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Enemy Silence

@ Developers: Please balance summoner

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Grimoir   
34 minutes ago, Zii said:

Sorry for slight off-topic, but is there a trick to regenerate Focus during Soul Burn stage using Awakening Rumblebees? 

My Summoner run out of "fuel" in two seconds even with Doom and Briar Patch  active :(

Depends on your rotation. Doom n Bloom, briar patch resotre focus, also if you use the mystic badge it restores 60% focus for x seconds upon a successfull hit of vine whip if i remember good.

 

the rest you can hope for weapon procs i guess.

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Maryelle   
16 hours ago, Enemy Silence said:

There should be no reason why the easiest class should be as good as it is. Currently the lowest dps is KFM (which needs a damage buff but i'll make a separate topic for that) yet KFM is the hardest class to play.  Summoner is essentially this game's "mage" class yet they have decent utility and crazy damage. There is literally no other game where a class like summoner could get away with having absolutely no weaknesses. In PVE they're highly requested for their stealth and they can also heal. They can send their pet to help revive a fallen party member or even themselves. 

I always get a kick out of people who buy into the LMB/RMB Summoner easy class baloney. Good summoners work hard to keep people like you alive in PVE. They provide you with health, stealth, tank breaks, chi recovery and revivals, mob control and more. That means that at any one time a good summoner is monitoring 5 other people, a cat, the boss, the mobs, and their focus and cooldowns while trying to also DPS, while most other classes have the luxury of caring only about themselves.

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In arena PVP, there is no such thing as a terrible summoner. Their tier of terrible would be, what is considered decent, for much harder to play classes. Every summoner, remotely competent at the game, is an immediate threat regardless of the player skill. One comment you frequently hear other players say is: "OMG a summoner" or "i hate summoners"or "braindead/class carry scummoner". If you don't believe me, watch region chat in the pvp lobby during active hours.

No,  most people complain about the AFK summoners or summoner bots, particularly in 3v3. Scummoner is a phrase that stuck since before the first DPS nerf - just because people still use it doesn't actually mean it holds any relevance regarding their DPS anymore. It's trendy to sh** on summoners.

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This class doesn't have a relevant weakness and that is a balance problem. Their rotation has no real ending and their "road to victory" is about as straight forward as destroyers. Plus they're mid tier in PVE DPS. Their cat does WAY TOO MUCH in the means of helping them win and killing the cat is more like an all or nothing strategy as it can darn near make itself invincible for a short period of time. The only argument summoners have in their defense (which is a terrible argument) is, "there are no summoners winning tournaments or something about the top PVP spot or other blah blah blah about the 1% of pvpers.

Focus drain is a huge weakness. Depending on build, casting time is a huge weakness. Summoners have a large number of weaknesses.

 

The real PVE issue is gear. A fully geared and badged, high level summoner will out DPS any non-geared counterpart in PVE. That's how gearing works. It has nothing to do with the summoner's base DPS and everything to do with the gear.  Gunners are currently out DPSing the average geared summoner - it is not uncommon to see a HM 9 gunner pulling agro from a HM 12 summoner.

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To balance this class they need a PVE damage nerf and their cat needs a huge health nerf. Since their cat is so important, it should be important to the summoner to keep the fragile thing alive. Killing the cat is a huge threat to the summoner so if they at least had to turn their brain on long enough to worry about the cat, then the class would be balanced. As far as damage is concerned, there is no way in hell the easiest class and  "mage" should out DPS harder classes of equal or better gear. That's just a slap in the face to any and every rule of balance. The damage nerf wouldn't even affect arena pvp so this is an ACTUAL BALANCING not a "crymoarnerf"

Could you be any more insulting, and more importantly, could you be any more non-sensical? Firstly, any summoner worth their salt has their brain ON. I have already covered all the stuff we do to support YOU and our party members in PVE. Secondly, you went into such great detail about how summoners are so much trouble in PVP that I underlined all of your complaints about this specific issue so you could look at your complaints and compare them to the fact that you only requested a PVE nerf. Like, what?! If the issue isn't summoners kicking your ass in PVP, then why did I have to read through your magnus opus about how unfair summoners are in PVP? Make up your mind!

 

Summoners have been nerfed twice. A third nerf is not necessary and you have not proven that it is required. You claim in the comments you have actual evidence and anecdotal experience to support your claims, but you haven't posted it. You simply sound like all the other people who've faced a summoner in PVP and lost - bitter and out to blame the class instead of the operator error - yours. Then you complain about all the skills a summoner has that BENEFIT you. If the summoner was nerfed  (again) in PVE, you lose too, buddy.

Edited by Maryelle
spelling

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14 hours ago, Grimoir said:

You say you played summon   er...well i can clearly see you didnt, if you did you would know that in any open world pvp and 6v6 the cat literally lives only a few seconds before it gets dps'ed down to the floor, despite its HP.

you suggestions actually make no sense, thats what i am pointing out to you. Summoner is already mindfull of their pet simply because the pet is 90% of summoners utility, if they werent mindful of it they wouldnt be able to do what they do. as much as i value opinions of other people your topic makes no sense and just proves you have no idea what you are actually talking about. Despite having a cat and being a as you call it "braindead class" being a good summoner actually takes skill, and summoner is the weakest class in both arena and PVE. the only place where summoner is decent at is 6v6 but that again is very debatable.

so, i read your tips about fighting the summoner...but first you say dont go after the cat or you lose, yet in this reply you say that the cat is 90% of summoners utility. So why not try to kill the cat and this way the summoner is left with 10% of his skills...which should make it easier for you to kill the summoner?

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Have you seen a maxed out gear PVE summoner DPS? Compared to other classes, they need buff not nerf.  I'm not even talking about base values buffs (because it would affect arena), but better modifiers on soulshields DOT damage (if you want to do it without fkin up 6vs6), or better weapon modifiers and modifiers on RMB (if you don't care about fkin up 6vs6).

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Grimoir   
12 minutes ago, nonistaicho said:

so, i read your tips about fighting the summoner...but first you say dont go after the cat or you lose, yet in this reply you say that the cat is 90% of summoners utility. So why not try to kill the cat and this way the summoner is left with 10% of his skills...which should make it easier for you to kill the summoner?

Basically this:

 

When a summoner sees you are attacking the cat, he will let the cat curl (crouch). when it is curled like that any hit you do to the cat will heal it instead of dealing damage also the cat takes 90% less damage in that phase. Summoner can also heal it by using Z or F (F only works if you get hit and cat is near you, can be iframed tho)

Additionally summoner can recall the cat any time they want so you would actually be wasting your time and skills going after the cat.

 

The cats kd can be avoided by just mobility as the cat need to stop to use it. The daze with the hammer can get you and summoner usually follows up with airborne. you should save at least 1 cc break for the pin.

Edited by Grimoir

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SM has pet support. It's same as 2v1. Therefore, SM has to be nerf. The other classes need to be nerf in 6v6 or pvp too like Destroyer, Blade dancer and the warlock dps.

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Maryelle   
5 minutes ago, WudangMaster said:

SM has pet support. It's same as 2v1. Therefore, SM has to be nerf.

Summoner also has the weaknesses that come from being ranged and not melee. They are nowhere near as durable as other classes. I admit I haven't created a summoner since release, but I remember summoners had less HP and defence than melee counterparts. I don't know if that holds true now, but we came out the gates massively disadvantaged HP wise to account for the +1.

5 minutes ago, WudangMaster said:

The other classes need to be nerf in 6v6 or pvp too like Destroyer, Blade dancer and the warlock dps.

A case can be made to nerf every class. Assassin stealth is insane. Destros that can stun just by spinning despite being nowhere near you. Warlock with their thrall and its buffs and their chains and their leech. Summoner with the cat. KFM and Blade Master with their aerials. Blade Dancer and the nausea inducing spin. Gunner and their insanely stupid DPS. FM with their damn ice. Soul Fighter... well I can't think of anything for SF, but one annoyed me once in PVP, so nerf them too.

 

If you're getting beaten in PVP, learn from it and get better. Git gud is a huge meme but it has its place - why are you being beaten? Discounting lag, what are you doing or not doing that is making you weak in PVP? How can you improve?  Do you know how the other class skills work so you can anticipate them and counter? If you don't, LEARN. Check your build, practice your combos. You think the top tier people in PVP got there by luck?

 

It gets tiring seeing people complain about this class and that because they got their ass handed to them in PVP. Or people hating on summoners and warlocks and then begging to have them join a party because, funnily enough, they are useful to have. Every class has strengths and every class has weaknesses. I would rather see people talking about how they can best use their class in parties to benefit everyone rather than how the game can change to cater specifically for them.

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Bakunawa   

I have almost a year of experience on Summoner, and this entire post is just hilarious.. Lmao.. Summoner DPS is utter trash in PvE at the moment if you play Earth, Wind is half decent, but if you think Summoner is broken now, just wait until Aransu + full VT gear is a common thing, you'll *cricketing* *cricket* bricks when you see their DPS then. Best of luck to you, LMAO.

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Dad   

Actually you know what, ima just sit and watch the tears flow out on the sums players here. Or as I would call them, the tryhard needs A.I help players.

Edited by Dad

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Ooneka   

Greetings!
Please remember to debate the post, not its author. This thread will be kept open as long as the discussion stays civil. Thank you :)

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FrozenB   
10 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Actually....summoner cannot command the cat when holding a horn in beluga, all a summoner can use from can utilities is the stund which has a long cooldown and can be used only once.

 

Actually, I was not clear on my point. I meant that the cat should just follow the summoner when the summoner is holding horn. As soon as summoner starts to hold a horn, the cat will be out of combat and just follow the summoner. Right now, when the cat is attacking someone and then when the summoner is holding horn, the cat will just keep on continue to attack the same person (or use the skill you mention on someone else). So, that person will be stuck in combat mode until either the cat is recalled back to summoner or is killed by that person. By that time, the summoner already runs very far away.

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thieve   

It's simple: If the Summoners are OP ppl should prefer to use Summoner at World Championship all time.Also check on game rank all class at pvp.There is no any summoner at top ranks.Always Destroyers etc...Before talk about to Summoner u should talk about Warlock class with crazy dmg and OP skills pve and pvp.U cannot even blink your eyes pvpin to warlock at oppenent side.Also KFM is one of the most powerful char in game.He can tank-dps anything if u want.And NOT hard so to play.

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22 hours ago, Enemy Silence said:

There should be no reason why the easiest class should be as good as it is. Currently the lowest dps is KFM (which needs a damage buff but i'll make a separate topic for that) yet KFM is the hardest class to play.  Summoner is essentially this game's "mage" class yet they have decent utility and crazy damage. There is literally no other game where a class like summoner could get away with having absolutely no weaknesses. In PVE they're highly requested for their stealth and they can also heal. They can send their pet to help revive a fallen party member or even themselves. 

 

In arena PVP, there is no such thing as a terrible summoner. Their tier of terrible would be, what is considered decent, for much harder to play classes. Every summoner, remotely competent at the game, is an immediate threat regardless of the player skill. One comment you frequently hear other players say is: "OMG a summoner" or "i hate summoners"or "braindead/class carry scummoner". If you don't believe me, watch region chat in the pvp lobby during active hours.

 

This class doesn't have a relevant weakness and that is a balance problem. Their rotation has no real ending and their "road to victory" is about as straight forward as destroyers. Plus they're mid tier in PVE DPS. Their cat does WAY TOO MUCH in the means of helping them win and killing the cat is more like an all or nothing strategy as it can darn near make itself invincible for a short period of time. The only argument summoners have in their defense (which is a terrible argument) is, "there are no summoners winning tournaments or something about the top PVP spot or other blah blah blah about the 1% of pvpers.

 

To balance this class they need a PVE damage nerf and their cat needs a huge health nerf. Since their cat is so important, it should be important to the summoner to keep the fragile thing alive. Killing the cat is a huge threat to the summoner so if they at least had to turn their brain on long enough to worry about the cat, then the class would be balanced. As far as damage is concerned, there is no way in hell the easiest class and  "mage" should out DPS harder classes of equal or better gear. That's just a slap in the face to any and every rule of balance. The damage nerf wouldn't even affect arena pvp so this is an ACTUAL BALANCING not a "crymoarnerf"

I'm going to quote myself because people seem intent on arguing how bad i am at pvp instead of directly telling me what's wrong here. 

 

1. i stated that summoner is mid tier in PVE DPS while being the easiest class in the game, While classes like KFM are much harder and are low tier. that's a balancing issue.

 

2. I stated that there is no such thing as a terrible summoner in PVP as their tier of terrible is actually what most would be decent at tougher classes. that's a balancing issue.

 

3. I suggested their cat's health be nerfed to help balance the playstyle of summoner whom most of them don't contain their cat and @grimoir willingly admitted will allow you to beat on the cat because the cat can absorb and recover health. He/She also said in their "tips" you go after the cat, you lose. REALLY? seems like that's a balancing issue.

 

4. I stated the cat dying is a serious threat to the summoner but in the handbook of how to fight a summoner (because i lose 100% to all summoners hur dur) is to NOT go after their main source of power??? seems like a balancing issue to me. Please continue to defend "ryu's unblockable fireball" like balancing.

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Laura099   

There's a few issues with this
Summoners have lost what is called "house cat", a cat specced for defense.
In other words, lower its health and it becomes the most useless shit in the game.
They're honestly not as powerful as you'd like to think, a basic combo WILL kill them. The issue is macro, which is against Terms of Service.
If anything, its that that we need to focus on, not the class.

Class wise, every class has an unfair advantage.
Fms have that 30% heal, wls one shot aerial, kfms infinite counter/resist, sfs resist/aerial, bds grab/spin, destros spin, bms pull, gunner 30k base damage attack.

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TheFat   
22 hours ago, Enemy Silence said:

There should be no reason why the easiest class should be as good as it is. Currently the lowest dps is KFM (which needs a damage buff but i'll make a separate topic for that) yet KFM is the hardest class to play.  Summoner is essentially this game's "mage" class yet they have decent utility and crazy damage. There is literally no other game where a class like summoner could get away with having absolutely no weaknesses. In PVE they're highly requested for their stealth and they can also heal. They can send their pet to help revive a fallen party member or even themselves. 

 

In arena PVP, there is no such thing as a terrible summoner. Their tier of terrible would be, what is considered decent, for much harder to play classes. Every summoner, remotely competent at the game, is an immediate threat regardless of the player skill. One comment you frequently hear other players say is: "OMG a summoner" or "i hate summoners"or "braindead/class carry scummoner". If you don't believe me, watch region chat in the pvp lobby during active hours.

 

This class doesn't have a relevant weakness and that is a balance problem. Their rotation has no real ending and their "road to victory" is about as straight forward as destroyers. Plus they're mid tier in PVE DPS. Their cat does WAY TOO MUCH in the means of helping them win and killing the cat is more like an all or nothing strategy as it can darn near make itself invincible for a short period of time. The only argument summoners have in their defense (which is a terrible argument) is, "there are no summoners winning tournaments or something about the top PVP spot or other blah blah blah about the 1% of pvpers.

 

To balance this class they need a PVE damage nerf and their cat needs a huge health nerf. Since their cat is so important, it should be important to the summoner to keep the fragile thing alive. Killing the cat is a huge threat to the summoner so if they at least had to turn their brain on long enough to worry about the cat, then the class would be balanced. As far as damage is concerned, there is no way in hell the easiest class and  "mage" should out DPS harder classes of equal or better gear. That's just a slap in the face to any and every rule of balance. The damage nerf wouldn't even affect arena pvp so this is an ACTUAL BALANCING not a "crymoarnerf"

LOL are you even close to end game? summoner easy? probably you only know to mash that lmb+rmb... however if you think it’s all about mashing buttons then your wrong.... I would not bother explaining something to someone that would not understand about it at all... go research more and come back...

Edited by TheFat

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@Enemy Silence The crux of your argument is that the easier the class, the weaker it should be and, conversely, the harder the stronger. From a player's perspective, that is a completely logical expectation to have. However, from a game company's perspective, that is a recipe for less players (less than what we already have anyway) and therefore less money. The reason they give medium or even high damage to an incredibly easy class is because they want to encourage casual/average players to pick up and continue playing the game, despite their mediocre skills and/or ping. So why not buff KFM damage? As we're all aware, our desire to play this game is largely based on how relevant we feel our main class to be compared to whatever the meta is; if all the ranged classes got knocked down a tier on their DPS compared to KFM, at first they may not care. Then they start rerolling or quitting once they see "KFM/Sin DPS only" in raid/party requirements.

Edited by Displeased

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I'd bet a True Cosmic soul that Team Bloodlust did originally intend KFM and/or Sin to be the absolute strongest class in the game at some point, then they had to rebalance after the higher-ups had their say.

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14 minutes ago, TheFat said:

LOL are you even close to end game? summoner easy? probably you only know to mash that lmb+rmb... however if you think it’s all about mashing buttons then your wrong.... I would not bother explaining something to someone that would not understand about it at all... go research more and come back...

I have a near-end game summoner and I still think they're the absolute easiest class to play right now. I wouldn't expect that to change even if I got both legendary mystic badges and played both elements. The fact of the matter is their rotations are very easy and forgiving; summoners suffer the least DPS loss when they stop attacking compared to other classes. One need only observe Flame Asura ranged tanking to understand this.

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9 minutes ago, Displeased said:

@Enemy Silence The crux of your argument is that the easier the class, the weaker it should be and, conversely, the harder the stronger. From a player's perspective, that is a completely logical expectation to have. However, from a game company's perspective, that is a recipe for less players (less than what we already have anyway) and therefore less money. The reason they give medium or even high damage to an incredibly easy class is because they want to encourage casual/average players to pick up and continue playing the game, despite their mediocre skills and/or ping. So why not buff KFM damage? As we're all aware, our desire to play this game is largely based on how relevant we feel our main class to be compared to whatever the meta is; if all the ranged classes got knocked down a tier on their DPS compared to KFM, at first they may not care. Then they start rerolling or quitting once they see "KFM/Sin DPS only" in raid/party requirements.

Very insightful! Thanks for not attacking my skill as a player. I figured from the developers point of view this is a great way to keep the masses interested as picking a class is daunting for a beginner. Seeing the easiest class double as one of the best is great for the longevity of the casual player. Still, what i suggested wouldn't hurt casuals. It would just force the competitive to actually care about their cat taking pvp damage. I still don't see why making a summoner care about their cat translates into all the rubbish responses i'm getting about my skill.

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4 minutes ago, Enemy Silence said:

Very insightful! Thanks for not attacking my skill as a player. I figured from the developers point of view this is a great way to keep the masses interested as picking a class is daunting for a beginner. Seeing the easiest class double as one of the best is great for the longevity of the casual player. Still, what i suggested wouldn't hurt casuals. It would just force the competitive to actually care about their cat taking pvp damage. I still don't see why making a summoner care about their cat translates into all the rubbish responses i'm getting about my skill.

That's fine, I was just speaking plainly in general terms. I myself have little concern for PvP balancing, though I will agree that giving more micromanagement options to the cat would at least make the class infinitely more interesting to play.

Edited by Displeased

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Laura099   
28 minutes ago, Displeased said:

I'd bet a True Cosmic soul that Team Bloodlust did originally intend KFM and/or Sin to be the absolute strongest class in the game at some point, then they had to rebalance after the higher-ups had their say.

KFM was once the strongest, when wind build was the main build. However, people picked up somehow that flame was better, likely because its difficulty level was less, and it all went downhill from there, from what i recall. The first class I ever saw break 100k dps within seconds WAS in fact kfm.

As for sin. Well, they've made up for that.

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