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Enemy Silence

@ Developers: Please balance summoner

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There should be no reason why the easiest class should be as good as it is. Currently the lowest dps is KFM (which needs a damage buff but i'll make a separate topic for that) yet KFM is the hardest class to play.  Summoner is essentially this game's "mage" class yet they have decent utility and crazy damage. There is literally no other game where a class like summoner could get away with having absolutely no weaknesses. In PVE they're highly requested for their stealth and they can also heal. They can send their pet to help revive a fallen party member or even themselves. 

 

In arena PVP, there is no such thing as a terrible summoner. Their tier of terrible would be, what is considered decent, for much harder to play classes. Every summoner, remotely competent at the game, is an immediate threat regardless of the player skill. One comment you frequently hear other players say is: "OMG a summoner" or "i hate summoners"or "braindead/class carry scummoner". If you don't believe me, watch region chat in the pvp lobby during active hours.

 

This class doesn't have a relevant weakness and that is a balance problem. Their rotation has no real ending and their "road to victory" is about as straight forward as destroyers. Plus they're mid tier in PVE DPS. Their cat does WAY TOO MUCH in the means of helping them win and killing the cat is more like an all or nothing strategy as it can darn near make itself invincible for a short period of time. The only argument summoners have in their defense (which is a terrible argument) is, "there are no summoners winning tournaments or something about the top PVP spot or other blah blah blah about the 1% of pvpers.

 

To balance this class they need a PVE damage nerf and their cat needs a huge health nerf. Since their cat is so important, it should be important to the summoner to keep the fragile thing alive. Killing the cat is a huge threat to the summoner so if they at least had to turn their brain on long enough to worry about the cat, then the class would be balanced. As far as damage is concerned, there is no way in hell the easiest class and  "mage" should out DPS harder classes of equal or better gear. That's just a slap in the face to any and every rule of balance. The damage nerf wouldn't even affect arena pvp so this is an ACTUAL BALANCING not a "crymoarnerf"

Edited by Enemy Silence

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Grimoir   
23 minutes ago, Enemy Silence said:

There should be no reason why the easiest class should be as good as it is. Currently the lowest dps is KFM (which needs a damage buff but i'll make a separate topic for that) yet KFM is the hardest class to play.  Summoner is essentially this game's "mage" class yet they have decent utility and crazy damage. There is literally no other game where a class like summoner could get away with having absolutely no weaknesses. In PVE they're highly requested for their stealth and they can also heal. They can send their pet to help revive a fallen party member or even themselves. 

 

In arena PVP, there is no such thing as a terrible summoner. Their tier of terrible would be, what is considered decent, for much harder to play classes. Every summoner, remotely competent at the game, is an immediate threat regardless of the player skill. One comment you frequently hear other players say is: "OMG a summoner" or "i hate summoners"or "braindead/class carry scummoner". If you don't believe me, watch region chat in the pvp lobby during active hours.

 

This class doesn't have a relevant weakness and that is a balance problem. Their rotation has no real ending and their "road to victory" is about as straight forward as destroyers. Plus they're mid tier in PVE DPS. Their cat does WAY TOO MUCH in the means of helping them win and killing the cat is more like an all or nothing strategy as it can darn near make itself invincible for a short period of time. The only argument summoners have in their defense (which is a terrible argument) is, "there are no summoners winning tournaments or something about the top PVP spot or other blah blah blah about the 1% of pvpers.

 

To balance this class they need a PVE damage nerf and their cat needs a huge health nerf. Since their cat is so important, it should be important to the summoner to keep the fragile thing alive. Killing the cat is a huge threat to the summoner so if they at least had to turn their brain on long enough to worry about the cat, then the class would be balanced. As far as damage is concerned, there is no way in hell the easiest class and  "mage" should out DPS harder classes of equal or better gear. That's just a slap in the face to any and every rule of balance. The damage nerf wouldn't even affect arena pvp so this is an ACTUAL BALANCING not a "crymoarnerf"

I would suggest we nerf your ability to type.

 

Actually looking at damage and comparing to other classes summoner is the weakest and actually would need a damage boost.

Not to mention to win against a good summoner in arena you have to be smart and not brain dead.

 

you can ask all the top arena players, they will confirm to you that summoner is one of their easiest matches to win.

 

Seriously i am so tired of all these "nerf summoner" topics, if you cant bring it whats needed to beat the class you should stop playing the game especially considering arena pvp is pure mindgames. You know what the best option for you would be? ill give you a quote from a loading screen thats in the new south park game:

"if the game gets to difficult for you, try getting better at the game"

 

especially since i can see from your post....if you really go after the cat and try to kill it in arena no wonder you loose to any even medicore summoner.

Edited by Grimoir

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9 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

I would suggest we nerf your ability to type.

 

Actually looking at damage and comparing to other classes summoner is the weakest and actually would need a damage boost.

Not to mention to win against a good summoner in arena you have to be smart and not brain dead.

 

you can ask all the top arena players, they will confirm to you that summoner is one of their easiest matches to win.

 

Seriously i am so tired of all these "nerf summoner" topics, if you cant bring it whats needed to beat the class you should stop playing the game especially considering arena pvp is pure mindgames. You know what the best option for you would be? ill give you a quote from a loading screen thats in the new south park game:

"if the game gets to difficult for you, try getting better at the game"

 

especially since i can see from your post....if you really go after the cat and try to kill it in arena no wonder you loose to any even medicore summoner.

This,

 

Sum went through two 'blanace patches so please don't.

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@grimoir: Yea i didn't come here to argue or even debate your opinion. What i said is fact and has nothing to do with my level of skill (which you're assuming is bad). Your rebuttal is baseless and full of assumptions. My topic is backed by evidence, concrete and anecdotal. Also, don't be the grammar police, just don't be "that guy".

Edited by Enemy Silence

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@klausflouride:

don't worry, they probably won't balance the class any further. My topic is a topic that NEEDS TO BE SAID. NCSOFT has proven they lack integrity so this topic will fall into the pile while they continue to make money off of people attracted to easy classes with outrageous benefits. If i was capcom working on street fighter, why not just give ryu a fire ball you can't block. People (that play ryu) will defend it and suggest he's fine while the MAJORITY are looked at as whiny and poor players that need to "git gud". I know how this works.

Edited by Enemy Silence

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Grimoir   
6 minutes ago, Enemy Silence said:

@grimoir: Yea i didn't come here to argue or even debate your opinion. What i said is fact and has nothing to do with my level of skill (which you're assuming is bad). Your rebuttal is baseless and full of assumptions. My topic is backed by evidence, concrete and anecdotal. Also, don't be the grammar police, just don't be "that guy".

Actually your post says a lot about your level of skill....and you are even contradicting yourself, you complain about summoners in arena yet "the nerf should only be in PVE"...but anyway let me enlighten your world a bit:

 

Here are some rules you should follow when fighting summoners:

1. If you go after the cat, you lose. Never go for the cat

2. If the cat crouches, dont hit it. Why? Because every hit you do to it you heal it, so...use your brain

3. Stealth is only usefull for a summoner if you blindly hit into it, if you dont they are sitting ducks

4. A summoner will ALWAYS  bait your escapes, if you are dumb enough to fall into the traps and mind games, you lose

5. If you are a kfm...the cat should literally do nothing to you if you play it right, there is no excuses if you are simply bad

6. Avoid the cat pin bait and you will live.

7. Dont fight s summoner in the petal storm because that prevents your evasion and block

 

Those are the simpliest basics. IF you would actually take time to know the class you fight you wouldnt have a problem.

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7 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

Actually your post says a lot about your level of skill....and you are even contradicting yourself, you complain about summoners in arena yet "the nerf should only be in PVE"...but anyway let me enlighten your world a bit:

 

Here are some rules you should follow when fighting summoners:

1. If you go after the cat, you lose. Never go for the cat

2. If the cat crouches, dont hit it. Why? Because every hit you do to it you heal it, so...use your brain

3. Stealth is only usefull for a summoner if you blindly hit into it, if you dont they are sitting ducks

4. A summoner will ALWAYS  bait your escapes, if you are dumb enough to fall into the traps and mind games, you lose

5. If you are a kfm...the cat should literally do nothing to you if you play it right, there is no excuses if you are simply bad

6. Avoid the cat pin bait and you will live.

7. Dont fight s summoner in the petal storm because that prevents your evasion and block

 

Those are the simpliest basics. IF you would actually take time to know the class you fight you wouldnt have a problem.

Again you're making baseless assumptions on my skill and it's DERAILING the focus of the topic. If you didn't have "selective reading" you would have noticed i didn't contradict myself and only suggested two balancing fixes to summoner. The "TL;DR" or "Too selective; didn't understand" version would be: Nerf their overall damage output and nerf the health of the pet. The pet's health would, in fact, affect how summoner is played in all instances of pvp and pve. The damage nerf would only hinder them a bit in open world or 6v6 pvp. Nothing actually changes about the way the class is played(other then making the summoner more mindful of their pet), so stop acting like i'm asking for something ridiculous or drastic. 

Edited by Enemy Silence

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@Grimoir

Thanks for the rules/tips... Been wondering why people went after the summoner directly and noticed they don't have much in the way of avoiding them except to call the cat back to them which they still get focused on. At least now I know, and yes I'm new to the game but like both summoner and warlock... lol

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@grimoir:

I'd also like to add that your "tips" doesn't correlate with my balance suggestions. What that means is, i would still LOSE to summoner even if these suggestions got implemented tomorrow. I just wanted to throw that out there so you take some time to READ before replying to me with easy to slam opinions.

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Valkit   
1 hour ago, Enemy Silence said:

@grimoir:

I'd also like to add that your "tips" doesn't correlate with my balance suggestions. What that means is, i would still LOSE to summoner even if these suggestions got implemented tomorrow. I just wanted to throw that out there so you take some time to READ before replying to me with easy to slam opinions.

just out of curiosity, have you actually played summoner?

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Of course! i also played every other class except BM and SF. Summoners isn't the only class the NEEDS balancing. They're just the focus of this topic. 

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Valkit   

if you would have said summoner was op many patches ago i would agree but they've been nerfed several times. you also seem to have forgotten summoner has a direct counter, destroyer. without the cat health there's literally no point in having a cat because it's basically a mini tank for the summoner.

 

edit; grammar

Edited by Valkit

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Grimoir   
23 minutes ago, Enemy Silence said:

Again you're making baseless assumptions on my skill and it's DERAILING the focus of the topic. If you didn't have "selective reading" you would have noticed i didn't contradict myself and only suggested two balancing fixes to summoner. The "TL;DR" or "Too selective; didn't understand" version would be: Nerf their overall damage output and nerf the health of the pet. The pet's health would, in fact, affect how summoner is played in all instances of pvp and pve. The damage nerf would only hinder them a bit in open world or 6v6 pvp. Nothing actually changes about the way the class is played(other then making the summoner more mindful of their pet), so stop acting like i'm asking for something ridiculous or drastic. 

You say you played summon   er...well i can clearly see you didnt, if you did you would know that in any open world pvp and 6v6 the cat literally lives only a few seconds before it gets dps'ed down to the floor, despite its HP.

you suggestions actually make no sense, thats what i am pointing out to you. Summoner is already mindfull of their pet simply because the pet is 90% of summoners utility, if they werent mindful of it they wouldnt be able to do what they do. as much as i value opinions of other people your topic makes no sense and just proves you have no idea what you are actually talking about. Despite having a cat and being a as you call it "braindead class" being a good summoner actually takes skill, and summoner is the weakest class in both arena and PVE. the only place where summoner is decent at is 6v6 but that again is very debatable.

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FrozenB   
24 minutes ago, Enemy Silence said:

Again you're making baseless assumptions on my skill and it's DERAILING the focus of the topic. If you didn't have "selective reading" you would have noticed i didn't contradict myself and only suggested two balancing fixes to summoner. The "TL;DR" or "Too selective; didn't understand" version would be: Nerf their overall damage output and nerf the health of the pet. The pet's health would, in fact, affect how summoner is played in all instances of pvp and pve. The damage nerf would only hinder them a bit in open world or 6v6 pvp. Nothing actually changes about the way the class is played(other then making the summoner more mindful of their pet), so stop acting like i'm asking for something ridiculous or drastic. 

Um...the only thing I don't agree here is nerfing the cat's hp. In openWorld or 6v6, the cats literally die in 1-2 hit if you have good gears.

 

To be fair, I don't think summoner needs to be nerfed in their damage. However, their cat should be nerfed as following:

- Summoners should not be able to command their cat when they are in air. (Yes, this is ridiculous. The only 1 class that can counter enemy by himself/herself when he/she got into air combo in the air.)

- Disable the cat when the players are holding horns in beluga battleground. (This is another ridiculous thing for summoner. The only class that can defend themselves while holding the horn (without using the skill from the horn.))

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Windy   

I found the damage of summoner ridiculously low comparing with the damage of a WL,for example.I found the i-frames terribly clumsy and non nesponsive comparing to a KFM.i found the summoner 's cc's abilities a joke comparing to the FM's chill or a Destroyer 's ground play. I found the KFM comet strike waaay to OP comparing to any summoner ability.Overall the summoner is the weakest class as cc,i-frames ,mobility ,evasion or even damage . Don't make me compare the summoner's skills with a BM ,BD or SIN . Think about this : summoner been nerfed over nerfed and you still have a problem with it. I suggest you to try improve your game play.Each class have own weakness and own strong parts .Happens that your frustration does not let you enjoy the game.Don't just yell nerf-this ''nerf summoner '' posts by now aren't constructive at all. Learn to enjoy the game without to hit in a class that already has been more then nerfed. Yes,summoner need to be balanced as damage (a much lower gear Gunner makes same dps as a high geared Sum for example,so actually we neeed a dmg buff!) ,as speed cast wise ,and would be good to have more mobility.By the way,nerf WL's .They are way too strong and i hate their air combo + buff. This is just not fair ,imho.

Edited by Windy

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If you go in PvP and focus on trying to kill the cat, you are not doing well. I am a summoner, and when I see someone is going after my cat in PvP, I know it's an easy win right away because: cat have all of the CC utilities (80% of the CC if I spec my 2 for Daze then I have 1 CC and the cat has the other 5 CC -- double stun, double KD, and 1 daze). If you said you have played Summoner and yet to realize that, I would question how you play your summoner. Never go after the cat.

 

Like others have said, don't hit the summoner when they use their skill 4 -- Seed Sproud -- since that will allow they to stay stealth and throw nettle at you without breaking the stealth and that will DoT you.

 

In term of damage, even though I have the same gears as some of my clan mate, I still can't do as much as they do.

I personally think Summoner is OK as is. Summoner is easy to beat if you know and can read their moves (and isn't that something everyone have to do when they PvP?). In PvE, I love Summoners because of their utility for healing party members, party save, and revive members.

 

Oh and one more thing, cat is essentials to Summoner because, if cat is gone, summoner is literally useless because summoner lose 50% of their skills: Tab, X, C, V, Q, E. Have you realize that when you play your summoner?

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Souba   

Why would you want to nerf another class in PVE?

 

You have nothing to loose by having summoners be good in PVE...

 

By the way have you EVER even played a mage class in any MMO? because they always have the best DPS. THEY ARE THE DPS. "Harder to play" does not mean it should have better DPS.

 

Ugh. I dont even main summoner and I know this topic is silly.

 

 

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SalemK   

I have to disagree with what someone said about summoner being the weakest class in pve, if we're going off max gear, summoner is not at the bottom of the list. Even as far as their utility goes that would not put them as the weakest. However, as far as pvp, summoner is one of the easiest classes for me to beat when playing on my kfm so maybe there is something you're doing wrong.

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Kozuki   

If anything, Summoner needs buff/quality of life improvement:

-Better cat's response time when using skills related to it. Sometimes, it simply does not listen if you try to do so when DPSing, so you have to suspend DPS a little to make sure that the server receives your command to the cat.

-Shorter skill animation and less animation lock. Everytime cat uses C or V, they stand still for split second like an idiot.

-The ability to execute cat command REGARDLESS line-of-sight. In 6v6, an easy way to disable most of Summoner's CC/resist skills are running round and round the cauldrons/statues. Without proper line-of-sight, Summoner have trouble calling back the cat or CC the opponent.

-Cat should become awake when the summoner's respawn in 6v6, or win a Tower of Infinite match against Force Master class. Cat stays asleep in these scenarios, which cause it hard for the Summoner. In 6v6, at least you can call back the cat to wake it up. In ToI, however, you can only wait for it to awake before next match. 

-Cat is extremely squishy in 6v6 content now. Some whales can even kill it when it curls with 90% damage reduction. When it doesn't curl, it simply vanishes.

-Weak DPS until you get VT badge. Unlike other classes where Mystic Badges boost their DPS, Summoner's Mystic Badges are for support only. They even have two useless and outdated Raven-feather badges that the developer never bothers to fix.

-Too many useless skills. The DPS variants of Skill C, V and Tab are too weak and impractical cuz they use the cat's stat instead of the master's. They serve as filler skills at best so that Summoner won't accidentally press wrong CC, which is something that a skilled Summoner should never commit that.

-House Cat in Earth build and Alley Cat in Wind build is pretty much the same. There is no difference in stat between them. Not sure why they even bother to make these passives in the first place.

-Remove that stupid hammer spin of cat's auto attack. It is always harder to command a cat when it spins that weak hammer round and round.

Edited by Kozuki

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Since a lot of you are ASSUMING i lose to summoners or am bad at pvp, i'm going to ASSUME none of you understood or comprehended my topic. ONCE AGAIN, the cat's health is way too high and they do way too much damage to be so versatile. Both things need adjusting but i'd like to see more responses from people who DON'T MAIN summoner. I'll also assume people who disagree are summoners whether they'll admit it or not. See how assuming works? 

Edited by Enemy Silence

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KzE   
9 hours ago, Enemy Silence said:

they're mid tier in PVE DPS

vs

 

10 hours ago, Enemy Silence said:

need a PVE damage nerf

Not even top dps and need pve nerf? lol

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Grimoir   
9 hours ago, FrozenB said:

Um...the only thing I don't agree here is nerfing the cat's hp. In openWorld or 6v6, the cats literally die in 1-2 hit if you have good gears.

 

To be fair, I don't think summoner needs to be nerfed in their damage. However, their cat should be nerfed as following:

- Summoners should not be able to command their cat when they are in air. (Yes, this is ridiculous. The only 1 class that can counter enemy by himself/herself when he/she got into air combo in the air.)

- Disable the cat when the players are holding horns in beluga battleground. (This is another ridiculous thing for summoner. The only class that can defend themselves while holding the horn (without using the skill from the horn.))

Actually....summoner cannot command the cat when holding a horn in beluga, all a summoner can use from can utilities is the stund which has a long cooldown and can be used only once.

 

1 hour ago, Enemy Silence said:

Since a lot of you are ASSUMING i lose to summoners or am bad at pvp, i'm going to ASSUME none of you understood or comprehended my topic. ONCE AGAIN, the cat's health is way too high and they do way too much damage to be so versatile. Both things need adjusting but i'd like to see more responses from people who DON'T MAIN summoner. I'll also assume people who disagree are summoners whether they'll admit it or not. See how assuming works? 

Prove that you are not bad in PVP first. Are you gold / plat/ diamond ranked in arena? The cats health is not too high, the problem is when someone braindead goes after the cat he looses, the cat is so buggy that you can easily avoid almost all of its CC's.

I play  a summoner, assasin, gunner and blade master so i know what i am talking about. You simply need to learn how to play against a class and not make crybaby topics in forums.

 

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11 hours ago, Enemy Silence said:

@grimoir:

I'd also like to add that your "tips" doesn't correlate with my balance suggestions. What that means is, i would still LOSE to summoner even if these suggestions got implemented tomorrow. I just wanted to throw that out there so you take some time to READ before replying to me with easy to slam opinions.

I'd like to point out that you're claiming people are assuming you're bad at PvP and losing to summoner all the time but you say fairly clearly in this post that you lose to summoners.

 

As for "easiest class" you're 100% wrong.  I've played all 10 classes and that award goes to gunslinger.  Summoner isn't even the second easiest to play as that award goes to fire FM.  Summoner is one of the most complicated of the ranged classes to play and be good at in end game content.

 

And before you claim that I'm just another summoner main defending it I actually main Gunslinger.  Before that I mained Warlock since the class was released.

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Zii   

Sorry for slight off-topic, but is there a trick to regenerate Focus during Soul Burn stage using Awakening Rumblebees? 

My Summoner run out of "fuel" in two seconds even with Doom and Briar Patch  active :(

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Fin   

    So...I'll try and give some constructive input on this since I've pretty much no-lifed summoner since beta- so sue me, I like cats.   Summoner's bad rep stems primarily from it having a pretty low skill floor: that is to say, you can pretty much sleep through bronze, low silver and most of mid silver.  But as others can testify to, once you start hitting around high silver and gold, that whole "wtf 2 enemies I dunno what to do gaaaaah" advantage pretty much goes out the window, and you need to be super on top of your game to progress in pvp at that point. You arent gonna cheese wins against a KFM or destro that just counterplays any "hold RMB" type play.  So what you end up with is a distorted skill curve, where you start baseline at maybe a 4 out of 10, vs other classes starting at a 1 or 2, but to truly hang with the big boys of pvp you need to be multiclassed into trainer and beastmaster to quell the ADD five year old that is your cat.   PVE wise I think it's nicely balanced, with middling damage and decent utility.  Just dont tell your cat if the boss gives punishment stacks, it'll seek them out like catnip.

TL DR is the class is fine- it's probably one of the more middle of the road classes in terms of not overly excelling or failing in any cat-egory, but doing decently in most.  

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