Genzzry

[outdated/old] Crafting Spreadsheet (profit/loss calc)

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Genzzry   

Ahhh... I see your mistake.

 

You are assuming that someone crafting for profit would ignore the higher profits that the material would show, in order to craft something that uses said material to generate a loss.  This is not the case... as the materials selling price (and therefore its PPM) would clearly show that it is better to sell the material (if they have enabled the tab for materials they can craft).  In fact, the only time this MIGHT be an issue is if you decided to ignore the highest PPM (Profit Per Minute) items and craft things that showed a loss (or were so close to 0 PPM that market rates would absorb any profits).

 

That being said, that would be YOUR (human) error... and not the data from spreadsheet.  If you ignore the PPM showing you its better to craft and sell the materials... yes, you may loose money... but then that would be your own fault for deliberately CHOOSING to loose money (maybe in order to level a skill) instead of following what the spreadsheet showed to be the best profits.

 

While leveling my Radiant Ring, I saw a similar situation, but because I was using my spreadsheet... I sold different materials that gave me a profit, bought materials that would have lost me money to craft (because market price was too low for them)... and used them to level my Radiant Ring... while making a profit at every step ;)

 

I then donated about 800 gold (about that, but cant be sure of exact number) to my guild to help with guild crafting, along with loads of soulstones that I'd bought them... because I'd only really wanted to level my skills & test the spreadsheet... not make so much gold from selling the stone, gem pouches & diamonds.

 

 

 

[Edit]

As a sidenote... keys have almost never been profitable to make.

Here is some data (using your poorly researched "argument" of keys as a basis), pulled from the last prices I got before leaving game

 

PPM = Profit Per Minute

(I have also added comments in brackets like this... to try and help you understand the data you are seeing)

 

RADIANT RING

5 Keys PPM -4.031944444 (loss)

10 Keys PPM 1.986111111 (tiny profit, that will most likely be taken by the AH fees... 1.98c per minute)

20 Keys PPM -15.85277778 (large loss)

40 Keys PPM -27.76805556 (large loss)

Polished Marble PPM 17676 (largest profit 1g 76s 76c per minute... showing that making keys would be a stupid idea, if you wanted profits)

Sparkling Hexagonal Gem Pouch PPM 202.2905556 (lower profit than "Polished Marble", but long crafting time and over 100x better than "10 keys")

 

Some materials that COULD have been used for keys, that I could also craft:

STONECUTTERS

Sandstone PPM 6.9

Granite PPM 11.375 (all of these are MUCH higher PPM than keys... so it would be stupid to use them to make keys)

Marble PPM 18.04  (this is the highest profit... MUCH higher profit than keys... but much lower than the Polished Marble you could make with it)

Tumblerock PPM -3.716666667  (Tumblerock market price was below what it would cost to gather... because too many people were gathering it to level their skill)

 

MERRY POTTERS

Premium Lake Mud Refiner PPM -6.875  (loss ... again, crafting this would be stupid)

Premium Earthenware Refiner PPM 20.41944444

Premium Tempered Clay Refiner PPM 35.84444444

Premium Kaolin Refiner PPM 30.93958333  (the above 3 are probably an ok, small gain... if nothing better existed...)

Tempered Bowl PPM 111.24 (of course, this got me over 3x more profit per minute... so crafting the above if wanting just profits would be stupid)

 

In "Merry Potters", I really needed "Premium Tempered Clay Refiner" for my gem pouches, but as you can see... it was much better for me to exploit the market (other players lack of knowledge)... so I sold "Tempered Bowl" in huge bulk orders (making 3x as much money as the "Premium Tempted Clay Refiner" would make)... then just bought the refiner for my crafting, as it cost less than what I was selling.

 

In conclusion... your argument of "If I ignore parts of what the spreadsheet tells me to do... then the spreadsheet is at fault" is invalid.

 

You would be CHOOSING to ignore the results that you'd been given... and CHOOSING to loose money... thats YOUR mistake... not the computers/spreadsheets mistake.  Computers don't make mistakes... people do.  This is precisely why I leave the decisions up to the computer/spreadsheet (dynamic values), instead of hard-coding values and ignoring options like you did (which could be wrong... and in this case, as proved above, shows you were wrong).

 

There are plenty of great (and mediocre) colleges/universities that will teach you logic, math and statistics though... attempting to argue half thought-out, unresearched hypotheses & being corrected in a public forum is probably not the most conductive usage of either our time.  Explaining these (basic) subjects to you is starting to take up too much of my time though, sorry.

 

If you find a genuine bug/error then please feel free to let me know and I will look into/fix it for you... but I can not teach you everything that you do not understand (or understand how to use).  There are educational establishments that can do that far better than me, for a lot more subjects (and some like Coursera are free).

 

 

 

Also:

The reason I chose to craft "Sparkling Hexagonal Gem Pouch" and sell (even though its lower PPM)... was because I was almost single-handedly responsible for lowering the price of "Polished Marble" on my server (and I wanted it to stay high, for huge profits), was already selling "Polished Marble" in HUGE bulk to avoid daily sales limit of AH... and wanted to go play/level my character, instead of just standing near the crafting NPCs, clicking "GIMME MOAR ROCKS!!!  I NEED MOAR MONIES!!!!" every few minutes (I was already extremely rich by the time I switched from only polished marble... to crafting a little then using it for gem crafting).

 

Also, crafting hexagonal gems was helping me level the skill WHILE getting more than enough profit to help my guild with gold, soulstones (that I'd buy them), the occasional diamond... and still giving me time to go level my character & equipment.

 

I spent some of that free time between gem crafts soloing dungeons... to get "Moonwater Tears" for free (as they were quite expensive)... getting leveling XP, increasing my profits by finding my own "Moonwater Tears" instead of buying them... and getting excess "Moonwater Tears" to help the guild with their crafting.

[/Edit]

Edited by Genzzry

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Yndril   

You don't see the issue here, there are multiple recipes that is a loss to craft, but if you tick that you have learned a profession and the intermediate steps are profitable, it will still tick off as a profit even if it is a loss. You shouldn't have to go look at the intermediate steps to find that out, that is not human error, that is false information.

 

You are only interested if the recipe you are crafting right now is bringing any profit, if it is a loss, you don't want to craft it. Your ppm is misleading if you have a profession ticked, as it says you are making a profit out of it when it might actually be a loss. using that same item again, mostly because it's convenient. I've input the prices like they were when it was a loss, crafting orichalcum gives a ppm of 25,45 ticking it as learned and then go to input the price on the repair tools, it now has a ppm 93.92~. 

3 hours ago, Genzzry said:

In fact, the only time this MIGHT be an issue is if you decided to ignore the highest PPM (Profit Per Minute) items and craft things that showed a loss (or were so close to 0 PPM that market rates would absorb any profits).

so, clearly, 93,92 is almost 4 times higher than 25,45, no mistakes there, right? So according to you, there is no fault on the data, it's most definitely more profitable to craft repair tools than to craft orichalcum, so no reason to craft orichalcum... but wait, tick that learned profession off and you have a -7,33 ppm, which is the ACTUAL ppm of this recipe. So according to your statement having joined prospector's union, the ppm spikes up to a whooping 94 which makes it clearly more worth crafting than orichalcum, but if you do not have it learned, it becomes a negative number, infinitely less attractive.

 

Taking your data about keys, ticking off learned skills from your example gives me an accurate ppm, which only means that keys are so horrendously unprofitable to craft that any profit (and loss) combined still can't make up for it. 20 keys as you have them ticked is a -16 ppm, but the actual ppm of it is -55, But an even better example is the 10 keys, since granite is quite profitable at 11ppm and premium earthenware is quite the profit at 19,5, it rippled to the 10 key recipe, you say it is a small profit, but the recipe itself for 10 keys is actually a ppm of -9,5, which means it's a pure loss, a huge one at that (since the crafting time is very long for keys), just not huge enough to entirely negate the profit from granite and premium earthenware. In this case, selling premium earthenware and granite would've given you a lot more money than crafting the keys that your data says is a small profit.

 

The only recipes in radiant ring that was profitable to craft at that point was brilliant and sparkling hexagonal, regular and brilliant triangular and polished granite and marble. 

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Genzzry   

You are wrong... and I have given you data to show how.  I made it a long post... with lots of very easy to follow information and descriptions of what you are doing wrong.

 

I am tired of this "conversation" now... as it is going around in circles.   If you still wish to continue it, then please seek someone who's job it is to teach basic logic, programming or statistics.  They can explain it again to you, and you can argue with a different professional that does this stuff for a living :)

Edited by Genzzry

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Yndril   
1 hour ago, Genzzry said:

You are wrong... and I have given you data to show how.  I made it a long post... with lots of very easy to follow information and descriptions of what you are doing wrong.

 

I am tired of this "conversation" now... if you still wish to continue it, then please seek someone who's job it is to teach basic logic and/or statistics.  They can explain it again to you, and you can argue with a different professional that does this stuff for a living :)

I'm not wrong, I'm using YOUR spreadsheet, that is YOUR data. Your claim is directly tied to that data, and I'm trying to explain to you why your formulas is wrong with hard facts and why that ripple effect is a terrible idea. You're  too stubborn to see that your own formulas is wrong and stick to a disproved claim. You said so yourself, higher ppm is more profitable. According to your faulty spreadsheet, that means that the repair tool in that very REAL example have a much higher ppm than orichalcum, but the reality is that crafting those repair tools is a PURE LOSS. The ONLY reason it shows a profit is because the profit for crafting orichalcum is big, and that you need to craft it 4 times to craft those repair tools. Your spreadsheet does not say anything about multiple gatherings to get enough to craft a recipe, you just add the profit from previous steps into the final step, which gives us that inflated ppm (you don't even consider the time it takes to craft it 4 times to be able to craft the repair tools once)

 

There are more examples where your spreadsheet says that something is giving a profit but it actually is a loss, and there are some examples where it says it's a loss, but it is actually a profit. If an intermediate item is a huge loss but the final product is a profit, you would earn more from buying the intermediate item for the final product. If the intermediate item is such a huge loss that the final product looks unprofitable, your spreadsheet could unjustly say that it is unprofitable, while other recipes that doesn't use that intermediate item but another profitable intermediate item, they could look more profitable. But in reality, the one that YOUR spreadsheet says is a loss, may very well be the most profitable recipe, but you wouldn't see, that, since the intermediate item drag it down. Where your spreadsheet is now I didn't see any profession that currently have that big a gap, but current day prices, it wouldn't be unlikely that the pristine shells are very unprofitable, to the point where the final products using it would be a loss on your sheet, while it actually is a profit.

 

But if you're going to be too stubborn to see what you're doing wrong even after all this, any further attempt to enlighten you is pointless. To the users reading this, put the professions to "no" to get the actual ppm, putting any profession to "yes" is going to give you misleading numbers and may at worst claim that a recipe is profitable while it is actually a loss.

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Genzzry   

Until you are capable of doing anything more than a simple division in your own spreadsheets...

...or ignoring the sale or materials because you dont feel they are relevant when you only want to craft with them (regardless of their PPM), etc...

...or flippping values like "can craft" and "cant craft" mid-argument to create your own errors...

...as the creator of this spreadsheet, I'd advise people ignore you... as you are attempting to advise people on how to use something that you did not create and do not have the knowledge to even understand.

 

You have already tried multiple angles of "attack", proved yourself wrong, been proven wrong by me, etc... and you keep changing your "argument" to a new invalid one every time.


I am now thinking you are a troll (or just REALLY stupid)... you continue to spew inaccurate information where you ignore whatever data you don't like, and decide that something is not profitable if you can create its materials... because if you couldn't create them then the cost would change (or whatever garbage you come up with next).

2 hours ago, Yndril said:

there are multiple recipes that is a loss to craft, but if you tick that you have learned a profession and the intermediate steps are profitable, it will still tick off as a profit even if it is a loss

Stupid stuff like the above... where you call a profit a loss... because the material might be more profitable to sell than the crafted item you make with it.   This does not make the crafted item a loss... it just means that you would gain LESS profit (not loose anything, hence the profit).  It also would mean that you were being a moron, as you could have checked the gathering tab to see this... but you also state:

 

2 hours ago, Yndril said:

You shouldn't have to go look at the intermediate steps to find that out

Well, if you are not going to check the profit/loss calculations... thats you're own fault for acting like an idiot and ignoring what is most profitable (not that you'd loose anything except maybe some time).  The whole point of the spreadsheet is to generate PPM (Profit Per Minute) data... so that you have profit/loss information.   If you are going to ignore the profit/loss calculations because "You shouldn't have to go look"... then don't use a profit/loss calculator!

 

 

Maybe go back to your "spreadsheet" (which you ignore most of the features of... and use as graph paper) and do simple divisions again... it wont hurt your head as much, as it contains no coding or logic for you to get confused with.  Other than that... stop trying to pretend that you have the intelligence/knowledge to advise on how to use something that you can not even comprehend... let alone create or use.

 

Edited by Genzzry

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Yndril   

 

12 minutes ago, Genzzry said:

because the material might be more profitable to sell than to craft X with.   This does not make the crafted item a loss... it just means that you would gain LESS profit (not loose anything, hence the profit)

Selling the material and not craft X would make you end up with more money and you could craft Y instead that gives you more money, but Y have a material that is cheaper to buy than gather, so your ppm says that it is unprofitable since you have that profession too, that material is so much more expensive to gather that crafting Y gives a negative ppm on your sheets while X have a positive ppm. Oh, but it's my fault for not checking the materials to see that the material for X is profitable while the material for Y is not. gathering for X and sell it and buying for Y and craft would give me more money. But nah, according to the ppm of X, that is not true. So let's gather for X and craft X like your spreadsheet says. Oh look, you now have less of a profit from crafting X instead of selling the mats. You now also lost that time which you could've spent to craft Y instead, not getting the profit that would've earned you.

 

I will only say this once again, the ONLY thing you care about when crafting is how much the recipe itself will gain you if you buy the materials, if buying the materials and crafting it will make you lose money, don't craft it, if you can gather/craft the materials for it, sell them instead and buy the materials for something that gives you money instead. Having any of those set to "yes" is pointless since that would make it impossible to see what that recipe itself will get you. and you could lose out on a lot of money because; to your spreadsheet, something that is more worth buying would make a ripple effect which will cause a potential profit look a lot less profitable (the bigger the gap, the further from the truth the spreadsheet will show), while making things that is actually losing you money look more profitable because the gathering/crafting the materials for it is very profitable.

 

Go look up opportunity cost. Complexity doesn't make your spreadsheet right. In this case, you are just over-complicating things to such an extreme that it fails to do what it is supposed to; show the profit or loss of the recipe.

 

You asked for feedback and you got it, do what you want with it. I'm done trying to help you make your spreadsheet better... You haven't even used the custom currency I gave you a while back to make your cluster of numbers more readable and you keep disregarding my explanations and call me stupid among other things... really, trying to help you have felt really unrewarding....

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Haven't had a chance to use the spreadsheet yet, but noticed two crafts I do daily are missing: empyrian charms (earthseers) and violet honey cookie (acquired taste).

 

I'll try to test out the spreadsheet later tonight or tomorrow and maybe have some comments, but without those two crafts it's not entirely practical for me to use.

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Nice spreadsheet but...it will be useless pretty soon. Why? Because crafting is about to get complete overhaul.

Forgekeepers crafting silverfrost transformation stones.

Other cool items to craft from other professions:

 2x 1million experience charms

 brilliant silverfrost keys (I think it's radiant ring)

2x purification jar

Exp soups. If I understood correctly  bonus 300% Exp

And other more useful stuff than now.

P.S all pickaxes,jars,viridian,cinderlands and moonwater transformation stones got removed. Also material's needed for crafting are changed too. So I'm pretty sure that old  crafting materials from viridian,cinderlands and moonwater will be removed and replaced by new ones. 

Those changes are already in Taiwan server....and as you know...things they have soon reaches us. I think it might be changed with dark origins patch or with patch after it...

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Genzzry   

It seems everyone editing the gamepedia wiki has also given-up on B&S... and is no longer updating with the current recipes (https://bladeandsoul.gamepedia.com/Radiant_Ring).

 

Does anyone know of an up to date resource for crafting recipes, or can you only find the recipes now by creating characters with every crafting/gathering skill?

Edited by Genzzry

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Genzzry   

Well, 3.0 patch of Path Of Exile is coming out today... and I wont have enough time (or inclination) to create a bunch of characters on B&S (that I don't play anymore)... just to check their crafting/gathering items... so I guess this spreadsheet is "dead".

 

I will mark it as "outdated" in title.  If anyone that still plays this game wants to grab a copy and update it for people... feel free :)

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