Aveos

Lower the level requirement and overall Skybreak Spire difficulty

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Aveos   

I wanted to proposed this suggestion to NC soft regarding lowering the level requirement and boss overall difficulty at Skybreak Spire. Skybreak Spire has been a high level 24-man dungeon that low gear player can’t even join. While the high-geared player continues to get rich by the money which has been bid, and continue to get more and more powerful, low level player or no-clan player can’t even qualified to enter the dungeon raid. Anyone without a clan is not possible to do the raid. This has created a serious gap where the rich get richer and the powerful get more powerful, while the average player just stand and watch them. I urged and suggested that Skybreak Spire be made like Midnight Skypetal Plains or Dawn of Khandar Vihar, and we can exchange the Skybreak Spire equipment or accessory with the boss-drop item. This has given a chance to the average player who eager and intend to join the raid to get good item. I had known that the decision is not your side to be made, but I strongly suggested that you can highlighted this to the developer in Korea. This is a suggestion that is fair to everyone who is paying and playing hard for the game.

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I actually thought future raids, WAAAAAAY back when Bloodshade and E-Fleet 24 mans were the big hot spot, when you can just enter the portal and be thrown into a random channel with people until the whole channel was filled _______ out of 24 players that future incoming raids like;

-Midnight Skypetal

-Skybeak Spire

-Dawn of Khanda

 

That these Would have the same function like BSH and E-Fleet with random matching... but instead we're forced to pre-create alliances before we enter

or we will just be thrown into an empty channel with you, and no one else and that's it. Kind of disappointed. 

 

TL;DR ---> MSP, Skybeak, DK should have random queues like we did way back when lvl 45 cap was cannon.

 

Edited by tuannifur

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BT is endgame content and the difficulty is fine.  Once we get vortex temple bt will be nerferd to be more manageable.  Ncsoft is also working on making all the raids 12man. Kr now has 12man bt , dwan and msp. As contents progresses it will be streamlined. Look at baful and seraph weapons stages 1-10 are a joke now.  

If you cant raid you are more than welcome to go dawnforge/riftwalk. Stage 6 riftwalk/dawnforge->Stage 6 raven 

Edited by ClairFarron

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Zuzu   

Sad thing is, when Black Tower gets nerfed it doesn't mean it'll still be clearable by everyone. It requires coordination and brains alongside with knowing how to play your class which seems like majority of people don't know how to do.

 

1 hour ago, tuannifur said:

TL;DR ---> MSP, Skybeak, DK should have random queues like we did way back when lvl 45 cap was cannon.

Do you know how hellish this would be? These 24man dungeons require coordination. Seeing how E.Fleet and Nightshade had constant AFKers at the boss just waiting for everyone else to do the work, I know this'll be the same situation. People would just simply enter MSP/Dawn for example and wait for everyone else to do everything and they easily get credit after.

 

For Black Tower they would expect to get carried and can sit in that channel since you're not able to force them out. Think things through before actually suggesting them; actually do the content first then make better judgement on suggestions.

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39 minutes ago, Zuzu said:

For Black Tower they would expect to get carried and can sit in that channel since you're not able to force them out. Think things through before actually suggesting them; actually do the content first then make better judgement on suggestions.

that part there (underlined) is the main issue - if you do not have a massive clan to take you on your first raid or have geared out in legendary where ppl will accept you based on stats then it is highly unlikely you will get to do the content.

 

people are asking for top lvl AP (even though AP isn't everything it is what ppl demand) or about 2 hours after the dungeon is released ppl are demanding 10+ run achievement - someone who is casual (non-top tier AP) or doesn't run in a massive clan will be highly unlikely to find a party to do the content.

 

think before you write as well.

Edited by WaningMoon

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Zuzu   
11 minutes ago, WaningMoon said:

that part there (underlined) is the main issue - if you do not have a massive clan to take you on your first raid or have geared out in legendary where ppl will accept you based on stats then it is highly unlikely you will get to do the content.

people are asking for top lvl AP (even though AP isn't everything it is what ppl demand) or about 2 hours after the dungeon is released ppl are demanding 10+ run achievement - someone who is casual (non-top tier AP) or doesn't run in a massive clan will be highly unlikely to find a party to do the content.

think before you write as well.

MSP and Dawn do not take a massive clan or a highly geared player to get into. Only Black Tower does which will always be like this since it's an end-game dungeon. Black Tower, as mentioned above, is getting nerfed though but it still requires coordination, patience, skill and gear to be cleared. So if players who aren't geared, have the patience or want to coordinate for Black Tower try to clear it after the nerf it'll just be the same outcome as now, they won't clear.

 

As for the underlined sentence you took out of my whole post, it was towards the quoted poster's suggestion of making the three 24man dungeons just like E.Fleet and Nightshade which obviously doesn't work with these 24man dungeons.

 

For your F8 rant about them preferring higher AP players and wanting 10+ run achievements, as dungeons get harder and harder it'll take more mechanics and gear to clear the said dungeons. People are going to want efficient runs, they're going to prefer having other people who know the dungeon as well to get it done smoothly with little to no screw ups; that's THEIR preference. Now for a casual that doesn't know a lick about the dungeon, they can easily try and make a lobby of their own title "Learning run" or read/watch a guide of said dungeon so they have an idea on what's going on. That'll boost their chances in getting a run rather than trying to sneak in a run or just simply pouting about other people's preferences.

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amokk   

I started BT at 850 AP, in a random PUG that recruited via faction chat. We did boss1 in 3hours, boss 2 in 8 hours. 

 

You don't need 1k AP people. You need dedicated people you can run with that are eager to learn the dungeon. Black Tower is no casual crap you can do in 30min the first few times. Top Clans spend hours and hours and hours for their first Black Tower clear, because they actually put time into learning every mechanic. Now, with BT gear, they can just DPS through most stuff. 

 

Even boss3, you just need 55k dps per person and 4 summoners and you don't even have to run from boss to boss. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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LiriC   
25 minutes ago, amokk said:

I started BT at 850 AP, in a random PUG that recruited via faction chat. We did boss1 in 3hours, boss 2 in 8 hours. 

 

You don't need 1k AP people. You need dedicated people you can run with that are eager to learn the dungeon. Black Tower is no casual crap you can do in 30min the first few times. Top Clans spend hours and hours and hours for their first Black Tower clear, because they actually put time into learning every mechanic. Now, with BT gear, they can just DPS through most stuff. 

 

Even boss3, you just need 55k dps per person and 4 summoners and you don't even have to run from boss to boss. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THANK YOU !  WELL SPOKEN !

 

I hate these people that want to run in BT at 700 / 750 AP...  First time that I joined  BT I was 750 and got kicked to make room for a higher AP, I was not mad about it, I understood that the need for dmg is high, so I accepted it.

You know what I did after that ?  I worked hard to get the AP needed to be considered for a spot and then I worked hard to get the AP NEEDED for the spot.

It's very true than clans that run it for the first time spend hours and hours to even beat the first boss and you @Aveos what to do it in like 10 minutes.. no... you need to work and actually LEARN what to do.

 

The first boss lasted hours when we started BT... hours .. now it's done in 10 minutes....  second boss we tried to just nuke it down.. we failed each time.. we tried one more time before we called it a day but this time with mech... we ALMOST failed it... it was like at 1% when timer run out and we all were screaming.. "nuke nuke nuke" .. and we got it...   at the next bt when we got to the second.. we now just nuke it.. because we know what to do now and ofc in a week people evolve .. they get higher stats..   not like you that do nothing and want stuff simpler.

The 3'd boss... oh god the fails... because we kinda refused to learn the mech and wanted to nuke it down.. we failed so many times.. so many hours.. oh god..  so many resets on cats.. 10 minutes breaks each time...  again hours.... and now ? .. just nuke it down in a couple of minutes because we know what to do... the end.

Now were at the 4th boss.. were we are still failing and we are still learning.. were getting better organized to be able to pull it off since we keep on failing... but do you hear me crying like you are ? No..  we get people to know how to react..   just like we failed and failed to get to the 4th boss we will fail here as well till we do it.

 

So.. you are more or less right with the money ... but not by much. if you do the 1 / 2 / 3 stages.. you get around.. 300 gold per person.. and it's not that much if you can do the purple train. and the legendary bosses.

 

If you have pinacle gear on your and not even legendary ss.. and you care crying that BT is hard, then you will just get bashed all over this forum  AND IF you have high ap. good pet aura. ss and you fail and cry then it's your team and you to blame.... some people wasted hours and hours to even pass the first boss.

 

GET GUD 

 

 

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Liene   

My only question is: what's the point of making Spire gears exchangeable with tokens from boss like MSP or DKV if you don't even try it?

 

No clan people? just find a clan.

 

Low gear? How low?? 800+ap is enough to clear this which is easy to achieve now. This dungeon relies more on mech rather than DPS. I can tell you my dps at raven king is 5k/s while the highest in the raid is like 56k/s. Yet we can still whack him flat. You think I get carried? I was doing mech killing adds and doing cc almost all the time.

 

This dungeon is not as scary as you think, once you get an idea on their attack sequence, it's just as repetitive as any dungeon outside. 

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Kimki   
7 hours ago, Aveos said:

Skybreak Spire has been a high level 24-man dungeon that low gear player can’t even join.

Low gear player has no business in Skybreak. Low gear player should get his items to decent lvl (legendary neck and belt at least + legendary weapon) and then go BT raid.

7 hours ago, Aveos said:

While the high-geared player continues to get rich by the money which has been bid,

Not all big clans use bid system. Some use point system that doesn't include gold (it's called DKP).

7 hours ago, Aveos said:

no-clan player can’t even qualified to enter the dungeon raid

Really? I did my first runs with semi-PUG group (6 players from one clan and 8 from other rest was random). After I've changed servers I had no friends, no clan and no raid. I started to look for one. Went though several PUGs until I've found one I liked. That PUG turned into static group I raid with till now.. no need for clan.

7 hours ago, Aveos said:

 I urged and suggested that Skybreak Spire be made like Midnight Skypetal Plains or Dawn of Khandar Vihar, and we can exchange the Skybreak Spire equipment or accessory with the boss-drop item.

Vendor is already there. You can buy shields from him for feathers. I don't remember if they've removed boss clear limit from MSP but it is still there for BT.

 

Edited by Kimki

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Aveos   

First, I had already clearly known that, BT is a high-level raid as I mentioned in my first sentences. That said, I preferred high level AP and the people who know the mech to do the raid, as in other purple dungeons. I am very frustrated when low level AP or player who don’t know mech, mess up EC, DT, NS, or NF run, etc…. I am also working hard to reach the required AP now, to be offered a spot. Known that, I am not some low-level AP player or someone who don’t know mech, who whining here because I am not allowed to join or get kicked.

For Liene, some people do try it. I had tried it, that’s why I making this suggestion based on what I saw and observed. No clan people, just find a clan, as simple as that? Finding a high-level clan is difficult already, not to mention those clan is full with 80/80, not even mention that clan even do BT raid, not even mention that even the clan do BT raid, they have already a fixed player and timing to do.

This dungeon is not as scary as I think, I know, I had tried it. Scary is not the part, time consuming is the part. I am working class, not some students or children who can sit in front of computer 24/7. My allocated time for this game is barely 3 hours per day. I am not from NA. Every Wednesday maintenance I had lost 1 day of gaming. Yes, you can say I have Saturday and Sunday, which I have to tend to my family, and my wife. Sitting in the PC for 3 - 4 hours learning BT mech and coordination between players without AFK or BRB, is not an option for some working class or having family people.

For Kimki, I had already answer your first question, which I had said “skybreak spire has been a high level….”.

Second, which I also had already answered, finding a clan to do BT is hard already. So mostly player will PUG or shout at the faction, which means you have to bid for the accessory. The point system only applied to clan, not on PUG party.

Your third statement, I did my first runs too with semi PUG group, we are learning the mech the first week. And I am agreeing that, we took couple of hours to learn mech, and some players are still cannot get the mech, which is fine for me. So, let’s see, you will have said: “try again the next week, I am doing like that until I get the mech”. Guess what, next week, they do it at the wrong timing for me, I can’t join at that moment. “how about the week after”, yeah…. guess what, not enough people to online, some are online but can only online for 1 hour…. So we shout at the faction, new people join, and they are learning the mech. Then the process repeats again.

About your fourth statement, I know the vendor is there, what I am saying is not the SS, but the BT accessory….is hard to get. That’s is why I am making the suggestion. I am not making it for my own good, I am making this suggestion for other player who had been ready for BT all the time, but cannot find the suitable opportunity out there.  

 

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LiriC   

@Aveos  I'm sry but if you can give only 3 hours minimum for this game then BT is not the place for you at your current AP... witch I'm guessing it's at 850. around that.... with PUGS.

At your current AP your best chance is a clan, it's just simple as that.

This is end game, this is not a normal dungeon to be done so easy and with PUGS, find some reason in your logic first.

It's just simple to see were your fault is, you are looking for a squad that well..wont  fail..  and the first boss is a bit difficult to do if you don't know what to do.. but still easy with good communication.

 

But.. alas, your wish will be offered when BT will be nerfed and be dropped to a 12 man... so I'm guessing this discussion is just for nothing... and all you have to do is wait.

Since you don't have enough time to invest in it, you should focus to make full legendary or get more money  and mats.....  the BT will be nerfed but not now.. I'm guessing in 2-3 months ? maybe ? if not 5 months...  but only because we will get another dungeon even more difficult... will you ask for a nerf then as well ?  You play and advance at the speed that you can.

 

Imagine what bonus these guys that invest 10 / 18 hours a day, because you want a chance for something better...   it dosen't work like that for end game... it's supposed to take time and it's supposed to be hard... you are not angry here because you want the game simpler... you are angry because your PUG is failing thus not making it possible for you to get some gold out of it.... but keep in mind since you can't even pass the first boss.. you won't get much stuff out of ..  not even from the second.. the 3'd one is were the good stuff drops... and since you are doing it with pugs, it's clear you WONT have the dps or knowledge to burst it down and you will need to do mech.. WITCH .. will not end well.

 

Bottom line.. invest the little time that you posses .. and search for a decent clan.. and hope that you make the cut on the list.. because we all know.. in a clan.. we still take the ones that join discord / ts3 to be able to form a bond..  why would I take you when I can take my best friend.. because we are in the same clan ? the same clan that you never joined to just say "hy"..  ofc not.. you try and gear up people that will be there for you.

Edited by LiriC

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amokk   

And like people already said: BT is not for casuals, at least learning the mechs take some time. If you don't have that time, don't try to destroy the game for most people. 

NS/DT/NF/EC etc are already stupid easy, please don't make the END-GAME RAID easy too. Whats the reason of playing a game, when there is really no challenge?

Edited by amokk

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LiriC   

Yeah.. Kinda.. if you don't have time to invest..  BT is just a part of the game that you wont see very soon... it's not something that all people get to see and experience.

 

Hey  @Aveos  if you feel that bad about it, I recommend you to get 2.500  gold, pay the entry fee with a top guild that do the 4 stages, and you get to have the main part to upgrade your weapon :)  witch you will have to pay at 2.000 .. simple right ?  with pugs that essence will shoot at 2.500 so you save 500 that you could pay for the entry fee.

 

Just because it's in the game dose not mean you get to experience it if you don't have time for the game....  don't think I have a lot of time for it either..  I invest around 5 hours and weekends is were I shine..  but as end game goes.. what.. you do the purple and leg. and your kinda done as far as gold goes..   then you go in pvp  and what else you might want... since you can craft on the run. and it takes hours and hours.

 

No one cares what you do outside the game.. like .. wife and kids.. we all have friends with the same problem, or we have the same situation like yourself, don't use it as an excuse...  calculate your time better, invest on the important things.. and that's all you can do on a budge time.

 

When we do BT.. the person that will organize will talk to most of us.. get our times when we are on.. and set it on a day and hour to match us better....  for instance our BT is today because most are on...  you can't have that with PUGS.. they don't care if they miss the timer or not.. in a clan you get replaced if you don't hold to your word.. either your on or not.. simple.

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The raid's already getting nerfed just like normal mode DT/EC/NF (which are disgustingly easy) and pug runs will become more common (especially with 12 man raid)

But the cycle will continue. Once Vortex Temple comes out, complaints about it being too hard will roll in without people realizing they cant clear it with baleful 6

The stuff is meant to be challenging, and the more challenging it is, the more rewarding it will be when you actually do clear it. Even tho it does take time to gear up to be able to do Skybreak Spire it's pretty rewarding once you learn the mechs

Edited by Inundated

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Wiri   

@Aveos

 

Do you have all of the stuff that can be obtain outside of BT like:

- Legendary accessories like necklace (DT), belt (NF), bracelet (NS) level 6 or above

- MSP soul shield (Either full or mix with 3 Xanos)

- Pet aura level 10 or higher

- Bladeful or Seraph stage 10~12 or even Dawnforged, Riftwalk

- Maybe draken ring also but not necessary

- Element earring stage 10

- Soul stage 6 or above

 

I think if you have 3 hours for game and still don't have all the stuff above, you should focus on that first.

After that I believe you will be at 890~930 AP depend on your gem, and you should be qualified for any BT raid at least for first 2 bosses which drop BT accessories.

 

First boss is easy enough, dps, drop poison, kd when boss jump.. what's else..

Second boss is good luck if your team has low dps and have to do mech, but watch youtube, read guideline, try after try and experiences is what I can say.

 

You said you don't ask for yourself but for other player, find clan is hard enough..

Well, group them up and become their leader cause seem like you want to take care of them.

 

Guide them to gear, and make your own raid if you still cannot find any raid group that accept you after u gear all of the stuff above then.

 

Hard work will be pay, and like I said boss 1 and 2 or even boss 1 only should be good enough for you and pug team to be able to achieve with your limited of game time for BT accessories

 

For boss 3 and 4 either your team become stronger, understand the mech to be able to clear or you can go for Dawnforged, Riftwalk weapon and wait for later BT neft, weapon path change in the future.

Edited by Wiri

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FrozenB   

The only points I agree here is too hard to find a static BT raid group.

 

As people mentioned above, just join a big clan? Well...yes, you can do that, but that's also why all the small clans were disbanded/broken up. Also, do you want to play with or see some other players you don't like in the big clan?

Yes, people can PUG for BT raid (if you are in populated server) and also they can clear boss 1 and 2 after many hours of attempts. However, what about BT raid in another week? PUG again and repeats this many hours of attempt because there are new players in the raid? Of course, no one wants to repeat the same mech over and over again when you know the mech very clearly by yourself. That's why having static BT raid group is important. It is fine to replace 4-5 new people each week, but not more than half of the raid.

 

I personally can't wait for the 12m raid because I can finally do the BT raid with my own clan-mates.

 

For the people who are in the big clan, you guys have no idea the life of players in small clans that want to find and join a BT raid group. Sometimes, some clans ask for outsiders to join their raid due to free spots in their BT raid. However, we have to follow their clan/bid rule. Sometimes, they do free-bid (the most fair), DKP (outsider has no chance to get items), or by decision of clan advisors/leader (outsider has very slim chance to get items).

 

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BT is difficult to tank, not because of the boss super hard mechanic to tank but because of 24 man gives me extra 50ms+ which become 350-370ms.

I manage to tank boss 3 but extremely lagging.

IF it's really becoming 12 man in future, it will be incredibly nice.

Edited by Jack Valent

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Lemy   

Difficulty is fine but the matchmaking could be nice, I'm in a clan but sometimes I end up missing when my clan does bt due to other plans or busy in rl. This feature would only be nice if they also set it so that you have to meet certain requirements to run the raid- could be stats such as crit and such including ap, gear, maybe even a certain achievement to show you're capable of doing the raid. Another good idea is that you should be able to pick what boss to go to, lets say you just completed boss 1 during a later time and later on you want to go to boss 2, boss 2 should be unlocked in matchmaking so you can match with other people doing boss 2. After you complete boss 2 then boss 3 unlocks, this could be pushing it lol but would be a nice feature if they implemented random matchmaking.

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Sinlay   

Just make Raven king feriocity, energy and animus tradeable ( like raven king soul ), and then we could buy it on marketplace. Think about people without clan, they are really large amout of players, and if you dont let them progressing their equipment, they will leave this game. Dont make this game like aion or tera, where without clan you could stop playing after reach max lvl.

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Zuzu   
53 minutes ago, Sinlay said:

Just make Raven king feriocity, energy and animus tradeable ( like raven king soul ), and then we could buy it on marketplace. Think about people without clan, they are really large amout of players, and if you dont let them progressing their equipment, they will leave this game. Dont make this game like aion or tera, where without clan you could stop playing after reach max lvl.

Let me stop you there. This is why they made ALTERNATIVE weapon paths. It does not require Black Tower and can be obtained by people who don't want to join a clan to do Black Tower for whatever reason.

 

Making those weapon materials tradeable would just be a down right idiotic move.

Edited by Zuzu

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Now honestly after reading all this its quite obvious why you're concerned but it's also really obvious why you shouldn't even think about obtaining bt items. Bt as a raid was meant to be difficult, it wasn't designed for everyone to attend. It is the first of many raids that require you to put some actual effort into. You can say 'hey i have 800+ ap and i can't find a raid, nerf it'. Like hell you can have 900+,1k ap or 2k ap as far as it goes the raid itself is a 24 man joint effort to clear it, now if you can't find a raid to join because of your ap requirements then simply get better gear, if you can't join because no clan accepts you then make your own clan, if your clan can't do bt because it has no members then carefully recruit, if you don't have time for bt due to a job or studies save your gold and buy a run. It's always possible to make your own raid however you want. Saying that people get richer and richer or more powerful with each raid as if it's something that they just waved their hands and made happen like it's nothing while you scraped your knees and put loads of effort but can't find a raid, sounds like simple bullshit. Every raid despite how some are clown raids(where their leaders ask every week for summoners and swap their members like used up toys because they need a certain amount of dps to clear bt since they didn't put any freaking effort to learn mechanics while refusing to learn them) and how some have bad reps(where people get scammed by raid leaders and/or pay money to not get their items) deserves what they get. Each raid was made by a person, by a clan, by a group. The start is the same for everyone.

 

If you clear it you deserve the loot and what you do with that loot is only your business(you use it, sell it, play around with it, seriously i know people that collect animus just for the fun of it because everyone has it in their raids, others collect energy and such). If you can't clear then really get better or buy a run, if neither works then put actual effort and make a raid.

 

Personally im a student but i had a chance to make a bt raid with a clan that i helped rebuild and after constantly trying we cleared all of bt, now the raid is not 100% static, we have everyone students, people without jobs, working people, family guys. We have people that have bad connection, we have some that have 4fps in raids, we have people that dc a lot. Everyone has different gear, some are 1k+, some are 800+ with mediocre gear. It is the same for every raid out there that cleared bt properly so why should the people, that put countless hours constantly learning how to beat the raid as a 24 man unit, have their efforts devalued. Asking for raids to be nerfed just cause you are not prepared for it in terms of time, equipment, skill, knowledge is not a legit reason to smear the efforts of the people that cleared bt. 

 

If you think it's unfair, wait for bt nerf. The dungeon got nerfed in kr because only alts or newer people needed to clear that dungeon. If you are one of the people that doesn't plan to put in any effort then at least be decent and gather up your gold to buy the run and get your items, because even that just shows that you are at least partially dedicated to the game to gather up 2,4,8k gold for certain items.

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bom   

Hmm. Since the major problem here is the clan, it's quite hard to find the clan that can fit you, not to mention has enough man power + time investment into BT raid. I used to be on that side, where I had to change server 2 times simultaneously just to find the clan that fitted me. It did take sometime until I can guarantee the spot in the lineup of my current clan(Used to be alternative team, reserved spot for main team, reserved spot for practicing mechanics without reward- when I joined, my clan can only cleared 2 first bosses and since I was not in the lineup, I didnt have the reward from the first 2 bosses) . After two weeks, it paid off, I was in the main team, try hard the third boss for real, first time pass the boss, try hard the raven mechanic, study mech via video with them, analyze what and when to do this, do that, and at last, first time clearing raven with them. Yep, wonderful memory. And now, my clan is investing to the second team, right now is trying hard for the raven king. What we are aiming for is the third team.
I could only say that you have to try to look for the place where you are accepted. There's always exists a clan out there that need you and you need them. 

P/s: the upcoming vortex gonna come with a nerf in black tower, make it more easier to have a PUGs run or low-requirement team, so I think you can find people easier.

Edited by bom

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On 6/22/2017 at 2:22 AM, amokk said:

I started BT at 850 AP, in a random PUG that recruited via faction chat. We did boss1 in 3hours, boss 2 in 8 hours. 

 

You don't need 1k AP people. You need dedicated people you can run with that are eager to learn the dungeon. Black Tower is no casual crap you can do in 30min the first few times. Top Clans spend hours and hours and hours for their first Black Tower clear, because they actually put time into learning every mechanic. Now, with BT gear, they can just DPS through most stuff. 

 

Even boss3, you just need 55k dps per person and 4 summoners and you don't even have to run from boss to boss. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This guy gets it.

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BT is over rated you just need to be dedicated and to learn mechs. as for needing to be in a clan... just be an active player and make friends...

i ended up getting an assured spot every week on two diffrent raids from two diffrent clans that way, not even my faction.  (of course i had to drop one)

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