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Destroyer damage the truth...

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Is that it needs to be buffed to be comparable to other classes. Yes I know at max gear destroyer can do good damage but equivalent gear we are still on the low end compared to other classses. I mean my 600 AP BM is critting for just as much as my 800 AP destroyer something feels really off with that. My destroyer is relatively new just got back into the game but my BM already feels stronger with 1% of the gear that my destroyer has. Like I have Baleful 8 , full legendary SS, Legendary Pet , level 6 soul on my destroyer. I only have Awakened Ivorymoon stage 10 and quest accessories, quest SS on my BM and when I have conflagration effect and I can spam RMB I am critting for the same as my destroyer and doing insane AoE damage all while being MOBILE and not grounded like my destroyer which has to animation cancel since he is Earth (not trying to get into a shadow vs earth debate, I play earth cause I like it more). You would think a class that can't tank and that has to actually animation cancel to do damage (vs spamming RMB and LMB when RMB is down) would be on the higher spectrum of damage......

I really would like to know the rationale behind destroyers at equal gear levels to other classes doing relatively less damage?????

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TJXX   

A while back I was doing some dps comparisons with equal gear, I have every class with no badges, badges, flower/feather badges, but I didn't want to look through thousands of screen shots to find them all so I'll just put a few I had already set aside.  The point is, every class is capable of doing nearly the same dps with the same gear even early game.  It's nowhere near as bad as people try to make it out to be.  Obviously some of these could be a bit higher with rng/player.

 

Assassin bombard build.

V2YDw1d.jpg

 

Assassin lightning build.

Nw2ZmIM.jpg

 

Assassin Shadow build.

efepefl.jpg

 

Blade dancer lightning build.

SVKWsLF.jpg

 

Blade master fire build.

BvtFvIV.jpg

 

Destroyer shadow build.

ru1RDHy.jpg

 

Soul fighter ice build.

K9kaZY6.jpg

 

Summoner earth build.  Legendary ring-5/necklace-5/weapon-6

jMusEh1.jpg

Edited by TJXX

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Notice how your destroyer in those pictures has the most/best gear yet still did less damage then the SF and BD who had considerably less ap and gear (read that again destroyer had BETTER GEAR yet still did less damage). I also guarantee equal gear the sin would of done maybe even more then the BD. Your BM equal gear also should do more damage and the summoner did more damage. So basically everything you showed is outperforming destroyer right now which is a big problem. The fact that your BD did 5k more damage with worse gear is a balancing issue that needs to get addressed ASAP. 

Also in your test for destroyer you used shadow which is far easier to play and far more forgiving to play because it doesn't require animation canceling and allows you to dps while moving. Shadow right now at the highest gear level is a bit better then earth in the current NA meta, however I enjoy Earth so I play it. In future patches when we catch up to Korea, Earth becomes significantly better again anyways. So you should also do a test with Earth destroyer right now in your comparison. Also note that Earth Destroyer suffers the most with any movement in a fight so it gets hit harder in real boss settings vs parses that you are able to maximize in the training room. 

Really all your post did was give evidence to my point that right now Destroyer is under-tuned in terms of damage. In no way is it ok for a class with higher gear to be outdpsed by another class with lower gear... that is poor design by definition, its basically unjustified on any level. Especially when you consider that Blade Dancer and Destroyer are basically the same role yet one is clearly ahead of the other and needs to be balanced.

A spec that revolves around animation cancelling and being rooted in placed to perform damage should if anything have higher single target damage in a patchwerk (WoW reference) type fight where no movement is involved to compensate for being penalized harder then other classes when there is movement in fights which is basically the majority of content. 

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TJXX   

The gear is still pretty equal on most of those. A few k difference on some of them if everything was exactly the same.   The summoner actually had the most gear on for those, legendary ring/neck/weapon.  

 

5k is a minuscule amount of dps difference.  Blade dancer can use their msp soul shield set for end game and still be within a few k of their bt set, they have a slight advantage there over every class.

 

 I do basically the same dps on shadow and earth destroyer at that gear level.  Shadow pulls quite a bit ahead as soon as you get the pulse mystic badge.  The dps goes up to somewhere around 60k with just that change.  Which is a lot more than other classes get from the same badge.  Limiting yourself to 1 build and then complaining you're weak when all you have to do to get better dps is change builds doesn't make any sense.  Learn to use both.  Until end game they use the same gear anyway.  Even then it's not that expensive to get both sets of jewelry.  

 

 

Edited by TJXX

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The gear is still pretty equal on most of those. A few k difference on some of them if everything was exactly the same.   The summoner actually had the most gear on for those, legendary ring/neck/weapon.  

 

5k is a minuscule amount of dps difference.  Blade dancer can use their msp soul shield set for end game and still be within a few k of their bt set, they have a slight advantage there over every class.

Not sure I entirely agree that a 5k difference on a 40k parse (ie you are talking about 10-12% difference at that range) on a class that has LESS gear as being "minuscule" (considering the gap would be even bigger assuming equal gear). I personally would consider that a huge outlier in terms of competitive play and an actual tuning problem. Though that probably stems from playing in top 20 world guilds in other mmos where a 10-12% disparity between damage classes would actually be considered a balancing/tuning issue.

 

This whole notion also becomes problematic when you decide to introduce a damage meter to the game. Doing so means you need to ensure that classes with equal gear/skill are actually competitively balanced with each other.

 

Quote

I do basically the same dps on shadow and earth destroyer at that gear level.  Shadow pulls quite a bit ahead as soon as you get the pulse mystic badge.  The dps goes up to somewhere around 60k with just that change.  Which is a lot more than other classes get from the same badge.  Limiting yourself to 1 build and then complaining you're weak when all you have to do to get better dps is change builds doesn't make any sense.  Learn to use both.  Until end game they use the same gear anyway.  Even then it's not that expensive to get both sets of jewelry. 

I mean I can easily play shadow as it is far easier to play and currently in terms of raw damage output it technically is a bit better. However I personally do not find the rotation as fun, the reason I play destroyer is cause of the visceral feeling of carnage you get by animation cancelling your enemies and pulverizing them into dust. I do not enjoy the sweeping the floor play style of simply maintaining willpower buff via Q and Execute and then simply using RMB and use F / galeforce to get resource back.

So yes technically you can say I am limiting my self however it has nothing to do with learning how to use both because I have tried shadow and didn't enjoy it so I chose to stick to Earth (which down the road will be better again anyways).

Also I never complained about the damage between Earth and Shadow I mean in an ideal world they would both be within a small variance of each other. The issue I presented was the fact that Destroyer in comparison to OTHER classes right now is statistically under-performing strictly from a damage number perspective. Ideally once again all classes should be within a small variance of each other in terms of damage output considering equal gear/skill. 

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TJXX   

The damage every class does in this game is so over tuned that 10% dps difference will only makes a few seconds difference.

 

This LESS gear your talking about... did you even look at the stats?  Do you know the difference between a level 5 legendary ring and a level 10? It's almost nothing.  The BD also has more crit rate.  Yeah the destroyer has some more ap, but the dps difference is miniscule like I said before.  I've played in plenty of guilds that went world first in a few games and very rarely is dps the deciding factor in any fight unless you want to do them without skipping most of the mechanics. 

 

Here's a new screen shot for you this time with the BD having MORE gear and doing LESS dps, by a lot (according to you).  Does that mean BD needs a buff?

kciQwuT.jpg

Edited by TJXX

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No cause to be honest your parses on these boss dummies are an intangible and a "minuscule" sample size. At the highest level gear equal skill in the current NA meta if you compare average statistical parses over 10s of thousands you will see that destroyer is in fact lower then many other classes. Also I really like how you changed specs in the second test of your blade dancer to skew a random parse to try and strengthen your point of view. 

 

I mean if your stance is that destroyer is not actually lower damage than other classes that is fine. However you are doing a really poor job trying to support your point of view and are deflecting from the topic via subtle attacks and glaring bias in your posts. 
 

Also I am strictly debating relative damage numbers between classes damage is only over-tuned when you actually have higher levels of gear not everyone is at that point. Its also indirectly admitting the fact that there are distinct variances between the classes (upwards of 10-12%) which I consider a big variance, where you might consider that acceptable. Just cause once you reach a certain threshold of gear and can brute force content easily doesn't justify the disparity to begin with. 

 

If you feel that the disparity is justified and not an issue more power to you however I have a completely differing viewpoint and so far all you have managed to do was prove the point I have portrayed in this thread by indicating and showing that the disparity actually exists. So for that I thank you.

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TJXX   

You said in your first post that you know at end game they can do good damage.  Then you went on about how with equal gear they're on the low end.  The gear I'm using is what most people will have when they finish the story or shortly after, I used that gear specifically because that seemed to be the range you spoke about.  The facts are every single class will be able to hit 35-45k+ with ending story gear and msp 8 set, which is beginner stuff and enough to do all of the content in the game.  Without even entering the end game raid every class can hit over 100k.

 

Destroyer is not the top dps, I've already stated that too, but they are not on the bottom and if they need buffed then so do other builds of other classes. 

 

How about you go do a parse on your destroyer and your bm and show us your dps.  If you're not pulling more dps on your destroyer with the gear you wrote, than you're doing something wrong.  I'd like to see your dps on your bm too, if it's doing more than your destroyer with the same gear I used in my bm parse.

Edited by TJXX

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All i can see here is 1 guy trying to pick a fight......if you dont like Des, then dont play it. If you feel that Des damage is low, then dont have it as your main. I feel that Des is currently in a good position, we are neither a target for nerfs nor are we severly lacking in over all damage. 

 

If you want to provide any good argument, plz post a picture or 2, otherwise your just blowing wind.

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