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Enemy Silence

This is the most unbalanced online game i've ever played.

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I know the title is truculent but let me explain my point on balance and why i feel this game disrespects every balance rule. The general rule of balance is give and take, good and evil, so on so forth. The reason i believe this game ignores the rule of balance is because of it's lack of give and take. Example: ranged classes being highest DPS.  The benefit of being a mobile and ranged attacker in the rule of game balance usually comes at the cost of DPS. You don't have to directly engage your enemy, you don't have to position or wait for cast times. You're safe from boss swipes and close AOE damage and you get 100% uptime. A great comparison is bard from FF14. The greatest bard with the best rotation will never beat a similarly geared melee class using the best rotation. In this game WL and FM are top dps when destroyers, KFM and the rest of the melee classes should be there. 

 

The difficulty doesn't reward the effort. Another case of ignoring general game balance. The hardest class to play "KFM" is mid tier at best with DPS and also must tank. Thus having to deal with "in your face" mechanics and the overall difficulty of closing distance to begin or maintain DPS on moving, jumping, attacking targets. Their optimal rotation requires ping related preciseness and finger dexterity. This amount of effort isn't rewarded in comparison to a warlock or force master doing a similar perfect rotation much easier, who don't have to worry about dodging or maintaining uptime while actively engaging in close quarter combat. Why play KFM? Balance should be in favor of your effort. It isn't.

 

Skill takes a back seat to gear. I shouldn't have to explain the conflict of open world and 6v6 pvp and why you'll never see a mainstream pvp related title that allows a veteran to win without displaying veteran related experience. A good comparison is street fighter or tekken. Both combatants enter a match with equal opportunity to compete. This game displays a show of absolute dominion when one player's gear won't even allow another player to achieve damage. These two should never meet in a proper matchmaking system with that level of disparity. Being able to one shot wouldn't fly in any tournament you endorse so why allow it in game?  I'll get a lot of disagreements with my point here but it's no lie.

 

Classes have too much utility and not enough weaknesses. Let's use assassin for example. They take away my physical ability to see, spend most of their time attacking at angles, have great damage, mobility, counters, and teleports. so what do they lack for all of this advantage? IN the general rule of balance, a seemingly over powered class has an achilles heel. Summoner, force master, blade dancer, warlock and assassin are at conflict with this general rule. Each of these classes have game breaking utility that makes it seem as if they're cheating. Heals? A.I. companions with high health? great damage and mobility? range? double escapes? Stealth? Come back mechanics? Power ups? Freezes that take away approach abilities? The term glass cannon comes to mind but these classes have outstanding defensive options like a flashbang that turns your screen white or a invincible ice shield that gives you back your health. I'm not being biased, bitter, or disingenuous. They have few counters unless played against themselves.

 

There is more but the overall or TL:DR portion is that range shouldn't beat melee except at a distance and powerful utility comes at a cost. Hard to play should equal rewarded effort. Highest DPS is reserved for those getting the most dirty. There's more but i'll stop here for now to see the overall opinion from users here.

Edited by Enemy Silence

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arkvard   

i understand what is your point but there is no such thing as ranged tank in ff14. assassin is actually really hard to play, and like i said so many times they won't nerf fm. fm is their favourite child, also things like ranged tank like i mentioned before exists here. but yeah, melee classes actually needed more utility or damage like what you said because of bosses' circular aoe, etc making their time to dps become less than ranged.

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Malign   

Your info is a bit outdated and after reading that I'm pretty sure you haven't played end game.

 

First of all classes should only be compared at the end game since this is the most relevant content. Some classes get tools designed for end game earlier than others, but most stuff evens out once you get to the end game.

 

Also some classes give up raw dps for other skills and utility. Let's take KFM for example. They have a high skill cap sure, but they are the BEST tanks in the game and have a party buff that increases everyones damage. What do FMs have? we have a party save and a projectile block. There's no comparison in that an FM would not be favored for a party over the KFM unless the party already has the BB or the party needs the FM save more.

 

The closer you get to end game the easier playing your class often becomes. Let's use Sin for example this time. Lightning build sin pretty much becomes a 2 button class and Dark sin becomes a 1 button class. They still have to manage their poison stacks, but that's not very different from FMs managing their burn.

 

Now for the melee Vs. ranged debate. WL will always be brought for their SB, but no other ranged class has a buff or skill that can't be replaced outside of this. Dest has the FM sheath and Sin has the projectile block and party stealth, SFs have the Summoners heals (and no they do not use range stance). Having a summoner with root is good for a few bosses (Since WLs don't spec into their root anymore I think), but otherwise their isn't much else. Melees on the other hand have Restrain, BB, threat, party iframes that you can move and attack during, Lower CD iframes in general, Blocks, increased move speed after using certain skills, much stronger aerials that are easier to extend and use, and spin parries. Melees get plenty of utility to go along and even help them in close combat.

 

Currently FMs are not normally top dps, unless they are super geared with VT items. Up until the VT patch the only thing they really had going for em is consistency. Sums have a lot of utility, but they need to manage their cat since it's where a lot of that utility is located (the cat doesn't survive on it's own you need to actually know how to manage it). WL well... ( I think this class is over tuned, but I don't really play mine so I can't say much about it).

 

It's true range classes have a lot of advantages over melee, but to say they're as superior as you make em out to be is a bit of a stretch imo.

 

(Also for FM pvp there are ways to get around the freeze. If there weren't FMs wouldn't be one of the worst PvP classes in NA)

 

 

 

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Relanah   

Ehhh... It could be worse, it could be a Blizzard game.

 

Now there's a bunch of games to play and whine about Melee vs Ranged. So many mechanics that punish melee (Boss movement, cleaves, PBAoE's, mechanics you need to run over to etc), but nothing for Melee to utilize to mitigate all the movement they need to do. On top of this, they're not even top DPS on theoretical 0 mechanic fights (Despite being more complicated to play, to the point where there's little margin for error for even computer programmes to do perfect rotations)

 

Then comes along 2-3 button mashing ranged that can attack while moving, has all the defensive options they want and can even just bypass a bunch of boss mechanics as a whole... Oh, while having better mobility, range etc.

 

On to BnS though:

 

As a whole, melee tend to have the highly valued BB (KFM + Sin) and also nifty Restrain (Des + BD, though FM does technically have it too). They also seem to have more CC in general.

 

The major outliers to these generalisations are WL (Who uniquely has SB... But the class seems rigged af anyway) and SF (Who kind of... Lacks in utility, just having healing). It's possible that GS will also be a sought after ranged, thanks to Alpha Call for double BB+SB.

 

With regards to gear disparity in PvP, it's inevitable. Unlike a game such as Street Fighter, this is an MMO. The core of which is typically grinding for gear to improve your character. If all PvP was homogenized to create a level playing field, it would remove that aspect of progress, even if it would create a more skill based environment for larger scale battles. This is just the nature of MMO's.

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Malign   
20 minutes ago, Relanah said:

FM does technically have it too

FMs do not have restrain. Our grab cannot be used on bosses either. It's only used for PvP or in a few cases I spec it for near death timers reduce.

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Every class is 2-3 button mashing class in BnS, not just ranged, when it comes to dps. Is KFM with 2RF really that special? The only real difference is in kfms/bms' obligation to tank, i.e. knowing the boss rotation and using the iframes to get the perk of +100ap (with very high uptime) due to resist procs. If you think it's not rewarding, maybe you shouldn't play it.

 

Sure, ranged people have the choice of switching off their brain, but that doesn't mean all ranged people are slobs. Some can do good job tanking some content when there is no bm or kfm, with limited iframes on disposal; and some will go full melee even when there is tank just to get those +100ap procs, which means they bothered to learn the boss rotation as well.

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XO   

LMAO, while I agree there is some unbalance that is frustrating...saying this is the most unbalanced game you've ever played makes me wonder how many games you've actually played.

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Inugami   

Your information is very outdated, not to mention the fact that there are plenty of other games where ranged beats mele any day. Besides the fact, in this game, the raged classes need to know how to avoid boss mechanics. Ranged does not = safe in B&S

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Suna   

Bard dps is lower because of their dps utility, not because they are ranged dps, They buff crit constantly, direct hit with battle voice and all damage with foe + mp and tp recovery. Bard is easily most valuable dps class in the game because all the utility it bring. Ninja is melee class and have almost same dps than bard because it have utilty. Samurai have easily highest personal dps but they have 0 utility for the party. If you look fflogs most speed kills have been done without samurai and ninja is literally in every speed kill party. Party damage buffs > personal dps. Utility often surpass personal dps. 

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The underlining point in this thread is this: Would you rather play an easier class and get the highest DPS? Or play the the hardest class and have one of the lowest DPS? Would you rather play a ranged class and have an easier time in PVP or play a melee class and have a hard time in PVP? That is the disparity between classes like warlock versus kung fu master. I assume some of you agree this is good development and my views are "outdated"? The world we live in. 

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Milennin   

Meh, I'll never understand the appeal of competitive gameplay in MMOs, because it's a genre that's not known for having well-rounded PvP or balance in general, even if you're not dealing with game modes in which those who've spent the most money or grinded the most EXP/Gold are at an advantage over lesser players.

 

You want PvP? Play Street Fighter or something.

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1 hour ago, Milennin said:

Meh, I'll never understand the appeal of competitive gameplay in MMOs, because it's a genre that's not known for having well-rounded PvP or balance in general, even if you're not dealing with game modes in which those who've spent the most money or grinded the most EXP/Gold are at an advantage over lesser players.

 

You want PvP? Play Street Fighter or something.

That doesn't excuse the imbalance in PVE. The question still stands, why play KFM over WL? There is almost no aspect of KFM that is more valuable than WL outside the fact KFM can tank. What the developers are telling people is, "you're the under appreciated punching bag if you pick KFM". "Inside and outside of PVE".  My issue is where is the incentive? I understand that no game is totally balanced and balance will take a back seat to fun. My problem is making classes obsolete. There is a reason why you see more summoners and warlocks then you do kfms. People, especially western audience, always gravitate to the easiest and most rewarding classes. The most played class should light a signal to developers that maybe they should buff other classes to keep diversity alive. Who wants a game where everyone is the same 4 or 5 classes?

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Corage   

Ok, u are not satisfied, soooo what can u offer to devs? Or u can complain only? What's the point to complain without offers how to improve the game?

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Well, some classes are definetely easier to play in PvP, and while a lot of players will have easier time getting these class to high Silver to Gold rank, it's where everything becomes a bit blurry. Not to say that some classes aren't better, but most classes do fine in PvP.

Take a look at FM and KFM : They are harder than average to play. I mean, I can't do anything right on my KFM in PvP (due to both lack of HM techniques with this class and 190ms average latency), but those KFM who hit Gold rank are hard to beat: They'll evade and block most of your attacks. Same goes for FM: They are hard to master, but once it's done, they pack a lot of damage and can keep you stunlocked if you ever use your TAB (or if you can't use your F at the proper moment due to lag or lack or reflexes ;)  ).

Still, I agree that PvE is poorly balanced for two reasons:

- They balance the classes according to the highest gear cap: Some classes draw the short staw. Take Destroyer for example: We're on the lowest side of DPS when we do not have our Skybreak Spire Soul Shields, but once we do, we're pretty much on par with everyone else. Thing is that sometimes, they balance base skill damage instead of balancing gear bonuses, which is a mistake. Last patch got Destroyer's base damage roughly decreased by 10% (stealth nerf, by the way) to make up for our new Awakened skills. In the end, a raid geared Destroyer got his/her DPS increased, while a non raid geared one got his/her DPS lowered because none of his/her gear supports these new skills. It wouldn't matter much if it only took a few weeks of casual play to get gear, but as it can take months of hardcore playing, it makes some classes less desirable than others.

- Some classes are essential in group or raid, while other aren't: In a 12 man alliance, there need to be two Warlocks, two Gunslingers and two Blue Buffs to get the most of it. I haven't done VT, but from what I can read, you kinda need two Soul Fighters too, so in the end, you've got 5 classes who get 8 of the 12 spots. For BT, as Soul Fighters aren't mandatory, you can pretty much fill the rest of the group with the 6 remaining classes, but as you can see, some classes clearly aren't essential because they do not bring anything unique in raid content. Soulburn is too strong of a buff to pass on, especially when combined with a Blue Buff, and that Gunslinger's reset will be able to make burst phases even stronger, so why would you bring another class that brings no unique buff or higher than average DPS? And even there, higher DPS wouldn't even cover what a Soulburn brings to the party. This is poor balance. No buff should be mandatory, and no particular class should be required for a specific mechanic. There will always be some classes who are better at doing a given job (i.e. BM and KFM at tanking; Summoner and Soul Fighter at healing), but you shouldn't require a SF to increase your tank's Health Pool just to survive a high damaging mechanic.

Edited by Pyrocyborg

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2 hours ago, Enemy Silence said:

Would you rather play a ranged class and have an easier time in PVP or play a melee class and have a hard time in PVP? 

I hope you're aware that this doesn't stand, If you think you can PVE your way through PVP as ranged you're wrong. Or you obviously never hit a destro/bd parry stun, got gap closed behind your back stunned and locked by SF counter all at the same time every 6 sec, ran out of focus hitting into BM block, get fked by sin's decoy daze when he already has a dozen of CC available, or filled up KFM counters. More defensive abilities make up for the range, for the gap that needs to be closed. You can't go all in, fail and be on defense (unless you're bd). Bait out everything they have by starting defensively.

And definitely you can't just PVE it as ranged, if you don't what you're doing whether you're sum, wl or fm, you'll waste all your cc into immune spins, counters and iframes. 

And as melee in PVP it's your main goal to make them do so. Dance around the cat as kfm until sum waste all CC, or go close and cc lock the cat along with sum, use your big skills to kill the thrall fast, let FM hit into your counters. Then just gap close them with pierce defense skill.

Wait for sum to use counter, FM is completely open if he tries to dps more than use block, move around WL until you get behind his block, which is much easier if thrall is dead (lose pull, lose escape (3) + thrall Q stun which is like another escape).

 

 



 

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1 hour ago, Corage said:

Ok, u are not satisfied, soooo what can u offer to devs? Or u can complain only? What's the point to complain without offers how to improve the game?

My solution is to buff the weaker classes, simple. I'm not an advocate of taking away what makes a class fun. I would just like more incentive to pick what you like, not what's the best. I have two friends who started KFM not knowing they chose a weak class. They didn't do much research and thought the class would involve a bunch of grabs, air combo's and take downs. They have no clue about ani-canceling or optimal rotations as they're casuals looking for a new game to enjoy. No one wants to spend time AND MONEY, on a class that's bad. (in comparison)

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Relanah   
8 minutes ago, Enemy Silence said:

My solution is to buff the weaker classes, simple. I'm not an advocate of taking away what makes a class fun. I would just like more incentive to pick what you like, not what's the best. I have two friends who started KFM not knowing they chose a weak class. They didn't do much research and thought the class would involve a bunch of grabs, air combo's and take downs. They have no clue about ani-canceling or optimal rotations as they're casuals looking for a new game to enjoy. No one wants to spend time AND MONEY, on a class that's bad. (in comparison)

I believe Corage would be referring to your lack of input on HOW to balance classes.

 

Just saying "Yeah, buff the weaker classes" without anything as to what buffs to give to what parts of what classes. Doesn't really help.

 

I mean, you state you feel that melee classes damage isn't high enough to justify the extra dodging of attacks they need to do... So what do you propose? Do you want their iframes buffed? Damage increase? What abilities do you feel aren't strong enough or should have additional iframes? Would you buff badges? If so, which ones? How would all these changes affect PvP? How would they affect different gear levels (For example, many melee rotations become much simpler at higher levels of gear, even to the extent of stuff like Shadow Sin's just holding RMB for max DPS)?

 

Would you look to give out Soulburn/Alpha Call to melee classes that you feel are weak? Would you look to create new melee unique buffs to compete with these? If so, do you have examples?

 

Lots of potential information to give. Yet all you've given so far is "Buff the weaker classes", to which you've referenced KFM and vaguely mentioned melee classes as a whole (Yet you also complain about Assassins and BD's not having any weaknesses...)

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