The worst part in the game in one picture.

[DirectorTseng]

I have gotten to the point i just sell all the mats and buy the stones from the market when i need them. 

 

What they need to do is take them out of the transmutation part and put them into the same crafting guild as the normal transformation stone. Make both a tradeable and account bound version. have it cost high mats for both versions but this way people aren't hitting the new wall called transformation stones. 

 

Yes we have it easier then in the other regions, but NA/EU also don't have the same 'heavy grind' mind set the asian severs generally do. Especially the koreans, they always seem to be heavy into the grind / craft heavy games. 

[SayhaSeer]

5 hours ago, DirectorTseng said:

I have gotten to the point i just sell all the mats and buy the stones from the market when i need them. 

 

What they need to do is take them out of the transmutation part and put them into the same crafting guild as the normal transformation stone. Make both a tradeable and account bound version. have it cost high mats for both versions but this way people aren't hitting the new wall called transformation stones. 

 

Yes we have it easier then in the other regions, but NA/EU also don't have the same 'heavy grind' mind set the asian severs generally do. Especially the koreans, they always seem to be heavy into the grind / craft heavy games. 

Eu/Na also had it, But then invasion of cry babies happened. The Game is too hard for EU/NA. Can't grind for gear, Can't CC in bosses, Can't do mechs. ect. Now they made it so easy to obtain everything, and it's still too hard LuL, I don't get it why people come to MMO where it's the main aspect of the game to grind and repeat same thing over and over to gear. and then smart wanna be people comes and starts comparimg shooters/mobas with MMO (Pamface). gearing is already so easy that upgrades means nothing now. Back then upgrading to stage 1 was prolly more expencive then you get from Stage 1 to 12 now. Having Legendary actually ment something, Now you can have Aransu 6 and it means nothing. And people still want it easier and easier without putting much effort in getting it. in fact Eu/Na "Upgrades has 100% Success too" Unlike in other region it has a chance to fail on upgrade, everything too easy here, Ruined all the fun out of it, And still wanting more...

[Zekken]

11 hours ago, SayhaSeer said:

It doesn't matter if they are sellable or not, If you collect them for free then losing shouldn't hurt either,

That’s not how it works....go take some Econ classes, come back, and revisit your statement.

[Milennin]

It's simply risk vs. reward. By clicking that transmute button, you agree to that. Yes, some people will have all the luck and succeed 80%+ of the times, while other may fail 20+ times in a row.

 

Advice: Never risk more than you're willing to lose.

 

If you can't take the potential losses from transmuting, then just save up the gold to buy them on the marketplace.

[JoannaRamira]

Think i lost my touch in making PTS. 

 

Would love to see increased success rate tho. that would help alot.  

[SayhaSeer]

1 hour ago, Zekken said:

That’s not how it works....go take some Econ classes, come back, and revisit your statement.

That is how it works for me, Why would i feel sad for losing materials that i gained for free? LuL?!?!? You need to fail 3-4 times if you buy TS Stones to lose the amount it takes to buy it. I'd rather risk it ;) With a decent chance that i will make more.  And you talking about classes Haha. Maybe because you skipped those classes and thats why your having problems in making them with your broken mindset? ;) 

[Zekken]

2 hours ago, SayhaSeer said:

That is how it works for me, Why would i feel sad for losing materials that i gained for free? LuL?!?!? You need to fail 3-4 times if you buy TS Stones to lose the amount it takes to buy it. I'd rather risk it ;) With a decent chance that i will make more.  And you talking about classes Haha. Maybe because you skipped those classes and thats why your having problems in making them with your broken mindset? ;) 

You didn’t gain them for free though.  It took time to get those materials and time is a finite resource.  By using those materials for crafting, you forego the opportunity to sell them for gold on the market.

 

”There’s no such thing as a free lunch.”

 

I apologize for the original comment as it was a bit harsh.  I should have worded it as I stated above.  And yes, I am guilty of skipping a few classes from time to time.

[Arohk]

14 hours ago, DarkEstelle said:

his is from big 8 dungeons today and unlike you said it isnt enough to do 1 try  which means you need to do this twice with an alt or waiting for next day dailys and before i forget you still need the moonstones which is a pain in the ass farming them if you dont do PvP so again stop defending this stupid RNG system its wrong and unrewarding end of story. i dont care that you cant see anything wrong but others do which means you must be blind or are just ignorant.

He probably has 1300 AP summ and farms Soulstone plains all day, as a BM with 1000AP it's a pain in the butt to kill the terrors there.

[Arohk]

2 hours ago, SayhaSeer said:

That is how it works for me, Why would i feel sad for losing materials that i gained for free? 

wouldn't it be funny if you go to work  do your job for 8 or 9 hours, and at the end of the day your Boss flips a coin and tells you,

"Ya sorry mate, head again , no pay today for you again."

But hey that's fine, you didn't lose anything right?

[DirectorTseng]

7 hours ago, SayhaSeer said:

Eu/Na also had it, But then invasion of cry babies happened. The Game is too hard for EU/NA. Can't grind for gear, Can't CC in bosses, Can't do mechs. ect. Now they made it so easy to obtain everything, and it's still too hard LuL, I don't get it why people come to MMO where it's the main aspect of the game to grind and repeat same thing over and over to gear. and then smart wanna be people comes and starts comparimg shooters/mobas with MMO (Pamface). gearing is already so easy that upgrades means nothing now. Back then upgrading to stage 1 was prolly more expencive then you get from Stage 1 to 12 now. Having Legendary actually ment something, Now you can have Aransu 6 and it means nothing. And people still want it easier and easier without putting much effort in getting it. in fact Eu/Na "Upgrades has 100% Success too" Unlike in other region it has a chance to fail on upgrade, everything too easy here, Ruined all the fun out of it, And still wanting more...

Or it is simply people do not have the same amount of free time to devote to a game like say 13 years ago when very grind heavy games like lineage 2 came out. (You want grind heavy.. early l2..crafting armor with a fail rate...that was hell) 

 

We have updates being pushed out at an extreme rate, which means the gear must raise to match. If we kept the old system most of the population would still be sitting at 550 AP and unable to do any of the new content. Things have to change as the game does. Which is why I suggested that though craftable they are done with high numbers of mats. So they still take work to make you just don't have the rng fail rate. 

 

 

[Arohk]

  lmao, coincidence?

[Mokate369]

0 out of 8 attempts from that time im not even bothering to craft them.

[Fufia]

10 hours ago, SayhaSeer said:

in fact Eu/Na "Upgrades has 100% Success too" Unlike in other region it has a chance to fail on upgrade, everything too easy here, Ruined all the fun out of it, And still wanting more...

And let's forget that the other regions have an item that gives you 100% success.

And let's forget that the other regions have the game for a few more years

And let's forget that the other regions they make a lot more money per day that us

 

Yea it is wonderful make comparisons and mention only what pleases you for your argument!

[Lyn Thunderfox]

Mixed feelings about this.

 

I can understand the frustration behind RNG, but now at the same time, I never failed transmuting to PTS once.

:shrug:

I also understand about heavily lacking of Moonstones since there's literally 0 incentive to play Whaleground, I mean Battleground. People are there to farm Moonstones, not to get farmed lul.

 

Rest is fine I'd say.

[Prototypemind]

I love the people who say, "Just buy them off the market." They're a finite resource. There are only so many people willing to pay cash and post them up for sale. If no one tries transmuting there will be an even lower supply. It's not reliable as is, and would only get worse if everyone sells off mats and looks to the MP.

 

It's hilarious as well when people accept a pure RNG system as being good. There's a reason NA is down to two servers now and all but end game areas are pretty much empty. The white knights will ride this garbage horse right off a cliff and swear it's happy days. 

[Cor]

You people should have played the game when those stones were 600g and stage 1 legy needed 3 of them.. No cheap stones from daily specials and the chance to transmute was even lower yet people didn't complain so much as nowadays. Tomorrow baleful path doesn't need a single prem stone anymore.. what are you guys expecting? All endgame gear on a silverplate? Stop using rng as an excuse to get everything cheaper you don't need any rng to get prem stones...

[Khaen]

@OP Just buy PTS from the market. There are plenty of people who make them, and as demonstrated in this thread, there always will be. Greed and undercutting will keep PTS at a steady price range. 

 

Materials don't appear out of thin air, they're not free, time and effort are spent to obtain them. Personally, I value my time more than I value the prestige of hardcore farming. I prefer spending my time and effort on rewarding objectives with a definite payload, rather than in vain hopes for a chance at obtaining absolutely nothing. However, to those who deem their time as having zero value and freely spent, then perhaps this turbulence elicited by faith in dubious RNG will promote a form of gratification. 

 

In the end, crafting PTS is gambling, there is no guarantee that for every x amount of failures there will be one success. I gamble when I find it entertaining, and when I have resources that I won't miss when they are lost.

[ARC-1276]

Let me put it this way: Imagine a system where if you upgrade a weapon and fail, you lose an upgrade level on that same weapon and the one easily purchased item used to upgrade it.

 

We don't lose an upgrade level, but we lose the materials that are required to even attempt the upgrade in the first place, and that's due to them all being used in Premium Transformation Stones (which are around 300+ gold now). There honestly isn't even much more that needs to be said about this. You're gambling hours of your farming to get a chance to upgrade your weapon. And it is gambling because you are putting in ingame currency (or real life if you're a whale) for a chance at either something or nothing. Then there's the fact that this is required to even progress in the first place.

 

Now let's look at the elephant in the room: the P2W aspect of it all. They put this item in F10 and in event troves, but rarely and in small quantities. Then there's the fact that you have to spend an inordinate amount of money on these, and you need a lot of them (20 to get from Stage 9 Baleful/Seraph to Raven 9 in the cheapest possible route). Given their current price. that will be well over 6,000 gold spent for just one resource that you can't even farm for.

 

That's 6,000 gold for an item that requires resources in itself in order to make in the first place. So let's assume that you have perfect RNG luck on your side and you can craft all 20 of these things, what are the costs?

 

You will need:

160 Moonstones

600 Soulstones

600 Sacred Orbs

160 Elysian Orbs

80 Transformation Stones

300 gold

 

Want to craft the Transformation Stones?

 

That'll be:

2 orders of the 35 Transformation Stones

1 order of the 15 Transformation Stones

 

Which costs you:

35 Elysian Orbs

140 Sacred Orbs

35 Moonstones

140 Soulstones

150 gold

 

So basically, if you want to craft every Premium Transformation Stone you will need while taking the cheapest route possible, you will need:

195 Moonstones (market price in total: 815 gold and 10 silver)

740 Soulstones (market price in total: 229 gold and 40 silver)

740 Sacred Orbs (market price in total: 999 gold)

195 Elysian Orbs (1,388 gold and 40 silver)

450 gold

 

If you buy all of those you will have spent: 3,881 gold and 90 silver....for just one upgrade material. You still have all the other raw materials, the actual gold, the weapons, and of course the Legendary Elements which will either cost you 4,900 gold or 2,450 gold, 2,450 Soulstone Crystals, and 2,450 Sacred Crystals.

 

 

Anyway, have fun defending the idea of putting one of the most costly upgrade item in the game having an RNG behind it. Meanwhile , everyone else who still lives in reality and understands the fact that even if this thing has a 50/50 split it'll cost us big time considering you lose all the raw materials upon each failure. 

 

As for all of you who think it's fair to have the possibility of failing to acquire this oh so expensive item and losing the materials to attempt it in the first place: Go to Hell. Some of us have lives here that we want to live, and we don't want to spend our job money on what has became a second job. It's bad enough that we have fundamentally broken classes in this game, but to also have what basically boils down to a paywall for every upgrade past Baleful Stage 9, that couldn't scream disastrous game design louder.

[Astarae]

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 1:49 PM, Arohk said:

It's virtually gambling, new gambling laws on videogames since the huge lootbox debate will cause B&S trouble with stuff like this.

In the US the "self-regulating"[sic] ESRB refuses to call this type of activity "gambling", which would push many of these games into an NC17 type rating which would keep them out of most large retail stores.  I'm betting they are being heavily "supported" (bribed) by industry members to not harm their cash cow.   Anyway, before B&S gets in trouble, there's going to have to be many more changes as there are plenty of more egregious violators from larger companies (EA games) that would have to be willing to change or be sold only to adults -- something most game companies don't want to be hit with.  EA is avoiding the controversy by lowering prices on its play-to-win packages so people won't complain as much.  *plegh* 

[ARC-1276]

1 minute ago, Astarae said:

In the US the "self-regulating"[sic] ESRB refuses to call this type of activity "gambling", which would push many of these games into an NC17 type rating which would keep them out of most large retail stores.  I'm betting they are being heavily "supported" (bribed) by industry members to not harm their cash cow.   Anyway, before B&S gets in trouble, there's going to have to be many more changes as there are plenty of more egregious violators from larger companies (EA games) that would have to be willing to change or be sold only to adults -- something most game companies don't want to be hit with.  EA is avoiding the controversy by lowering prices on its play-to-win packages so people won't complain as much.  *plegh* 

What we have with Premium Transformation Stones is a form of gambling, one where instead of putting in your money, you're putting in your time, a currency that you never get more of.

 

If you grind for the materials, and attempt to transmute the PTS, there's a chance for your valuable time to have been wasted on something you need to progress in the game. If you put in money into the game to gather the resources required, you're now gambling your money which you put hours in to get. There is no winning in this scenario. This is an obnoxious system that encourages the player to spend money for an easy way out instead of trying to make a cleaner system where you can just EARN it WITHOUT RNG. 

[Astarae]

@ARC-1276  I tend to agree, and almost said this before in a discussion about how bad whales were where the alternative was mindless farming.  To me, the whales are using what options are available to them to get around a poor game design that requires "farming". 

 

Farming is NOT part of a game or story line.  It's a way to slow down players from making progress to make up for a lack of content or some "in-character" way of making progress.  But farming is a total immersion-breaker and is just bad game design.  That so many people accept it is far worse than those who avoid such mindless behavior by avoiding it w/money.  

 

From what I see people are mad at whales because they are avoiding a bad design in the game that requires farming.  In a well designed game, you wouldn't need farming or whaling, but if the game requires farming -- don't get mad at the whales who pay to get around it, get mad at the mindless game dynamic that is farming and that its so often used as a substitute for good design. 

 

On top of it being bad design, it forces the developers to spend some percentage of dollars to protect their game from those who try to automate such mindless drudgery w/bots.

[Prototypemind]

It's the literal definition of P2W. As there's no way to guarantee creation of new stones through transmutation, the ONLY way to guarantee that there are any in game is buying them via the Cash Shop. An item that can only be obtained with 100% certainty via cash couldn't be a more perfect illustration of how cash separates players in this game. There's no defending facts. If players switched to only transmutation they would never be assured of making stones, with cash it's a given. White knight all you like, facts are facts.

 

It would be bad enough if it just took no lifing to gain the promise of the items, but even burning yourself out doesn't guarantee a PTS.

[SayhaSeer]

15 hours ago, Zekken said:

You didn’t gain them for free though.  It took time to get those materials and time is a finite resource.  By using those materials for crafting, you forego the opportunity to sell them for gold on the market.

I did gained them for "Free". By doing my daily routations, By "Playing the game" - If all people had same mindset as you, No one would be crafting nor transmuting. 

 

15 hours ago, Arohk said:

He probably has 1300 AP summ and farms Soulstone plains all day, as a BM with 1000AP it's a pain in the butt to kill the terrors there.

First of all I play Warlock, Secondly No i don't farm SSP, If you farm SSP then no wonder why you face problems in gearing, I can prolly solo akbul by now, but so what? SSP is dead, You don't gain anything worth farming there anymore.

 

15 hours ago, Arohk said:

wouldn't it be funny if you go to work  do your job for 8 or 9 hours, and at the end of the day your Boss flips a coin and tells you,

"Ya sorry mate, head again , no pay today for you again."

But hey that's fine, you didn't lose anything right?

Comparing game with work, Try harder. Better Question why do you play MMO if you have problems with how it works? Quit already. 

 

15 hours ago, DirectorTseng said:

Or it is simply people do not have the same amount of free time to devote to a game like say 13 years ago when very grind heavy games like lineage 2 came out. (You want grind heavy.. early l2..crafting armor with a fail rate...that was hell) 

 

We have updates being pushed out at an extreme rate, which means the gear must raise to match. If we kept the old system most of the population would still be sitting at 550 AP and unable to do any of the new content. Things have to change as the game does. Which is why I suggested that though craftable they are done with high numbers of mats. So they still take work to make you just don't have the rng fail rate. 

 

 

You know, Older version of L2 still have higher population then EU/NA combined. and most of people that plays are married, with children and have jobs, But you don't see them complaining. I don't mind NCsoft helping newbies, to catch up, But Premium stone is not newbie item, Look you don't even need prem stones to get to stage 12 anymore, That's what bothers me the most, When ncsoft helps newbies gear up, which i don't mind. but they are never happy and always find another excuse to QQQQ about while all rest people worked their asses off to achive, Now they get handed on the plate and still complain. 

12 hours ago, Fufia said:

And let's forget that the other regions have an item that gives you 100% success.

And let's forget that the other regions have the game for a few more years

And let's forget that the other regions they make a lot more money per day that us

 

Yea it is wonderful make comparisons and mention only what pleases you for your argument!

Lets forget that other regions are more advanced into the game then EU/NA 

Lets forget that other regions has a chance to fail on upgrades.  that's why they have it easier to obtain materials/gold because it can fail and it can fail often...

 

Lets forget that even if they make more gold then us, That doesn't mean for them is cheaper. 

First play other regions then start giving facts. Because unlike you, I actually played for 2 years before EU/NA was released. 

5 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

Let me put it this way: Imagine a system where if you upgrade a weapon and fail, you lose an upgrade level on that same weapon and the one easily purchased item used to upgrade it.

 

We don't lose an upgrade level, but we lose the materials that are required to even attempt the upgrade in the first place, and that's due to them all being used in Premium Transformation Stones (which are around 300+ gold now). There honestly isn't even much more that needs to be said about this. You're gambling hours of your farming to get a chance to upgrade your weapon. And it is gambling because you are putting in ingame currency (or real life if you're a whale) for a chance at either something or nothing. Then there's the fact that this is required to even progress in the first place.

 

Now let's look at the elephant in the room: the P2W aspect of it all. They put this item in F10 and in event troves, but rarely and in small quantities. Then there's the fact that you have to spend an inordinate amount of money on these, and you need a lot of them (20 to get from Stage 9 Baleful/Seraph to Raven 9 in the cheapest possible route). Given their current price. that will be well over 6,000 gold spent for just one resource that you can't even farm for.

 

That's 6,000 gold for an item that requires resources in itself in order to make in the first place. So let's assume that you have perfect RNG luck on your side and you can craft all 20 of these things, what are the costs?

 

You will need:

160 Moonstones

600 Soulstones

600 Sacred Orbs

160 Elysian Orbs

80 Transformation Stones

300 gold

 

Want to craft the Transformation Stones?

 

That'll be:

2 orders of the 35 Transformation Stones

1 order of the 15 Transformation Stones

 

Which costs you:

35 Elysian Orbs

140 Sacred Orbs

35 Moonstones

140 Soulstones

150 gold

 

So basically, if you want to craft every Premium Transformation Stone you will need while taking the cheapest route possible, you will need:

195 Moonstones (market price in total: 815 gold and 10 silver)

740 Soulstones (market price in total: 229 gold and 40 silver)

740 Sacred Orbs (market price in total: 999 gold)

195 Elysian Orbs (1,388 gold and 40 silver)

450 gold

 

If you buy all of those you will have spent: 3,881 gold and 90 silver....for just one upgrade material. You still have all the other raw materials, the actual gold, the weapons, and of course the Legendary Elements which will either cost you 4,900 gold or 2,450 gold, 2,450 Soulstone Crystals, and 2,450 Sacred Crystals.

 

 

Anyway, have fun defending the idea of putting one of the most costly upgrade item in the game having an RNG behind it. Meanwhile , everyone else who still lives in reality and understands the fact that even if this thing has a 50/50 split it'll cost us big time considering you lose all the raw materials upon each failure. 

 

As for all of you who think it's fair to have the possibility of failing to acquire this oh so expensive item and losing the materials to attempt it in the first place: Go to Hell. Some of us have lives here that we want to live, and we don't want to spend our job money on what has became a second job. It's bad enough that we have fundamentally broken classes in this game, but to also have what basically boils down to a paywall for every upgrade past Baleful Stage 9, that couldn't scream disastrous game design louder.

(Palmface) - Literally no comment

After reading your post, ❤❤❤ it. too much internet for me today

[Arohk]

SSP is not dead, there are always people there killing the bosses at any time of the day.

 it's the fastest way to get soulbound stones and moonstonse, please enlighten us where else you can farm moonstones, k thx.

 

If you say weekly quest, i didnt get a single moonstone for the last three weeks.

[RanMaster]

*cough* 6v6 but who does that.

As for the MMO's, and other regions, it has already been stated before, that a lot of people don't really have the time to grind like what Director Tseng said.
And grinding for gear isn't exactly enjoyable either, that's why this game is slowly dying... =/ Heavy gear walls, mechanics are not taught in game, and RNG can be the biggest waste of time investment, thus a lot of people find other game to go to.