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1 minute ago, swpz said:

No, let me give you an example. I took a year break, at the time I took this break I was at 700 AP.

 

When I came back, I got very confused as to why someone in True Ivorymoon could get 700 AP when I needed Baleful 9 for that. I also became very confused as to why things like DT, EC, needed "800 AP" - it's as if something had happened while I was gone.

 

Then I figured out what the problem was, HM attack points. Putting 40 into attack shot my attack from 700 -> 860.

 

What is the point? The requirements haven't actually "changed", they simply adapted to the new attack that EVERYONE could access due to HM skill points. So say DT that used to need 600 AP to complete, well now it needs 800 simply because 800 is accessible with HM attack. That and the lack of mechanics mean that you need higher AP to complete before enrage.

i agree on that but new players who rushed doing the yellow quests only dont get 800ap they are around 700ap or less and they cant find people to run stuff with in cross with that ap cause they will get kicked instantly in most dungeons even when you actually only need like 500ap for the old silverfrost dungeons (lair yeti necro cold storage asura mandate and nexus) while for citadel and tomb those were doable with 700 before the nerf and the lowest ap i have seen they ask for those dungeons is 800 for normal mode 

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No one in their right mind would want it any lower than it already is. It's bad enough that it went from 70+ last year to 1-6.

It is because players have been complaining over and over again about the fees in the game. The mail fees for the gem were supposed to be a gold sink, but they reduced them down to the ground. Now, pe

Yeah but do you really think your gold will get sold if others do the same? It's gonna be the same problem as it is now, you won't sell any because there's just too much supply and the demand doesn't

24 minutes ago, ShadowNIghtmare said:

i agree on that but new players who rushed doing the yellow quests only dont get 800ap they are around 700ap or less and they cant find people to run stuff with in cross with that ap cause they will get kicked instantly in most dungeons even when you actually only need like 500ap for the old silverfrost dungeons (lair yeti necro cold storage asura mandate and nexus) while for citadel and tomb those were doable with 700 before the nerf and the lowest ap i have seen they ask for those dungeons is 800 for normal mode 

Rushing yellow quests has no correlation with gold to NC coin ratios. Whatever the ratio it doesn't affect new players or lower geared players in the least. People who want to whale will whale, and these people will be playing with fellow whales anyways. The only time new players are affected is in 6v6 where whales will completely roll them. But this is an NC balancing issue that they need to fix.

 

Now, as for the AP issue. Full Pinnacle, True Ivorymoon and HM gems (these are literally handed out like hotcakes now compared to before, they even hand out souls now where as you had to hardcore farm materials for them in NL before) and assuming at least 30 HM points into attack will be 750ish AP. This is okay for most instances up to DT so long as the players aren't totally incompetent. Higher such as NF+ 750 of course will not do, but this should not be a surprise. DT is a hit and miss. With 800 you are guaranteed (unless people are stupid and die to bombs and lava) to kill the boss on time. With only 700, the boss may enrage due to lack of DPS. Remember that the mechanics nerf is a double edged sword. It makes it "easier" but you compensate for the damage that the mechanics would have dealt with your own DPS from your own gear instead. So it's "easier' in a gameplay sense, but "harder" in a gear sense.

Edited by swpz
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3 hours ago, swpz said:

"Whales like me" are who pays for the game, you have a free game because of people who are willing to shell out for it.

I said it recently in another post, but I'll repeat it here.

 

"Whales" don't exclusively pay for the game. If they did, NCSOFT would directly sell gold as well as NCoin. What NCSOFT actually do is act like an employment agency; they get paid by a client/whale to find an employee/f2p worker to gather gold for them. It works while both parties are happy.

 

The game is already distinctly unrewarding for f2p players. You have to work your backside off to gather gold, and you can't obtain it in the normal ways you can in other games, e.g. mob farming, free gathering of crafting mats, etc.

 

If they make it even less rewarding, by lowering the exchange rate, you'll end up with only whales and gold-selling bots playing the game.

 

There has to be a balance, and the game has to be fun, rather than a job.

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1 hour ago, Grumpypants said:

I said it recently in another post, but I'll repeat it here.

 

"Whales" don't exclusively pay for the game. If they did, NCSOFT would directly sell gold as well as NCoin. What NCSOFT actually do is act like an employment agency; they get paid by a client/whale to find an employee/f2p worker to gather gold for them. It works while both parties are happy.

 

The game is already distinctly unrewarding for f2p players. You have to work your backside off to gather gold, and you can't obtain it in the normal ways you can in other games, e.g. mob farming, free gathering of crafting mats, etc.

 

If they make it even less rewarding, by lowering the exchange rate, you'll end up with only whales and gold-selling bots playing the game.

 

There has to be a balance, and the game has to be fun, rather than a job.

No, but let's put it this way. People who pay, pay for this game. Free players are nothing but freeloaders to put it bluntly. They are there as volume so that there are players around. So while it may not be rewarding for free players, keep in mind that that is because it is free. BnS makes it obvious that if you are a free player, you have many restrictions - even a wardrobe is not available to you as a free player.

 

So whether or not the game is rewarding for free players is likely not part of any consideration. It is already very unrewarding as per design (unless you know the gimmicks), very basic things are obtainable only if you have a subscription. Simply based on these facts it should be obvious that any decisions are made with paying players in mind.

 

On another note, gold is accessible depending on your class. You could be farming gold at a healthy rate of 25-100 per hour doing battlegrounds depending on your win rate (buy the chests for MS and SS), you could farm SSP, you could farm arena and get SS from zen beans. There are many ways that are open, and this is probably why there is so much gold in the economy right now, there are too many ways to farm gold rather than too few. Simply doing every daily quest nets around 50G as well, this is accessible to anyone and everyone. It's not just gold bots that are farming although SSP is choked with them.

 

Inflation is a huge issue though as it takes hundreds of G to do anything anymore.

 

Generally speaking, buyers are king. The seller is never king, NC setting an arbitrary limit basically turns it into a protectionist measure for sellers and puts buyers at the short end of the stick.

 

 

 

Edited by swpz
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It is a simple matter: I am no whale, hence I would not buy any gold at 1:3. However, I will buy a decent amount of gold if it is below 2.5. You guys either get no ncoin from me or pay me more gold for the same amount of real money.

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On 8/23/2017 at 11:13 AM, DannyInfect said:

That's the point, if people cant sell gold and get HMcoin at the current rate, it should be lowered, i'd gladly sell my gold at a 2.5 rate.

I don't know if am the only one that thinks this way but i think is extremely stupid to keep lowering the rate. I mean you go and farm like crazy to sell your gold and buy what you want in the f10 given a lot of ppl can't buy Ncoins, but what you get for the gold is practically nothing. What is the the meaning is having this exchange service we don't have in any other game if is a waste like it is now. I think NC Soft should reset all the sells so it gets back to a decent rate where everyone can get a fair exchange gold=HMcoin

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10 hours ago, Serzey said:

I don't know if am the only one that thinks this way but i think is extremely stupid to keep lowering the rate. I mean you go and farm like crazy to sell your gold and buy what you want in the f10 given a lot of ppl can't buy Ncoins, but what you get for the gold is practically nothing. What is the the meaning is having this exchange service we don't have in any other game if is a waste like it is now. I think NC Soft should reset all the sells so it gets back to a decent rate where everyone can get a fair exchange gold=HMcoin

i dont want to be rude but that wont work gold now is a bit easy to farm im telling this as someone who can barely play 2-3 hrs peer day what i only do in game is make daily challange in 3 characters+couple of fast dung HM+CS+avalanche wich end giving me 40-50g peer character in the end i make easilly almost 150 gold.

Im not a whale but i buy nc wen i have some spare money and belive me i wont bougth gold let say 50gx500 nc(1:10) because i can wait another day and make those 50g myself in less than 30 min.

Face it at the start of the game people didnt have like 50k gold in their characters thats why gold was something whales would bougth trough currency exchange now that whales have their excesive amount of gold they dont need currency exchange so now here is the question, to who will you sell gold? the answer is most of the time to the standar player who spend a little amount of money in nc like 1.000 to 4.000 and  they wont want to give you 1.000 nc x 100 gold nop just nop it doesnt worth for something you can get in game in about 2hrs of gaming depending on your game progress.

 

the inflation, in game currency devaluation are the most common problem in f2p as the game became older

Edited by Arkdain
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Id say should not lower it than 5 but better make it higher, only players who pays to win would only be the ones to benefit from it dont ya think? Also you really think lowering the currency exchanhe would let you sell gold faster, lol no dude. Some sellers attitude be like, "Ill sell my gold lower than the current lowest price so i can sell it fast, then other seller with the same mindset as you would do too. Means problem not solved. XD

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Again I see a lot of free players wanting as much real life money equivalent as possible for their freely generated in game gold.

 

I shouldn't have to repeat myself, but buyer is king; and let's have things from the perspective of a buyer. The ones who buy NC coin are the ones who will ultimately use F9/F10. If the price is too high, we won't buy. Nothing will going to magically sell without someone purchasing NC coin and then using F9/F10. As buyers, we look for the best deals possible. Deals are constantly evolving and moving, there is no set in stone price, ever. I see the argument from some that the ratio used to be higher, used to are the key words. The economy 2 years ago isn't the economy 2 years later, do you expect prices to stay constant and not change? As things have changed and we know there is a cap, well as buyers we are demanding the cap be removed, why should we be forced to pay a protected premium for a product?

 

I'd say a minimum of 1:1 ratio would be fair however.

 

At the end of the day, someone is shelling out real money, that's where it counts.

 

Given that F9 is filled with stacks upon stacks of 3:1 and not selling, I'd say a significant amount of buyers are holding off until NC changes their ratios. A wise move.

Edited by swpz
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14 minutes ago, swpz said:

Again I see a lot of free players wanting as much real life money equivalent as possible for their freely generated in game gold.

 

I shouldn't have to repeat myself, but buyer is king; and let's have things from the perspective of a buyer. The ones who buy NC coin are the ones who will ultimately use F9/F10. If the price is too high, we won't buy. Nothing will going to magically sell without someone purchasing NC coin and then using F9/F10. As buyers, we look for the best deals possible. Deals are constantly evolving and moving, there is no set in stone price, ever. I see the argument from some that the ratio used to be higher, used to are the key words. The economy 2 years ago isn't the economy 2 years later, do you expect prices to stay constant and not change? As things have changed and we know there is a cap, well as buyers we are demanding the cap be removed, why should we be forced to pay a protected premium for a product?

 

I'd say a minimum of 1:1 ratio would be fair however.

 

Complain all one wants really, but at the end of the day, someone is shelling out real money, that's where it counts.

 

Given that F9 is filled with stacks upon stacks of 3:1 and not selling, I'd say a significant amount of buyers are holding off until NC changes their ratios. A wise move.

Have you ever heard the idiom "time is money"?

 

With the way F2P MMOs work these days, it's as true of virtual economies as real economies. There's no such thing as "free." Whether you do a real job and spend your cash on a game, or play a game like a job, or a mix of both, it all amounts to the same thing. It's extremely sad, but it's true.

 

What you basically want is some poor sap cleaning your toilet for less than minimum wage, rather than paying them a decent salary for a thankless job.

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true.

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2 minutes ago, Grumpypants said:

Have you ever heard the idiom "time is money"?

 

With the way F2P MMOs work these days, it's as true of virtual economies as real economies. There's no such thing as "free." Whether you do a real job and spend your cash on a game, or play a game like a job, or a mix of both, it all amounts to the same thing. It's extremely sad, but it's true.

 

What you basically want is some poor sap cleaning your toilet for less than minimum wage, rather than paying them a decent salary for a thankless job.

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true.

Free market is free market. If a buyer says I want a product, it's up to the sellers to compete against each other to convince the buyer their product is the cheapest and best. Protected prices means no competition, means the buyer gets shafted. Price fixing isn't free market.

 

A job pays, gaming like it's a job does not. You are literally arguing that people should make as much gaming as if they had an actual job? Gaming is a past time, a hobby, not a revenue generating activity unless you are a professional gamer who is paid to play. Then that's different. Expecting real money and expecting to be able to set the ratio for one's time when one makes a decision to play a game is pretty egregious.

 

I'm certain that people who have time to game as if it were an actual job are either a) retired and this wouldn't have problems buying NC coin anyways or b) should go get a job so that they too have disposable income.

 

Harsh but true.

Edited by swpz
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25 minutes ago, swpz said:

Free market is free market. If a buyer says I want a product, it's up to the sellers to compete against each other to convince the buyer their product is the cheapest and best. Protected prices means no competition, means the buyer gets shafted. Price fixing isn't free market.

 

A job pays, gaming like it's a job does not. You are literally arguing that people should make as much gaming as if they had an actual job? Gaming is a past time, a hobby, not a revenue generating activity unless you are a professional gamer who is paid to play. Then that's different. Expecting real money and expecting to be able to set the ratio for one's time when one makes a decision to play a game is pretty egregious.

 

I'm certain that people who have time to game as if it were an actual job are either a) retired and this wouldn't have problems buying NC coin anyways or b) should go get a job so that they too have disposable income.

 

Harsh but true.

So, you're basically arguing that F2P players should just stay away from BnS then?

 

Let's face it, once you've run the story on one character and had a few weeks of the combat, there's nothing left but grind. If that grind is not rewarding for time invested, then why would players stay, when there are countless other F2P games out there, or buyable games for PC and consoles that provide a lot more entertainment for your money?

 

Let's also remember that the founding principle of BnS in NA/EU was that it would not be P2W, yet that is exactly what it is. Not only do you buy the typical things you see in F2P games, such as cosmetics, premium and boosts, you can also buy essential upgrade materials, dungeon drops, items from the achievement vendor, etc.

 

Anyway, I'm not even sure why I'm arguing. NCSOFT's actions speak louder than any opinions on here, and they largely support what you say, either with increasing prices for costumes - such as Loose Cannon - or lack of a fix for the exchange, etc.

 

Maybe I'll login for content updates, but I'd rather spend disposable income on quality PS4 games.

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Lol so once again players are confusing p2w . You as a F2P players are not being locked behind a paywall to progress nor are players who spend money on the game receiving a stat increase that you as f2p cannot already get in game, costumes are a luxury not a necessity and most games have you looking pleb unless you do swipe or their event outfits are time limited. I am a player who buys only cosmetics and premium and i can tell you for sure it's easy af to hit end game all you need is some luck and a good raid group. Those materials are readily available in game all with the exception of evolve stones which the reliable method was removed due to moonwater becoming dated but even they are still sold all the time in mp and can even be obtained from ssp /cb/peak times. 

 

Does the game have it's problems? Absolutely. But pay to win isn't one of them they even made it easier than ever to progress only thing holding players back is themselves for lack of knowing mechs or finding a decent clan to participate with.

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On 8/24/2017 at 9:07 PM, swpz said:

If that is what the market dictated, then yes.

 

I don't like controlled markets where there are statutory caps. That simply leads to monopolies where certain parties hold all the advantage and others are always sidelined. The lack of undercutting these days due to the 3 cap is quite detrimental to players who wish to sell fast - and are willing to sell lower but cannot. It also limits options for buyers who are naturally looking for a better deal.

 

Also, it seems that most posters here are basically sellers who want to keep their protected ratios where as they fail to consider the ones buying - who would clearly like the ratio lowered as it would benefit them.

It is for buyer's advantage too. People buy items mostly in daily HM store. If they ratio is too low and they don't get any benefit from buying the items there, they won't even sell the golds for the coins. Right now, people spam at 1:3 ratio because they can save some golds from buying stuff in the market. If it is 1:1, they will actually use more golds in HM store than the market. So, less people will sell golds and thus harder time for buyer to get their golds. Also, people will spam on forum shouting at the GMs because of ridiculous high price for a costume in HM store.

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On 8/28/2017 at 11:59 PM, FrozenB said:

It is for buyer's advantage too. People buy items mostly in daily HM store. If they ratio is too low and they don't get any benefit from buying the items there, they won't even sell the golds for the coins. Right now, people spam at 1:3 ratio because they can save some golds from buying stuff in the market. If it is 1:1, they will actually use more golds in HM store than the market. So, less people will sell golds and thus harder time for buyer to get their golds. Also, people will spam on forum shouting at the GMs because of ridiculous high price for a costume in HM store.

Free players will still sell gold for HM coins as that is their only avenue of getting stuff off F10. There would be no need for paying players to buy off F10 to sell if the gold exchange ratio was better but they would still buy NC coin to exchange for gold. Those deals are used because of the 3:1 rate, for example, 30 NC coin radiant energies cost about 20G in game, so that's an effective 1.5:1 rate. So 30 NC coin is purchased and used to convert into gold. However, let's take away that and set the rate at 1:1. NC coin is still purchased to exchange for gold, nothing changes aside from that it is not used in F10 to convert into sellable items. Instead it is used in F9.

 

NC doesn't lose at all in this, if anything, they might gain more NC coin purchases.

 

Paying players won't be affected aside from being able to get a better deal for their money.

 

On 8/26/2017 at 8:16 PM, Grumpypants said:

So, you're basically arguing that F2P players should just stay away from BnS then?

 

Let's face it, once you've run the story on one character and had a few weeks of the combat, there's nothing left but grind. If that grind is not rewarding for time invested, then why would players stay, when there are countless other F2P games out there, or buyable games for PC and consoles that provide a lot more entertainment for your money?

 

Let's also remember that the founding principle of BnS in NA/EU was that it would not be P2W, yet that is exactly what it is. Not only do you buy the typical things you see in F2P games, such as cosmetics, premium and boosts, you can also buy essential upgrade materials, dungeon drops, items from the achievement vendor, etc.

 

Anyway, I'm not even sure why I'm arguing. NCSOFT's actions speak louder than any opinions on here, and they largely support what you say, either with increasing prices for costumes - such as Loose Cannon - or lack of a fix for the exchange, etc.

 

Maybe I'll login for content updates, but I'd rather spend disposable income on quality PS4 games.


 BNS is pay to win to the point where it is on par with Perfect World games.

 

It would be naive to think otherwise.

 

However, the redeeming factor is optional open world PVP - so that "pay to win" cannot simply run around killing everyone.

 

I tend to spend my disposable income on Steam store games. The fact that they make sales, discounts and bundles makes it worthwhile for me. NC doesn't have any sense of promotions, no sense of advertising, they literally are lazy as ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤. Sit there and expect people to pay them. It's actually hilarious in that I have not really seen a company's marketing department so incompetently run - and yet, no one is fired.

Edited by swpz
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after thinking about the gold cap a while, I feel that there should not be a gold cap.

 

the ftp's will cry that their gold is worthless. the problem is that their gold really is worthless (i'm basically a ftp slacker that spent $50 one time to pay my share for using this game)

 

when I first started playing a year ago, my first thought was "that gold exchange is total BS squared because you don't get crap for your real money"

T that point, I decided that real money is for ncoins only and get the gold in-game.  the exchange rate, IMO, was totally bogus for the person actually investing real money.

 

 

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  • NCSOFT

Hello,

 

As stated in an older post, our stance regarding the Currency Exchange hasn't changed and we have no plan on lowering the Exchange rate. The Market (players) will always set the rate themselves directly and we won't interfere for reasons already stated on my previous post. The solution to fix an economy is certainly not by adding blockers than can easily be circumvented by players.

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1 hour ago, Youmukon said:

Hello,

 

As stated in an older post, our stance regarding the Currency Exchange hasn't changed and we have no plan on lowering the Exchange rate. The Market (players) will always set the rate themselves directly and we won't interfere for reasons already stated on my previous post. The solution to fix an economy is certainly not by adding blockers than can easily be circumvented by players.

Didn't YOU make it so that the rate can't go lower than 1:3 ? How can players set the rates themselves when you limit their options ? 

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I was able to buy some hongmoon coin by selling my in game gold in a 100g stack instead of 10g stacks. Also when I purchase Ncoin and buy gold from currency exchange, I usually look for 100g stacks and up. The only time I buy a 10g stack is if I have small amounts of Ncoin left back that cannot be used to purchase even 50g. Another aspect of my experience with the currency exchange is patience. It is almost useless to post gold on the currency exchange and expect it to sell immediately. As such I do not purchase hongmoon coin in response to f10 on the day. Instead once I have accumulated enough gold, I post it and just wait. What this means is that I always have hongmoon coin in case something pops up in f10 that I want. If hongmoon coin cannot cover the cost and I really want (this is a game so there are no needs here) an item that urgently I will charge for some Ncoin. 

 

So to me two issues affecting players trying to purchase hongmoon coins are 1) lack of patience: posting today and expecting it to sell immediately and 2) selling gold in stacks that most Ncoin purchasers have little use for.

 

In terms of players setting the rate themself: even though it is capped at 1:3 and cannot go lower, it can go higher. There used to be a time when the rate would rise and fall but now it basically constant. This is because most players are looking for a quick sale and are in such a rush to get an item from f10 that they undervalue the effort they put in to get that gold. If player decided they could theoretically raise the value of their gold to 1:5. Of course realistically it will remain at 1:3.

 

As others noted lowering the cap below 1:3 WILL NOT make selling gold on currency exchange any eaiser or faster. It would also devalue your effort in game (farming gold) and Ncoin purchasers will be kings of the economy. Of course once they max out and have no use for your gold you will end up with a stagnant currency exchange hence my support for the idea of gold sinks. Not the punitive kind, but reasonable sinks that would encourage players to want to spend that gold. So for example being able to purchase timed wardrobe spaces for in game gold. RNG wheels etc, and not stuff you have to get to advance, just trivial stuff but items we would still want.

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  • NCSOFT
1 hour ago, amokk said:

Didn't YOU make it so that the rate can't go lower than 1:3 ? How can players set the rates themselves when you limit their options ? 

That change was mostly technical due to rounding issues, with how the current formula works (for rate to be adjusted depending on Market). If the rate would dip too low it wouldn't be able to recover ever hence why the "low cap".  Obviously back then (at the time my message was written in 2016) rounding was less of an issue since the rate were higher than they were today.

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3 hours ago, Youmukon said:

Hello,

 

As stated in an older post, our stance regarding the Currency Exchange hasn't changed and we have no plan on lowering the Exchange rate. The Market (players) will always set the rate themselves directly and we won't interfere for reasons already stated on my previous post. The solution to fix an economy is certainly not by adding blockers than can easily be circumvented by players.

 

I don't want the rate to be lowered, is already low as it is, but atm you can't sell any amount of gold that is lower than 1k.
F9 is stuck with 5g batches, gold doesn't sell at all.

Just now, Youmukon said:

That change was mostly technical due to rounding issues, with how the current formula works (for rate to be adjusted depending on Market). If the rate would dip too low it wouldn't be able to recover ever hence why the "low cap".  Obviously back then (at the time my message was written in 2016) rounding was less of an issue since the rate were higher than they were today.

 

But, if you don't want to lower the rate and I agree that it won't be a solution, what are you going to do about the current situation?
Like I said, no batch lower than 1k sells, and I don't have 1k to waste in F9.

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  • NCSOFT

The ideal solution to fix this would be doing like in real life to some extent, using a state of the art buy/sell orders system instead of using a single listing system like we currently do...

 

In an ideal world what you would want to do is creating a buy/sell order for the exact amount you want and the exact rate you want. Then one or several buyers/sellers would fulfil your order until the amount is met or until your order expires. You could list a buy order for 3,000 NCoins at @ 1:3  (1,000 gold) and have basically 10 different sellers fulfilling your request with various amounts until you actually get your 3,000 NCoins. As long as your buy order remain the most competitive, any sell order put within the rate you've set will automatically be fulfilled and you will receive the currency. In case of a "tie" (same rate between multiple buyers or sellers) the oldest order would have precedence. 

 

The current system is heavily crippled due to technical limitations and how it was initially designed with the intent of making more "friendly" and less technical. It would have to be completely revamped for the above to happen and unfortunately as far as I know no changes are planed right now so there isn't much which can be fixed.

 

1 hour ago, Mad Sofia said:

The idea sounds cool, but if they're not gonna implement it, I think there's no point in even trying to sell any gold amount rn.

RIP HM coins, it was good till it lasted.

 

Feedback is still very important to us, so those threads aren't useless even if no changes are currently planned. It's thanks to those threads that we can escalate your valuable feedback and try to get things changed. Obviously we cannot promise anything, but it doesn't cost much to try. It's in everyone's best interest (including us) to have game features that actually satisfy our players needs instead of being frustrating to use.

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If I'm correct in other regions price in hongmoon coins are higher than NCcoins. And venture tokens are used for crafting, transmutation. anyway. what about everything needing 20x more hongmoon coins ( in example  dragon trade pouch would cost 800 hongmoon coins, instead current 39) but increasing drop rate like this: green token: 80%; blue 40% purple 10%.and it wont be too much of tokens except green ones from rewards. Then you wouldn't even need to sell gold :)

 

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