Bomus

Des vs BD

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Bomus   

Im not here to cry or start fight (altough a bit salty) but is there a real benefit of playing Des over Bd?

i just got back and i love my Des but tbh i feel like I missed on something not rerollin to BD.

is it just me? 

what is the real advantage of DES nowaday

 

btw can't wait to get my hand on the new skill (the spinning axe thing) look amazing!!!!

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There is none.

In every aspect other than equalized arena Destroyers were, are, and will be the joke class of the game efficiency-wise. They will briefly peak at Mediocre when VT comes out, but as usual EU/NA will get skill "balance" patches ahead of schedule and those always made Des weaker relative to other classes. Even ncsoft employees admitted that the only reason to play Destroyer is "to smash things with big axe" and nothing will be done about it.

If you are below raven-level gear, didn't invest in your soul and care about Efficiency over Fun, reroll asap.

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TJXX   

You don't have to learn to animation cancel or end up with garbage dps, AoE you don't have to sacrifice your damage to do, longer lasting party protection(you can reduce damage by 70% for 8 seconds and then protect completely for another 6), slightly better grab, better life steal, slightly better damage reduction spin, better cc resilience, and the most important one..... Can be a gon and not a lyn!

Edited by TJXX

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4 hours ago, TJXX said:

You don't have to learn to animation cancel or end up with garbage dps, AoE you don't have to sacrifice your damage to do, longer lasting party protection(you can reduce damage by 70% for 8 seconds and then protect completely for another 6), slightly better grab, better life steal, slightly better damage reduction spin, better cc resilience, and the most important one..... Can be a gon and not a lyn!

 Let me guess ... you are a blade dancer ?

 Without animation cancel ? Destroyer is a walking training dummy without lmb+rmb animation cancel. Better grab ? What made you think destroyer has better grab ? A bd can double cc + insta-grab bosses while destroyer has to either use z + 4 or waste his gap-closers for this process, which still don't work like bd that can grab start any boss. Bd can grab without cc from long range, destroyer has to land a cc with one of his slow casting skills and be close to target to grab. Destroyer spins for 2 seconds, reflects for 0.5 sec leaving 1.5 sec opening, blade dancer spins for 1 second, reflects for 0.5 sec, leaving only 0.5 second opening for cc/attacks. Destroyer has nothing to fill his focus to keep spinning, when blade dancer can fill his focus fully with a ranged spammable attack. Destroyer only has long cooldown '' c '' skill for resist which is too easy to read ( not to hit ) just like his spin, blade dancer like his cc skills and attacks, have 2 instant spammable dashes which are impossible to see through. A bd can stall time for cooldowns by spamming air-combo skills, which can not be resisted with spin or emberstomp. A destroyer is done if he couldn't kill an opponent after fury and in the end, a bd with mediocre ani-cancel has 1.5x more dps than a destroyer who macros the shit out of his wrath/cleave ani-cancel. Yeah destroyer can be a gon with big breasts and booty, but as for pvp, fighting as a character with those body features versus a ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ lyn kid is extremely insulting/dishonoring, even in case of an unlikely victory.

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2 minutes ago, 821031_1452549945 said:

u do know he was talking about pve des while u went ape shit at him about pvp des .-. ?

 Where does he mention about pve or pvp ? The topic is about which class is advantageous overall. Get out a here.

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TJXX   
17 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

 Let me guess ... you are a blade dancer ?

 Without animation cancel ? Destroyer is a walking training dummy without lmb+rmb animation cancel. Better grab ? What made you think destroyer has better grab ? A bd can double cc + insta-grab bosses while destroyer has to either use z + 4 or waste his gap-closers for this process, which still don't work like bd that can grab start any boss. Bd can grab without cc from long range, destroyer has to land a cc with one of his slow casting skills and be close to target to grab. Destroyer spins for 2 seconds, reflects for 0.5 sec leaving 1.5 sec opening, blade dancer spins for 1 second, reflects for 0.5 sec, leaving only 0.5 second opening for cc/attacks. Destroyer has nothing to fill his focus to keep spinning, when blade dancer can fill his focus fully with a ranged spammable attack. Destroyer only has long cooldown '' c '' skill for resist which is too easy to read ( not to hit ) just like his spin, blade dancer like his cc skills and attacks, have 2 instant spammable dashes which are impossible to see through. A bd can stall time for cooldowns by spamming air-combo skills, which can not be resisted with spin or emberstomp. A destroyer is done if he couldn't kill an opponent after fury and in the end, a bd with mediocre ani-cancel has 1.5x more dps than a destroyer who macros the shit out of his wrath/cleave ani-cancel. Yeah destroyer can be a gon with big breasts and booty, but as for pvp, fighting as a character with those body features versus a ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ lyn kid is extremely insulting/dishonoring, even in case of an unlikely victory.

Some things you're right about, some things you're wrong about.  I didn't talk about pvp at all in my post either.  I'm one of those people that has a lot of time and plays every class.

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13 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

 Let me guess ... you are a blade dancer ?

 Without animation cancel ? Destroyer is a walking training dummy without lmb+rmb animation cancel. Better grab ? What made you think destroyer has better grab ? A bd can double cc + insta-grab bosses while destroyer has to either use z + 4 or waste his gap-closers for this process, which still don't work like bd that can grab start any boss. Bd can grab without cc from long range, destroyer has to land a cc with one of his slow casting skills and be close to target to grab. Destroyer spins for 2 seconds, reflects for 0.5 sec leaving 1.5 sec opening, blade dancer spins for 1 second, reflects for 0.5 sec, leaving only 0.5 second opening for cc/attacks. Destroyer has nothing to fill his focus to keep spinning, when blade dancer can fill his focus fully with a ranged spammable attack. Destroyer only has long cooldown '' c '' skill for resist which is too easy to read ( not to hit ) just like his spin, blade dancer like his cc skills and attacks, have 2 instant spammable dashes which are impossible to see through. A bd can stall time for cooldowns by spamming air-combo skills, which can not be resisted with spin or emberstomp. A destroyer is done if he couldn't kill an opponent after fury and in the end, a bd with mediocre ani-cancel has 1.5x more dps than a destroyer who macros the shit out of his wrath/cleave ani-cancel. Yeah destroyer can be a gon with big breasts and booty, but as for pvp, fighting as a character with those body features versus a ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ lyn kid is extremely insulting/dishonoring, even in case of an unlikely victory.

u do know he was talking about pve des while u went ape shit at him about pvp des .-. ?

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11 minutes ago, TJXX said:

Some things you're right about, some things you're wrong about.  I didn't talk about pvp at all in my post either.  I'm one of those people that has a lot of time and plays every class.

 The guy is asking for overall comparison. Also it's still the crap class destroyer wherever he goes to.

 Yeah, destroyer is trash in pve and it's garbage in pvp. Blade dander is a better version of destroyer on every aspect.

 Also, don't take the whole post as directed at you. I reply for both your post which you claim as about pve and the topic which is about both pve and pvp. No need to make separate posts for every sentence, i think.

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TJXX   
1 hour ago, SauronTheGreat said:

 

 

1 hour ago, SauronTheGreat said:

 Let me guess ... you are a blade dancer ?

 Without animation cancel ? Destroyer is a walking training dummy without lmb+rmb animation cancel. Better grab ? What made you think destroyer has better grab ? A bd can double cc + insta-grab bosses while destroyer has to either use z + 4 or waste his gap-closers for this process, which still don't work like bd that can grab start any boss. Bd can grab without cc from long range, destroyer has to land a cc with one of his slow casting skills and be close to target to grab. Destroyer spins for 2 seconds, reflects for 0.5 sec leaving 1.5 sec opening, blade dancer spins for 1 second, reflects for 0.5 sec, leaving only 0.5 second opening for cc/attacks. Destroyer has nothing to fill his focus to keep spinning, when blade dancer can fill his focus fully with a ranged spammable attack. Destroyer only has long cooldown '' c '' skill for resist which is too easy to read ( not to hit ) just like his spin, blade dancer like his cc skills and attacks, have 2 instant spammable dashes which are impossible to see through. A bd can stall time for cooldowns by spamming air-combo skills, which can not be resisted with spin or emberstomp. A destroyer is done if he couldn't kill an opponent after fury and in the end, a bd with mediocre ani-cancel has 1.5x more dps than a destroyer who macros the shit out of his wrath/cleave ani-cancel. Yeah destroyer can be a gon with big breasts and booty, but as for pvp, fighting as a character with those body features versus a ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ lyn kid is extremely insulting/dishonoring, even in case of an unlikely victory.

Shadow build with the pulse badge is currently quite a lot stronger than earth and doesn't require animation cancel, even earth hardly requires it at end game with all the focus recovery you get.  Better grab is from testing, the 100% crit rate helps a lot, also if a BD hits their 2 button early the grab gets cut short by a few seconds.  Bds grab has a small pro of not requiring a stun on small targets, I wouldn't consider the range long and it also moves the target, so that could be seen as a pro or a con.  Double CC doesn't matter once you know the game, a different class such as FM/SF can do a ranged stun for you and you can still grab, some bosses the BD double stun start doesn't work either and requires the same method.  You don't have to spin for the full time on either class, and usually it's better not to in pvp.  BDs deflect spin is far superior in pvp with it's take flight reset on deflect.  In pve destroyer defense spins are far superior.  The dashes are far from impossible to see through, same as destroyers gap closers.  There are quite a few matchs where you don't use fury and use persistence instead, sometimes it's not a burst game that's going to win it for you in pvp.  I don't know what kind of destroyers you play with or are, but the dps difference is no where near 50% more, especially with a bad ani cancel.  I won't deny bd has superior single target damage, but not as much as you're claiming.

27 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

 The guy is asking for overall comparison. Also it's still the crap class destroyer wherever he goes to.

 Yeah, destroyer is trash in pve and it's garbage in pvp. Blade dander is a better version of destroyer on every aspect.

 Also, don't take the whole post as directed at you. I reply for both your post which you claim as about pve and the topic which is about both pve and pvp. No need to make separate posts for every sentence, i think.

I just gave him some of the PvE pros where destroyer is better, marginal or not.

Edited by TJXX

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Its more about the player and less about the class. A good player on either will do great things, a crap player on either will do crap things. 

PvP is the BDs realm out of the spinners

PvE is the Des realm out of the spinners

 

Des damage is just going to keep scaling, the better you are, the higher it goes, maybe we get nerfed for no real reason, but if you look at the past changes to Des, we've had nearly ZERO damage nerfs, simply because we are probly the only class that was balanced damage wise, but we were gated by gear, better gear better scaling. 

 

But again its all about the player, if you like the class, like the playstyle, then play the class. Any and every class in this game is viable at all levels, its just a matter if you are good enough to get there. Some have it easier, some its like climbing Everest, either way you can all reach the end point. Saying flat out one is better then the other is wrong in every respect. 

1 hour ago, SauronTheGreat said:

. A destroyer is done if he couldn't kill an opponent after fury and in the end, a bd with mediocre ani-cancel has 1.5x more dps than a destroyer who macros the shit out of his wrath/cleave ani-cancel.

I find this extreamly hard to believe specially when in my raid (possibly the largest guild on OMC/Mushin) Im nearly always top 5 if not just outside of it on every fight, and RARELY am i ever beaten by a BD, and this is as an Earth Des, i dont even have BT shadow Acc.

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1 hour ago, TJXX said:

 

Shadow build with the pulse badge is currently quite a lot stronger than earth and doesn't require animation cancel, even earth hardly requires it at end game with all the focus recovery you get.  Better grab is from testing, the 100% crit rate helps a lot, also if a BD hits their 2 button early the grab gets cut short by a few seconds.  Bds grab has a small pro of not requiring a stun on small targets, I wouldn't consider the range long and it also moves the target, so that could be seen as a pro or a con.  Double CC doesn't matter once you know the game, a different class such as FM/SF can do a ranged stun for you and you can still grab, some bosses the BD double stun start doesn't work either and requires the same method.  You don't have to spin for the full time on either class, and usually it's better not to in pvp.  BDs deflect spin is far superior in pvp with it's take flight reset on deflect.  In pve destroyer defense spins are far superior.  The dashes are far from impossible to see through, same as destroyers gap closers.  There are quite a few matchs where you don't use fury and use persistence instead, sometimes it's not a burst game that's going to win it for you in pvp.  I don't know what kind of destroyers you play with or are, but the dps difference is no where near 50% more, especially with a bad ani cancel.  I won't deny bd has superior single target damage, but not as much as you're claiming.

I just gave him some of the PvE pros where destroyer is better, marginal or not.

 But, you can't deny that earth is still way superior in terms of single target dps which actually matters. I never need any aoe skills in this game. There are very rare cases where you need aoe and typhoon is more than enough for this. Grab gets cut short on destroyer too, many times it doesn't last as long as it's timer, mostly a second goes missing. I don't think it's a problem exclusive to bd's grab. I don't go arena with destroyer anymore, but i can easily interfere/counter a blitz, ram. Well, even moving with just a small speed boost effect makes both these openers hit blank air. On the other hand, less than two steps closer than start point against a bd, you are instantly on air or stunned. The most annoying thing is in tag matches, they become completely invulnerable when they keep someone in air-combo which is quite spammable, as if all their resist skills weren't enough.

 

@Duriensbane That's the same myth people keep telling on every mmorpgs out there. A dumped on class, is always believed to be too strong with better gear and at the hands of a better player. They always refuse to compare it with a boosted class with better gear & better player. The mindset begging for a meaning about why something is better compared to other, always forces itself to believe that it must have something to make up for it ... Now, c'mon why is it so hard to accept the fact that destroyer's dps is crap-tier and they have no real role to contribute ... to make up for it. It's like looking for a meaning why a reventon accelerates faster than a corolla and saying it's probably because corolla has better top speed if he has a better driver. Put the same driver in reventon for once !

 The example you give ... about your beating the same tier bd's in terms of dps ... i am not taking this for seriously. But, if it's by any chance true, then there is really something wrong going on with your guild.

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TJXX   
35 minutes ago, SauronTheGreat said:

 But, you can't deny that earth is still way superior in terms of single target dps which actually matters. I never need any aoe skills in this game. There are very rare cases where you need aoe and typhoon is more than enough for this. Grab gets cut short on destroyer too, many times it doesn't last as long as it's timer, mostly a second goes missing. I don't think it's a problem exclusive to bd's grab. I don't go arena with destroyer anymore, but i can easily interfere/counter a blitz, ram. Well, even moving with just a small speed boost effect makes both these openers hit blank air. On the other hand, less than two steps closer than start point against a bd, you are instantly on air or stunned. The most annoying thing is in tag matches, they become completely invulnerable when they keep someone in air-combo which is quite spammable, as if all their resist skills weren't enough.

 

@Duriensbane That's the same myth people keep telling on every mmorpgs out there. A dumped on class, is always believed to be too strong with better gear and at the hands of a better player. They always refuse to compare it with a boosted class with better gear & better player. The mindset begging for a meaning about why something is better compared to other, always forces itself to believe that it must have something to make up for it ... Now, c'mon why is it so hard to accept the fact that destroyer's dps is crap-tier and they have no real role to contribute ... to make up for it. It's like looking for a meaning why a reventon accelerates faster than a corolla and saying it's probably because corolla has better top speed if he has a better driver. Put the same driver in reventon for once !

 The example you give ... about your beating the same tier bd's in terms of dps ... i am not taking this for seriously. But, if it's by any chance true, then there is really something wrong going on with your guild.

No, Shadow is the superior build right now, even on single target.  I've not had my destroyers grab be cut short.  The same tactics work vs the same type of skills, ram/rush if you run away from will both miss, luckily we have the daze/aoe version on 1.

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1 hour ago, SauronTheGreat said:

 

 The example you give ... about your beating the same tier bd's in terms of dps ... i am not taking this for seriously. But, if it's by any chance true, then there is really something wrong going on with your guild.

Then you appearntly havent met a Des that can actually play Des

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@SauronTheGreat The points in your posts are kinda outdated. One small updated tip for you, you can cancel hurricane with LMB so there is no 1.5s opening.

 

Another tip as given by TJXX, start playing around with dark build for PVE, and persistence for PVP.

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Titernia   
13 hours ago, TJXX said:

No, Shadow is the superior build right now, even on single target.  I've not had my destroyers grab be cut short.  The same tactics work vs the same type of skills, ram/rush if you run away from will both miss, luckily we have the daze/aoe version on 1.

No, definitely not. You have certainly played with bad earth destroyer to say that. With the ending gear, earth Des is better than shadow Des, mostly with Riftwalk Axe who allows earth Des to reduce fury cd by 30% (31 sec last). With Shadow build, you depend too much mana to play and hit a lot of. If you're out of Chi, you'll not hit further more.
Shadow is only good if you have a bad ping who doesn't allow you to anim cancel properly

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TJXX   
2 hours ago, Titernia said:

No, definitely not. You have certainly played with bad earth destroyer to say that. With the ending gear, earth Des is better than shadow Des, mostly with Riftwalk Axe who allows earth Des to reduce fury cd by 30% (31 sec last). With Shadow build, you depend too much mana to play and hit a lot of. If you're out of Chi, you'll not hit further more.
Shadow is only good if you have a bad ping who doesn't allow you to anim cancel properly

Raven is better than rift right now for either build.  Prove your statement, find me a screen shot of an earth destroyer pulling more than 185k in the f12 training room on the longgui.

Edited by TJXX

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Titernia   
1 hour ago, TJXX said:

Raven is better than rift right now for either build.  Prove your statement, find me a screen shot of an earth destroyer pulling more than 185k in the f12 training room on the longgui.

AHAHAH ! You made my day, maybe a circus will recruit you ?
Riftwalk is definitely better during long fight or boss battle than Raven.
I can proove that by myself, i got 2 weapons riftwalk and raven, 3 stage both. I do more damages during pull with Raven or during short fight (6v6, mushin tower, infinite tower) but i do much more damages with riftwalk in dungeon especially during a fight more longer than 1.30 min.

Your last sentence : Definitely, you don't know some kind of good Destroyers at all... I do more 230k damages during pull with Riftwalk and appoximatively same damages (a little more) with Raven vs longgui in training room when i do my best during pull but at the end, i got 150k more damages with Riftwalk sustained but only 135k with Raven (approximatively of course).

You wanna see some kind of video explanation about why Riftwalk is better than Raven (or Raven upgrade with 3 level difference) ?
Look at this : Riftwalk stage 9 vs Gunlun stage 3 (Raven upgrade) 

Currently the difference between these 2 weapons is proportional.
I'll post screenshot later (i can't do that now)

Edited by Titernia

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TJXX   

I like how you put damage during pull like that matters unless you're trying to burst something down in 10 seconds.  Then you link some items we don't even have when I say right now in my post.

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Titernia   
27 minutes ago, TJXX said:

I like how you put damage during pull like that matters unless you're trying to burst something down in 10 seconds.  Then you link some items we don't even have when I say right now in my post.

Why do you try to defend Raven is better than Riftwalk while all destroyers have to know we do most of the damages during Fury.
And it's precisely why Riftwalk is better during long fight exceed 1.30 min because our cooldown fury decreases to 31 sec (and not 45 sec with Raven).

I've never been behind other destroyers in dps meter with Raven stage 3 (even stage 6) with my Riftwalk stage 3 in hard mode.

But i agree you need all the last kind of best equipments as possible to do the best with this weapon.
If you aren't able to admit that, maybe you should play a little more your destroyer rather than playing other characters.

 

Edit : Yes, I put damage during pull like that matters because I've a lot of interest in my dps since destroyer could compete with other classes with last equipments. All day i play and all day i want to improve my dps compared to other players.

Edited by Titernia

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TJXX   

Because it IS better, look at any top destroyer.  What weapon do they all use?  There's a very good reason for that, raven is better than riftwalk right now.

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FrozenB   

At least now Destroyer has party protection. It is just like the ice sheath from FM. So, FM can be replaced by Destroyer now because Destroyer can do more CCs and do grab to boost teammates dps where as FM only advantage is projectile protection.

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Titernia   
2 hours ago, TJXX said:

Because it IS better, look at any top destroyer.  What weapon do they all use?  There's a very good reason for that, raven is better than riftwalk right now.

No, the only one reason who does most of the top destroyers have Raven is they already have Raven stage 1 or whatever before the Rifwalk release, that's all. I personnaly do the 2 weapon but nobody want to spend a lot of money to get both. 
Are you too narrow minded to understand that ?

Edited by Titernia

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Zedonia   
36 minutes ago, FrozenB said:

So, FM can be replaced by Destroyer now because Destroyer can do more CCs and do grab to boost teammates dps where as FM only advantage is projectile protection.

You mean the almost useless grab when the destro does 0 damage for some seconds so that SOME classes can do maybe 10% more damage for some seconds while other classes dont even use the restrain skill because it's a dps loss? Yes, it's very smart to choose destro over other classes.

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FrozenB   
16 minutes ago, Zedonia said:

You mean the almost useless grab when the destro does 0 damage for some seconds so that SOME classes can do maybe 10% more damage for some seconds while other classes dont even use the restrain skill because it's a dps loss? Yes, it's very smart to choose destro over other classes.

Grab is useless? It gives 3X more DPS. I think BD's restraint gives around 2X-2.5X more DPS, but definitely lower than destroyer's grab. If you don't like Destroyer, just go play other classes until they revamp the skills next time?

 

No one puts a gun on your head forcing you to play destroyer.

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Zedonia   
12 minutes ago, FrozenB said:

Grab is useless? It gives 3X more DPS. I think BD's restraint gives around 2X-2.5X more DPS, but definitely lower than destroyer's grab. If you don't like Destroyer, just go play other classes until they revamp the skills next time?

 

No one puts a gun on your head forcing you to play destroyer.

I dont play destro and I also dont have any problems having them in my group. I only say that grab is much overrated. 3x more dps? Are you crazy? On my FM main I do around 50k per hit with restrain skill during grab. That should be 3-4 hits/s max. My normal rotation deals easily between 150k and 200k per second. So where is my 3x dps there? Same on my low BD. His restrain skill is pretty slow and does even less damage than my burst rotation and I dont have any skill modifiers yet (bracelet, raven). Outside of it it's viable to use it. So pls, dont say grab is that good. Every high gear destro should not grab any enemy unless it's really good mechanic-wise.

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