Astarae

person w/an orb takes all party loot?

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9 hours ago, Astarae said:

Or work to change this practice.  If they don't announce their rules prior to forming a party, I don't see it being right for them to spring it on people later. 

They're not "springing it" on people later. They clearly state what the terms of the run are. Let me explain to you the full meaning of moml. It means "This Heaven's Mandate run is going to be done with my orb and I'm taking all the loot. If you agree to this, join." aka "come to do your daily quests and get some exp." Same applies to the Kaari lord in Cold Storage. Considering I can solo it in under 20 seconds, how is it not charity to take 5 chaps with me so they can get the 42k exp and a kill for the achievement? I can just as easily leave, re-enter and do it on my own and nobody can tell me a word for doing so. Of course there is always the white orb drop and the overall agreement for that one is decided on a run to run basis, since sometimes people are willing to big full price for it cause they need it for the Mandate. Other runs all agree that the orb belongs to the party, use it to summon the Kaari lord and then share the loot like in other dungeons.

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To answer your question, Astarae, on what everyone gets from doing HM... they get a little exp, a little gold, the dynamic quest rewards and the Daily Quest rewards.

 

As for the "I brought myself! That's important too!" argument you brought up, guess what? They ALSO brought themselves... AND they also brought and USED their orb. Once again, they could have gotten any sort of random person to join them and not very much would matter. But if everyone joined the party and nobody brought a White Orb... then what? The party would be forced to disband and find someone else who did.

 

So, again, the person with the orb spend an item to give the rest of the party the ability to complete the dungeon. Everyone gets their completion bonus, but the one who essentially paid everyone's ticket deserves the few items at the end from the box. Why? Because they gave up something for the party that the rest of the party did not. That is the whole reason people came up with such an unwritten rule and that's why it's frowned upon to start bidding on things the person with the orb wants.

 

Stop trying to argue this point. You are coming off like a self-entitled brat. If you don't like it, start your own parties using your own orbs. Trust me, since White Orbs are still quite annoying to get, it'll take seconds in the cross-server to make a full party if they know you're providing the orb. And furthermore, since this little unwritten rule is there, simply form a party and type in those 4 simple letters into your recruitment message - MOML (My Orb, My Loot). Most people (who aren't greedy, self-entitled brats) will be more than happy to let you take the loot at the end and be on their merry way. Or heck, just get strong enough to solo HM and go to the Altar of Divine Will and do it all by yourself.

 

Either way, stop fighting with the community on how they made up an unwritten rule revolving around the concept of basic human courtesy.

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Astarae   
20 hours ago, Samiczka said:

You need to get better at trolling my friend. First rule of proper trolling - you need to be consistent

Sorry, haven't studied under a master such as yourself.  I don't claim to be consistent.  A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

 

In regards to your math -- please remember, that an orb at 2.3G, = about 5 cents ($0.05). 

 

You are talking about someone giving you something worth a nickel, and then wanting some recompense.

 

Con men used to do similar through the mail -- sending some 5-cent item -- but then sends you a bill for it.  If you didn't agree to the exchange before hand -- then the item sent w/o prior discussion is to be considered a "gift".  If you want to deal -- talk -- given your ability to write, I assume you can arrange a discussion in advance.  But if you just give an orb to the party -- then we thank you.  End of story, though who knows, I might bow to you on the way out. 

Edited by Astarae
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Astarae   
11 hours ago, SilverFoxR said:

As for the "I brought myself! That's important too!" argument you brought up, guess what? They ALSO brought themselves... AND they also brought and USED their orb.

I didn't ask them to.  I have a dozen or so in inventory.  They took away my opportunity to have a normal party where people bid on the loot at the end.  No, I don't feel I should have to quit now, but that doesn't mean I will reward their non-consensual assumptions.

 

No talking/communication, then no rule applies.  It's rude for someone to shove their unwritten rule down other people's throats.  If you want them to buy into some unwritten rule -- then be sure to confirm or communicate about it first.

 

Obviously it's only a problem for people who don't communicate which doesn't seem to apply to most people here.

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Trix   

I'ts people like the OP who are the reason i solo cold storage and heavens mandate, as much as i'd like to help lower geared players have a nice smooth run through the dungeons to complete their daily challenges i'm tired of the selfishness of the few who ruin it for the many.

Edited by Trix

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Astarae   
26 minutes ago, Trix said:

@Astarae People like you are the reason i solo cold storage and heavens mandate, as much as i'd like to help lower geared players have a nice smooth run through the dungeons to complete their daily challenges i'm tired of the selfishness of the few who ruin it for the many.

Society is built on communication.  So are relationships (parties being 1 example).  Is it so hard for you to communicate what you want before you use your orb?  I can solo HM and, at least, the 2nd half of ColdStorage.  Only reason I qualify CS, is I just haven't soloed the 1st half,  yet.

 

What I don't get is how it is selfish to ask someone to talk about using a 5¢ token, before claiming that everyone in the party is beholden to you for spending it. 

 

As for me being "selfish"... that's a laugh...I've escorted several newbies through some boss ended-dungeon -- and I've always bowed out of treasure distribution.  If I'm giving of my time (or an orb), I wouldn't think to cheapen my giving by demanding compensation after the fact -- how small.

 

No one seems to get that this isn't about the money or value of "whatever", it's about presumptions and assumptions (and getting sworn at for never having heard of such a rule).  I *offered* to compensate them -- they preferred to continue to berate me.

It had nothing to do with treasure or money, but their complete lack of communication and tirade that they brought on themselves by "assuming" that *everyone* knew about this unwritten rule. 

 

If you want a rule -- communicate it.  Ask if anyone wants to contrib an orb free of strings, or for first choice on any item, or for entire chest... whatever works and people want.  I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have cared and would have let them have the whole thing if they'd given me the option to decide rather than trying to decide for me.

 

 

Edited by Astarae
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Trix   

I'm sorry you had a bad experience over not understanding the moml rule, it's easy to forget that some people who bid may be new players or simply had a lapse of memory and clicked without thinking which is why i always made a point of explaining. The reason people get aggressive is because even after being told there's often someone who will bid regardless.

 

When you use an item/orb for the benefit of the group rather than selling it to use towards upgrading your own character it can be upsetting when your generosity is not appreciated.

 

As people have said repeatedly the orb is worth more than the loot you get at the end anyway. The only thing of value for players who have been around long enough to get the costume etc is a treasure pouch and it's rng whether you'll even get one and if you do it's rng whether you'll get anything better then soulstones/ sacred crystals.

 

The majority of the time the person who provides the orb would have been better off hoarding their orb and waiting for someone else to give in and use theirs, which is honestly kind of a sad way to play a social game.

 

If you can't accept that the loot goes to the person who risks losing money to provide the party with a chance to complete the dungeon than you should solo the dungeon yourself.

 

 

 

Edited by Trix

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Well let me say this if you dont want anyone to take your Loot from your Orb Solo her and the same with Cold Storage deal with it or go with Freinds and so on if you think YOML but it is funny how people ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ about it so much

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all the loot is trash from mandate except for pouch (worth less than the orb) and the rare pet drop wich is worth arround 75G but is extremely rare. (been playing since shortly before WL came out and this is only the second time i see it drop) Screenshot_180126_005.jpg

Since the person using the orb is almost always loosing money it's courtessy to give then the loot, the rare pet drop should also go to the orb owner for free (odds are they more than paid for it by the time it drops). As for why they recruit for people even tho they are gonna take all the loot ?

1, courtesy, might as well spare 5 other people the pain of having to run some thing much longer to finish their dailys.

2. they can't solo. Not everyone can solo. some might be doing it on an alt so the outfit doesn't go to waste on a character that already has it

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On 1/27/2018 at 11:46 AM, ArcanumZodiak said:

i, am one of those people, i rather save it for heaven's mandate, than doing kaari lord simply becouse i get nothing out of it, and i am not doing it for the exp also. but i do bid to up 3,50 g for it.

honestly i see the one that so rarely drops as a party favor to do as a party together to kill kaari. There is an achievement for so many kaari kills just like other bosses but whenever we cant do kaari cause someone like you would prefer to run off with the orb because everyone passes assuming you will use the orb we all get screwed out of that and so we all leave empty handed one more time without getting any closers to getting that 100 kill achievement. Maybe you dont care but some of us do. Thank you for your honesty though and at least you do bid a decent amount but tell me this how can you bid that much when there are a lot of us out there that will pass automatically on your first bid assuming that you will use that on kaari? do you bid that much right off the bat or do you bid the cheap copper first to see how people react first? If everyone out there thought the way you did there would be mad bid wars on the rare orbs that drop and the orb prices in the market would probably go up even higher. 

Edited by LoliDolly

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On 01/02/2018 at 4:16 AM, LoliDolly said:

honestly i see the one that so rarely drops as a party favor to do as a party together to kill kaari. There is an achievement for so many kaari kills just like other bosses but whenever we cant do kaari cause someone like you would prefer to run off with the orb because everyone passes assuming you will use the orb we all get screwed out of that and so we all leave empty handed one more time without getting any closers to getting that 100 kill achievement. Maybe you dont care but some of us do. Thank you for your honesty though and at least you do bid a decent amount but tell me this how can you bid that much when there are a lot of us out there that will pass automatically on your first bid assuming that you will use that on kaari? do you bid that much right off the bat or do you bid the cheap copper first to see how people react first? If everyone out there thought the way you did there would be mad bid wars on the rare orbs that drop and the orb prices in the market would probably go up even higher. 

if a bid war opens and gets to 1 gold i bid up to 3.5 and keep it to myself unless some pays higher, i also like my achiecments. but i'm not geting the lord kill, i rather pay 3.5 for it than receive some silvers.

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Astarae   
On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 7:55 PM, RagingPhenix said:

Since the person using the orb is almost always loosing money it's courtessy to give then the loot...

1, courtesy, might as well spare 5 other people the pain of having to run some thing much longer to finish their dailys.

2. they can't solo. Not everyone can solo. some might be doing it on an alt so the outfit doesn't go to waste on a character that already has it

When i use the orb, it isn't courtesy to assume I'd demand the loot over a 5-10 cent item.  In real life that just doesn't happen.  As for reasons to run w/ others:   like running any dungeon and asking if others want to come -- the reasons are the same.    No special rules.

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 8:16 PM, LoliDolly said:

honestly i see the one that so rarely drops as a party favor to do as a party together to kill kaari. There is an achievement for so many kaari kills just like other bosses but whenever we cant do kaari cause someone like you would prefer to run off with the orb because everyone passes assuming you will use the orb we all get screwed out of that and so we all leave empty handed one more time without getting any closers to getting that 100 kill achievement.

That's what I mean by the moml rule causing more trouble in the community than not.  People abort parties over it.  Whenever I form a party for CS, I make it clear that I'm donating the orb, anyone doing the 2nd half gets to bid on the loot normally and that I consider the orb, "supplies" used for the party.  The only problem with that is if someone else runs ahead and inserts and orb first and demands moml privilege.  In that scenario, would anyone really think the orb-user deserved any special consideration?   I suppose I can make sure I announce the same before HM, Today someone threw in their orb first @ HM, but they also split before the 1st item was up for auction. 
Seems they really didn't care about the loot that much.

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I'm sure someone has already said this but its a common courtesy thing due to White Orbs being between 1-5g and the dungeon itself giving next to nothing for loot besides 1 pouch. Get over your greedy self, pass on the 1 pouch, take your FREE clear since it wasn't your white orb, and grow up if you think that its "unfair" to pass loot to whomever is spending their White Orb to also give 5 other players a free ride.

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RavTH   

if pet pod drops, the loot is not theirs.

because of the gold gap between those 2 items.

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1 hour ago, RavTH said:

if pet pod drops, the loot is not theirs.

because of the gold gap between those 2 items.

Still if they didn't use their orb, you wouldn't even get to see that pet pod. It's precisely cause of people like you that I no longer host moml runs. I'd rather solo for 2 minutes on my weaker alts, than have someone like you defile my charity.

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Noalaa   

This has been an agreed courtesy for a long time. I say agreed, because some people just don't care. It's been a way to say 'thanks for bringing an orb' for a long time. It's understandable that players make mistakes, but other player in the party will generally remind you first, "Hey 'X', it's 'Y's' loot, she used her orb.". In fact it's such an understanding with the community I go ahead and say. "I'm only interested in the treasure pouch and I already have the outfit, please bid on everything else." I don't understand why people have to be a-holes about it. It's so common to give the loot to the orb user that half the party will immediately drop after the fight with a simple, 'thanks for the orb.' I got so tired of individuals making scenes that now I just solo it or help friends. I can't rely on players being courteous, any more than I can rely on the fact that players seeking the same mob as me in a quest won't try to steal it from me, even though they can see I'm clearly closer and going for it, they still have to try to save 7 seconds by tagging it first. Such is the way a few unreasonable people make parts of the community toxic with their tantrums. By and large the players that run HM fall into the courteous lot, but there always seems to be that one off who just doesn't care. They want their frickin slice of cake, and they'll scream loudly if they don't get it.

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Astarae   

In a similar way, I want to prevent drama when possible, by always donating an orb to the party.  By donate, I mean "gifted" as in no compensation required or expected.  That way, if anyone *wants* to give me something out of the "goodness of their heart", they can, but it would never be something I'd want them to feel like they had to do to follow some  non-optional "politeness rule". 

 

Just as I feel uncomfortable if people think I'm providing the orb just to get the loot, if I'm on the other end, I can't really *choose* to let them have the loot because there is already a rule in place that says I have to let them have it.   Does that make any more sense?  

 

In a way, it's similar to when parents force one child to apologize to another.  Whether or not that child *wants* to apologize or not (or feels the need to do so),  more often than not the one forced to comply won't feel sorry at all, but resentful.

 

You can't force someone's heart to be "good" -- you can only force compliance which I can't see helps engender a kind or giving heart.  Only resentment  can result from forced rules that too often eventually result in someone exploding and harming many  people around them.  That's seriously, fatally toxic.  :^(

 

 

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Like many others said before:

One person uses an orb - the others get their Daily FOR FREE, I mean the fight takes like 5-10 Seconds, so this isn't an effort and they don't have to pay for it, so you can say it's a free Daily - the orb user gets the loot, because they cost (at my server) 4-7G or you have to farm Zaiwei Ruins (like I did for hours of my life), which is borring over 9000 and takes very long, so this small loot is just a little compensation for that - that's all. I mean nowadays the only useful thing in the loot is the treasure pouch, so you will make a loss even when you get it for 1 copper. Is it so hard for you to understand this? ;)

 

But hey someone gives you your Daily for free, so let's be greedy and also take this "loot" :') That's why I solo it ;)

Edited by RyVerseLy

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Plexi   

This has been a tradition since the introduction of Heaven's Mandate. The majority of the community strictly abids by this unwritten rule, especially veterans who knows the value of the required key item. And that is actually a good thing, it's one of these rare moments when you see the good side of the B&S community.
 

We understand that new players are not aware of such rule, that's why people care to notify you either in lobby or right before using the orb. It's not their fault if the player doesn't read or doesn't like the rule. That's why they go on the offensive when someone ignores the rule and start bidding. Even if there's no such rule, you've accepted their condition by joining their party .
 

Don't think too much about it. Don't compare it to real life situations. Don't try to analyse it by common logic. Like it or not, fair or not, it's just one of the rules for this specific game now. And since it's been set by the community itself, there's nothing that can be done about it by the developers.
 

You've made a positive choice by discussing the issue with everyone here, but you can tell from the replies in this topic that the majority are supporting it.
 

So your options are:

  1. Go with the flow and pass on loot for the orb user, no matter what the drops are, even if it's a pet.
  2. Solo, and keep all the profit for yourself.
  3. Go against the flow, start bidding, and bear with the results.

As for me, I'll never share my orb with anybody ever again. I'll either solo on main, or join others and pass on loot on alts.

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GrimmxD   

lol, i can't believe there is a thread for this. IF the guy used his orb the one who bought from the market he takes the loot. if you have a problem with that then don't join and use ur own orb.

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Kozuki   
18 hours ago, Astarae said:

In a similar way, I want to prevent drama when possible, by always donating an orb to the party.  By donate, I mean "gifted" as in no compensation required or expected.  That way, if anyone *wants* to give me something out of the "goodness of their heart", they can, but it would never be something I'd want them to feel like they had to do to follow some  non-optional "politeness rule". 

Thinking of hiring workers to work at a factory in real life. You pay them salary (orbs and a quest completion), so they provide you with efforts (killing bosses for you). Now, with the worker's efforts, you make profit (loot). Do you think you, the hirer, should share the profit with your workers, or you should take the profit for yourself, since you make an investment for a risk of loss (having people biding on your orbs, or the loot value is less than the orb). In real life, I see hirers take the profit for themselves, and never see hired workers complain unless the payment is too low for the risk/the efforts.

 

In the end, if you feel not wanting to following the unspoken rule of courtesy which a majority of players agree on, just solo the dungeon or make free-bid party or leave after finishing the boss, if that is your way of courtesy. If you join someone's group and bid on the loot without being an orb-provider, however, doing so is just selfishness and no excuse can save you from being frowned on and blacklisted by some people. If you join a 1,000-AP party and get kicked despite of having Aransu 6, maybe it is your karma for bidding on people's loot and getting remembered for your "deeds". Yeah, you can easily get into another party, but not without wasting some time.

 

"When in Rome, do as the Roman's do." - Most simple way to blend into the community and avoid trouble.

 

Edited by Kozuki

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Greetings,

 

We have cleaned this thread up a bit, as it started to turn into a political discussion, which is against our Code of Conduct. Please keep your posts on topic and refrain from making any more political references.

 

Thank you!

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