Kasumi Rose

Overpowered Classes

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Egoist00   
17 minutes ago, ClassicMan said:

Or how about they fix all of them? Ncsoft is more than capable of balancing out every class and releasing the patch all at once. I see a lot of people mentioning gunner because it is overpowered but say nothing about fixing the classes that are underpowered. I guess because it benefits you to fight a class much weaker than your own, maybe?

In KR, gunner is been nerf, in the latest patch "Tombstone Move 2, Unload penetrates defense, deflect while Lethal Effect is active,Generates 8 Explosive Rounds over 8 sec" has been removed and added "Generates 5 Explosive Rounds", so they are making fixes, but we wont get them right now. As for fixing every class, I don't think of any game that has every class equally strong in terms of PvE, you play that class because it's fun to play. In terms of PvP, i think needs a lot of balancing.

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Junamaki   

In my opinion, when discussing the balancing of classes, we must look at both pve and pvp because although a class might be overpowered in pvp, they could be weak in pve or vice versa. If a class is balanced based only on how it performs in pve or pvp then this put the class at a huge disadvantage or too much of an advantage if going off only one instead of both. Like in 6v6 where gear matters it must be taken into account.

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17 hours ago, Junamaki said:

when discussing the balancing of classes, we must look at both pve and pvp.

 

       I'm seeing a lot of confusion on whether or not this is a PvP-related topic or a PvE-related topic or both. This is in-fact meant to be a discussion on the PvP side of things (Arena and Battlegrounds). While I agree that it is good to take into account both PvP AND PvE aspects of a class when looking for balancing issues, I also believe that trying to discuss both would be too broad and complicated of a topic for just one thread. There could be a separate thread discussing the PvE side of things, but for this incursion, I'd like to just focus on PvP for simplicity's sake. To be honest, I should've posted this in the PvP section, but I couldn't find it until after I made the topic.

       The title of this post is also causing some confusion. We are no longer focusing on "Overpowered Classes" alone. Instead, we are being more all-encompassing, and we're touching on both underpowered AND overpowered classes/builds/mechanics/etc. This post should really be renamed "Perfect Imbalance" since that sounds more ambiguous and fun, but it's also what we're ultimately trying to AVOID in this type of game. Sometimes, Perfect Imbalance is the thing that makes a game more engaging and strategical. It's the idea that certain things "counter" other things, like how Water is strong against Fire and Fire is strong against Grass in Pokemon. But in Blade & Soul - a game where players can't quickly switch classes (or "Pokemon") to counter another class - we can't afford to have Perfect Imbalance. Instead, we need to strive toward a system where every class can handle every class in a fight. If not that, then the entire game needs to be reworked to allow us to switch classes immediately. But that simply won't happen because at that point the game company might as well make a new title.

       

TL;DR: This post is now a topic discussing any and all balancing issues in PvP (not just the overpowered side of things).

 

We want to write things that are specific and understandable - I.E. able to be interpreted, commented on, and/or implemented by a game dev. simply by reading it.

 

Pro-tip: Nerfs are not always the answer (because that runs the risk of making things dull). Consider buffing other things instead. Think outside the box!

Edited by Kasumi Rose

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Egoist00   

Battleground is gear base, there is really not much to do about it. if ur gear sucks, then its ur business. The real issue to fix in battleground is the match making system.

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34 minutes ago, Egoist00 said:

Battleground is gear base, there is really not much to do about it. if ur gear sucks, then its ur business. The real issue to fix in battleground is the match making system.

Well, we're also talking about Arena, and we don't want to focus on the gear-aspect right now since that's a theme for another topic. We're speaking simply of unbalanced, boring, and/or broken (in need of a rework) skills or mechanics on classes here.

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FrozenB   
18 hours ago, Egoist00 said:

In KR, gunner is been nerf, in the latest patch "Tombstone Move 2, Unload penetrates defense, deflect while Lethal Effect is active,Generates 8 Explosive Rounds over 8 sec" has been removed and added "Generates 5 Explosive Rounds", so they are making fixes, but we wont get them right now. As for fixing every class, I don't think of any game that has every class equally strong in terms of PvE, you play that class because it's fun to play. In terms of PvP, i think needs a lot of balancing.

I don't know if this really considers a nerf because in 6v6, almost every whale gunner spec tombstone tier 1 (bulletstorm) over this tier 2 because C+tab (tier 1) can take down any enemies within second. Actually, this tomb tier 2 skill is supposed to be pvp skill for gunner. However, no pro gunner uses this tier 2 because it is just weak compare to tier 1. The real skill that they need to nerf is Tombstone tier 1 skill.

 

The real nerf should be "extend Tombstone tier 1 skill CD from 1 minute to 3 minutes" and lower its 30% damage. while keeping the tier 2 skill the same as they are now.

 

 

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Arohk   
40 minutes ago, Egoist00 said:

Battleground is gear base, there is really not much to do about it. if ur gear sucks, then its ur business. The real issue to fix in battleground is the match making system.

You know what people do right now in clan PvP?

HM 20 with max pvp gear making a new clan to fight against low people to easy farm battle points.

Edited by Arohk

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Egoist00   
1 minute ago, Arohk said:

You know what people do right now in clan PvP?

HM 20 with max pvp gear making a new clan to fight against low people to easy farm battle points.

Didn't i just said they need to fix the matchmaking system.

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FrozenB   
3 minutes ago, Egoist00 said:

Didn't i just said they need to fix the matchmaking system.

What do you suggest to fix it? There are no way to fix it. Fix it according to gears? People can switch gears. Fix it according to stats? People can switch ss and gears. Fix it according to number of wins/losses? It is the same as elo rank system. Fix it according to hm level? People can have whale gears at hm8 while hm14 still have baleful gears. 

 

Clan battle system, on the other hand, is a lot easier to fix, but they just won't do it.

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Arohk   
23 minutes ago, FrozenB said:

What do you suggest to fix it? There are no way to fix it.

"If you leave your clan you can not participate in Clan-Battle Ground for the rest of the week"

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FrozenB   
2 minutes ago, Arohk said:

"If you leave your clan you can not participate in Clan-Battle Ground for the rest of the week"

I was referring to solo/dual 6vs6 BG, not clan BG.

 

Clan BG has ton of ways to fix it.

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       I suppose one (possibly annoying way) to fix the BG matchmaking system would be to queue people in based on their gear and then not allow them to change their gear once they get into the Battleground. However, this might be obnoxious since I for one (and probably others) often queue in with the wrong gear (PvE gear) at first. And since the discussion keeps wanting to go toward gear-balancing, we can add that to the list of things to talk about. It is, after all, a PvP related topic that has to do with balancing.

 

Topics we still need to agree on:

 

1. Does KFM take a high amount of skill (including their block)? Is it balanced because of this?

 

2. Should the "block meta" (certain classes having to spam block) be shaken up with re-works, buffs, or nerfs? If so, how might your specific idea of change affect gameplay?

 

3. Is Soul Fighter too dependent on gear with not enough raw PvP skills? How might SF be altered to address this issue of imbalance?

 

4. Are summoners balanced? (We seem to be coming to the agreement that Summoner's DPS is too high, and I haven't seen much backlash to that idea. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

5. Does Force Master have too much utility/sustain skills to be balanced? Why or why not?

 

6. Does BG need a better match-making system? How might this new system be implemented?

 

(It might be a good idea to copy and paste the question to which you're addressing in your post to avoid confusion.)

 

(Also, @Everyone: Make sure that if you AGREE with a post you give it a LIKE. If we get enough likes on a post then we can assume that the post is the ideal solution to the problem I.E. It's what the devs should focus on.)

Edited by Kasumi Rose

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Zekken   

The majority of the discussion seems to revolve around 6v6 balance rather than arena PvP.  The two modes are quite a bit different and require different steps in order to balance them.

 

In order to balance arena, the focus needs to be on modifying skills for all the classes.  For 6v6, the focus should be on how gear works with skills.  Trying to balance 6v6 by modifying skills based on how gear interacts with these skills will be fine for 6v6, but will make arena even more unbalanced since gear does not play a role.

 

PvP balancing should be tackled by balancing arena first and then taking a look at modifying how gear interacts with skills.  The entire reason why certain classes are gods in 6v6 and garbage in arena is due to how gear enhances certain skills.

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Junamaki   
21 minutes ago, Zekken said:

The majority of the discussion seems to revolve around 6v6 balance rather than arena PvP.  The two modes are quite a bit different and require different steps in order to balance them.

 

In order to balance arena, the focus needs to be on modifying skills for all the classes.  For 6v6, the focus should be on how gear works with skills.  Trying to balance 6v6 by modifying skills based on how gear interacts with these skills will be fine for 6v6, but will make arena even more unbalanced since gear does not play a role.

 

PvP balancing should be tackled by balancing arena first and then taking a look at modifying how gear interacts with skills.  The entire reason why certain classes are gods in 6v6 and garbage in arena is due to how gear enhances certain skills.

This is the same thing I was saying. Even though I used the term pve and pvp, 6v6 can be considered both because you can also use pve gear. This discussion doesn't seem to be about arena at all but instead focused on 6v6 battlegrounds. For instance the posts about gunners is talking about 6v6 because this class isn't a huge pain to fight in terms of pvp arena. That's why if we balance classes only on how they perform in 6v6 where gear largely affects the class then it could end up being a huge nerf for the class in arena pvp or a huge buff.

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       I agree with Zekken and Junamaki. The reason I included Arena was so that people would be forced to look at the fundamental skills of classes rather than turning this into a gear debate and only a gear debate.

       I would definitely say that honing in on skills should come first then we can focus on gear balance just like Zekken says. But I'm not in control of what people type, so if lots of players bring up gear and matchmaking problems, that's fine, but it may have to be put on the back-burner until we solve the more pressing matters: basic class-skills/mechanic problems.

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This is my point of view, firstly i think there has to be classes with varied skill levels as in easy to play classes(like summoner) and hard to play classes(Kfm) because there are huge amounts of players in this game who either cannot be that good in games for whatever reason(easy to play classes would at least give them a chance to win) or who are really good at games and wants a challenging and hard class to try to master(would make them be in disadvantage but when mastered be at equal or superior level). So this gives a part illusion that some classes are too easy or overpowered, sure they cannot have too damaging or too low damage skills and that's the second part. Balancing it all out.

 

When it comes to arena, majority of the classes do indeed have the ability to kill the opponent in 1 combo or near kill them if you play them correctly, some require more flawless skillful play than others for already mentioned reason above. Every class has their strong dangerous skills that will kill you fast if you let them, that is IF you let them. Arena is about mindgames, learning your opponents weaknesses and trying to expose them to get the kill while shielding your own weaknesses to avoid getting killed. Some people just can't do that so they think classes are overpowered. Most classes have tons of defense abilities you can use in order to avoid death but main problem is aerial attacks that you can't escape from. So i suggest to have the ability to escape aerials with TAB, that would solve half of the balance problems at least, rest would fall to your own ability to predict and avoid.

Second suggestion would be to remove evade bonus while stealth for assassin since in my opinion that seems a bit too overpowered as they already have quite the advantage with the stealth alone.

 

Also every player has their own playstyle so nerfing or changing the block abilities could be quite devastating for some players for whatever reason and quite fair i think all classes have a way to deal with block abilities be it defense penetration or defense break skills.

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        So, you suggest that there be a way to escape from aerials, I completely agree. I've actually thought that since I realized WL's air-spam-combo was so powerful. There shouldn't be a way to kill a player without giving the player some means of escape, hence why B&S should allow us to escape these. I would say 1-hits needs to be removed as well, but I don't think any class has a "1-hit kill" ability necessarily; that's just down to gear (specifically the class that 1-hits a person has to have much higher gear than their enemy).

        I agree that assassin has too much stealth at the moment, and maybe a nerf to them is correct, but everyone should make sure to think about the literal fun aspect of the game. Would it be more fun to remove an assassin's ability to have a stealth bonus on an evade, or would it be more fun to allow more classes to freely aim their attacks (without needing a target) to get an assassin out of stealth on their own?

          

On 2/23/2018 at 3:43 PM, Amarathiel said:

every player has their own playstyle so nerfing or changing the block abilities could be quite devastating

 

       I think you're saying that the block-spam or "block-meta" as I keep calling it is by player's choice? This might be the case, but - correct me if I'm wrong - the way I see it: Spam-blocking is not a play-style choice; rather, players who use Kung Fu Master, Blade Master, and some other classes are forced to spam-block in order to survive because that's the nature of how their class is built. What I was suggesting was a buff and a nerf to those block-heavy classes that would incentivize (maybe even benefit or reward) those players for not blocking. On top of this, other classes might be given more block-breaking abilities to further push the game in a direction that isn't constant block-spam.

        I still don't think I've gotten a response to confirm or deny this, but I believe that having to block for most of a fight is a boring/poorly-designed mechanic (or at the very least it's not as fun as what COULD be in place instead) for everyone involved (meaning for the person playing the block-heavy class and for the person(s) fighting the block-heavy class). This is because it's reducing player's APMs (as nerdy as that sounds) and it's literally reducing gameplay. That's the reason I suggested a re-work on that: to enhance gameplay and support more bold actions/choices by players.

Edited by Kasumi Rose

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2 hours ago, Kasumi Rose said:

       I think you're saying that the block-spam or "block-meta" as I keep calling it is by player's choice? This might be the case, but - correct me if I'm wrong - the way I see it: Spam-blocking is not a play-style choice; rather, players who use Kung Fu Master, Blade Master, or sometimes Warlock are forced to spam-block in order to survive because that's the nature of how their class is built. What I was suggesting was a buff and a nerf to those block-heavy classes that would incentivize (maybe even benefit or reward) those players for not blocking. On top of this, other classes might be given more block-breaking abilities to further push the game in a direction that isn't constant block-spam.

        I still don't think I've gotten a response to confirm or deny this, but I believe that having to block for most of a fight is a boring/poorly-designed mechanic (or at the very least it's not as fun as what COULD be in place instead) for everyone involved (meaning for the person playing the block-heavy class and for the person(s) fighting the block-heavy class). This is because it's reducing player's APMs (as nerdy as that sounds) and it's literally reducing gameplay. That's the reason I suggested a re-work on that: to enhance gameplay and support more bold actions/choice by players.

Agree with this one. Playing as Assassin its so boring to kite all those BD's until they run out of their spins.

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Ausuko   

Fms in Arena should have their chill 'thing' removed. I almost am incapable of comboing an fm as a kfm with chill up. Punishing a player for getting an advantage over the other is literal absurdity. Not to mention hm impact preventing charge attacks on a whim in addition to their skills that already block such attacks is goddamned annoying (although I think theyre changing that skill to 6s with the update, godbless)

 

Summoner; killing the cat needs to become a strat again. It's the only way I see summoner balance being a thing. How it is now - although I can't say I know anything about summoner or the way it was, as wl is the only unbalanced class in my Repertoire - the cat is essentially invincible, which means to classes without two escapes (if you're fighting an hm bees sum) you're essentially ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ed. Killing the cat leaves the summoner open as it should, right it's just as everyone says: counter spam while e &  q are on cd. It may be boring but what else is there to do lol. And not to mention the cat has like 20 different ways to cc you while you're beating on the summoner which is great. Again with punishing you for getting an advantage. 

 

I don't even know what issue I take with warlock but I agree there should be some way to escape or tab an air. That amount of damage being done in an inescapable situation is ridiculous. 

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Nala   
19 minutes ago, Ausuko said:

I don't even know what issue I take with warlock but I agree there should be some way to escape or tab an air. That amount of damage being done in an inescapable situation is ridiculous. 

I agree and should be able to escape fm wall bang. To be honest I have no idea why that is even allowed when I first encountered a fm doing this I thought it was a bug but turned out it is not.

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Egoist00   
1 hour ago, Ausuko said:

Fms in Arena should have their chill 'thing' removed. I almost am incapable of comboing an fm as a kfm with chill up. Punishing a player for getting an advantage over the other is literal absurdity. Not to mention hm impact preventing charge attacks on a whim in addition to their skills that already block such attacks is goddamned annoying (although I think theyre changing that skill to 6s with the update, godbless)

How about removing KM block stun, BD/Des spin stun, does it make sense if you block a range attack and reflects back to you 100% and stun you 100%.

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Laura099   
On 2/19/2018 at 10:17 PM, Enemy Silence said:

I played all classes and i can assure you the ONLY class that requires actual skill is KFM. I actually have experience with fighting games and balancing unlike the majority of you and have attended and placed in tournaments in street fighter, tekken and guilty gear. Granted this game is nothing like them, but i understand meta and fundamentals. What i'm telling you is KFM is the only class that requires high skill. As far as offense is concerned, they must outplay you EVERY TIME. If you struggle with hongmoon block and don't understand the timing in their iframes, it means you're not serious about pvp or you suck.

 

There is no tangible proof or evidence or video you can show to back up the claim that KFM doesn't require THE MOST skill. I challenge anyone to prove their point. You won't, you'll just post some BS and go on as if it holds water. I watch some of the top players play all classes and every class is balanced around gimmicks and shenanigans. Most classes weren't developed with skill in mind which is why most of your skills AUTO LOCK ON or AUTO CORRECT. INSTANT CAST with devastating results, shields and A.I. companions. Now if hongmoon block actually stunned you, then yes...you can talk all the crap you want and i'll agree, but it doesn't.

I would like to say this, and while i have no room to talk, i find kfms one of the most difficult classes for my spec.
Now you can call me as bad as you want, but it's difficult not to hit intot heir counter. However, this is because i play frostlock, which arguably is not a pvp class at all and is highly predictable. But even then, I still get many kills on kfm as of recent.
I'm not sure whether to say kfm is the hardest class or not, but i will agree it's certainly difficult. But a kfm that knows how to play, or rather how others play, can be very difficult. I don't mean this as a complaint, simply to entertain the thought.
Now in 6v6 I hate to say, i think it is one of the easier classes. I tend to just see 3 vt geared kfms circly together, hold 1, and use tremor. But in 6v6, it's all shenanigans. There is no such thing as a balance in there.

Therefore my synopsis is: Kfm, as a normal pvp player, is definitely the hardest. However I believe pve focused spec in pvp can be considerably harder, depending on the class setup.

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thieve   

BD is the evul !!!! Sin is beyond of the sin !!!

Edited by thieve

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