Golden Flower - Copied?

[RavTH]

13 hours ago, Raindeavour said:

 

Even though she did not base her artwork off of one single image, but she still copied certain parts in full off multiple images all from the same game. According to your logic, if I create an artwork by copying the shoes of sailormoon (same color same style), the top of Misa from Death note (down to every strand of the lace details), the skirt and one sided earring of Yuna from Final Fantasy (same shape, design, and color) and compile them into one single outfit, I can call that my own original design? I wouldn't. That is copying at best, not designing at all. 

 

That is what is happening here. The artist may not copy ONE artwork in full, but her work can hardly count as her own original design - because she is copying different parts from different source of references. When I said copy, I mean copy in full - down to the color, texture, shape and size. As for B) Similar only because it's from the same source aka Japanese Styles - really? There are hundreds and thousands of different resources, drawings, photographs, illustrations out there on the net on Japanese Styles. Why are ALL of the similarities of her design come from the SAME source? (Onmyoji) You can argue from this point all day long but ask yourself this: Do you really REALLY think that when she was designing her artwork, she wasn't looking at the references images of Onmyoji, she just had in mind the generic Zori, Tabi, Obi, rope knot etc and somehow the artwork she created just look SIMILAR to Onmyoji's down to the color selection, size and placement just because she's creating a "Japanese Style" outfit? 

 

Since you said that all my circle parts of the breakdown are either A or B, tell me what you think of these:

 

1. Is this A or B? Same raised collar, white and golden yellow stripes, two japanese knots of the same shape same color at the same position. Same japanese knot of the same size at the bottom of both images, with the same golden yellow piece at the back. Both sleeves start at the same position with white inner layer and blue outer layer. 

 

2. Is this A or B? Same sandals, same socks, same colors, even same length. Same mini pleated skirt (okay different color), same ribbon shape (ok again different color) But the overall design other than the slight color changes, is this not the same DESIGN at first glance? 

 

3. Don't see how the ribbon is the same? Here, have a little overlay action. Is this A or B?

 

4. But she didn't copy the bell on the ribbon!! Surely that makes the whole thing different!!! What about this Japanese knot from another image of the SAME GAME? Is this A or B? Have a little bit more of overlay fun~ If they are such common Japanese/Chinese adornment, why do they both overlap almost 100% perfectly? There are so many ways to draw a Japanese knot, why this particular shape, size, color? Why do the Obi have the same tone of teal and gold? I would do more eyedropper comparison but I'm just lazy at this point. It's obvious to the naked eyes.

 

 

5. How about the shoes? Are these A or B? Note the same thickness of the base, same length of the socks, and even same design at the same position on top. Let's pick some colors using the color picker tool.... oh what do we know?! Look at the difference of the colors, can you even tell the difference?!

 

6. What about this, A or B? Are dangling knots such a common design on Kimono/Yukata? I tried googling for similar designs. The keywords I used included "Japanese Knot Kimono Sleeves", "Yukata with Japanese Knot"... but I did not find anything remotely similar to this style. Maybe you can point me to the right direction?

 

7. Is this A or B? Too bad I couldn't find the backview of this particular character from Onmyoji, or else I could have some more overlay fun! Same color, same style, okay okay Shiro's ribbon is slightly lower - YOU GOT ME! This is totally different!!! /s

 

Basically, other than the hair, everything on the female design were copied from artworks from Onmyoji. I think that constitute 90% similarity if not more. 

 

There are many ways of referencing from a source of inspiration, what she's doing isn't referencing in my book. If you feel like I was fobbing off your opinion with my choice of words, I'm sorry you feel that way. Like I mentioned again and again, every one are entitled to their own opinions. But in my OWN personal opinion, those who are arguing that this is not a case of plagiarism is clearly being ignorant. I do not understand how one can fail to see how she is blatantly copying from the artworks of Onmyoji. Almost every artist I've talked to feel the same. You can feel free to think the same about me, I won't be offended. 

you have alot of time.

[Syphin]

Raindeavour is trying to educate those refusing to accept that such conduct is not okay in the context of a competition. S/he is only going so far with the evidence because words only go so far.

 

There is no witch hunt going on.

 

Thank you for the time and effort Raindevour. I hope it helps, even if slightly, ensure that next years competition isn't like this years or last years.

[Lemy]

45 minutes ago, DarkAngel72 said:

My Question is why haven't the Mod's stepped in and closed down this thread for people are constantly attacking 1 person, and the hate for 1 thing or another in this thread is too high. 

All I see are people giving constructive criticism but not any personal attacks towards her, her design is actually very pretty. By her being an artist I would hope she takes the advice from some of the artists/people commenting here because imagine if she does something like this when she gets bigger in a competition etc, she could end up with a bad reputation or there could be a lawsuit out for her if she didn't have the rights from the creators. Some people are very serious about others copying their artwork. I agree though that it's probably time for the mods to step in and give some closure.

[Kyrrua]

her design can't be very pretty since its not her design.

 

If she's not eliminated of the competition then don't mind me copying her own work for the next contest. Kappa

Free rewards.

[Raindeavour]

4 hours ago, Unseelie said:

Raindeavour, you really have way too much time on your hands, don't you...? You say you have nothing personal against the artist, and yet here you are, on a witch hunt. Making overlays seems really obsessive. Even if I can see your point, the artist apologized and undoubtedly will learn from their mistake. 

 

Why don't you take a good long look at the first entry and tell me that isn't heavily referenced and copied. They damn near traced poharan's hare for crissakes. Why aren't you down on THAT costume?!

As Syphin said above, I aim to raise the awareness on the issue on art theft and art plagiarism. The pictures comparison and overlay are not wasting my time and I'm not being obsessive. Words can only do so much without visual support. I've mentioned previously that I am a lecturer in an Art and Design college and if anything I can use that as my material and a case study in one of my classes for my students next time I'm covering the topic of art theft and plagiarism. 

 

Like I said, I did not purposely want to dig so much into this particular entry. But those people who in the face of such clear and blatant copying still shouting that "IT'S NOT COPYING THIS IS NOT PLAGIARISM" made me feel like I have to say/show something to prove my point. There are certain things people feel strongly about, for me this is one of such things where it hits home as a fellow designer. I think it should be talked about more so that people know what actually is art theft/art plagiarism. Artists' rights are often overlooked. I am not attacking the artist. Her entry however just happen to be the case we have on hand here for the discussion of art plagiarism. All the comparison I made are not directed to her, but to the people who failed to see why this is a clear case of art plagiarism. 

 

Everyone can see Blackmoon's hair is similar to Poharan, there's nothing to be said there. But nothing else of that entry was copied from any other existing artwork(s) as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to go out of my way to look for evidence for all 10 entries, like how I did not look for the images for this particular one in the first place. Someone else did, I saw them, I saw the plagiarism, and now I'm trying to raise awareness to this issue. That is all.

[Raindeavour]

 

See my response above :) The time used on this is not waste, I can use the materials on my job. Plus, server was down for maintenance, and it took me less than 20 minutes to compile all those images and gifs. 

1 hour ago, RavTH said:

you have alot of time.

[Raindeavour]

1 hour ago, Khaen said:

Where do you find people attacking one person? Where is this hatred? 
All I'm seeing is a failing attempt to raise awareness of art thievery within the community, and an alarming level of willful ignorance in favor of self satisfaction. 
 

This. There's no hate. People need to understand this is not an attack, none of the evidence I made or showed is directed to the artist herself but more for the people who failed to see why this is a case of art plagiarism. The level of willful ignorance is high here. 

[Raindeavour]

1 hour ago, Syphin said:

Raindeavour is trying to educate those refusing to accept that such conduct is not okay in the context of a competition. S/he is only going so far with the evidence because words only go so far.

There is no witch hunt going on.

Thank you for the time and effort Raindevour. I hope it helps, even if slightly, ensure that next years competition isn't like this years or last years.

Thank you for your understanding! It amazes me how so many people failed to see my intention and automatically call it an attack or witch hunt. I hope it doesn't happen again as well, but sometimes people do it unintentionally. It's NC's job to do something about when such issue is brought into light. This debate has gone on long enough, and I feel it's time mods step in and provide official statement about what NC is going to do with this. 

[Malign]

3 hours ago, Raindeavour said:

As Syphin said above, I aim to raise the awareness on the issue on art theft and art plagiarism. The pictures comparison and overlay are not wasting my time and I'm not being obsessive. Words can only do so much without visual support. I've mentioned previously that I am a lecturer in an Art and Design college and if anything I can use that as my material and a case study in one of my classes for my students next time I'm covering the topic of art theft and plagiarism. 

 

Like I said, I did not purposely want to dig so much into this particular entry. But those people who in the face of such clear and blatant copying still shouting that "IT'S NOT COPYING THIS IS NOT PLAGIARISM" made me feel like I have to say/show something to prove my point. There are certain things people feel strongly about, for me this is one of such things where it hits home as a fellow designer. I think it should be talked about more so that people know what actually is art theft/art plagiarism. Artists' rights are often overlooked. I am not attacking the artist. Her entry however just happen to be the case we have on hand here for the discussion of art plagiarism. All the comparison I made are not directed to her, but to the people who failed to see why this is a clear case of art plagiarism. 

 

Everyone can see Blackmoon's hair is similar to Poharan, there's nothing to be said there. But nothing else of that entry was copied from any other existing artwork(s) as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to go out of my way to look for evidence for all 10 entries, like how I did not look for the images for this particular one in the first place. Someone else did, I saw them, I saw the plagiarism, and now I'm trying to raise awareness to this issue. That is all.

As far as blackmoon goes I didn't vote for it cause it looked like an almost direct rip from an outfit that already exists in game to me minus the arms. We already have a recolor of that outfit, why would I want another. I wouldn't go so far as to calling that pure copying, but poor example lol. Original outfit is a pretty close call for me, but I only see the neck and the tie on the front as copied. The rest looks like standard fare you can find thousands of copies for online. Wouldn't call it original, but i'm no expert on art.

 

Also out of curiosity. Say I have a fantasy outfit I found online That I would love to see my character wearing. If I submitted that with a few design changes on something I still drew myself, but I don't stand to make any real profit from (hcoin has no intrinsic value since it's not real currency) is that a crime worthy of having it pulled. I don't see the rules for the competition up anymore so I can;t really see if they had some sort of clause in them about it.

[Kozuki]

I used to try see people going against the last year's winning design Alice in Wonderland for the same reason. In the end, it still won.

 

I believe NCWest doesn't particularly care about this, unless it is a blatantly copy. Like last year also had an outfit removed cuz it was entirely "Save As". The thief just submitted the whole file without even bother to change it. Still got into the final round, though.

 

So, unless NCWest removes Golden Flower out of the list, as long as it has highest votes, it will win. Too bad, it doesn't seem like winning to me, since Phantom Flower is still leading. Maybe the scandal affects people's support on Golden Flower a bit.

 

I don't say I support the idea of copy or heavily reference. However, the playground for artists that NCWest creates encourage this kind of behavior for not being strict enough. I know NCWest is not an art-related company, but if NCWest continues to show the lacking of enthusiasm to manage the contest, you will create a generation of "art-patching" artists.

 

Inb4 such an "artwork" can make into the final round.

 

 

 

 

[YuriKat]

19 hours ago, XO said:

There is nothing original about alice in wonderland costumes. Every variant has been made several times over. 

I wasn't talking about the design in itself but just about the things that were directly traced or copied from other outfits not related to Alice in Wonderland.

The post above is showing an example.

 

It was shown here: 

It's exactly the same as this topic.

They allowed this to happen past year so it's happening again this time. If they do nothing about it, it will happen again next year.

[Kyrrua]

That's the breach guys ! now let's go all copy the work of some artists and submit them to the next context !

and be reassured, if you make it to top 11 its free reward since no elimination for plagiarism when you reach it !

Kappa

[Inugami]

18 hours ago, Raindeavour said:

 

See my response above :) The time used on this is not waste, I can use the materials on my job. Plus, server was down for maintenance, and it took me less than 20 minutes to compile all those images and gifs. 

So it's not okay for her to reference the artwork of others, but it's okay for you to swipe hers and use it for educational purposes for free? Nice. I'm sure she's happy that she's not only being publicly shamed, but will be far into the future as you parade her in front of your students without even asking for her permission.

[Dad]

On 8/2/2017 at 11:15 AM, YuriKat said:

So again, the same story that happened with the winner outfit past year, that was also a blatant rip off of like 2-3 existing and copyrighted designs. Yet it still won.

Can't facepalm hard enough at this.

It just goes to show nobody here can actually draw.

[Dreadomir]

1 hour ago, Inugami said:

So it's not okay for her to reference the artwork of others, but it's okay for you to swipe hers and use it for educational purposes for free? Nice. I'm sure she's happy that she's not only being publicly shamed, but will be far into the future as you parade her in front of your students without even asking for her permission.

Seriously, the poor girl already apologized and admitted her mistake. What else do you guys want, for her to stop drawing once and for all? This is going way too far, and some people need to realize that what they're doing is no different than bullying. Yeah, what she did was wrong but she came forward and admitted that she made a mistake. Raindeavour, it's obvious you mean well, and are trying to educate those here who think it's okay to plagiarize. You're entitled to your own opinion, and can do whatever you want, but be aware that no matter how much effort you put into educating some individuals on here, you're just adding more fuel to the fire, and making this a public spectacle instead. In the end, some people just want to believe what they want and nothing can be done about that. You cannot teach those who are not willing to learn. 

[Diego1234]

Even if the artist took the idea from other games, it is a great work and a beautiful suit. I really want to be able to use a "kimono" kind of suit in the game since we dont have something like that 

[Chikki]

Again, this is not a Witch hunt, nor bullying or anything else. It's in the company's interest that we want proper action to be taken, it doesn't matter WHO the artist is or that they apologized, what matters is that they broke the rules and have to face the consequences. Stop making us look like evil bullies when all we want is people to follow specified guidelines in these type of competitions like everybody else and the respected company to respond in order to avoid such mistakes from the artists and hosts in the future. End of story.

[poisonedOcean]

19 hours ago, Chikki said:

Again, this is not a Witch hunt, nor bullying or anything else. It's in the company's interest that we want proper action to be taken, it doesn't matter WHO the artist is or that they apologized, what matters is that they broke the rules and have to face the consequences. Stop making us look like evil bullies when all we want is people to follow specified guidelines in these type of competitions like everybody else and the respected company to respond in order to avoid such mistakes from the artists and hosts in the future. End of story.

He got a serious point here. For sure.

I mean, it's clearly far from just inspiration... she crossed a line here, ya know.

I have nothing against the artist, neither of us have, I'm certain. AND we can't blame NCWest for not noticing this before... c'mom they're a dozen people there, not a thousand eyes looking for mistakes. WE are a thousand eyes. We the community took note on that plagiarism. Now, the contest's administration must act and state a official position on this matter. In its absence, the official position is "whatever" or "you can shit over the rules and plagiarize how much you can, we don't care".

And for the record, I actually voted for Golden Flower. I really liked it. But again, c'mom, let's face it... let us be honest... it's too much to ignore, guys.

[RevivedTera]

I'm all for the girl continuing to draw and do whatever else she loves. There is however an extremely unethical practice here that needs to be addressed. The entire drawing should be pulled from the contest so that the others who did not copy (no hate on the author her skills are legit) get the credit they are due. I hope next time there's a costume contest this girl beasts it out with something truly fantastic and original and I know she can do it! This time however, it shouldn't even be allowed to get votes if it blatantly breaks the rules. just my 2 cents

[Dreadomir]

I completely agree, this person broke the rules and her entry should be disqualified. I just don't agree with how some are taking it too far by making this a public spectacle. Instead of publicly shaming her, make a petition and show it to NCWest. Include all the evidence, her apology, how you feel, and let them make a final decision. I understand that people are upset, and I don't blame them. Even though it was unintentional, what she did was no different than cheating. I just don't think it's right for everyone to just shut her down like that. I believe she deserves a chance to learn from her mistake, and an opportunity to redeem herself. She clearly has talent, and could blow us away with something truly wonderful next year.

[Syphin]

NCSoft West are not going to do anything even if a petition is submitted to them, they made that perfectly clear with how they handled last years winning submission and how they have structured this years voting system to determine the winning design. Rather than "make" the decision of who wins themselves, they have shifted that "privilege" onto the forums users/player base. If the Golden Flower wins based on the "players" votes, NCSoft West won't likely step in to intervene, they will rather perceive it as if the design is acceptable to the majority of the players, than it is acceptable to us. I honestly just do not trust NCSoft West to handle this matter based on their past actions.

 

With that said, that is why I believe this thread is so relevant, evidence and all. This thread is not meant to be an attack on the artist, instead it serves as a necessary tool needed to educate those casting their vote and wanting to make submissions to the contest in the future. NCSoft West have placed the decision on the players and it is up to us to ensure a design that "deserves" to win, does. I honestly do not want what happened last year to happen again this year. If you refer to the thread Yurikat linked above about last years winning design, on the final page I stated that I wanted the winner to be stripped of their win because I didn't believe that such conduct should be encouraged. In the end, NCSoft West didn't do much and adapted the design into an outfit for Blade & Soul - indirectly supporting the conduct. What I am hoping this thread can achieve is avoiding having a design which supports such questionable conduct win and hopefully prevent such a situation from occurring in next years contest, if there is one.

 

Personally, I would have preferred NCSoft West to step in and remove the submission because as things are, the existence of the Golden Flower in the poll is in a way negatively affecting the voting. I'm sure there are those who are only voting for the certain submissions, particular those with more votes than Golden Flower, to ensure that Golden Flower doesn't win rather than voting for the design they themselves wish to see in the game. Even if I'm not a fan of Phantom Flower, I would vote for it if it meant Golden Flower doesn't win and that realisation is just sad.

 

 

[Raindeavour]

10 hours ago, Inugami said:

So it's not okay for her to reference the artwork of others, but it's okay for you to swipe hers and use it for educational purposes for free? Nice. I'm sure she's happy that she's not only being publicly shamed, but will be far into the future as you parade her in front of your students without even asking for her permission.

If she wants to reference others' work for fun, that's completely fine. If she's copying others' work for a competition that requires  originality, that's not fine.

 

If I'm copying and using her work to create an artwork to call mine, that's not fine. If I'm using her work as an example and crediting her, that's fine. You ever written an academic paper before? Do you know what citation means? When she posted her work online publicly for everyone to see, her work can be used as example with proper citation and credit. Of course, it would be wrong to take her work and claim ownership, or create another artwork copying hers - which isn't what I'm doing. 

 

[Raindeavour]

8 hours ago, Dreadomir said:

Seriously, the poor girl already apologized and admitted her mistake. What else do you guys want, for her to stop drawing once and for all? This is going way too far, and some people need to realize that what they're doing is no different than bullying. Yeah, what she did was wrong but she came forward and admitted that she made a mistake. Raindeavour, it's obvious you mean well, and are trying to educate those here who think it's okay to plagiarize. You're entitled to your own opinion, and can do whatever you want, but be aware that no matter how much effort you put into educating some individuals on here, you're just adding more fuel to the fire, and making this a public spectacle instead. In the end, some people just want to believe what they want and nothing can be done about that. You cannot teach those who are not willing to learn. 

This is an open competition, it is a public spectacle. I feel sorry for the artist to be caught in something like this, but she submitted a copied artwork into an online competition where the public are made juries. Nobody is telling her to stop drawing, she's a talented artist. That is why I and many others here repeated over and over again that her artwork is beautiful, she has so much potential but this is an issue that needs to be addressed by the organizer. If the organizer refused to do anything about it, the public shouldn't be deterred to demand for fairness because it's "immoral" to "bully" (when it's not bullying).

[poisonedOcean]

By the Nine divines sake... guys, there's no attack here, nor hating nor witch-hunt.

Plagiarism IS a serious issue. I can clearly see there are two groups here: there are some teenagers or people who never stepped inside an academic/college class and in the other side those who actually know better that plagiarism IS NOT A MATTER OF POINT OF VIEW. It's a perceivable, concrete fact. And it's no joke. Copying someone's work - be it art or a text, whatever - without a citation or express authorization of the owner can end in a legal prosecution. And beside that, there was previous stated rules to the present art contest; rules those which previously forbid plagiarism.

If someone for some reason brought to the light that there's evidence and proof of plagiarism, it must be treated seriously.

@Raindeavour is not trolling or attacking anyone.

 

[Wataru]

Quote

I completely agree, this person broke the rules and her entry should be disqualified.

And another person wanted her account banned, too. If the costume was like Strictly Business like in todays daily special, nobody would say it was copied from anywhere.