Nemises

Why are the battlegrounds restricted to people with good gear? [suggestion]

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Nemises   

First of all, I like BGs. BnS isn't known for the best group pvp, but it is still some fun, at least if the parties are pretty even.

 

This should be a discussion about the question above and eventually a feedback for the developers, about players thoughts about the current BG system. The suggestions doesn't refer to the clan BG!  Everybody can cry about this topic, but trying to bring up solutions/suggestions is much better, so I ask you for constructive criticism.

 

People complain about low geared players in the battleground (especially during the event), so why don't introduce an equip staggered system?

The most common argument, however, is that there are not enough players filling the queues. Well i think there would be, as the gaming experience for the majority of the players, in the battleground, would be much better than nowadays (less onehits, less insults for low geared ppl, less 1800/>800 BGs) 

The condition for this system to work is to lock the players current gear equiped by the time of registration for a BG. Depending on their equiped gear players queue up for different levels of BGs. To be more precise: players can combine certain equip to be in three different queues:

 

Low stage requirements/limit:

- heroic soulshields, battleground soulshield (for galaxy tokens), MSP soulshield

- baleful/seraph weapon stage 1-12, galaxy 1-7

- full pinnacle accessories

- Soul stage 1-10

- Pet Aura stage 1-10

 

middle stage requirements/limit:

- heroic soulshields, battleground soulshield, MSP soulshield

- raven 1-6, riftwalk 1-6, dawnforged 1-6, galaxy 8-12

- heroic/legendary accessories

- awakened soul - transcendent/cosmic stage 5

 

high stage requirements/limit:

- heroic soulshields, battleground soulshield, MSP soulshield, beluga soulshield

- raven 7-9, riftwalk 6, dawnforged 6, ascendent 1-6

- heroic/legendary accessories

- transcendent/cosmic stage 1 - true transcendent/true cosmic

 

The three stages are basend on our current game version, and would need some adjustments with new content patches. The only thing that never changes with the content updates are the goals of the system:

1. Generating a better pvp experience in general by separating low and high geared players 

2. Giving new players and alternativ characters the chance to participate in BGs with a serious chance of winning

3. Giving high geared players interesting fights vs. other good geared people (no slaugther)

4. Making the class based playstyles and tactics more important again (due to longer fights, fixed soulshield, etc.)

 

The only thing I'm not sure about is, how to implement a proper ranking system (is a ranking system for BGs even needed, as we have a clan BG ranking?) as it doesn't make sense to me giving every stage it's own ranking system (due the exploitability of the ranking system for gaining rewards, like we experience in the current pvp ranking system).

 

regards

 

Edited by Nemises

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I have recently discovered that being in silver around 1400 & up I tend to find more serious match ups. Sure I still get annihilated by the whales half of the time but with gearing up and being able to maintain my rank I have noticed that my win/ lose ratio is much better when I started. 

The current matchmaking system is far from perfect and easily exploitable but recent experience shows me it's not as bad as it seems.

Edited by Justgreencorn
Changed opinion

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Hirukaru   

If they would just use math for MMS it would be fine.

Gear values
Level value
Rank value

--------------
Total value/3 
-------------
Personal value

Now get into 6 members = party value

Look for other parties within xx% range of party average value
And you are done. 

What you suggest has to be adapted each time a new weapon path is released and is not friendly for players without legendary gear. 

But we can keep dreaming it will never happen.

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Milennin   

Yeah, the Battlegrounds are actually quite fun when both teams are fairly evenly matched, unfortunately, it requires the stars and planets to align for it to occur, since almost every game is a one-sided roflstomp due to gear imbalance. And once one team finds out they're severely undergeared versus the opponent, people just start afking or mindlessly throw themselves at the enemy to get the match over with as quickly as possible. It's not fun for either the winning or losing side of the teams. If I want to get a braindead-easy win, I'd rather be playing PvE, and if I wanted to get my ass kicked, then having it happen against a more skilled player in the Arena is less sad and I might learn a thing or two from it.

 

But implementing a good, functional matchmaking system would actually require effort, so chances we'll be seeing it are nigh to zero.

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swpz   

As I posted in another topic, the solution is really simple.

 

Penalize BP for quitting matches instead of rank points, the only time you lose rank points is when you lose a match. That way, well geared players cannot simple quit matches to derank unless they lose to another equal team. The problem right now is well geared players deranking to farm poorly geared players and then ranking up when the season ends. This is the issue at hand. Preventing these players from deranking will solve most of the issues 6v6 faces as the bronze/silver tiers will actually then be populated by poorly geared players who will compete against other poorly geared players. Gold+ will be restricted to players with gear who will fight against other players with gear.

 

 

Edited by swpz

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kdgang   

For people purposely trying to derank by AFK, AFK should be banned from re-queing for certain time and repeat AFK with more severe penalty (Eg. 30min first AFK then 3hrs, 1 day, 3 day). 

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Leyren   
1 hour ago, swpz said:

As I posted in another topic, the solution is really simple.

 

Penalize BP for quitting matches instead of rank points, the only time you lose rank points is when you lose a match. That way, well geared players cannot simple quit matches to derank unless they lose to another equal team. The problem right now is well geared players deranking to farm poorly geared players and then ranking up when the season ends. This is the issue at hand. Preventing these players from deranking will solve most of the issues 6v6 faces as the bronze/silver tiers will actually then be populated by poorly geared players who will compete against other poorly geared players. Gold+ will be restricted to players with gear who will fight against other players with gear.

 

 

Great, now they afk instead of leaving.

6 hours ago, Hirukaru said:

If they would just use math for MMS it would be fine.

Gear values
Level value
Rank value

--------------
Total value/3 
-------------
Personal value

Now get into 6 members = party value

Look for other parties within xx% range of party average value
And you are done. 

What you suggest has to be adapted each time a new weapon path is released and is not friendly for players without legendary gear. 

But we can keep dreaming it will never happen.

If it would be so easy.

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swpz   
5 hours ago, Leyren said:

Great, now they afk instead of leaving.

If it would be so easy.

NC does ban AFK players if they are reported doing so on purpose and frequently.

 

AFKing isn't as simple as leaving, not to mention, if they want to drop rank that bad, then at least they have to waste ~15m of their time doing so, not seconds as under the current system. Having to wait ~15 minutes a match is deterring enough to not have people AFK. If they persist, that's when it's time to start submitting tickets.

Edited by swpz

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Leyren   
12 hours ago, swpz said:

NC does ban AFK players if they are reported doing so on purpose and frequently.

 

AFKing isn't as simple as leaving, not to mention, if they want to drop rank that bad, then at least they have to waste ~15m of their time doing so, not seconds as under the current system. Having to wait ~15 minutes a match is deterring enough to not have people AFK. If they persist, that's when it's time to start submitting tickets.

With "AFK", I included stuff like running around a bit and dying without really fighting. You can't force players to play. That' wont solve anything (and what would remove deranking solve anyway? There's full of high geared players in bronze / silver without deranking)

Edited by Leyren

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swpz   
1 hour ago, Leyren said:

With "AFK", I included stuff like running around a bit and dying without really fighting. You can't force players to play. That' wont solve anything (and what would remove deranking solve anyway? There's full of high geared players in bronze / silver without deranking)

What it achieves is that if players are deranking with the sole purpose of trying to farm lowbies, they must waste significant amounts of time to do so. At 15 minutes a match and -10-20 points per lost game, you're in for a long haul if you're trying to derank. Quitting a battle right now gives you -60 which is far more efficient as the process of quitting the game and reloading takes but 1-2 minutes.

 

Deranking via the intentional losing of games will at most give you -80 points per hour. If someone wants to spend hours deranking, then that's a deterrence enough.

 

Those high geared players tend to win their matches and thus would quickly advance to gold and beyond where they would not be able to grief lowbies via deranking. The only reason why bronze and silver are populated by geared players is due to deranking.

 

It won't remove players determined to derank, but it will significantly reduce the number.

Edited by swpz

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2 hours ago, swpz said:

What it achieves is that if players are deranking with the sole purpose of trying to farm lowbies, they must waste significant amounts of time to do so. At 15 minutes a match and -10-20 points per lost game, you're in for a long haul if you're trying to derank. Quitting a battle right now gives you -60 which is far more efficient as the process of quitting the game and reloading takes but 1-2 minutes.

 

Deranking via the intentional losing of games will at most give you -80 points per hour. If someone wants to spend hours deranking, then that's a deterrence enough.

 

Those high geared players tend to win their matches and thus would quickly advance to gold and beyond where they would not be able to grief lowbies via deranking. The only reason why bronze and silver are populated by geared players is due to deranking.

 

It won't remove players determined to derank, but it will significantly reduce the number.

i agree...

 

it's all about the points received/lost and easy wins!

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FrozenB   
On 8/27/2017 at 4:50 AM, swpz said:

As I posted in another topic, the solution is really simple.

 

Penalize BP for quitting matches instead of rank points, the only time you lose rank points is when you lose a match. That way, well geared players cannot simple quit matches to derank unless they lose to another equal team. The problem right now is well geared players deranking to farm poorly geared players and then ranking up when the season ends. This is the issue at hand. Preventing these players from deranking will solve most of the issues 6v6 faces as the bronze/silver tiers will actually then be populated by poorly geared players who will compete against other poorly geared players. Gold+ will be restricted to players with gear who will fight against other players with gear.

 

 

This won't work because what happen if people get client crash or disconnect when they are in the match. It happens quite alot in BG. In fact, they reduced the -60 elo rank penalty because the players complained the penalty was too much. 

 

On 8/27/2017 at 6:31 AM, kdgang said:

For people purposely trying to derank by AFK, AFK should be banned from re-queing for certain time and repeat AFK with more severe penalty (Eg. 30min first AFK then 3hrs, 1 day, 3 day). 

System can't tell which players are afk. If the system consider a player afk when he/she has 0 damage deal or taken in a match, then it is an easy solution for a player, just go out and die few times and then afk.

 

The BG is indeed for whale. To be honest, what is the point to get the top gear ASAP without BG for whales? The game content (dungeons) don't need top gears. Arena is gear equalized. OpenWorld pvp is always dominated by one side. 

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NightFer   

Let me just give you a brief reason as to why those systems cant exist and doesnt prove effective in other games: people can manipulate their gear to get to a lower bracket. So in the end, you will still see ravens in the lowest tier brackets.

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Dotimus   

i'm just here wondering what players did on arathi basin, alterac valey or any of the other BG's on some other MMO....

 

probably they just went to the forums to rage OR, i don't know, probably they went and grind for gear....

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Kyrrua   

And that is why you can't compare a p2w game with a non p2w game.

We are p2w, deal with it.

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Then there's me. I'm 750+ AP, HM7, only 3 bg pizza pieces, and a Baleful 1.

I don't care about complaints, I don't care about one hits. I still have fun, and it's fairly rewarding to farm battle points, way better than zen beans actually - I bet a lot of ppl would leave if you gate down bg basing on gears.

Also... tier brackets? Nope, they don't work. Ask Revelation Online. 

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Leyren   
19 hours ago, swpz said:

What it achieves is that if players are deranking with the sole purpose of trying to farm lowbies, they must waste significant amounts of time to do so. At 15 minutes a match and -10-20 points per lost game, you're in for a long haul if you're trying to derank. Quitting a battle right now gives you -60 which is far more efficient as the process of quitting the game and reloading takes but 1-2 minutes.

 

Deranking via the intentional losing of games will at most give you -80 points per hour. If someone wants to spend hours deranking, then that's a deterrence enough.

 

Those high geared players tend to win their matches and thus would quickly advance to gold and beyond where they would not be able to grief lowbies via deranking. The only reason why bronze and silver are populated by geared players is due to deranking.

 

It won't remove players determined to derank, but it will significantly reduce the number.

I have raven 6, PvP bagua and both BT accessories. I didn't get nowhere near gold this season, simply because the enemies will have higher geared parties aswell, or I sometimes have nearly full parties with 800 AP people. And also there are lots and lots of people who don't do more than the weekly quest, so I can guarantee you, removing deranking possibilities will change close to nothing. Nearly none of those high geared players you see in bronze / silver have deranked. Actually I don't even know anyone who deranks on purpose, they rather want to keep their rating for the rewards.

 

@Kyrrua

P2W because there is a single aspect in this game where gear is important, to make people do something for it? Since for PvE, you don't need a max soul, and 1v1 / 3v3 is without gear. But in the same time, there are people calling Raven 3 "whale"...

Edited by Leyren

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I have a solution: Dummy gears

 

NC should introduce dummy gears to 6v6. Dummy gears are there to introduce and help the low geared players in 6v6 (hm 8 9 players who really want to get their weekly done). Dummy gears are only available inside battleground; the moment you are out, the gears are gone. 

 

A set of dummy gears would go like this: Galaxy 10, a set of pvp shield with pierce and crit def. 

 

If you have better gears than the dummy gears (raven, ascendant, beluga ss) feel free to use yours and ignore the dummy gears. But if not, dummy gears are there to help. 

 

Of course you can say, how could galaxy 10 fight against ascendant or raven... True, but for me, the idea of dummy gears is to introduce and help the new players, so that they have a better fighting chance. Trust me, galaxy 10 and a basic set of pvp shield would help the undergeared players a ton. 

Edited by Thicc Stoccpot

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FrozenB   
1 hour ago, Thicc Stoccpot said:

I have a solution: Dummy gears

 

NC should introduce dummy gears to 6v6. Dummy gears are there to introduce and help the low geared players in 6v6 (hm 8 9 players who really want to get their weekly done). Dummy gears are only available inside battleground; the moment you are out, the gears are gone. 

 

A set of dummy gears would go like this: Galaxy 10, a set of pvp shield with pierce and crit def. 

 

If you have better gears than the dummy gears (raven, ascendant, beluga ss) feel free to use yours and ignore the dummy gears. But if not, dummy gears are there to help. 

 

Of course you can say, how could galaxy 10 fight against ascendant or raven... True, but for me, the idea of dummy gears is to introduce and help the new players, so that they have a better fighting chance. Trust me, galaxy 10 and a basic set of pvp shield would help the undergeared players a ton. 

Dummy gear such as galaxy 10 won't help at all when you face raven/ascendant geared players. If you do a little researches on forum, you will see that there were tons of posts complaining about how weak galaxy weapon was against raven players before ascendant weapon was out. PVP shield is very easy to get now, from Daily challenges on some days, daily dash and arena (exchange with zean bean).

 

I always say to the new players that they should start PVP in arena first because arena is gear equalize. It is a good place to learn how to pvp with your character. At the same time, you can stock up zean bean for either HM skills or the galaxy fragments for pvp soul shields. I am not telling them to become pvp experts, but as least they should know when to CC and do damage, instead of spamming LMB/RMB. 

 

Ascendant > Raven >>> Galaxy => Seraph/Baleful 

There is a big gap between galaxy and raven/ascendant weapon in pvp.

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I don't know how many of you actually do 6v6. I've queued on my baleful 8 alt and have faced teams with raven users and won (best on my team was a baleful 12). I've also been on teams with 2 raven users and lost. Ravens gear isn't as game changing as ascendent gear in 6v6 as some of you seem to think.

 

However, not playing objectives, not knowing pvp basics and making poor decisions will make you lose. Max gear won't save you from screwing over your own team if you are always not where you are supposed to be.

 

There is a reason why some raven people are low silver/bronze, and it's not purposefully deranking themselves...

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FrozenB   
18 minutes ago, 886688_1452550529 said:

I don't know how many of you actually do 6v6. I've queued on my baleful 8 alt and have faced teams with raven users and won (best on my team was a baleful 12). I've also been on teams with 2 raven users and lost. Ravens gear isn't as game changing as ascendent gear in 6v6 as some of you seem to think.

 

However, not playing objectives, not knowing pvp basics and making poor decisions will make you lose. Max gear won't save you from screwing over your own team if you are always not where you are supposed to be.

 

There is a reason why some raven people are low silver/bronze, and it's not purposefully deranking themselves...

Well...then, those raven geared players must be really bad. Plus, I think that BG is beluga because if the team with raven geared people don't defend the horns and just focus on pvp, they will lose the match easily. In WWV, it is purely gear based. 

 

Raven was game changing before ascendant came out and this kind of BG complaint posts were in the forum since WWV BG released. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, FrozenB said:

Well...then, those raven geared players must be really bad. Plus, I think that BG is beluga because if the team with raven geared people don't defend the horns and just focus on pvp, they will lose the match easily. In WWV, it is purely gear based. 

 

Raven was game changing before ascendant came out and this kind of BG complaint posts were in the forum since WWV BG released. 

 

 

Actually, I do WWV on my alt because I want the achievement to buy shields 6, 7, and 8. There are objectives in WWV, too. E.g. If you can stall several people from capping a pot, even if you can't kill anyone, and your team mates are smart enough to use this chance to cap/defend other pots it's win for your team.

 

It's not really the raven gear that makes some people good, it's their experience. When raven gear first came out, people entered 6v6 like they were doing another pve dungeon. It's easier to complain about gear differentials than finding a way to work around it. Now, at low ELO, having smart team mates is way better than having raven any day.

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swpz   

In Beluga it is... possible to win vs Raven if they don't defend the horns. All it takes is 2, one to park top and bottom and your team is screwed if you don't have Raven/Ascendants of your own. But generally speaking, unless the raven players are utterly terrible, you won't win.

 

In WWV it's even worse as they can simply camp your spawn and kill anyone who jumps. Beluga has windstride points that make it possible to bypass this. Again, all it takes is 2 geared players to camp top and bottom and it's game over if your team doesn't have players that can kill them. There is no need to take all 3 points, 2 will suffice.

 

Galaxy is weak... far too weak frankly. As a PVP weapon. Galaxy 12 should be stronger than Raven 1-2 in PVP at least. However, that is not the case, Raven 1 >>>> any Galaxy weapon. Critical defense is useless, an elemental defense stat is required. Currently elemental damage makes a mockery of PVP soulshields as it bypasses any and all defense. You could have the Galaxy effect active and still get 1 shot by a Raven, because that +10,000 defense is useless.

Edited by swpz

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A good compromise would be to make a non rated mode that equalize stats to still reward players for winning and losing and a bigger incentive to go into the geared version.

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There are a few reasons why there are ravens in bronze and silver. First and foremost not all ravens like to do bg and do it occasionally thus they wont be high ranking. Second there are the ppl who only care about having fun and killing so they tend to ignore stuff like taking horns or braziers and just go brazenly in your face to get as much kills as possible. Third are the ppl who think pvp=pve and once they face someone with knowledge of pvp they get completey wrecked and stay at low rankings and lastly are the ppl whos ping are shit and still do bg anyways, the dcers as you call em. I dont think ive ever seen any raven purposefully throw a match most of the time i see ppl afk or dc its the low level scrubs.

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