abit long and correct me if i'm wrong  but it just seem most people in this and game class balance is just bias 

 

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amokk   

Gunner main here...

Our DPS is broken AF. Fire more than shadow. 

 

Having roughly 25-30% more DPS than every other class is just plain stupid. Though, I do not know what NCSoft was thinking when they just shifted fire gunners damage but gutted shadow gunner. Fire was stronger than shadow before nerf, and will be even more stronger than shadow after the "nerf". Shadow was recently buffed in KR again (very SLIGHTLY, instant bulletstorm instead of buildup your gauge), but that doesnt mean much tbh. Shadow is pretty much declared dead as fire is better than shadow in every aspect AND fire also has more builds - utilizing short and long soul - while shadow gunner is cancer with long soul.

 

End of story:

Nerf is good, gunners were OP. Gunners will still be #1 DPS. Sucks that NC doesnt release the newest skill patch - has a lot of QoL changes and better balance.

Edited by amokk

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Alystin   

Yesterday on Nova BG I was dead below 1s. 6k def, 4k critdef, 190k HP and I couldn't use 1 skill before I was dead. Yes, gunners don't need nerf, they need more dps and must kill in 0.1s.

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Ludicium   
7 minutes ago, Alystin said:

Yesterday on Nova BG I was dead below 1s. 6k def, 4k critdef, 190k HP and I couldn't use 1 skill before I was dead. Yes, gunners don't need nerf, they need more dps and must kill in 0.1s.

I don't think that's enough... Even 0.1s could result in a death. I'd say we need to implement a 20m aura that insta-kills whenever we use Whipline (I was going to suggest a perm. aura, but that seems too over-powered and could be nerfed in the future).

(Sorry, couldn't resists. I'll show myself out)

Edited by Ludicium

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RavTH   
On 17/03/2018 at 7:18 PM, raiking said:

why nerf Gunners?

why people rerolled to gunner you think?

= gamebreak.

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Brunark   
9 hours ago, mengala said:

sorry if i get some people mad for giving my two cent but i feel like i gotta say something  but all i read in this post is that gunner is dps class and thats why they should do so much damage /etc etc? if so let me ask you do you think gunner is the only dps class or the first dps class ever in this game? becuase destroyers are also dps and suppose to be front line dps class so why does destro does such crappy dps if they don't have top gear compare to gunners in pve and pvp?why does destro get nurf just on awhim becuase  some destro has good gear and can kill lots of people in pvp? arn't they suppose to be the front line dps ?that what it says when you check the class out?

 

all in all alot of stuff in this game don't make sense to me, just like summoners or bd's. summoners they are suppose to be the jack of al ltrades? that why they can do everything that the other class can do? talk about over power class or what not unless they can't do all the moves as good as the other class can but they can  

i can understand why they want to make say bm and kfm alittle tougher to hit becuase they have to tank but why bd's? they are just secondary dps but they can wiithstand so much attacks by just spnning but it  aright for them to do that and not destroyers?sf are suppose to be dps and healer? but they are medicore in all their skills at best but summoners should be able to do awsome at every other class skills?

 

sorry if this post was abit long and correct me if i'm wrong  but it just seem most people in this and game class balance is just bias 

 

Class/character balance is always going to be an endless topic in most games, whether it be MMOs like this, gun balance in FPSs, active/recovery frames and hitboxes/hurtboxes of attacks of characters in fighting games, etc. It will always be difficult to avoid some subjective bias depending on how different people perceive what makes a game "balanced."

 

Guess more than 2 cents now, but I'll throw this out there back more in favor of the "balanced" side of things. People arguing for that gunner is a "DPS" class needs to remember one thing. With how the style and structure of this game is with it being more of an Action MMO rather than conventional MMO, this game does not have to follow the "holy trinity" structure that most conventional click/tab targeting MMOs have with set roles of tank, healer, and DPS.

 

Every character in here with the nature of being an action MMO has tools to block/evade damage and not facetank as required in those classic "holy trinity" roles MMOs. Summoners and SFs are not dedicated healers in this game, simply because they can't be with only having 1 regular heal (2 for SF with their ultimate) which is generally on a long CD compared to most traditional MMO healers. The heal and res abilities on summoner and SF are simply just extra utility their class possesses, just like any other class possesses extra utility with team buffs or party protection. In the end, summoner and SF are also DPS classes as well and are never needed either class to finish any run as long as the party is competent enough in their gameplay to not just eat tons of damage. Old MMOs healers were a necessity to spam heals on the tank and party just because in those non action MMOs, there were no/little tools to avoid the constant attacks, so you needed healers to heal all of the damage the party would eat.

 

The same can be said of BM and KFM. Unlike some of those older holy trinity games where picking a class locks you into being a tank role by design, BMs and KFMs can also be DPS as well just by despec'ing their threat skills. Yes, usually they're expected to tank, but are in no ways obligated to always tank. When running as DPS, their DPS isn't generally lower than all other classes despite being a "tank" class. Usually in those older traditional MMOs, tanks have lower DPS all around because they're "not a DPS class". Certain people like I know picked BM originally because they like sword type characters, not knowing they would be a tank in game.

 

Since this game doesn't follow these traditional MMO conventions, that is why every class should generally be on par in terms of DPS.

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N0iz   
On 3/17/2018 at 8:41 PM, KiraKamelia said:

Gunners have alpha call, that's their other good point. Alpha call is good for resetting SB and BB. but most gunners don't do it, which sucks.

Or they do but the random warlock, kfm or sin not even notice and it got wasted. Personal experience.

 

On 3/18/2018 at 7:39 AM, raiking said:

Gunners dont tank. They run away from bosses, that is not called tanking in my eyes. Maybe they can tank small  bosses that are not very difficult, but the ability of gunner when it comes to tanking is far lower than real tanking classes, that is a fact.

It might not be that big deal but I have been in several BT raids 1-4 with gunslinger tank  (and Raven King 'pizza' is perfect). So yeah, they can tank just like almost every class when the person sitting behind the screen is a skilled player who knows what to do.

Edit: let me add "and they are geared enough to over dps other players in party/alliance".

On 3/17/2018 at 11:44 PM, raiking said:

Gunner does not have the Highest Mobility, summoners do.

This is just hilarious :giggle:

Edited by N0iz

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Neog   

For PvP as others already said I believe it must be nerfed.

 

For PvE I actually believe it requires some changes (not exactly a nerf) to improve class balance and I'll explain bellow:

- GS is not designed to be a tanker, when they are tanking they might not be doing their optimal DPS, they might die to lower defense or HP or they might keep the boss jumping around which is bad for other party members and due to GS' high burst it is very common that they get aggro, hopefully with the new patch and the threat points this gets reduced, let's wait and see.

- While other classes have to do animation canceling, dodging, blocking, iframing, managing focus, stacking skills, optimizing when to use specific skills, GS have a very simple straight forward 3 button attack pattern. Although some players actually enjoy the challenge of making the best of their classes with complex combos, the majority will rather just be lazy and DPS leading to a shortage of other classes, I believe everyone here has seem at least once parties that lack either a tank, a healer, soulburn, restrain or blue buff, even if they are not required there are many benefits of having different classes in the same party. Don't forget that GS is probably the best class to play with ping above 150ms.

 

Take a look at this video from Japanese BNS, the GS has to wait almost 30 seconds to start attacking (to avoid getting aggro) and 40 seconds later he has near the double of total damage than the second place:

 

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Brunark   
19 minutes ago, Neog said:

For PvP as others already said I believe it must be nerfed.

 

For PvE I actually believe it requires some changes (not exactly a nerf) to improve class balance and I'll explain bellow:

- GS is not designed to be a tanker, when they are tanking they might not be doing their optimal DPS, they might die to lower defense or HP or they might keep the boss jumping around which is bad for other party members and due to GS' high burst it is very common that they get aggro, hopefully with the new patch and the threat points this gets reduced, let's wait and see.

- While other classes have to do animation canceling, dodging, blocking, iframing, managing focus, stacking skills, optimizing when to use specific skills, GS have a very simple straight forward 3 button attack pattern. Although some players actually enjoy the challenge of making the best of their classes with complex combos, the majority will rather just be lazy and DPS leading to a shortage of other classes, I believe everyone here has seem at least once parties that lack either a tank, a healer, soulburn, restrain or blue buff, even if they are not required there are many benefits of having different classes in the same party. Don't forget that GS is probably the best class to play with ping above 150ms.

 

Take a look at this video from Japanese BNS, the GS has to wait almost 30 seconds to start attacking (to avoid getting aggro) and 40 seconds later he has near the double of total damage than the second place:

 

That's not just gunner, that's any class including BM and KFM when you have to tank. Tanks have to block/dodge the most attacks, and that time having to block/dodge = time not spent DPSing. The point really is that with enough player skill, knowledge, and gear, any class can tank including gunner. I have a clanmate who's a shadow gunner who has tanked Raven King several times.

 

Also that video is a terrible example to even try to compare DPSs with. The mechanic for Hive Queen is that the 3 people in the center blue circle are the highest ranged DPS people in the group, because those 3 get a MASSIVE attack buff. They also have to manage bug bomb mechanic to not kill each other/rest of the pt.

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