Proposal for balancing the classes in the game.

[ARC-1276]

Classes in need of reworking: Assassin, Summoner, Blade Master, Blade Dancer, Destroyer, Kung Fu Master. (Reworking can also mean buffing).

 

Classes that do not need reworking: Force Master, Soul Fighter.

 

So after the recent patch, it's became pretty clear that FM is now in a better place than before, and probably shouldn't be touched. However, there's a few classes that are either over powered, or under powered.

 

Over powered:

Assassin

Summoner

Blade Dancer

Kung Fu Master

Blade Master (just a bit or by a lot)

 

So the following solutions I'm proposing for assassin are:

Removing the RNG evade completely. Removing it all together without a replacement mechanic merely because it's just stupid. Failing to cast a certain skill as an assassin will grant a temporary RNG evade stat that basically acts as a fail safe for THE PLAYER'S FAILURE. That and if they fail to counter, they still have an iframe ability with a 30 second CD, but that's fair. However, what isn't fair is their side step, Q. The skill allows them to go behind you from almost 10 meters away in extreme cases, and not only that, but if you hit them during this long iframe, they go straight into stealth. This basically making them a nightmare to hit in the first place. That and they have two iframes outside of that and zero down time on their lotus of escape. Meaning if you force tab them once, they'll be able to keep on going without fear as long as that lotus is up. Even then, it has a duration of twenty seconds which gives the assassin more than enough time to wait for the CD of their tab. Now as for the real issue with assassins, and by extension Kung Fu Masters, is the fact that they're allowed to use Fighting Spirit in the Arena (other wise called Blue Buff).

 

The solution for that is simple: add a status effect in the arena that prevents players from receiving the buff. This punishes the player who wants to scum his way to victory, and forces them to learn how to PVP properly. 

 

Summoner: make the cat sit have a 36 second cooldown time. Summoners are more than capable of forcing their opponents to waste their escape and can easily dish out insane punishment without it anyway.

 

Blade Dancer:

Now this class has never been nerfed since the game's release. That is until recent when they made it so BD can't just flashstep their way to victory like before. But honestly, that's not a nerf, it's more like, fixing. However, what is broken is how forgiving the class is, just like assassins. They get no more than six iframes, their Q and E, their backstep, their 15% regeneration, Maelstorm, and their V ability when the specialize it. But it's not just the quantity of the iframes that's the concern here, it's the quality. Like I said, one of these provides a 15% health regeneration and a full focus recovery. On top of that, they get five seconds of resistance along with five hits to resist. In those five seconds, a Blade Dancer can easily turn the tide of any battle, and if that alone doesn't save the Blade Dancer, they've also got another three seconds of resistance thanks to Maelstorm so that they can try again or keep going. Not just that, but as seen with a lot of other classes, it becomes very easy for them to run off to the other side of the map to wait for their cool downs to finish up and end anyone in their way.

 

It's no long a matter of their parry, their damage, or their grip, it's now a matter of making it so they have to be more careful about how they fight. As of right now, they have the least amount of risk of dying to anything at all. Maybe destroyers might be a good counter to them, but that takes a great deal of craft to pull off. What needs to be done is for Blade Dancer to have to choose whether or not it wants Maelstorm or not, and the best way I can think to do it is to make it unavailable for their parry spin, or perhaps make it require more focus to use. 

 

Kung Fu Master:

Where do I even begin with this one? Asides having the most broken counter systems in the game, this class is a close second to Blade Dancer and Soul Fighter in the iframe department. Not only do they have five iframes to work with, one of them freezing people every 24 seconds, but the amount of punishment they can unleash with those iframes is astounding. Now KFM does have the option of turning their C (Flurry) into an iframe so that they can fool some unlucky player into getting themselves stunned, but Q and E is by far the best iframe in the whole of the game. Their Q and E is on top of everyone else's with the ability to resist even one second after it's been cast. In a game where every second matters, this one second of extra resistance can and will turn the tide of any battle or seal the fate of anyone unfortunate enough to hit into it. After that, they get a long airborne combo that can and will remove about 40% of the opposing player's health. Even then, their animation cancel will kill anything if they're using a macro or trying to run the risk of carpel tunnel. My suggestion would be to remove that one extra second of resist that Kung Fu Masters get from their Q and E abilities, along with that, changing the amount of time they resist from their counters from 2 to 1 second. Basically: make it so they can only resist during the animation of Q and E, and make it so they can't resist as long if they land a successful counter. 

 

Blade Master: This one is simple, because it's a matter of damage output with the fire build. Yes, the fire build is still too much. However, what's really painful here is how easy it is to 100-0 most classes as a Blade Master. Anything with one escape is basically dead, it's only a matter of time. But anything with two escapes can easily be dealt with, as the Blade Master has two easy ways of forcing someone to use their escape: Soaring Falcon, and Flock of Blades rush. Both having a one minute cool down time, but both being extremely devastating. Regardless of whether of not you use your tab when Blade Master hit Soaring Falcon, you can expect a good chunk of your health to go away when they follow up with something else to hurt you with. Now, I'm not saying we need to change their ability to force people's escape skills, that would be overkill. What we do need, is for them to stop being so damaging. Just simply nerfing the Blade Master's damage by making Dragon tongue and Flicker alternate positions on the keyboard, or giving dragon tongue a one second CD or cast time, will make it so that the Blade Master's immense damage output will be slowed down so that it's not an instant kill.

 

 

 

If you agree, let me know. And if you have any other suggestions, please feel free to comment.

[AriShadow2]

BD is top class, deal with it...

[nonistaicho]

On 7/25/2017 at 9:56 AM, AriShadow2 said:

BD is top class, deal with it...

although you are definitely a BD player yourself, I feel that the above statements are entirely true and this should be looked into...too many people have quit their main character, whatever that was, and just created a BD instead because of it being just way overpowered.

 

I am a force master and since the day i started playing, all ive seen is skills being removed from my class while others have had dozens of resists and iframes added.

 

Going in arena now - it's me vs BD 20 fights out of 21. It's not right.

 

Thank you devs for taking into account what OP said above.

 

Good day

[Chara Dreemurr]

On 7/28/2017 at 10:13 AM, nonistaicho said:

although you are definitely a BD player yourself, I feel that the above statements are entirely true and this should be looked into...too many people have quit their main character, whatever that was, and just created a BD instead because of it being just way overpowered.

 

I am a force master and since the day i started playing, all ive seen is skills being removed from my class while others have had dozens of resists and iframes added.

 

Going in arena now - it's me vs BD 20 fights out of 21. It's not right.

 

Thank you devs for taking into account what OP said above.

 

Good day

Please don't listen to AriShadow, he likes to hate on BD on every chance he gets to the point where I wonder if he's just trolling.

The truth is that this class is strong at low and medium rating, where people don't know to exploit their weaknesses like:
*spin doing  AoE multiple hits which can trigger counters
*spin being vulnerable to KDs
*spin costing 2 focus out of 10 so it can be cast of a total of 5 times conscutively
*spin being on the same key as the hard CC escape (so if BD just keeps spinning just KD and there's a big chance he'll use escape by mistake)
*not being able to do a lot of damage without lightning draw (36s CD) or MOST of their skills off cooldown
*their 2 stuns also being approach skills (so if you get the block approach skills debuff, you can't use either stun)
*having a SINGLE hard CC escape

They also do mistakes like:
*not going aggressive after the BD uses their ONE hard CC escape
*not iframing their soaring falcon (18s CD) and giving the BD the focus regen buff + getting KDed
*not using the grab skill counter or sometimes not even countering grab -> soul stab (easiest grab counter in the game)
*keep wasting stuns and dazes into spin
*continously hitting the 0.5s parry with a 0.5 window of non-parry

Once you get to a higher level and people start abusing these weaknesses, BD becomes a lot weaker and harder to play.
Also you said you're a FM. Your class has tons of survivability with its 2 hard CC escapes, ice orbits chilling (blocking approaches) and eventually freezing (on 3 stacks) people who hit you, being able to easily escape grab if the enemy gets frozen, pretty much a frontal iframe with impact which resists everything except AoE CCs, the tab self freeze and the frost sheath on V. Also your Q/E iframes have the same CD as BD Q/E. Plus it's hard to punish your main counter (impact) since the HM version has parry penetration and doesn't cost any focus.
A BD should have a hard time vs FM since its 2 stuns are unavailable most of the time (because of chill) you can grab and Q/E to avoid their KB grab escape, and once they don't have it you can grab -> freeze -> impact combo, or you can use frost burst on Z when they don't have an iframe on and not care about their spin parry and CC resists. You can also use your frost tornado on X to disable their spin for a few seconds. Even if a BD does catch you in a lightning draw combo, you have 2 stun escapes so it shouldn't be a problem.
There are a lot more things to say about this matchup but it would take a long time to explain most of them.

The fact that ARC-1276 didn't mention WL and thinks FM is fine with its insane survivability tells me he didn't play much against people who knew what they were doing. WL is super bad at low level because people don't do aerials, but once you get to mid and high level you see how broken WL is right now (unescapable air launch aka leech -> thrall stun -> air launch + 70% HP damage in one aerial + the Time Distortion 3 CD resets on most skills, including escape). Remember that you cannot use any escape in an aerial so this is guaranteed damage.
Also, when he's talking about assassin lotus of escape being on a 30s CD, it gets an additional 15s CD if it's used to escape from a CC and also can't be used to escape from KD, The blue buff nerf would destroy it in pvp because you already give up a defensive skill if you use it (lotus of escape for sins and ice for KFMs). If someone's relying on blue buff, they won't get far anyway because it may take you by surprise the first round and grant them a win, but it shouldn't work twice in a row because you don't use your escape until they use blue buff (1.5 minutes cooldown). If you don't know how or cannot do this it means that you're the one who doesn't know how to "pvp properly".
I agree that fire BM needs to have a harder time cheesing you with dragontongue, but I don't think it's a good idea to reduce the damage. A better way would be reducing the number of ways they can gain the conflagration buff. This would mean that they won't actually use DT to take 40-50% of your HP and after you use your escape, they can just gain conflagration buff again and finish you for good. The damage on DT is fine, it's the fact that it's available too much that's too strong imo.

Finally, please remember that when you're complaining about classes with ONE hard escape having too many iframes/counters, taking away or nerfing some of those iframes and counters would turn them into garbage because they would be at an insanely big disadvantage vs classes with 2 hard CC escapes.

[XianRen]

7 hours ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

Please don't listen to AriShadow, he likes to hate on BD on every chance he gets to the point where I wonder if he's just trolling.

The truth is that this class is strong at low and medium rating, where people don't know to exploit their weaknesses like:
*spin doing  AoE multiple hits which can trigger counters
*spin being vulnerable to KDs
*spin costing 2 focus out of 10 so it can be cast of a total of 5 times conscutively
*spin being on the same key as the hard CC escape (so if BD just keeps spinning just KD and there's a big chance he'll use escape by mistake)
*not being able to do a lot of damage without lightning draw (36s CD) or MOST of their skills off cooldown
*their 2 stuns also being approach skills (so if you get the block approach skills debuff, you can't use either stun)
*having a SINGLE hard CC escape

They also do mistakes like:
*not going aggressive after the BD uses their ONE hard CC escape
*not iframing their soaring falcon (18s CD) and giving the BD the focus regen buff + getting KDed
*not using the grab skill counter or sometimes not even countering grab -> soul stab (easiest grab counter in the game)
*keep wasting stuns and dazes into spin
*continously hitting the 0.5s parry with a 0.5 window of non-parry
at an insanely big disadvantage vs classes with 2 hard CC escapes.

The focus issue is null unless the other party NEVER gets hit by soaring falcon (focus regen add unblockable knockdown opener on a 9s cd.  BD's weakess to block approach is also not that big a weakness as they have THREE knockdowns and BD is insanely strong against grounded targets due to def/parry piercing sunder, ground defense break, phantom grip, etc.  Spin's "weakness to counters" is offset by the fact that many classes have counters that apply cc that a spinning BD is immune to in the first place.  Spin being vulnerable to knockdowns shouldn't even be called a weakness, it is the ONE THING that they aren't immune to and they can still parry that one thing if your timing is off even a little.  More than a weakness it is the only counterplay a lot of people even have.  BDs can still initiate a strong burst combo without LD using the aforementioned ground game, lightning draw is just a very strong icing on the cake. The biggest weakness bd has to exploit is their single escape.  That's it.  They really don't have anything else.  In addition they somewhat offset that weakness with their high amount of iframe uptime.  Especially since two of their iframes don't animation lock you, so they can do damage while invulnerable or run and play for time.  Because it is unique to bd on melee classes, let's also point out they have THREE ranged skills that ignore block/counter (Phantom Grip Soaring Falcon, Blitzblade) all of which are effective combo openers.

 

Saying BD "gets harder at the higher levels" is silly.  Everything gets harder at the highest levels and yet BD is very well represented in the top 100 and top 50.  I can't really accurately protray my feelings re: BD, but I think their risk/reward balance is way out of line.  BDs don;t have to take on much risk when they take shots at dealing damage to opponents but their damage once they catch you is extremely strong.  I personally would rework spin on both BD and Destro into a proper counter/block type skill as spin is, by design, stupidly broken in a pvp game entirely designed around cc combos and cc avoidance.

[Kyrrua]

Hope you realize nothing you suggested will be taken into account.

Not to mention the devs we're talking about are the Korean devs who decides everything.

 

All we can do is cry out loud when something is stupidly really not right (gem fees), other than that they will probably tell you "its our game we know better than you" ("you think you do, but you don't" WoW meme kappa).

Or worse, they will just don't know that you exist.

 

But hey, at least you tried like everyone else. And you will fail like everyone else.

[AriShadow2]

In my opinion, it is my opinion you may agree or dont agree with it.

 

BD is most OP + most easy class in game.

[Chara Dreemurr]

17 hours ago, XianRen said:

The focus issue is null unless the other party NEVER gets hit by soaring falcon (focus regen add unblockable knockdown opener on a 9s cd. 

 

Soaring falcon is on an 18s cooldown after the skill rework.

 

17 hours ago, XianRen said:

 BD's weakess to block approach is also not that big a weakness as they have THREE knockdowns and BD is insanely strong against grounded targets due to def/parry piercing sunder, ground defense break, phantom grip, etc.

The parry/defense penetrating Sunder is a waste in arena. You can do around 2 Sunders during the 0.7s an enemy has ground counter on. The BD ground counter break is terrible with its long animation (if you don't use it at the same time your opponent uses ground counter, it's wasted because the counter is over by the time your long animation is done). A way for BDs to get rid of ground counter is to spin then tech-chase the triggered ground counter but you need another CC to follow up with. If you're talking about the phantom grip KD then that is easily counterable with phantom grip counter, the daze is harder to counter but it's just 2s (you can Q/E -> 2 x RMB -> air launch F, and that's only if you have good ping). BD is good against grounded target but you can't say it's easy to pull off.

 

 

18 hours ago, XianRen said:

Spin's "weakness to counters" is offset by the fact that many classes have counters that apply cc that a spinning BD is immune to in the first place.

Let's see how the spin can be punished when countered/blocked/iframed for different classes:
>BM: block -> cyclone, which creates an opening for CC
>KFM: counter -> iron shoulder, OR Q/E resist -> KD (either 3 or SS -> LMB) -> triple kick stun
>SIN & SUM: counter when BD spins -> stealth
>FM: just impact to gain distance (it's not that strong but it doesn't need to be for FM)
>WL: block -> F knockup
>SF: resist spin -> howling blast KD (F), OR HM counter and get free 1.5s iframe
*DES and BD don't have any beneficial effects from countering/resisting spin other than focus regen if they spin too
*Let me clarify, Impact is strong. It's just not doing much vs spin.

 

18 hours ago, XianRen said:

Spin being vulnerable to knockdowns shouldn't even be called a weakness, it is the ONE THING that they aren't immune to and they can still parry that one thing if your timing is off even a little.  More than a weakness it is the only counterplay a lot of people even have.

I forgot to mention knockups and pulls, but not many classes have knockups without preconditions. There are classes like KFM, FM, SUM, WL which can KD without having trouble with the parry. Not mentioning SF which has parry pen on every KD and SIN which has landmine for parry pen KD + turning leaf which also penetrates parry. BD parry spin is a very 2-sided defence, which turns out to be weaker vs good players than normal block/counter. If someone hits into it during the 0.5s window, they get stunned for 2s, however many skills that stop your spin simply ignore parry altogether. And don't forget that you can only use it 5 times before you run out of focus.

 

 

18 hours ago, XianRen said:

The biggest weakness bd has to exploit is their single escape.  That's it.  They really don't have anything else.  In addition they somewhat offset that weakness with their high amount of iframe uptime.  Especially since two of their iframes don't animation lock you, so they can do damage while invulnerable or run and play for time.

If they lacked these iframes they would be garbage because of their single escape and how easy it is to deal with their spin. We're talking about a class whose defense is easily cancelled by skills that penetrate that defense. Most classes have a parry pen KD, pull, or some other way to get rid of spin. If you can't cancel the parry yourself then just starve them of focus.

If you want to remove those iframes, this can go several ways:
>give BD parry for the full duration of spin but no CC immunity (which would either be stupidly OP or stupidly weak depending on who it faces)
>give BD 2 escapes (simply because parry for 0.5s as the only defense is not enough)
>remove spin altogether in favor of a true spammable block/counter (it has to be spammable if you don't have a high number of iframes)
 

 

18 hours ago, XianRen said:

 Because it is unique to bd on melee classes, let's also point out they have THREE ranged skills that ignore block/counter (Phantom Grip Soaring Falcon, Blitzblade) all of which are effective combo openers.

Phantom grip is strong, but it has a 24s CD and the possibility of getting countered (unless you use X KB or just let it end and follow with another CC).
Soaring falcon animation isn't the fastest (definitely slower than BM stun/daze soaring falcon pull) and can be iframed if you expect them to use it.
Blitzblade can be baited to hit into party decoy or enhanced seed shroud or simply iframed which is a waste. Another thing worth mentionting is that if BD has Maelstrom available, it can't use blitzblade while it's spinning because Maelstrom has priority on F. So if you see the stop spinning while you're blocking/contering and they haven't used maelstrom it means they're about to use blitzblade.

 

18 hours ago, XianRen said:

Saying BD "gets harder at the higher levels" is silly.  Everything gets harder at the highest levels and yet BD is very well represented in the top 100 and top 50. 

There are 15 BDs in top 100 (7 in top 50) on EU 1v1 at the time of this post. But since we have no idea how many people play each class in PvP, this may not be a very solid argument, unless one class is overwhelmingly represented.

 

18 hours ago, XianRen said:

 I can't really accurately protray my feelings re: BD, but I think their risk/reward balance is way out of line.  BDs don;t have to take on much risk when they take shots at dealing damage to opponents but their damage once they catch you is extremely strong.

Like all classes, they have to tech-chase and use CCs when dealing damage so it's not as easy as "once they catch you". Yes, they do damage when they lock you in CCs but it's not "extremely strong".

The "extremely strong" damage you're talking about is just lightning draw which is high-risk, high-reward because if you somehow miss your chance of using it properly (miss a tech-chase, get countered, etc), your opponent will definitely have his escape(s) by the time you have it available again.

 

18 hours ago, XianRen said:

I personally would rework spin on both BD and Destro into a proper counter/block type skill as spin is, by design, stupidly broken in a pvp game entirely designed around cc combos and cc avoidance.

I somewhat agree with reworking spin, but not for the same reasons. BD does get harder at higher level more so than other classes because of how easy it is to play around their spin. Getting another sort of counter, maybe KFM-like would definitely be better + other changes for balance.

[Quantum]

49 minutes ago, Chara Dreemurr said:

The parry/defense penetrating Sunder is a waste in arena. You can do around 2 Sunders during the 0.7s an enemy has ground counter on.

I wouldn't really call it a waste because it surely baits out ground counters, then you can proceed to cc again right after.

19 hours ago, XianRen said:

Spin's "weakness to counters" is offset by the fact that many classes have counters that apply cc that a spinning BD is immune to in the first place.  Spin being vulnerable to knockdowns shouldn't even be called a weakness, it is the ONE THING that they aren't immune to and they can still parry that one thing if your timing is off even a little.  

You're forgetting that pull cc's ignores their spin's stun or daze immunity. Their spin is also not immune to knock ups.

[ARC-1276]

On 7/29/2017 at 2:52 AM, Chara Dreemurr said:

Once you get to a higher level and people start abusing these weaknesses, BD becomes a lot weaker and harder to play.
Also you said you're a FM. Your class has tons of survivability with its 2 hard CC escapes, ice orbits chilling (blocking approaches) and eventually freezing (on 3 stacks) people who hit you, being able to easily escape grab if the enemy gets frozen, pretty much a frontal iframe with impact which resists everything except AoE CCs, the tab self freeze and the frost sheath on V. Also your Q/E iframes have the same CD as BD Q/E. Plus it's hard to punish your main counter (impact) since the HM version has parry penetration and doesn't cost any focus.
A BD should have a hard time vs FM since its 2 stuns are unavailable most of the time (because of chill) you can grab and Q/E to avoid their KB grab escape, and once they don't have it you can grab -> freeze -> impact combo, or you can use frost burst on Z when they don't have an iframe on and not care about their spin parry and CC resists. You can also use your frost tornado on X to disable their spin for a few seconds. Even if a BD does catch you in a lightning draw combo, you have 2 stun escapes so it shouldn't be a problem.
There are a lot more things to say about this matchup but it would take a long time to explain most of them.

The fact that ARC-1276 didn't mention WL and thinks FM is fine with its insane survivability tells me he didn't play much against people who knew what they were doing. WL is super bad at low level because people don't do aerials, but once you get to mid and high level you see how broken WL is right now (unescapable air launch aka leech -> thrall stun -> air launch + 70% HP damage in one aerial + the Time Distortion 3 CD resets on most skills, including escape). Remember that you cannot use any escape in an aerial so this is guaranteed damage.
Also, when he's talking about assassin lotus of escape being on a 30s CD, it gets an additional 15s CD if it's used to escape from a CC and also can't be used to escape from KD, The blue buff nerf would destroy it in pvp because you already give up a defensive skill if you use it (lotus of escape for sins and ice for KFMs). If someone's relying on blue buff, they won't get far anyway because it may take you by surprise the first round and grant them a win, but it shouldn't work twice in a row because you don't use your escape until they use blue buff (1.5 minutes cooldown). If you don't know how or cannot do this it means that you're the one who doesn't know how to "pvp properly".
I agree that fire BM needs to have a harder time cheesing you with dragontongue, but I don't think it's a good idea to reduce the damage. A better way would be reducing the number of ways they can gain the conflagration buff. This would mean that they won't actually use DT to take 40-50% of your HP and after you use your escape, they can just gain conflagration buff again and finish you for good. The damage on DT is fine, it's the fact that it's available too much that's too strong imo.

Finally, please remember that when you're complaining about classes with ONE hard escape having too many iframes/counters, taking away or nerfing some of those iframes and counters would turn them into garbage because they would be at an insanely big disadvantage vs classes with 2 hard CC escapes.

BDs have two escapes against FM, one for grab and one for CCs. Flock of Blades, being on a 1 minute CD, while grip is on a 24 second CD. Once a FM successfully baits a BD into wasting it, they would have to wait another 24 seconds to use it again. Except, the FM isn't the only one who knows this, and BDs will try to draw out the fight as long as possible in order to get it back up. BD is objectively, the hardest match up for FM because of their constant healing and iframes, on top of their constant spinning. Leaving a FM only 3 ways to even get a stun off: Grip, Frost Burst, or tech chase. Tech chase only being available under certain circumstance and being a high risk move because (surprise surprise), it involves using one of our hard CC escapes. That plus the slight delay in the cast of our only daze skill (Dragonwhorl), you can see how this is a risky move. Then we have frost burst with its own set of delays, taking almost a full 1~2 seconds to cast, along with it being the most telegraphed move in the game and the fact that you become vulnerable to the BD's airborne attack. Then we have grip which, once you get them to use their flock of blades, is only available for 2 uses before you have to get them to waste it again. This is not even counting how easy it is to delay the match as BD, either running away to the other side of the map in lightning stance, or by spreading out your iframes. Yes in theory FM shouldn't have as hard of a time against BD as they do, but the fact of the matter is that in practice, BD has a massive leg up, and it's also thanks to the fact that their lightning draw is on a 36 second CD and deals an average of 7k damage on a CCed target (or a target just landing from the air combo).

 

And no, I think sins who use Blue Buff should be punished for it. Blue buff is strictly designed with the purpose of PVE in mind, it makes no sense for it to be used in the arena. PVE builds in the arena, okay fine. PVE buffs in the arena, not a snowball's chance. I don't even mind bombardment as much as I do a sin using blue buff. Because of how easy it is to force an escape as a sin on any class, they can easily cheese roll a single escape class like SF, KFM, BM, BDs (maybe), WLs (IDK about that though), and even other sins. Maybe not so much against FMs, sums, and Des, but the sheer damage alone is more than enough to ensure a win anyway, and that's also considering how much damage sins get away with by nature of them being a sin.

 

Like I was saying about BM, I was thinking making their combos more or less something that requires more skill to use. But restricting the frequency of conflagration buff might work as well.

 

I should have also left out there that even though I main FM, I've also played BM, Des, WL, KFM, and SF. So I'm more or less talking on a general level.

[RavTH]

assassins got nerfed
what should be a concern is...
sum, wl, kfm, bd