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So i was watching some streams the other night and fell onto one of the top players of EU's channel, there some players were talking about strongest classes, from the view of the top players.

 

Now one of them linked this nice spreadsheet, where a lot of the top pvp'ers, some from each class, were asked to rate the classes in tiers ( S - A - B -C )

 

Here is a link to the sheet.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Bg3R5NJt9mfIkCIQcNy7pu8rSLT4dJBnPKWeUlML00w/edit#gid=0

 

Now this list is very representative of what the general population also think are the strongest and weakest classes, but its interesting, cause for theese guys its not a L2P issue.

 

one thing that got me thinking was this comment from one to the top pvp'ers in the chat "KFM, BM, SF are not bad, they are just not as "good" they lack "something.."

 

I dont know but when i look at the calculation of votes, it is pretty clear to me what the difference between the top and bottom is.

 

All 4 classes at the top have double "tab" tools, while bottom classes are 1 escape classes.

 

Now if you play bns pvp you know that your escape tool is your life, if you watch tournaments you know how much of a fuss the casters make over the tab ability or if it should be used or not.

 

Is it then so strange, that when you give some classes double the escape tools as others, they are gonna stomp them.

 

IMO either remove double escape from classes or bring the gimp classes into the game.

 

If its not "this something" that they miss, what else could it be?

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I recommend that you should go check out what classes were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in world tournament last year. Classes are just a small factors. It depends on the users. 

 

Just check out the champion in the world tournament. He was using SF and had god-like reaction.

 

It is pointless to discuss top class/bottom class. We should talk about top player/bottom player instead.

 

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45 minutes ago, FrozenB said:

I recommend that you should go check out what classes were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in world tournament last year. Classes are just a small factors. It depends on the users. 

 

Just check out the champion in the world tournament. He was using SF and had god-like reaction.

 

It is pointless to discuss top class/bottom class. We should talk about top player/bottom player instead.

 

Classes last year were in a completely different state than they are currently.  SF today is not comparable to SF from last year.  I can agree that player skill contributes to who is considered top PVPer, but I wouldn't trivialize class balance in that equation.  Look at the trend of participants in the KR tournaments this year. If classes truly meant hardly anything, we would probably be seeing a larger variety of team compositions.

Edited by Zekken
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11 hours ago, Vexthal said:

So i was watching some streams the other night and fell onto one of the top players of EU's channel, there some players were talking about strongest classes, from the view of the top players.

 

Now one of them linked this nice spreadsheet, where a lot of the top pvp'ers, some from each class, were asked to rate the classes in tiers ( S - A - B -C )

 

Here is a link to the sheet.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Bg3R5NJt9mfIkCIQcNy7pu8rSLT4dJBnPKWeUlML00w/edit#gid=0

 

Now this list is very representative of what the general population also think are the strongest and weakest classes, but its interesting, cause for theese guys its not a L2P issue.

 

one thing that got me thinking was this comment from one to the top pvp'ers in the chat "KFM, BM, SF are not bad, they are just not as "good" they lack "something.."

 

I dont know but when i look at the calculation of votes, it is pretty clear to me what the difference between the top and bottom is.

 

All 4 classes at the top have double "tab" tools, while bottom classes are 1 escape classes.

 

Now if you play bns pvp you know that your escape tool is your life, if you watch tournaments you know how much of a fuss the casters make over the tab ability or if it should be used or not.

 

Is it then so strange, that when you give some classes double the escape tools as others, they are gonna stomp them.

 

IMO either remove double escape from classes or bring the gimp classes into the game.

 

If its not "this something" that they miss, what else could it be?

So you want to remove something from some classes because you feel it is too strong.  You didn't even list any actual evidence as to why you feel that way other than "these dudes are good at pvp and think they are strong too".  Are the classes that these people perceive as weaker lagging significantly in the rankings?  How about the fact that fm, that they all call S or A tier, has one of the lowest representations in the top 100?

 

If you think balance changes should be made based on feelings, I am glad you aren't making the balance changes.

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Im not a pro pvp player in this game, i just found this interesting discussion in twitch showing an interesting spreadsheet and i thought it was odd that all the classes with double escapes are considered strongest, especially when the game is all about cc and escapes.

 

You dont think its bs that some classes get double escapes? i do but i would be all for all classes having 2 escapes, it would be more interesting in arena for sure, longer fights i would think.

 

FM might be least represented, but the top pvp'ers feel it is very strong apparently, that is why this spreadsheet is golden, its not mr l2p pvp that is rating stuff and its not 1 guy but a lot of top rated players from all the classes and the average tier list you get from that.

 

But anyway the spreadsheet linked, is food for thought and i just think it is interesting that all the double escape classes are considered the strongest.

 

 

Edited by Vexthal
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17 hours ago, Vexthal said:

Im not a pro pvp player in this game, i just found this interesting discussion in twitch showing an interesting spreadsheet and i thought it was odd that all the classes with double escapes are considered strongest, especially when the game is all about cc and escapes.

 

You dont think its bs that some classes get double escapes? i do but i would be all for all classes having 2 escapes, it would be more interesting in arena for sure, longer fights i would think.

 

FM might be least represented, but the top pvp'ers feel it is very strong apparently, that is why this spreadsheet is golden, its not mr l2p pvp that is rating stuff and its not 1 guy but a lot of top rated players from all the classes and the average tier list you get from that.

 

But anyway the spreadsheet linked, is food for thought and i just think it is interesting that all the double escape classes are considered the strongest.

 

 

I don't think it is bs, because all classes have different kits.  FYI KFM, BD, BM all have a second escape, it just only works on grapples, grabs, and phantom grips.  In addition each of those classes has their own strengths that other classes don't.  How imbalanced do you think classes like blade dancer would be if all classes only had one escape?  Huge iframe uptime, high burst, ranged grab, ranged block break, and a no cd skill that gives immunity to all but one form of cc AND IT CAN PARRY THAT FORM OF CC.

 

Classes like destro, bd, fm, and lock would need complete reworks to even be within tolerable margins.  Sin would have to have blue buff removed.  Even then it would still need tweaking.  The classes that can attack while using long duration iframes would be stronger than the classes whose iframes animation lock them.

 

The only thing your suggestion really does imo is change which classes are perceived as S tier.  It doesn't actually correct any balance issues.

5 hours ago, SauronTheGreat said:

 Shocking to see fm at nr : 1.

 I have always had easiest time against that class. Maybe that means their learning curve is the widest and potential is too high ?

FM is a stupidly binary class due to how retarded a decision it was to make chill do what it does.  A skill with no cd that locks other classes out of their movement based skills, roots them in place if too many stacks are applied, and allows for a no cd stun if enough stacks are applied was a poor design decision.  It was even worse that they enabled these stacks to be applied both offensively and defensively and allowed the defensive version near constant uptime.  Then you top it off with the fact that fm has a ton of self healing, a ton of utility, two escapes, range, a full complement of iframes, and is easy for beginners to get into and becomes stronger as their skills improve and you have an absolute monster to balance.  The class's base is simply stupidly strong.  So to balance they either gimp it into oblivion or let it be overpowered.  There isn't really a middle ground for it.

Edited by XianRen
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sure some of the gimp classes have a gimped 2nd escape that doesnt let them escape stuns, which is the important part, they also get other gimped tools as you mention, but theese things apparently arent enough to make them "something"  against the pimped out classes, according to the pros, that made the spreadsheet.

 

BD sure would be a nightmare with 2nd escape and ofc there would have to be tuning to make it work, but imo it would still balance it out way more than it is now, where double escape classes rule gimped classes.

BD's kit is also so overloaded that it almost make it to the top classes without having 2nd escape, which is probably why many think they are op, cause their powers are so strong, they nearly make up for not having 2 escapes.

 

So if its not the 2nd escape that make the top classes better than the bottom ones, what is it then they all are lacking?

Seems to me that it is a clear difference between the top and bottom, but what do you think it is then, that set them apart, what do you deduce from this spreadsheet?

You think its coincidence its all the double escape classes at top? I deffinitely do not :)

Edited by Vexthal
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5 hours ago, XianRen said:

A skill with no cd that locks other classes out of their movement based skills, roots them in place if too many stacks are applied, and allows for a no cd stun if enough stacks are applied was a poor design decision.

And all other classes got more real cc than FM. Some got better resist skills. A cc'ed FM doesnt profit at all from chill stacks. Chill is a bad cc (if we really want to call it cc). You can do aircombos while having chill stacks (even while frozen BD, BM, SIN do their fast movements in midair, logic?). You can 100-0 while being frozen. You can ss out of freeze every some seconds. Also many many skills remove freeze if not chill, too. You make it sound like FM would be untouchable and can stunlock you the whole day without effort.

5 hours ago, XianRen said:

fm has a ton of self healing

Is that so? You still playing with the skill patch from 1 year ago?

5 hours ago, XianRen said:

and is easy for beginners to get into

Yeah, like the Hm12+ people who cant even maintain burn. Most people cant even tank almost non moving bosses. How many topics exist on the internet about FM being weak or hard in PVP? All these people must be idiots because they cant play this op class, right?

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On ‎21‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 1:53 PM, Zekken said:

Classes last year were in a completely different state than they are currently.  SF today is not comparable to SF from last year.  I can agree that player skill contributes to who is considered top PVPer, but I wouldn't trivialize class balance in that equation.  Look at the trend of participants in the KR tournaments this year. If classes truly meant hardly anything, we would probably be seeing a larger variety of team compositions.

you mean SF got nerfed?

 

from what I saw in arena, SF is actually buffed. Also, in last year tournament, their skills were the same as what we have now.

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7 hours ago, Zedonia said:

And all other classes got more real cc than FM. Some got better resist skills. A cc'ed FM doesnt profit at all from chill stacks. Chill is a bad cc (if we really want to call it cc). You can do aircombos while having chill stacks (even while frozen BD, BM, SIN do their fast movements in midair, logic?). You can 100-0 while being frozen. You can ss out of freeze every some seconds. Also many many skills remove freeze if not chill, too. You make it sound like FM would be untouchable and can stunlock you the whole day without effort.

Is that so? You still playing with the skill patch from 1 year ago?

Yeah, like the Hm12+ people who cant even maintain burn. Most people cant even tank almost non moving bosses. How many topics exist on the internet about FM being weak or hard in PVP? All these people must be idiots because they cant play this op class, right?

I think you should actually read what I said before popping off.  I specifically said in an earlier post that fm is having a hard time in rankings earlier.  I also never said it was OP in the post you are so enthusiastically going through without properly reading it.  I said it was BINARY.  In it's current form it is not a balancable class.  If you buff it a little it becomes stupidly strong, if you nerf it a little it becomes atrociously weak.  

 

9 hours ago, Vexthal said:

sure some of the gimp classes have a gimped 2nd escape that doesnt let them escape stuns, which is the important part, they also get other gimped tools as you mention, but theese things apparently arent enough to make them "something"  against the pimped out classes, according to the pros, that made the spreadsheet.

 

BD sure would be a nightmare with 2nd escape and ofc there would have to be tuning to make it work, but imo it would still balance it out way more than it is now, where double escape classes rule gimped classes.

BD's kit is also so overloaded that it almost make it to the top classes without having 2nd escape, which is probably why many think they are op, cause their powers are so strong, they nearly make up for not having 2 escapes.

 

So if its not the 2nd escape that make the top classes better than the bottom ones, what is it then they all are lacking?

Seems to me that it is a clear difference between the top and bottom, but what do you think it is then, that set them apart, what do you deduce from this spreadsheet?

You think its coincidence its all the double escape classes at top? I deffinitely do not :)

I don't think anything of the spreadsheet.  It is at best anecdotal evidence.  There is 0 hard data to back it up, and I see a bunch of idiots calling FM S tier despite FM getting stomped in the rankings board in every region.  ACTUAL FACTS don't support the argument that FM is S tier. This is a core part of your entire argument and it is factually incorrect.  Blade Dancer, with it's one escape, and BM, with it's one escape are doing way better in the rankings than FM with it's two escapes.  It's as stupid as the WL that said WL was weak after the EU tourney.

 

 

Edited by XianRen
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8 hours ago, XianRen said:

I don't think anything of the spreadsheet.  It is at best anecdotal evidence.  There is 0 hard data to back it up, and I see a bunch of idiots calling FM S tier despite FM getting stomped in the rankings board in every region.  ACTUAL FACTS don't support the argument that FM is S tier. This is a core part of your entire argument and it is factually incorrect.  Blade Dancer, with it's one escape, and BM, with it's one escape are doing way better in the rankings than FM with it's two escapes.  It's as stupid as the WL that said WL was weak after the EU tourney.

 

 

The wl you're talking about, Areaz was trolling hard when saying that.(Everybody understood the meme) He hates wl and wants it nerfed, he just plays it cuz its stupidly strong and because hes able to get money from the tourny(He even made a song on how much WL is stupid with empathy). Same with Tenah they just play it cuz its no brain but hes able to win easily in the tourny thanks to that.(He keeps repeating it on stream).

 

That being said, yeah people are saying FM is top tier yet theres not so much good FM, and seems like those "rare" good fm stomp the other just because they are themselves strong and know how to play their strong-but-hard-as-hell-to-master class.

On one hand "hey fm is top tier but they always lose in rankings and tourny"

on the other hand "hey wl is top tier and they have a very good ranking and are much appreciated in 3v3 (cuz untabbale combo rulz).

 

We're getting nowhere, except being sure that wl is stupidly strong and easy to play. BD and sum (and DES to some extent) are easy to play as well.

Then comes the other classes who are all difficult or hard to master.

the one tab or double tab has nothing to do here, since every gameplay is not the same.

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14 hours ago, FrozenB said:

you mean SF got nerfed?

 

from what I saw in arena, SF is actually buffed. Also, in last year tournament, their skills were the same as what we have now.

Yes, SF got nerfed when they split up the skills based on element.  They took away defense seal from Iron Shoulder and since the skills are split up by element, there are a few skills that SFs used to use with a mixed elemental build that they cannot use anymore.

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On 7/22/2017 at 7:10 PM, XianRen said:

 

FM is a stupidly binary class due to how retarded a decision it was to make chill do what it does.  A skill with no cd that locks other classes out of their movement based skills, roots them in place if too many stacks are applied, and allows for a no cd stun if enough stacks are applied was a poor design decision.  It was even worse that they enabled these stacks to be applied both offensively and defensively and allowed the defensive version near constant uptime.  Then you top it off with the fact that fm has a ton of self healing, a ton of utility, two escapes, range, a full complement of iframes, and is easy for beginners to get into and becomes stronger as their skills improve and you have an absolute monster to balance.  The class's base is simply stupidly strong.  So to balance they either gimp it into oblivion or let it be overpowered.  There isn't really a middle ground for it.

 I still don't think they have a real finisher. I can let them beat me up whole match, but in the end i still win and i always find a way to get out of their offensive combos, too much breathing room fighting against one compared to other classes where you are literally dead in one cc-lock that's initiated out of nowhere. Maybe i've never faced any decent one ? I try watching some official tournaments and sometimes rarely see one in a duel-master match at arena ... still never seen any fm win, even once.

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9 hours ago, Zekken said:

Yes, SF got nerfed when they split up the skills based on element.  They took away defense seal from Iron Shoulder and since the skills are split up by element, there are a few skills that SFs used to use with a mixed elemental build that they cannot use anymore.

Every class is the same as SF. Some of their skills got taken away and some skills got revamp. The main issue here is that last year world champion was using the same skills as we have right now. So, it is not about the class, it is about the players' ability.

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idk what is that spreadsheet for but if you want top classes just go to ranking right now and see how often you see the same class in top 100
I can already tell you that if you are going to make tally chart it will be
sum wl lbd fm des sin bm kfm

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13 hours ago, FrozenB said:

Every class is the same as SF. Some of their skills got taken away and some skills got revamp. The main issue here is that last year world champion was using the same skills as we have right now. So, it is not about the class, it is about the players' ability.

You are incorrect. The skill patch to split elemental skills was after SK Kim won Worlds with SF. I think Worlds was roughly Nov 2016 and skill system revamp was Dec 2016. Go back and watch the 2016 finals; SK Kim uses burning tundra and king's fist in the same match.  With the current skill patch, using those two skills in the same match is impossible unless you stop mid fight and change from ice build to earth build.

Edited by Zekken
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Being an Soulfighter I can say I agree. Great class for the, group or solo but PvP is a pain. Defenitely do not have the resists and escapes like other classes do. I'm always the first target in 6 vs 6 too, guess everyone believes sf is the easy prey.

I can see Force Master being high on that list,  for starters I would say it's probably one of the most played classes. As a sf, getting chilled and frozen constantly is a pain. For fm it seems that frost armor/ sheath is pretty spammable.  It's to the point in 6 vs 6 most don't even use PvP gear. Just get Raven and put all points into offense and just use frost armor/ sheath when in doubt. 

Back to sf, I would like to use my iframes without needing a target. That would do wonders, especially when constantly frozen. The class just needs some anti cc besides self defense chi. 

Maybe fms frost armor/ sheath can use a longer CD or something. It's basically if they don't get ganked, they don't die. ( unless they severely under geared ofc)

Edited by Justgreencorn
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/31/2017 at 7:26 PM, Justgreencorn said:

Being an Soulfighter I can say I agree. Great class for the, group or solo but PvP is a pain. Defenitely do not have the resists and escapes like other classes do. I'm always the first target in 6 vs 6 too, guess everyone believes sf is the easy prey.

I can see Force Master being high on that list,  for starters I would say it's probably one of the most played classes. As a sf, getting chilled and frozen constantly is a pain. For fm it seems that frost armor/ sheath is pretty spammable.  It's to the point in 6 vs 6 most don't even use PvP gear. Just get Raven and put all points into offense and just use frost armor/ sheath when in doubt. 

Back to sf, I would like to use my iframes without needing a target. That would do wonders, especially when constantly frozen. The class just needs some anti cc besides self defense chi. 

Maybe fms frost armor/ sheath can use a longer CD or something. It's basically if they don't get ganked, they don't die. ( unless they severely under geared ofc)

SF is strong if you have good ping and know what you are doing. Also, it requires fast reponse/reflex. Last year world champion was a sf user from korea.

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The fact that some classes have 2 escapes means as a class with a single escape you might lose even if you outplay them at every step.

Some players rotate their 2 escapes so they use 3 escapes one after the other by the time which you simply run out of cc's to use on them.

As a kfm i feel like the absolute single most pathethic class in the game atm because of this

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On 01.08.2017 at 5:26 AM, Justgreencorn said:

I can see Force Master being high on that list,  for starters I would say it's probably one of the most played classes. As a sf, getting chilled and frozen constantly is a pain.

HM counter helps a bit. Sometimes a lot (if FM is dumb enough to spam). But if you don't have it or can't use it in time, you are dead vs FM because of damn freeze. And you can't free yourself because Q and E need target while that ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ stays somewhere out of sight. So HM counter is our last and only hope vs FM.

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