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person w/an orb takes all party loot?


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23 hours ago, Astarae said:

I encountered a "rule"[sic] that doesn't make sense.  If someone needs a party to do a dungeon, but they have a needed white orb, then the party gets no loot?  If the person w/the orb doesn't want to share loot, then why go w/a party?

 

I had the "audacity" to bid for 1 item in a 4-item loot, where we went in with someone else's orb instead of mine, then they got all hostile because they said they owned the loot at the end because they used their orb.  Huh?   Then how is anyone but them getting anything?  I rarely bid on most things, but I thought I'd try to bid on 1 item only to be told i wasn't allowed?  That because I had and won, I was ...well, all sorts of things half of them in spanish.  Can someone explain why they ask for a group of strangers to form a party w/them (I'd chosen that quest as it was one of my dailies). 

 

OTOH, should I have rushed to use my orb ahead of the other person to lock them out of the treasure -- would that have made them happy (I sorta doubt it)?  i'd think they'd then complain that stole their party or something similarly specious.

 

It seems more than a little unfair that only one person gets all in a party.  It also seems it's also broken game dynamics that cause this.  So wazzup up w/this?

 

Confused about party dynamics...

-A

 

Can't blame you. Just chill. The party members were just protecting the orb user (this is good) if you are the one using the orb, people would also welcome others protecting you.

 

Perhaps they should have explained rather than harshly abuse. So that's an attitude problem we see day to day.

 

Non-orb users usually join the party to clear daily challenge, get quick exp from a fast to clear dungeon. Leveling slows down a lot at later stages, so you will slowly understand that clearing with a group in a short dungeon is what people like to do just to get that exp fast.

 

Loot wise. Orb is not cheap, at least the community is recognizing the contribution of the orb user.

 

Trust me when I say you haven't see toxic players yet. Cause there are times when u explain the "rule" to the non orb user, he will continue to bid up the price just to Jack it up or insist in bidding for the item. Just play abit longer and use your orb, when this hits you, you will know why some players lose their cool and don't even care to explain.

 

Hope above gives you abit of insight on BNS culture.

All the best.

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It isn't some "secret' rule its a rule that everyone knows about and has been in place since the start of Heaven's Mandate. The only people who might not know about it are new players but even then th

It's just a thing that is something the community has all secretly agreed upon to let the person with the orb get loot as a thank you and out of respect for them using the orb in the first place to le

Am 27.1.2018 um 13:19 schrieb Statler:

Its a long term unwritten rule on heavens mandate most players know and agree to, even on LFP-Recruitment.

 

Last time i looked on market for an orb it was about 7 gold worth.

What you get:

Feathers: can only be used to buy Soul Stage 1 or an addon for the Hongmoon White Costume. So pretty useless since you get a better Soul from the Story

Naryu Tablet: pretty useless for most of us

 

 

 

Srsly? You can upgrade the hongmoon soul to 40 ap and another bonus if i remember right.

 

Im a returning player and dont have hongmoon soul yet. So i really need the feathers. Also like said before the white ball is expensive with 3g in my server.

Edited by Belleee
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7 minutes ago, Belleee said:

Srsly? You can upgrade the hongmoon soul to 40 ap and another bonus if i remember right.

 

Im a returning player and dont have hongmoon soul yet. So i really need the feathers. Also like said before the white ball is expensive with 3g in my server.

You get a stage 3 Soul from doing the story, so no, you won't need the feathers.

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vor 17 Minuten schrieb Belleee:

Srsly? You can upgrade the hongmoon soul to 40 ap and another bonus if i remember right.

You remeber right, but its pretty useless anyway since you get the soul of seolak from the storyquest which is a 19 AP Soul (Stage 1 Soul is 15AP) and which can be upgraded to Stage 4 Soul, saving you 2 upgrades from Stage 2 to 3 and 3 to 4

So buying the Stage 1 Soul with feather is simply a waste of time ;)

Edited by Statler
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Interesting. I am assuming you are talking about HM. I normally solo HM as most of us can. But when it is the daily challenge, I kindly provide another 5 people a chance to finish it. Now you come in and finish your daily request instead of thanking me for my orb, you want the loot too. I do not know what kind of logic is that. However, as last time someone from DE server trying to overbid me the duster and waste me more than 100 gold. I only solo CS and HM now. And it takes me not even 10 seconds more than with a party.

If you are not talking about HM, ignore me.

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13 hours ago, Azurelis said:

Can't blame you. Just chill. The party members were just protecting the orb user (this is good) if you are the one using the orb, people would also welcome others protecting you.

Perhaps they should have explained rather than harshly abuse. So that's an attitude problem we see day to day.

Hope above gives you abit of insight on BNS culture.

All the best.

Actually, it was the orb person who went ballistic.  Three other party members left the orbie He and another who seemed to be a friend.  I offered to give some crystal containing box (or equiv) back to them which got me another round of name calling. 

 

If they were really miffed about being out the gold or orb, I could have given them either.  They didn't want that -- they wanted to swear and make me wrong.  I tried to make it up to them (even though I felt they were wrong), just to eliminate the bad vibe, but w/them it wasn't an option.  That makes me think they are more about forcing their rules on me, than any form of reparation or fairness.

 

If i'm not on a quest where I am going to need an orb, I leave mine in long-term storage so I won't accidently toss it or do something else lame w/it.  Whereas I moved my orb stack into inventory just before this quest.  I had no idea someone else was going to stuff their orb and then demand all treasure.  There were 2 of the crystal containing boxes.  I bid on the 2nd and passed on everything else. 

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Most of the drops from Cold Storage and Heavens Mandate are useless to me now however I solo both those dungeons each day for the pouches.  I work hard to get my white orbs by farming solo in Zaiwei Ruins and I cant be bothered doing all that work to give someone else a free ride.

 

The more people whinge about the person using their orbs to start these dungeons the more people are going to solo.  That in itself is a good thing for me cos I will probably see a lot more of you in Zaiwei Ruins farming for them :D

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Opening last boss in Cold Storage is literally a loss of gold for who-ever uses the orb.

Orb costs ~4g and the one thing that CAN drop that is worth anything is a treasure pouch which is roughly worth ~1g, and some extremely rare 1/100000 reward. Who-ever opens the last boss / Jinsoyun should get the loot for letting others leech. Only time you should get free bid is if auction from first boss dropped an orb.

EDIT: but like others have said, I'm done with random idiots ignoring this and bidding anyway so I just solo those dungeons as it takes 10 seconds, rip leechers

Edited by KingFresh
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3 hours ago, KingFresh said:

Opening last boss in Cold Storage is literally a loss of gold for who-ever uses the orb.

Orb costs ~4g and the one thing that CAN drop that is worth anything is a treasure pouch which is roughly worth ~1g, and some extremely rare 1/100000 reward. Who-ever opens the last boss / Jinsoyun should get the loot for letting others leech. Only time you should get free bid is if auction from first boss dropped an orb.

EDIT: but like others have said, I'm done with random idiots ignoring this and bidding anyway so I just solo those dungeons as it takes 10 seconds, rip leechers

Orbs are <2.5G, or 2.3G in lots of 10. 

 

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With Mandate it just become an unspoken rule.. When I do Mandate.. I always share the loot when I'm on my summoner for the fact that I have the outfit that drops there already on her. I don't mind sharing the loot. a lot of people don't bid so I end up getting all the loot anyways.. I mean most of it I don't even need. The Treasure pouch is pretty much all i need from there and if people need feathers or whatever they are more then welcome to it. I always provide the Orb in Storage also. The 2nd boss has a chance to drop a Pet Pod but its a small chance. But most leave and I will solo that boss

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To explain it simply, it's an unwritten rule based on common sense and courtesy.

 

Everyone gets something from completing Heaven's Mandate... but someone actually had to use something (something that requires time, effort, money or luck) to get. They essentially invested in everyone's ability to complete the dungeon. So, don't they deserve to get something back?

 

Let's face it... if you wanted to do HM and didn't have an orb... you either rely on someone else to provide one or you have to go find one. Someone saved you the trouble and, instead of giving them the slightest bit of respect, you decide to be a greedy, self-entitled brat and run with everything you can carry in your grubby little mits? Then why would anyone want to use their orbs?

 

But, that's the "me first" attitude people have in this community... and why questioning something like it is pretty pathetic.

 

Long story short, they invested the item that let you do the dungeon, they deserve the couple of extra items from the loot chest at the end more than you do

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2 hours ago, SilverFoxR said:

Everyone gets something from completing Heaven's Mandate... but someone actually had to use something (something that requires time, effort, money or luck) to get. They essentially invested in everyone's ability to complete the dungeon. So, don't they deserve to get something back?

Deserve?  Just as much as whales _deserve_ to get such considerations back from the community for supporting the f2p players.

I thought the "whales" shouldn't be getting the negativity they get, but do they deserve other considerations?  If you believe so, I think you are in the minority.  Most don't feel you should get extra consideration just because you paid money to get some bonus that would have, otherwise, required lengthy farming. 

 

That's EXACTLY what this is -- someone pays money to skip having to farm and then expects the rest of the community to give them special treatment for having paid  2G instead of farming it.  That's *exactly* why I don't agree that they should get special privileges.  If whales are disparaged for paying and even more hated should they think that they deserve to get some special treatment from the community for having purchased a hard-to-farm item, then how can someone justify that orb-whales who purchase their orb "deserve" any more special treatment than other whales.

 

 

2 hours ago, SilverFoxR said:

Everyone gets something from completing Heaven's Mandate... but someone actually had to use something (something that requires time, effort, money or luck) to get. They essentially invested in everyone's ability to complete the dungeon. So, don't they deserve to get something back?

Everyone gets something?  Even if they don't need it for a daily?  What do they get?  Everyone already supplied something to the orb-source.  Themselves!  

 

When I was less advanced (dunno, maybe even still), I tried soloing HM and got killed in short order.  I had orbs, but w/o a party, I wouldn't have been able to complete it.   How is the orb holder compensating the party?  They aren't providing the "completion" -- that's a side-effect of completing that dungeon, but every party member brings supplies and talents to the dungeon to complete it.

 

Just like a security squad might guard a person at an event, they still would get paid whether they are guarding superman or super-wimp.   If the person being guarded claimed that their pay was the privilege of being around his or herself, I doubt they would be pleased with such a privileged attitude and would be more insistent about getting "normal pay" -- in this case, the ability to bid.

 

If a group wants to give a perk to someone supplying a unique "key" to get into the dungeon, they might allow 1st pick from the treasure, but it would be rare to give them all of the treasure/loot, so why here?

 

2 hours ago, SilverFoxR said:

Let's face it... if you wanted to do HM and didn't have an orb... you either rely on someone else to provide one or you have to go find one. Someone saved you the trouble and, instead of giving them the slightest bit of respect, ... Then why would anyone want to use their orbs?

Similarly, if you wanted to do HM and couldn't do it w/o a party, you need to find a party that will assist you.  So those people save your character from dying and allow them to complete the dungeon and instead of giving the party "the slightest bit of respect" -- Why would anyone want to form a party with an orb holder?

 

2 hours ago, SilverFoxR said:

But, that's the "me first" attitude people have in this community... and why questioning something like it is pretty pathetic.

Long story short, they invested the item that let you do the dungeon, they deserve the couple of extra items from the loot chest at the end more than you do.

 

Only 1 person can use their orb.  That doesn't mean multiple people might not have orbs with them and expect to use them.  The orb holder shuts everyone else out of the treasure by using their first.  You call that "fair"?  If they don't communicate beforehand, how is that not stealing?   If they stuff their orb first and claim the final treasure is theirs because they provided the orb, that looks alot like stealing everyone else's opportunity.

 

Because there is NO way for multiple people to deposit their orb, then being the one who stuffs their orb first shouldn't be used as a basis for determining sole ownership of the final treasure.  It's not fair to the rest of the party.

 

Long story short -- they appropriated (stole) the opportunity for others to use their orb and get treasure at the end.    If they are providing the orb as a gift to the party, they deserve a "ty", but if they are using it to claim the final treasure -- I don't see that they should deserve a special reward for trying to lock out everyone else.

 

 

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Astarae, your entitlement is frankly astounding- have some consideration for your participation in the community as a whole.  HM has NOTHING that can recoup the value of an orb- no crazy drops, just the requirement of running it for a daily.  And as others have already said, your mentality is what further cements anyone with half decent gear as soloing it themselves. This isn't just about the loot, it's about respect for someone who gave something of value for you to benefit off.  Grow up a bit and think outside yourself for a second.

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36 minutes ago, Astarae said:

So those people save your character from dying and allow them to complete the dungeon and instead of giving the party "the slightest bit of respect" -- Why would anyone want to form a party with an orb holder?

Because anyone wants a daily and doesn't want to spend their time or gold on orbs. As for "allow to complete" part:

Quote

I do less than 50% of the next lowest DPS in parties

Yeah, without you they definitely can't beat Jinsoyun, that's for sure. Even freshman should be able to do it, given that 2 dragonblood are available and mechs (if they can't skip them) are simple.

 

Edited by Gennady
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1 hour ago, Astarae said:

The orb holder shuts everyone else out of the treasure by using their first.  You call that "fair"?  If they don't communicate beforehand, how is that not stealing?   If they stuff their orb first and claim the final treasure is theirs because they provided the orb, that looks alot like stealing everyone else's opportunity.

 

Because there is NO way for multiple people to deposit their orb, then being the one who stuffs their orb first shouldn't be used as a basis for determining sole ownership of the final treasure.  It's not fair to the rest of the party.

 

Long story short -- they appropriated (stole) the opportunity for others to use their orb and get treasure at the end.    If they are providing the orb as a gift to the party, they deserve a "ty", but if they are using it to claim the final treasure -- I don't see that they should deserve a special reward for trying to lock out everyone else.

 

 

You aren't shut out of the dungeon just because someone uses an orb and no one is forcing you to stay so they didn't steal anything. If someone uses an orb then leave the party, form your own group, use YOUR own got damn orb and allow others to bid on the loot, simple. The fact that this is even a discussion is hilarious. I'm almost sure that you are trolling lol.

Edited by ClassicMan
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37 minutes ago, Fin said:

Astarae, your entitlement...

My entitlement?  It's the orb holder who doesn't communicate ahead of time that is presuming that they are entitled.  Where do you get that I'm presuming entitlement?    I didn't (and don't) assume that supplying a orb entitles me to anything.  It's that many assume they are entitled to something ahead of time that we are discussing.   The game allocates treasure based on its rules.  Some feel the should be entitled to rewards beyond what the game allocates.  I don't see how I'm assuming I'm entitled to something just because I bought a "key".

 

Could you explain how you see my caring about this indicates "entitlement"? 

 

21 minutes ago, ClassicMan said:

You aren't shut out of the dungeon just because someone uses an orb and no one is forcing you to stay so they didn't steal anything.

You are creating a strawman argument about things I didn't say.  Pointless.  I did say shut out of the treasure in a specific dungeon run. 

21 minutes ago, ClassicMan said:

 If someone uses an orb then leave the party, form your own group...

In 1 of the instances I was the party "leader" -- it's a bit random when you "LFP" in "F8"...

21 minutes ago, ClassicMan said:

use YOUR own orb and allow others to bid on the loot, simple.

That's a no-brainer on my part, but communicating that to others before they leave can be challenging, which is one reason for discussing it here.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Astarae said:

You are creating a strawman argument about things I didn't say.  Pointless.  I did say shut out of the treasure in a specific dungeon run. 

In 1 of the instances I was the party "leader" -- it's a bit random when you "LFP" in "F8"...

That's a no-brainer on my part, but communicating that to others before they leave can be challenging, which is one reason for discussing it here.

 

 

Exactly and by saying you are shut out of the treasure, you are implying that just because someone uses an orb it means that you can't leave and re-enter the dungeon again. So pretty much you are implying that if someone uses their orb then you are shut out of the dungeon which I thought I should point out that you aren't. You can recruit in f8 without pressing lfp button with the message "I have an orb" you will get a full room of people instantly that won't use an orb.

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1 hour ago, MassiveEgo said:

@Astarae You are joining a run with very specific rules to it. If you don't agree with the rules or don't want to follow them, don't join.

Or work to change this practice.  If they don't announce their rules prior to forming a party, I don't see it being right for them to spring it on people later. 

 

It really seems to only be HM, as, at least the last time cold-storage featured in a daily, you didn't need to visit the 2nd boss to get credit.  So everyone just left after I used an orb to open up that part of the quest -- exactly what I predicted -- people who don't get to use their orb have no incentive to stay.  So I finished the 2nd boss off solo. 

 

Basically, with rules of orb-person take all treasure, no one wanted to take on the 2nd half of cold-storage.  I wonder how many don't bother w/HM because of this practice. 

 

 

Edited by Astarae
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1 hour ago, Astarae said:

Or work to change this practice.  If they don't announce their rules prior to forming a party, I don't see it being right for them to spring it on people later. 

 

It really seems to only be HM, as, at least the last time cold-storage featured in a daily, you didn't need to visit the 2nd boss to get credit.  So everyone just left after I used an orb to open up that part of the quest -- exactly what I predicted -- people who don't get to use their orb have no incentive to stay.  So I finished the 2nd boss off solo. 

 

Basically, with rules of orb-person take all treasure, no one wanted to take on the 2nd half of cold-storage.  I wonder how many don't bother w/HM because of this practice. 

 

 

People only do heavens mandate when it's a Daily challenge. Their is zero reason to do heavens mandate otherwise. Because like others have said the loot you get doesn't balance out the cost of a white orb. Just to let you know the community has been asking to remove the white orb requirement and the item all together since obtaining a white orb is just not worth the time or effort.

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2 hours ago, Astarae said:

Basically, with rules of orb-person take all treasure, no one wanted to take on the 2nd half of cold-storage.  I wonder how many don't bother w/HM because of this practice.

People don't bother doing 2nd half of CS because it's not worth it. Nothing drops there (apart from petpod once a year)  and it requires you to use orb worth few golds. Pointless. Even if I solo it I don't bother killing second part.. I'd rather keep orbs for HM. And as for HM, people only do it when they need fast/easy daily challange fill.. that's it.

If you think it's because of the rule that people don't want to do it.. bring some orbs and tell your party you have it and you'll open it.. 95% of them will jump on that boat for free 45k exp and other 5% probably has better things to do.

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1 hour ago, Lee Nyan said:

  45k exp

45k exp?  it was about half that as a daily.  When/how do you get 45k?

 

2 hours ago, Crahzi said:

the community has been asking to remove the white orb requirement

that'd make more sense, since the quest is flawed as it is now...

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This...

12 hours ago, Astarae said:

Everyone gets something?  Even if they don't need it for a daily?  What do they get?  Everyone already supplied something to the orb-source.  Themselves!  

[...]

Just like a security squad might guard a person at an event, they still would get paid whether they are guarding superman or super-wimp.   If the person being guarded claimed that their pay was the privilege of being around his or herself, I doubt they would be pleased with such a privileged attitude and would be more insistent about getting "normal pay" -- in this case, the ability to bid.

 

And this...

3 hours ago, Astarae said:

Basically, with rules of orb-person take all treasure, no one wanted to take on the 2nd half of cold-storage.  I wonder how many don't bother w/HM because of this practice. 

You need to get better at trolling my friend. First rule of proper trolling - you need to be consistent in what you are saying if you don't want people to stop responding to your agitations. But when you do it like that people call BS, and start to ignore you.
As to show why what you say is BS lets look at quotations.
Yes, everyone gets something from HM dungeon. Yes, they get paid. Not by orb user. By game. Simply as that. Something around what, 1,5g (without premium membership)? And some mats and retrived hongmoon secret technique (page) or what is it called.
And what drops from boss?
-Few feathers (that are useless),
-something around 1 pouch (with random mats inside, players consider it to be worth around 1g, and this value is based on tests with opening many of them and counting average price of mats)
-and very, and I mean very (sth like 0,0001%), rare chance to drop pet that costs around 70-80g (should be sth around this value).
So, to sum up, going by what both groups get from this dungeon:
a) normal leech gets his daily mission done, easy 1,5g with few thousands of exp and other completion rewards
b) orb user - he lost sth aruond 2,5g (as you said somewhere before price of an orb) to open this instance for everyone, got 1,5g from completing daily quest. At this point he/she comes out at this point at minus 1g. So he/she is not getting any profit. Now when we consider loot goes into pocket of THE ORB USEEEEER in this (simplified) equation.

orb cost + daily mission completion reward +n*number of pouches = reward that goes to orb user,
which can be translated into more mathematical:

(-2,5g)+1,5g+n*1g=x_n

where n stands for number of pouches (usually only one, but there are situations where whooping 2 dropped, so n={1,2}).
As there is not many of cases, lets visualise both of them.
for n = 1
x_1 = 1,5g + 1g - 2,5g
x_1 = 0

for n = 2
x_2 = 1,5g + 2g - 2,5g
x_2 = 1g

So, in both cases orb user is rewarded less than leechers (even with all loot belonging to orb guy). Yes, there is a very, very slight chance for rare drop, but statistically, in long time, it still doesn't amount to (less than leechers) gold orb user is getting.
To be honest, this 2,5g is not really significant cost, but for f2p guys fresh out of story... yeah they may look at this different. I see this unwritten rule as more protecting poor f2p and lower mid tier players than whales (this is laughable amount of gold for them, but nevertheless being whale do not force them to give out charity or pay 'whale tax' and give up loot that in the end all of players need shittone of it; if whale goes into HM dungeon by F8, then usually he/she consider getting lower reward than leech as a price of saving time on not teleporting around map to enter dungeon solo).

And about Cold Storage orb usage. You were talking about 'paying bodyguards' for their service. I belive there is no daily quest on second boss unlocked by white orb. Also, this boss drops nothing or next to nothing. So if other players are not rewarded for their effort, they would usually leave. And unless you offered to, beside being an orb donor, pay them for 'bodyguard' job, I belive that almost all of playerbase would leave (there are a few nutjobs that may help you with killing boss out of their benevolent heart).

So all in all it balances itself. Do not take us f2p guys lightly and claim that we bow to whales.

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3 hours ago, Astarae said:

45k exp?  it was about half that as a daily.  When/how do you get 45k?

My bad.. full quest for CS is around 45k. That's what I kept in mind for some time now.
I stopped paying attention to exp values when my HM skill exp jumped over 200 mil per lvl lol

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