Astarae

more special rules?

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Astarae   

Now I get jumped on by someone who was HM13 (v. my HM11), for bidding against him -- because he felt he contributed more to killing the boss than others, so it would only be "considerate", "polite" and "fair" to let him have anything he wants to bid on....

 

Um....this is getting complicated.  Of course they didn't tell anyone that it was their "muscle", their choice of loot?...what would that be...MMML?=

Sure, everyone donated their fighting skills, but he claimed to donate more....due to his specs.  So...is this ANOTHER unwritten rule?   

 

My feeling is about the same as the other: -- if someone wants their own rules, if it is their private party, say so in advance, or solo it. 

 

Sigh...why does this remind me of fizzbin?

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Alanstar   
1 hour ago, Astarae said:

Now I get jumped on by someone who was HM13 (v. my HM11), for bidding against him -- because he felt he contributed more to killing the boss than others, so it would only be "considerate", "polite" and "fair" to let him have anything he wants to bid on....

 

Um....this is getting complicated.  Of course they didn't tell anyone that it was their "muscle", their choice of loot?...what would that be...MMML?=

Sure, everyone donated their fighting skills, but he claimed to donate more....due to his specs.  So...is this ANOTHER unwritten rule?   

 

My feeling is about the same as the other: -- if someone wants their own rules, if it is their private party, say so in advance, or solo it. 

 

Sigh...why does this remind me of fizzbin?

Nope. Don't listen to him. Only time someone gets a item if everyone in party agrees. He was trying to be greedy. He is in the wrong, you are in the right.

Edited by Alanstar

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Seen this kind of things happening in BT and I find it unfair. Everyone in the party contributed same amount of time for the boss kills so everyone should be treated equally and not by the level and gear. The person was just being super greedy and selfish so just ignore those people. The greedy people usually cry the most. Regards from soon to be HM15 o/

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Fiana   

depend on what kind dungeon you run, and what class he play, and each clan or raid group have their own rule

there are group who roll dice instead bid gold, there also group who put minimum and maximum gold bid
usually for static raid group, you would want to gear up tank first, give first 2 of his elemental ring and earing + energy or ferocity is not that much big deal.. after tank get full gear, its become free bid for everyone

 

as long you don't try to be jackass and intentionally rise bid because you simply want more gold

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While @Fiana is correct that it is each raid and clan, and party to decide what is right or not. At the same time, I've seen this type of behavior in crappy dungeons like Heaven's Mandate when I tell people that "Since its my orb, you all can get loot from here, I don't care who gets it". I have seen some that refuse to take the loot and others that act like because they the highest level person there they deserve the loot even though they know its not even worth the cost of the orb to get there. 

 

And like @Fiana stated, just make it a dice roll group if you are the party leader. Then no need to worry about who has the deeper pockets. Just the luck of the dice then. 

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33 minutes ago, Fiana said:

as long you don't try to be jackass and intentionally rise bid because you simply want more gold

There are people who genuinely bid what they are comfortable paying from the get go and drop if someone else bids more. Seen this happen at least a thousand times.

 

@Astarae Pft, if that made any sort of sense you would have to drop bidding in the lowbie dungeons literally every time you encounter a random raven9, since they do at least 40% of the damage. I'd say if it's not an orb run for the Kaari or Soyun, just bid as long as you were doing the max you could with your gear (you know your dps the best so you know when you're slacking and when not). You might see the greed popping up when you see a pet pot drop from the kaari on a party orb run (orb dropped from first boss). 3/4 times someone will complain by quoting their combat record. That kind of entitlement is out of place.

Edited by MassiveEgo

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OPbaby   

I had someone bid me once for the orb in cold storage. It was them and me, cuz everyone else had left, we were bidding up to 4 gold. I cancelled and proceeded to solo Karii Lord after cause I had another orb. And 4 gold xD

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Astarae   
5 hours ago, Fiana said:

as long you don't try to be jackass and intentionally rise bid because you simply want more gold

??  How does one get more gold by raising the bid?  (FWIW, we were incrementing coppers, and given his attitude, I stopped bidding @ 10, so gold never entered into it).  Does the loser get the counter bid or is it party-split?

 

Also, BTW, wasn't a fixed group, was a LFP...

 

As for the orb stuff... I won't go w/someone who won't let me use my orb -- and I'll announce up front -- my orb, everyone's loot (by bid).  That way no one is forced into anything.  If I'm taking a party into one of the orb-needing areas, its for their benefit (since I can solo either at this point), and my fun.   I'd feel churlish demanding loot from someone I was shepherding/escorting.

 

 

Edited by Astarae

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Alanstar   
5 hours ago, MassiveEgo said:

There are people who genuinely bid what they are comfortable paying from the get go and drop if someone else bids more. Seen this happen at least a thousand times.

I always set a certain price for items I am bidding for, never going over that price. When it goes over that price, I stop bidding. There is times when I do bid over the price if I am desperate for that item. Sometimes I just bid to help those in the party, give them a extra bit of gold. I also try to be fair and just when it comes to item drops.

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1 hour ago, Astarae said:

1/ ??  How does one get more gold by raising the bid?  (FWIW, we were incrementing coppers, and given his attitude, I stopped bidding @ 10, so gold never entered into it).  Does the loser get the counter bid or is it party-split?

 

Also, BTW, wasn't a fixed group, was a LFP...

 

2/ As for the orb stuff... I won't go w/someone who won't let me use my orb -- and I'll announce up front -- my orb, everyone's loot (by bid).  That way no one is forced into anything.  If I'm taking a party into one of the orb-needing areas, its for their benefit (since I can solo either at this point), and my fun.   I'd feel churlish demanding loot from someone I was shepherding/escorting.

 

 

1. Some people big when they see certain patterns in the way other bid, pushing just a little more so he/she can get the extra golds. This won't happen for normally cheap items. Expect such pushing to happen for some more exotic drops. The destiny ring drops in EC for example are 4/5 cases a highly sought after item. And someone is bound to try and capitalize on that. You want it? Good for you, you're not getting it for three and half coppers. Prepare to cough out at least 30 gold... or something along those lines. Which amounts to over 6 gold for each of the five players that don't get the ring. It's quite profitable actually;

 

2. Well as long as you keep your rules to runs that aren't hosted by someone else who has different rules in place, it's perfectly fine. Also you still seem to have the wrong idea about moml runs. Nobody demands you to join them. You see the lobby, you don't like the rules, you don't join. No one that joins these parties is forced doing anything they didn't agree to. You can't join a club if you don't agree with their rules now can you? No matter how much you like the club or how much you want to join it, if you can't subscribe to the rules, you simply stay away from it as it's not the club for you. Easy life ^^

 

@Alanstar I do the same. I can't even recall the last time I didn't pay a full price for a pet pot in a "party orb" Kaari. Got at least 7 of those puppies from there by now.

Edited by MassiveEgo

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Gennady   
9 hours ago, MassiveEgo said:

You want it? Good for you, you're not getting it for three and half coppers. Prepare to cough out at least 30 gold... or something along those lines.

I paid more than 100 for ring. Recently belt dropped and someone bought it for more than 100 (I didn't have so much gold this time)

19 hours ago, Astarae said:

he claimed to donate more....due to his specs.  So...is this ANOTHER unwritten rule?

No, that's not a rule, that's just some greedy whale/nolifer. Unless dungeon requires some special item to open (like orb in HM), everyone has equal rights to bid on loot. If I'll go with my alt to high level dungeon (and by high these days I mean something higher than NF), I'l agree if person who carried would take all loot (but if there are few of them, I would not refuse money from their bid war :p). It makes sense if my char is too low for that dungeon and was carried. Otherwise I would bid and don't care who has better gear - that person most probably needed DC as well and it's not like they paid golds for that run.

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Astarae   
On Friday, February 09, 2018 at 1:56 AM, MassiveEgo said:

Also you still seem to have the wrong idea about moml runs. Nobody demands you to join them. You see the lobby, you don't like the rules, you don't join. No one that joins these parties is forced doing anything they didn't agree to.

Um... seems you and maybe others have wrong idea about me.  The person who ragged on me for bidding on loot didn't advertise their rules in advance.  They were a late-comer to an LFP party that I [randomly] was the leader for.  It was a rag-tag bunch that just hit LFP on any one who wanted to do the given dungeon, which is how I do most of my dungeon runs because the advertised often have 1.1k++ or "need buffs", or wanting classes other than mine...etc.   So understand, my comments are about the unstated case -- not in a clan, or advertised group.

 

When I first ran into this, it was a case where rules weren't posted.  In such a situation, some assert (and some assume) that all should or will adhere to "orb-privilege" rules (assumption of moml in random parties w/no previously announced expectation).  People who assume orb-privilege seem-to(?) (or maybe?)  believe the orb-giver is "needy"(?), and of a low enough level that a 5-cent item is a big deal to them such that they should be given subsequent loot w/o debate or prior notice.  Alternatively, some might think nothing of parting with 5-cents as part of putting together a party for HM. 

 

Some of those orb-users might even be uncomfortable with people assuming that they were going to expect such compensation.   Imagine if you gave up your seat on a bus for someone needing a seat (person w/cane or baby, etc); after doing so, the seated person insisted on giving you a monetary tip for your kindness: many  would find that embarrassing.  I feel it trivializes, debases and discourages such random acts of generosity or kindness -- converting them to a "❤ ❤ ❤ ❤-for-tat" type exchange.  More than once I've given excess tokens for some farming goal to someone I struck up a conversation with or noticed pursuing the same goal.  When I had a "younger" character, I benefitted by some giving me some items that would be more useful to me than them.  I didn't think they wanted "payment" any more than I would for doing similar. 

 

By assuming unwritten rules, it can cause many people to avoid such situations entirely.  Example: I've noticed a majority number of people aborting the 2nd half of CS to avoid the hassle of assumptions -- its the only case where I've seen people abort, mid-dungeon, w/no discussions or goodbyes.  Second example: a fair number of people soloing HM to avoid the hassle -- especially since the value of the loot is rarely worth it.

 

Ironic how its usually the unwritten rules that cause the most emotional responses in a community.   It seems that such  rules are often used as a litmus test of acceptability by some.   People who'd previously made friendly overtures or invited you to their clan "shun" you w/o response for such litmus violations.   More often than not, I find such rules causing more harm than benefit.  Especially when they get you excluded w/no further explanation.  :-( 

 

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"Some of those orb-users might even be uncomfortable with people assuming that they were going to expect such compensation.   Imagine if you gave up your seat on a bus for someone needing a seat (person w/cane or baby, etc); after doing so, the seated person insisted on giving you a monetary tip for your kindness: many  would find that embarrassing.  I feel it trivializes, debases and discourages such random acts of generosity or kindness -- converting them to a "❤ ❤ ❤ ❤-for-tat" type exchange."

 

I don't have any beef with most of what you said except the above quoted paragraph. Your example isn't a good one however. You don't own a bus seat. You do own a white orb. And it's most definitely not worth five cents. At least not in EU where I'm seeing it cost 5+ golds. 5 golds is the reward for a mid tier dungeon that takes between 15 and 25 minutes to clear with a random pug. So one MOML run costs the player with the orb, an average of 20 minutes sunken into just allowing everybody to enter. I wouldn't say that it's generous to allow five other people to enter alongside him/her. It's borderline sainthood deed, considering the costs and the return on investment. I wouldn't give people one minute of my time if there's  no profit in it (in whatever way, shape or form that profit comes of course. Not talking monetary profit solely), as time is the one thing I have in extremely limited quantities.

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Astarae   
4 hours ago, MassiveEgo said:

I don't have any beef with most of what you said except the above quoted paragraph. Your example isn't a good one however. You don't own a bus seat. You do own a white orb. And it's most definitely not worth five cents. At least not in EU where I'm seeing it cost 5+ golds. 5 golds is the reward for a mid tier dungeon that takes between 15 and 25 minutes to clear with a random pug. So one MOML run costs the player with the orb, an average of 20 minutes sunken into just allowing everybody to enter. I wouldn't say that it's generous to allow five other people to enter alongside him/her. It's borderline sainthood deed, considering the costs and the return on investment. I wouldn't give people one minute of my time if there's  no profit in it (in whatever way, shape or form that profit comes of course. Not talking monetary profit solely), as time is the one thing I have in extremely limited quantities.

Ah, but for the time you are traveling on the bus, you've "scored" temporary ownership of such.  You don't really own an orb either -- all of your character -- outfits, inventory is on an NCSoft Server.  If they go, what do you "own". 

 

As for nickel cost -- I went from NA where I bought about 10 for 22G.  or 2.2G/1.  If you want to buy gold on the exchange, it is between 1.8 and 2.0 NC coins/gold piece -- or using the top of 2.0, so 2.2G = 4.4 NCCoins.  On amazon, NCcoins are $100/80 coins, or $1.25 / 1 NCoin.  So 4.4 NCCoins * 1.25$ = 5.5 cents -- if you get a good deal, @ 1.8 ncoin/1 gold, then it's 4.95 cents.  Looking at trends on the market for the past month, prices has been coming down.

 

So 4.95 - 5.5 cents.  Your time is whatever it is.  Seems the EU gold price is about 2x the NA gold price (probably varies), but even saying the orb costs double in the EU -- its about 10-11 cents.  You say it takes you 20 minutes to earn that in the game.  So your in-game earn rate is about 32 US cents/hour.

 

That's way below minimum wage in the US, and in some states, minimum wage is up to $15/hour in some towns, but likely half that in general (not sure).  So you can look at costs in "time" -- but if you can do any work, you'd get over 10X the amount you get in game.  If you are only looking at it on a "$$$" amount -- you are screwed.  That's why I try not to think about the $$$ amount and force "bad business (or money) sense on others by telling them they need to

give  special rewards because I'm working for such a low amount -- but  are willing to work for such a low amount.  Presumably you get enjoyment and entertainment out of this game -- because if is only about money -- then the ratios are heavily against you breaking even whether you get the final loot or not. 

 

If you notice that, then trying to invest time and effort to even "break even" in the game is a difficult task -- one that is near impossible due to the exchange rates.  So, I tend to stand by my "nickel-worth" calculation for now, at least in NA.  It might be that in a different geographic area, the "retail" price on the market for orbs is worth more or less, but are my calculations wrong?  Am I missing something?  (other than it being maybe 2X or ~10 cents in the EU).

 

Cheers!

Astara

 

 

 

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Cherish   

Moving back onto the original question and getting away from the stupid orb you stress over so much.  As previously stated MOML is another thing altogether and not the problem you quoted in your original post.

 

NO there is no need for you to not bid on items in a party.  Everyone has the same chance and is only limited by the amount of gold they have.  I personally wouldnt even get involved in chat with the person insisting the stuff is theirs I would just bid and ignore them.  Arguements both in game and on forums is stressful and most definately not fun for me so it is much easier just to pretend the person never spoke and leave when I have won or lost the bid. :D

 

eg: today I ran EC with a pug group I am HM14 and they were between HM7-10, yes I agree I did a larger share of the damage but we were all still in that dungeon for the same amount of time.  Each of those lower HM lvl players worked their butts off and for their level they did a fair share of the work.  During those groups there is pretty much only one item I want and that is the mat pouches.  If people try coppering me to death depending on the quantity of pouches I just chuck in the relevant amount of gold.  If they want to outbid me and go over what I consider them worth then Im just grateful to take their gold.

 

Ignore the trolls and really agro them by ignoring them that hurts them big time :D

 

 

Edited by Cherish

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Shunaia   

If it was the "MOML/YOYL" thing, it's an unwritten rule for people who "buy" access for those runs with their "keys", so it's pretty much just a way to respect the person who's paying for your ticket, like if you were invited to see a movie with someone, etc. at a theater.

With raids run by clans, if you are a "guest" who's filling a vacant slot on a no-show, you're usually invited with an understanding that the guys in the raid just need YOUR help in finishing the dungeon so their guys can get whatever it is they are there for.

If the person inviting you says you can feel free to roll on certain things, being their guest, it's just fair to play along with their conditions.

However, if you want something specific from a raid, you SHOULD speak up from the start and say what you're hoping for and ask if it's okay to roll or bid on such things.

If it's not okay, you can always look for another raid group where no one minds if you roll for such items.

Otherwise, it's better to just make your own raid group, make your own rules, and hope you get enough people to agree to whatever rules or terms you have so you can all do the activity together.

When some "high level" guy tries to be greedy and uses his "muscle" or levels of contribution, however, you can just ignore or block him and bid to your heart's content. The only time I see someone like him or her being justified is if everyone else was an afker, sitting at the entrance of the dungeon, making him solo everything, but then again, I would leave if a group tried that crap with me. w

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RavTH   

ignore the cuck and still bid, no matter wat unless you went afk and then came back and be like ayy bid time.

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Astarae   
11 hours ago, Cherish said:

Moving back onto the original question and getting away from the stupid orb you stress over so much.  As previously stated MOML is another thing altogether and not the problem you quoted in your original post.

If I was stressing over the orb, why is it that I didn't raise the issue (was answering a point raised by MassiveEgo), and that it is you raising the issue to assert I had "stress" over the issue.  It seems more that you are showing the stress that people claiming "rights", after the fact, is a pattern common to both.   Just as the person in this case claimed rights, for the first time, at bid-time, I wrote about the moml examle:

On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Astarae said:

The person who ragged on me for bidding on loot didn't advertise their rules in advance.  They were a late-comer to an LFP party that I [randomly] was the leader for.  It was a rag-tag bunch that just hit LFP on any one who wanted to do the given dungeon... My comments [were] about the unstated case -- not in a clan, or advertised group.

I called their attitude "orb-privilege": a "presumption" that their (moml) rule was universal, something that, at the very least, is debatable.

 

6 hours ago, Shunaia said:

If it was the "MOML/YOYL" thing...

Which it is not. But even still...you are repeating your previous views without reading what was written
 to clarify misconceptions regarding that issue:

6 hours ago, Shunaia said:

it's an unwritten rule for people who "buy" access for those runs with their "keys", so it's pretty much just a way to respect the person who's paying for your ticket, like if you were invited to see a movie with someone, etc. at a theater.

You mean like how when men paid for entertainment and dinner on a date, that it was an "unwritten rule" that a woman would compensate him in a different currency?  Didn't such assumptions go out with the 70's?

 

Instead of it being "respectful", many realized that such expectations could even be considered **offensive** (for various reasons).   Depending on your local culture/society, it became prudent to not assume such things, often with someone pointing out that the word "assume" contains hints to the possible result of its use: "ass U Me" -- it can make both parties look "ridiculous".

 

===============================

 

 

FWIW, I ran into another example where some *3rd* person made comments on a bidding war between myself and some better-equipped party member where they first commented to "party": "omg you already have it". 

 

I thought, "figures". After another minute, they said (to party) "[well...] let him have it then", which I interpreted (perhaps incorrectly) as them getting tired of the bidding process and telling me to let him have it even though he already had it.  I ignored that advice too, though it cost me ~12g...

 

So, I am starting to learn (I think), thanks to helpful posts here, but what a huge learning curve!!!

 

Thanks!

 

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Shunaia   
On 2/11/2018 at 2:14 PM, Astarae said:

If I was stressing over the orb, why is it that I didn't raise the issue (was answering a point raised by MassiveEgo), and that it is you raising the issue to assert I had "stress" over the issue.  It seems more that you are showing the stress that people claiming "rights", after the fact, is a pattern common to both.   Just as the person in this case claimed rights, for the first time, at bid-time, I wrote about the moml examle:

I called their attitude "orb-privilege": a "presumption" that their (moml) rule was universal, something that, at the very least, is debatable.

 

Which it is not. But even still...you are repeating your previous views without reading what was written
 to clarify misconceptions regarding that issue:

You mean like how when men paid for entertainment and dinner on a date, that it was an "unwritten rule" that a woman would compensate him in a different currency?  Didn't such assumptions go out with the 70's?

 

Instead of it being "respectful", many realized that such expectations could even be considered **offensive** (for various reasons).   Depending on your local culture/society, it became prudent to not assume such things, often with someone pointing out that the word "assume" contains hints to the possible result of its use: "ass U Me" -- it can make both parties look "ridiculous".

 

===============================

 

 

FWIW, I ran into another example where some *3rd* person made comments on a bidding war between myself and some better-equipped party member where they first commented to "party": "omg you already have it". 

 

I thought, "figures". After another minute, they said (to party) "[well...] let him have it then", which I interpreted (perhaps incorrectly) as them getting tired of the bidding process and telling me to let him have it even though he already had it.  I ignored that advice too, though it cost me ~12g...

 

So, I am starting to learn (I think), thanks to helpful posts here, but what a huge learning curve!!!

 

Thanks!

 

First of all, you cannot take apart a COMPLETE THOUGHT, split into whatever two pieces you wish, then presume to put those words into my mouth and assume that was the complete message I was trying to convey. The complete thought was the following, in its entirety:

 

"If it was the "MOML/YOYL" thing, it's an unwritten rule for people who "buy" access for those runs with their "keys", so it's pretty much just a way to respect the person who's paying for your ticket, like if you were invited to see a movie with someone, etc. at a theater."

 

The "MOML/YOYL" thing is not a rule enforced by the people who run the game, and is an unwritten rule, being a part of an "honor system" put in place BY the community, FOR the community. Don't be a blithering idiot and take apart what I say, and make it sound like I support male chauvinism to any degree with that dumb quid pro quo remark you made. If you had kept the appropriate words together, which were necessary to convey what I was actually saying, it would make more sense than just reading what YOU wanted to read out of my words.

You owe me and a lot of other women here a sincere apology, but I won't hold my breath for one, nor care to read one for someone who acts so ignorant. I was speaking of general rules of thumb in different situations, and your "selective listening" where YOU did not read what I was saying, whereas I DID read what your situation was, does far more harm when you go off, half-cocked, and too quick to blame and accuse others the way you do.

Has it not occurred to you, that maybe most of your online encounters end so poorly, because YOU are the problem...?

Fix yourself, in whatever ways you honestly should before trying to burn others at the stake.

 

No one said a damned thing about a quid pro quo situation like it was a "date" where the MALE pays for everything and feels the lady OWES him for the night out.

Your mentality itself is just appalling and you should be ashamed of yourself. I don't find it to be a ban-able offense, but that's just really wrong.

The "learning curve" you speak of, and claim youre learning from isn't that difficult to navigate.

You, apparently, need for people to put it very plain and simple for you to better understand.

I'll oblige by saying this:

 

If it is an orb spent by another player, you SHOULD respect the unwritten rule that most of the civil people in this community adhere to, being the "MOML/YOYL" rule.

They're NOT that damned expensive and it's NOT a big deal. I had stockpiled on them as SCALES in the past, fromy own Zaiwei Ruins DCS back in the day, and I got a few from troves, etc.. I've always had around 300× or so, and I don't care if theIR market value is 1~3G now. It's not like you'll ever need more than TWO in any given day, unless there's an event like a Merchant of Wonders thing in CS or H.Mandate again. The loot you get in either place is worth less than the orb sometimes, but most people just want to go to those places for the DCS these days.

If you're too cheap to acquire the orbs on your own and/or present your orb in your runs, that's up to you, but you'll often get grouped with other freeloaders where NO ONE wants to fund the cost for the party's access to CS or H.Mandate.

I rarely even stay to bid on anything in those places anymore. Watching bid bots go at it in bid wars where the ante NEVER goes above 2 copper for 5+ minutes is ridiculous. I'm not sure how the exploit works, but it sucks for anyone who actually wants to stay and bid on what they want and need from the dropped loot.

In static raid groups, if you are just someone's temporary stand-in, the people running the raid will usually make sure YOU agree with the idea that if X or Y drops, that their guys have priority unless something changes in that area.

You can expect people to be okay with you bidding on their clan's main tank's loot/drop goal, when you're just a guest in THEIR run.

However, in the case when someone is just being a butt-lord, feeling entitled to all the loot in a non-static group or raid, just because they are a higher Hongmoon level than you - if it's a PUG, you don't have to listen to him/her.

It WOULD be crappy if you were bidding on an item that your class cannot even use, while other people in the group who CAN use it are being hindered and impeded by your troll bids.

As for situations where you want something for an alt, you should speak up about such things and discuss them with your group as close to the beginning of your expedition ASAP, so there's no confusion in the case that what you're looking for actually drops.

Don't be a butt-lord. We have plenty enough in BNS and in these forums.

If this wasn't helpful, disregard it. I don't care.

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Astarae   
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 4:59 AM, Shunaia said:

First of all, you cannot take apart a COMPLETE THOUGHT, split into whatever two pieces you wish, then presume to put those words into my mouth and assume that was the complete message I was trying to convey.

Your post is in your response.  The parts of your post I am responding to, I quote in my response.  There is no attempt to put words in your mouth. 

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 4:59 AM, Shunaia said:

The "MOML/YOYL" thing is not a rule enforced by the people who run the game, and is an unwritten rule, being a part of an "honor system" put in place BY the community, FOR the community. Don't be a blithering idiot and take apart what I say, and make it sound like I support male chauvinism to any degree with that dumb quid pro quo remark you made.

I didn't say you, imply or question whether you believed it.  I supplied it as a parallel of one party preemptively giving something with an expectation that the other party would respond in some desired way.  That's a parallel or analogy.  Instead of thinking you might believe it -- I hoped you would believe such archaic behaviors were NOT acceptable.  

 

Instead,  you say  that I am trying to make it sound like you support male chauvinism (where?) and that I should apologize for what you labeled "appalling behavior only 'just short' of a ban-able offense".  Since it was you who created and read that into the discussion, maybe you should consider the apology if you feel one is necessary (I don't especially feel it's necessary, as I don't take it as intentionally malicious, which is where I usually draw the line).

 

Having one side assume something, then pressure the other side to "pay up" (in the moml case, by paying up the loot), is clearly shown to be offensive based on the assumption.  I have no problem with sisters who want to make money off of their body on their terms (just like men do so in various injurious sports).  What I find offensive would be men controlling women's choices and/or pressuring them into things.

 

  In the same way, I have no problem if someone wants to explicitly barter their orbs for favor at loot time, but I find it offensive for it to be presumed that I buy into such an agreement whether I provide the orb or not.  For such an agreement, I'd expect prior communication.   Ex: 2 days ago CS was on the dailies.  I hit LFP w/me as leader and invited people to the 2nd half of that quest with me providing the orb and loot to be distributed "normally", by bid. 

 

All  party members participated in the 2nd half.  Compare that to the "assumed case" (where you claim most assume moml):  in 3 prior runs of that dungeon (different days), ALL members quit after 1st fight.  None of them wanted to bother with the 2nd half given the possibility of loot privilege by the orb holder.

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 4:59 AM, Shunaia said:

If it is an orb spent by another player, you SHOULD respect the unwritten rule that most of the civil people in this community adhere to, being the "MOML/YOYL" rule.

Most players don't "respect" the vocally enforced privilege, they just avoid dealing with it.  That isn't respect.  In a way, what I found respectful is them taking my word that I expected them to follow normal rules of the game and bid on final loot: and one person outbid everyone by bidding 1g+ ~50s on EACH of the 6 items.  I thanked everyone for the party and that was that. 

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 4:59 AM, Shunaia said:

If you're too cheap to acquire the orbs on your own and/or present your orb in your runs, that's up to you, but you'll often get grouped with other freeloaders...

This is an example of fantasy and imagination.  As I've said before, I've bought (and buy) them in bulk and keep them on me at all times.  So why would you posit a situation that I'd be too cheap or freeload when I always carry a stash around with me?

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 4:59 AM, Shunaia said:

You can expect people to be okay with you bidding on their clan's main tank's loot/drop goal, when you're just a guest in THEIR run.

However, in the case when someone is just being a butt-lord, feeling entitled to all the loot in a non-static group or raid, just because they are a higher Hongmoon level than you - if it's a PUG, you don't have to listen to him/her.

More cases from imagination.  I made it explicit that I was only talking about a random collection of people where there was no prior agreement.

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 4:59 AM, Shunaia said:

It WOULD be crappy if you were bidding on an [unusable] item...

[or if others] are being hindered and impeded by your troll bids.

[or if] want something for an alt,

Don't be a butt-lord.

Again... all imaginary scenarios.  For someone who claims to have read my replies, you do "far more harm when you go off, half-cocked, and [are] too quick to blame and accuse others the way you do" for things they clearly did not do.  Your imaginary scenarios had nothing to do with the situations I've asked about.  Perhaps rather than coming up with such scenarios you might try to fix yourself and your own 'listening skills' before burning others at the stake.

 

It's sad some feel a need to cast me as a villain to make their points.

 

Edited by Astarae
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Fiana   

all of these rule is not set by the game, but by community

- moml in heaven mandate
- don't do bid troll on something you don't need (taikan skin, forging orb, dungeon weapon upgrade)
- if you're on clan, and doing raid, and you're team mate tank is haven't properly geared, then give the gear to him, 

- if you're on pug raid, don't do troll bid on item if you don't have gold for it, there are many ppl who bid, and say "sorry i don't want it"

- if you already have BT gear, and have yet reach stage 9 or 10, don't bid for that element, give those for someone else who need it

all of these rule is made based on honor and respect with each other
i've seen few clan get disband simply because bid gear on raid

but if you don't want to do any of those code of honor, you can simply break all of them, no one can stop you from doing that, there no in game mechanic that prevent you from doing anything

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Khaen   

This thread is a thinly veiled throwback to your previous topic, which should have more or less clarified to you the common courtesy in terms of the White Orb, which you disagree with. Loot rules outside of those circumstances should be a simple matter of applying logic. Is it necessary to sardonically dramatize every bad mannered player and bad encounter onto the forums and ridicule community set social etiquette and morality as "special rules"? 

 

Regarding your initial encounter that spawned this whole mess, where the offended person resented your ignorant bid on the loot made available by their White Orb and cussed at you, did it ever occur to you that they see themselves as being the victim of theft perpetrated by you? Consider further the fact that you are unable to initiate trade within F8 cross servers, and that perhaps your offer to trade back the loot would seem like a mockery and an insult? If you weren't aware of this latter information before, then consider yourself informed now.

 

You are closely nurturing a sense of victimization where opinions contrary to your own just feeds into your sense of being in the right. 

Your chauvinistic analogy was uncalled for, it is totally irrelevant to the topic and the fact that you even brought it up as a comparison is painting a very murky image of you.

 

Please stop lashing out vicariously for your own hurt feelings. You are cultivating a rather difficult presence for yourself. It is unfortunate that you got burned by circumstances, but don't let that make you embittered, just move on.  

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Astarae   

Anytime you are in a family you have family rules.  A clan is an extended family...  The only thing I don't agree with is the one that is outside of a clan and made assumed with strangers w/o communication. 

 

Nearly all of what you say is common sense -- why would you bid on something you don't need (unless you don't know you don't need it?)

 

If you don't have gold for an item, how can you bid on it?  makes no sense.  99% of the time I pass on everything unless there is something I really want -- then I'll bid to whatever limit I set for myself (which may be all the gold I have at a given point).  Occasionally I'll offer half-hearted bids for things I *could* use (bags of crystals and such).

...BT gear?...yet to reach stage 9/10 don't bid for that element?  You mean don't bid for ANOTHER of the same item?  If so, another rule that makes sense. 

 

There is no honor in doing what makes sense or avoiding what would be "stupid", unless one doesn't know (or can't know).

 

Only item on your list that doesn't make sense is that an orb isn't considered a gift to a party.  If you don't want to donate your orb to a party, don't travel w/a party without being willing to negotiate up front.  Everything else makes sense to me, but I'd consider people who donate a gift up front and "expect" to get others to buy into some arbitrary rule that they get all the treasure just asking for trouble.  Doesn't make sense to me. 

 

It is the non-communication of their expectations followed by assumptions that they get a reward for something I'd consider a trivial, 5-10cent gift to party.  That's where I disagree.    Anyone who wants no problem in that area -- just communicate up front when forming a party.  No prob.  But default rules that don't make inherent or natural sense?   What really makes no sense to me is getting stingy over a 5-10cent gift.  It's already a hassle for me to form a group for a full cold-storage run or an HM run -- to explain that my donating an orb to a party doesn't mean I'm expecting anything, and that I'd expect loot distribution to be by normal bid. 

 

I mean normally, I'll be generous to a fault -- including giving away farmed "currency" for an outfit or such, once I've gotten my outfit, or even continuing to help kill a boss for others that don't have the outfit yet.  I've easily given away

close to 100 'currency orbs/medallions/whatevers'  to someone I was co-farming a boss with because I didn't need

them when I was done.  Similar with current event -- people needing kills to reach goals/get titles.  I suggested to some that we trade kills... ended up only doing it w/one person -- who got 20-30 needed kills for some achievement or item -- when it came time for me to kill them, I realized there wasn't anything on list that I wanted... and told them that -- and

I didn't need the kills (and don't even remember their name now if I changed my mind). 

 

I've been playing about 2.5 months.  I generally try to go out of my way to help others and hope I'm doing the right thing.  But some things that don't make sense seem to cause more contention, than not.

 

Bright blessings!

 

 

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Astarae   
10 hours ago, Khaen said:

This thread is a thinly veiled throwback to your previous topic,

You mean both topics are examples of artificial rules imposed by those demanding privilege for some perceived contribution.  In that you are quite right.

10 hours ago, Khaen said:

Loot rules outside of those circumstances should be a simple matter of applying logic. 

Should be.  But when they don't follow logic, I've checked here.  The answers give me more confidence in relying on my own intuition in such a situation.  Dogma, regardless of source is almost always a red-flag for me, as it indicates a disconnect from logic replaced by belief. 

10 hours ago, Khaen said:

[previous topic] which should have more or less clarified to you the common courtesy in terms of the White Orb.

It is not common courtesy, because, commonly, people wouldn't create a special rule about something of such little worth. 

 

It's like offering someone a free sugar cube to go with a cup of coffee or tea and expecting something in return.  The idea that someone would offer a free sugar cube and expect or demand some later compensation (as a "common courtesy") to be ridiculous or laughable.

 

10 hours ago, Khaen said:

Regarding your initial encounter that spawned this whole mess, where the offended person resented your ignorant bid on the loot made available by their White Orb and cussed at you, did it ever occur to you that they see themselves as being the victim of theft perpetrated by you?

Umm...maybe, but we are talking less than 1 silver, or about a 40th of 1 cent.  You mentioned using "common sense" -- do I think it was likely that they were that bent of shape over a 40th of a cent?  This is the point I am making about saying that the unnegotiated position   be that they assume they get the loot unchallenged.  You'd never see such a reaction in the real-world over such an amount -- yet assuming "moml" in "uncommunicated situations leads to such irrational behavior.  That's another "common sense reason" why I see it as way more toxic to the community than not having such a rule.

10 hours ago, Khaen said:

You are closely nurturing a sense of victimization...

I raise questions about 2 instances which seemed odd to me.  You elevate my reality check to me nurturing a sense of victimization?  Um.... hyperbole?

10 hours ago, Khaen said:

Your chauvinistic analogy was uncalled for, it is totally irrelevant to the topic and the fact that you even brought it up as a comparison is painting a very murky image of you.


Calling an analogy of two different situations based on assumed privilege "chauvinistic" seems more to be about an attempt to equate someone who uses an analogy with some sort of chauvinism.  They are aren't causally nor inherently related.  Confusing and connecting those concepts appears more to be consistent with trying to discredit the speaker (or in this case, writer).  

10 hours ago, Khaen said:

Please stop lashing out vicariously for your own hurt feelings. You are cultivating a rather difficult presence for yourself. It is unfortunate that you got burned by circumstances, but don't let that make you embittered, just move on.

I'm lashing out?  You are joking, right?  Am I attempting to discredit your character (personality) and play arm-chair psychologist with your murky, victimized self-image,  attempting to compensate for for a such a bitter and ravaging experience? 

 

More with the hyperbole?  How about projection?  I moved on from the experience over a week ago, yet some late-comers to this thread still feel a need to rehash and again try to convince that others of their claiming and holding some moral high ground. 

 

The more the need to convince -- the more I see it as toxic (conversely , I'm sure some see my having opinions of my own about things to be examples of some form of "badness").  C'est la vie.

 

Au revoire  

 

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SkFy   
On 09/02/2018 at 4:09 AM, Lunakitty said:

Seen this kind of things happening in BT and I find it unfair. Everyone in the party contributed same amount of time for the boss kills so everyone should be treated equally and not by the level and gear. The person was just being super greedy and selfish so just ignore those people. The greedy people usually cry the most. Regards from soon to be HM15 o/

Agree with this.. always say the same.. we all press the same amount of keys, if u rly carry people i can understand it just a little bit they couldnt have done it without you and usually did work hard to get there.. but even then..

Some people just feel special cause they have gear.. often just gear carried noobs i wouldnt wanna play with anyway

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