Karst

Returning Player, unimpressed with outdated PvP.

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Karst   

After the Developers at Carbine put the final nail in the Wildstar coffin recently, I've moved back to Blade & Soul and have been enjoying it again, for the most part. Since it's really the only other MMO around with a good combat system.

 

Enjoyed the 1v1 PvP a bit back at B&S Launch because unlike all other Eastern/Korean MMOs, the game balanced gear inside the PvP zone to at least somewhat keep players on an "even" (though not perfect) playing field and made PvP much more about skill than gear.

I like that 1v1 arenas are still around. But it seems that 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 arena modes still do not exist (No, Tag Match is not 3s.) and worst of all Battlegrounds, for some ungodly, idiotic reason, do not balance gear like arenas do. Gotta love being killed in literally 1~2 hits by some Warlock. The best way to end PvP in a game is to let geared players one-shot-kill anyone new.

 

Is this game still in the stone age? How does it still not have gear-balanced Battlegrounds or 2s, 3s or 5s in arenas? Are they in the works?

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LiriC   

As much as I respect what you said, I don't like the idea of gear-balance that much... and let me tell you why.

Ok.. first off I agree with the 1 - 1 .. it's a fun way to have some equal fights and so is 3 v 3 ... I don't pvp as much as I would like back in the days because I just don't have time right now.

 

But I support the 6 v 6 to be based on gear... sure you get 1-2 shots at times but that's a way of looking at it.. those guys spend either entire hours or entire days or entire amounts of money to have that gear... to get balanced in pvp and be left to only use the set gear in PVE.. would be a huge disappointment for me... don't get me wrong I'm not a whale .. I'm just a poor guy with medium ap.. a bit over 770 to be more exact and I like you got 1 shoted a couple of times.. but I don't get mad because I know they worked hard for that gear.

 

I played L2 and Aion for many years and as you all know the system there is way different .. L2 you call out wars... you farm on the open field, you have clans chasing you, you flag, you had so many problems...    you don't have that in BNS .. if you want to PVE.. you can do that all day long without a care in the world...

Aion.. you had zones were the other faction would hunt you down... you never saw "gear balance" when a damn party is coming your way and you start screaming and running.

 

I think the community in BNS is way to spoiled ... you guys never had to fight someone bigger / stronger then you ?  I mean come on.. we don't have castles here.. we don't have huge mass pvp.. I'm talking about 100 v 100 .. and my guess is that we never will..  we don't have clan wars going on the map..   you get it ?  

 

So.. stone age ? No.. it's no.. it's just far to noob friendly... this is a PVE game.. and with just 10% for PVP.. that's it... for the love of god .. cut the crying.... back in the days you had "some" pvp on the map in mistywoods , but that's a dead zone now.

 

For all the people that cry about pvp not getting to be fair... go in L2 for a bit.. join a clan.. farm for a decent gear.. and then move to zones were parties have to farm.. and you will see SO MANY WARS... so much killing...   were diplomacy WAS a actual thing.. were LEADERS really had to do to stuff.

 

God I miss the good old days... the wars.. the sieges... the open field pvp.. the KS . the TK .. the PK ...    

 

Spoiled... and to denie another players gear is just ignorant... and my gear is shit.. so I'm defending no one.

 

EDIT :  I hope they never change it... I would be annoyed if I would reach 1.000 AP .. to just have my gear balanced down to 500 in PVP..   people should enjoy the power they worked so hard to achieve.

Edited by LiriC

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Shuchin   

It is very doubtful that they will re-introduce a "true" 3v3, as it was already a chaotic failure in Asia before our West launch and was replaced by the current tags system.

 

I also doubt they will increase the amount of modes a lot as each new mode means new balancing issues.

 

Would be happy to see a third battleground at least, though. :P

 

 

As for balanced vs. non-balanced, I definitely need that one or two modes (like now) are balanced, as it gives me some objective feed back on my actual technical skill as a player.

 

Concerning arguments pro non-balanced:

 

I do not care about the grinding aspect at all, also cannot relate to why PvE performance should make your char stronger in PvP. Ergo I would prefer much stronger PvP gear that is limited by PvP currencies (i.e. galaxy fragments, braveries) more than by gold restraints. That way, being good in PvP would make you stronger faster, which intuitively makes more sense.

 

Actually the only pro argument I have myself for the geared 6v6 is that it opens up novel skill uses by tweaking the skill balancing with badges and other skill bonus effects. Also being able to play around with offense vs defense and healing etc is an interesting extra dimension absent in 1v1 and 3v3.

Edited by Shuchin

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Eckogen   

For 6v6, I believe it was their intentions for it to not to be gear balanced. Their reasoning behind it? I don't know. I don't mind it, but the match making could use some tweaks.

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Zekken   
5 hours ago, Shuchin said:

Concerning arguments pro non-balanced:

I do not care about the grinding aspect at all, also cannot relate to why PvE performance should make your char stronger in PvP. Ergo I would prefer much stronger PvP gear that is limited by PvP currencies (i.e. galaxy fragments, braveries) more than by gold restraints. That way, being good in PvP would make you stronger faster, which intuitively makes more sense.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this game's largest flaw when it comes to unequalized PVP. Why should people be rewarded in 6v6 for spending the majority of their time PVEing as opposed to people who dedicate their time to PVPing. It's no wonder why the majority of PVP players bailed on the game. The game rewards PVE players over PVP players even in PVP.

 

They should have had PVP merchants sell PVE items like what is currently in the game along with PVP gear for unequalized PVP (6v6, OW). Gear hierarchy would be something like: top tier PVP gear > top tier PVE gear > low tier PVP gear > mid tier PVE gear > low tier PVE gear (similar hierarchy to games like aion and Tera).  This structure provides: progression for dedicated PVP players; allows dedicated PVE players to still be competitive in 6v6 with their own gear; provides an entry level PVP set that can be reasonably obtained by PVX players that will fair well in 6v6 against all opponents at lower elo.

Edited by Zekken

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It is too bad this game doesn't have mass or even much open world pvp. This will make alot of people who try this game to keep looking around until bns does if they ever do.

As for the op, eventhough I am still undergeared to most standards I don't support equal gear everything pvp either. For starters all classes aren't equal. Step into the arena you will find nothing but wl, sm, bm, bd because those classes aren't easy to counter on equal gear. So if we have equal gear everything, not only would tonnes of people quit but the rest would start rerolling to classes. Secondly, whats the point of gearing up if you can't use it?

I get the idea but I just don't think it would be worthwhile.

Edited by Justgreencorn
Typos

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Lamae   

and the "pvp" gear can't compete with whale ass "pve" gears they win and farm more that its sure that they will get emperor while the ones who spent their lives in battle ground loses and won't get emperor weap when it comes out. - serious logic flaw of devs. either way raven and all patches after it shouldn't have happened until they can do it along with emperor weapon.

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Shukran   

well..not supporting gear balanced pvp is ...childish... i mean, they arent going to remove geared pvp because whales throw ncsoft tons of money.

 

but really, having 2 queues is not nasa business.

 

BUT

 

calling pvp outdated... is silly: mboas lives with same mechanics since ages. tons of money

CS:GO outdated = esport...

 

come on

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Karst   

I don't even care if they balance gear in Battlegrounds or not, I just want to at least be able to get PvP Gear that is good for PvP and puts people on a more even field. The PvP equipment the game has now is a joke.

 

The fact that I can enter Instanced PvP and be literally instant-killed by some scrub in raid gear is unacceptable nowadays.

 

Wildstar had a good gear system for PvP. All item-levels were rounded up to 100, but your PvP-stats (PvP Defense, PvP Damage) were unchanged meaning PvP gear was better, and your gears stats were not changed either, so you could still have stat distribution builds (crit builds, tank builds, etc) so effectively your gear still did matter greatly, but it did not make you an unkillable god that one-shot-kills everyone around you because you're in raid gear.

 

As for this...

14 hours ago, LiriC said:

 

I think the community in BNS is way to spoiled ... you guys never had to fight someone bigger / stronger then you ?  I mean come on.. we don't have castles here.. we don't have huge mass pvp.. I'm talking about 100 v 100 .. and my guess is that we never will..  we don't have clan wars going on the map..   you get it ?  

 

So.. stone age ? No.. it's no.. it's just far to noob friendly... this is a PVE game.. and with just 10% for PVP.. that's it... for the love of god .. cut the crying.... back in the days you had "some" pvp on the map in mistywoods , but that's a dead zone now.

 

Spoiled... and to denie another players gear is just ignorant... and my gear is shit.. so I'm defending no one.

Been playing MMORPGs for around 16 years now, so please don't talk to me about "Spoiled". I've played through loads of those games where there was no gear balance at all and PvP was just a free for all. Yes it makes it rewarding when you have a crapton of gear and can one-shot people. But is that actually fun? No, not really. Not for either person, unless the person doing the one-shotting is some kind of egomaniac neckbeard, or the person getting killed instantly is a masochist.

 

I have not read anywhere in any article or Development statement about Blade and Soul that it is a "PvE Game". The PvP is there for a reason.

 

And yeah, Stone age. Games in which players who never PvP at all can simply gear up in raid equipment and obliterate people without even trying are not using good PvP systems. PvP does not have to be completely gear-neutral, no, but there has to be some kind of limit, or else your PvP community is shattered and nobody new can enter it. It's an inferior system. Bad for both the players, and the developers trying to get new people to play so they can make more money.

Edited by Karst

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Shukran   
10 hours ago, Karst said:

I don't even care if they balance gear in Battlegrounds or not, I just want to at least be able to get PvP Gear that is good for PvP and puts people on a more even field. The PvP equipment the game has now is a joke.

 

The fact that I can enter Instanced PvP and be literally instant-killed by some scrub in raid gear is unacceptable nowadays.

 

Wildstar had a good gear system for PvP. All item-levels were rounded up to 100, but your PvP-stats (PvP Defense, PvP Damage) were unchanged meaning PvP gear was better, and your gears stats were not changed either, so you could still have stat distribution builds (crit builds, tank builds, etc) so effectively your gear still did matter greatly, but it did not make you an unkillable god that one-shot-kills everyone around you because you're in raid gear.

 

As for this...

Been playing MMORPGs for around 16 years now, so please don't talk to me about "Spoiled". I've played through loads of those games where there was no gear balance at all and PvP was just a free for all. Yes it makes it rewarding when you have a crapton of gear and can one-shot people. But is that actually fun? No, not really. Not for either person, unless the person doing the one-shotting is some kind of egomaniac neckbeard, or the person getting killed instantly is a masochist.

 

I have not read anywhere in any article or Development statement about Blade and Soul that it is a "PvE Game". The PvP is there for a reason.

 

And yeah, Stone age. Games in which players who never PvP at all can simply gear up in raid equipment and obliterate people without even trying are not using good PvP systems. PvP does not have to be completely gear-neutral, no, but there has to be some kind of limit, or else your PvP community is shattered and nobody new can enter it. It's an inferior system. Bad for both the players, and the developers trying to get new people to play so they can make more money.

16 years of experience so what? every game has his own rules, u dont like or nostalgia some old game? go reinstall that old game. or look for a game that suits better your tastes.

about gear, well, do u want back some aion - pvp gear style?

u went into abyss , fight other players with pve equip (u could have anyway a better pve gear than others, due to fact that professions there could crit the recipe so u could have a better crafted weapon than most of dropped weapon around), gain  pvp credits and buy pvp armors. then what? a brat comes to abyss looking for his pvp equip and get obliterated by the ones who got it before....

 

u can choose to not play 6v6, which is like ..2% of the entire content. (random stat) . or u can throw your wallet to screen, purchase your way to endgame "raid equip" and own scrubs in 6v6.

 

meanwhile it was easier to give a gear equalized pvp enviroinement other than 1v1 and 3v3

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Fatalito   

In short, while it seems the system could benefit from having both equalized and free for all versions of the pvp BGs, on the other side so many options would dilute, thin out and spread the pvp community too far apart. Maybe the current is not the best, but at least it has samples of both equalized and gear free for all. But in the end, no option will make everyone happy. None.

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Karst   
13 hours ago, Fatalito said:

In short, while it seems the system could benefit from having both equalized and free for all versions of the pvp BGs, on the other side so many options would dilute, thin out and spread the pvp community too far apart. Maybe the current is not the best, but at least it has samples of both equalized and gear free for all. But in the end, no option will make everyone happy. None.

 

What kind of people are happy about unbalanced, PvE-gear-beats-everything PvP Battlegrounds?  Those with maxed out raid gear that can literally one-shot-kill every other player in the game and farm Battlegrounds like they're farming level 1 mobs? Do we really care if those people are happy?

 

How is that fun, or good for the game, in any way?

 

It's not a matter of "making everyone happy". It's a matter of completely unbalanced weapons and PvP balance is bad for the game and the Devs aren't doing anything about it, it seems.

Edited by Karst

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Fatalito   
4 minutes ago, Karst said:

 

What kind of people are happy about unbalanced, PvE-gear-beats-everything PvP Battlegrounds?  Those with maxed out raid gear that can literally one-shot-kill every other player in the game and farm Battlegrounds like they're farming level 1 mobs? Do we really care if those people are happy?

 

How is that fun, or good for the game, in any way?

 

It's not a matter of "making everyone happy". It's a matter of completely unbalanced weapons and PvP balance is bad for the game and the Devs aren't doing anything about it, it seems.

You can start out by delineating a plan right here in the forums with the exact additions and removals you would do to the system, or a complete change of it to whatever you feel would benefit who you'd feel deserve the benefits the most, be it the most skilled, or the most patient or whoever you think (since you can't grab everyone, you need to grab the most people). Anyway, this well thought idea can be fleshed out with points and reasons behind those points. Give the community and devs something good and logical to work with.

 

Now, this will not mean that the devs will flock to you and immediately implement your idea. But your constructive feedback will be there for them to work with if they so desire it. Devs are human like us and their minds are not infinite, so while saying that something inst't working right may help, saying why it's not working right and most important, HOW you believe it can be fixed may go even further.

 

As my own advice on how you can do this, try to avoid mentioning other games too much. Some devs prefer to work with original ideas, or at least stuff they feel is not like the rest (even if it sometimes ends up as a copy/pasta but w/e :p )

 

Anyway. That's my input for now. Not to get anyone angry. Just to try and steer people into more constructive stuff.

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Karst   
36 minutes ago, Fatalito said:

You can start out by delineating a plan right here in the forums with the exact additions and removals you would do to the system, or a complete change of it to whatever you feel would benefit who you'd feel deserve the benefits the most, be it the most skilled, or the most patient or whoever you think (since you can't grab everyone, you need to grab the most people). Anyway, this well thought idea can be fleshed out with points and reasons behind those points. Give the community and devs something good and logical to work with.

 

Now, this will not mean that the devs will flock to you and immediately implement your idea. But your constructive feedback will be there for them to work with if they so desire it. Devs are human like us and their minds are not infinite, so while saying that something inst't working right may help, saying why it's not working right and most important, HOW you believe it can be fixed may go even further.

 

As my own advice on how you can do this, try to avoid mentioning other games too much. Some devs prefer to work with original ideas, or at least stuff they feel is not like the rest (even if it sometimes ends up as a copy/pasta but w/e :p )

 

Anyway. That's my input for now. Not to get anyone angry. Just to try and steer people into more constructive stuff.

I've already placed constructive feedback on how a good PvP system would work in previous posts of mine in this thread. You're welcome to read them.

 

tl;dr either balance all gear exactly how it is done in Arenas.

OR

Balance item levels on gear but not special abilities, so that yes a powerful item with special stat distribution is better, but the gap is much smaller between new players and raid-tier players.

OR

Make the PvP weapons/items the best, by far, for PvP. That way you don't have PvE'ers with Raven weapons or whatever walking in to PvP with zero skill and zero experience somehow killing everyone in literally one hit. An extremely easy way to do this is by adding PvP modifiers to weapons.

For example, give the Galaxy weapon a huge boost to PvP Defense/PvP Damage, and the PvP Soul Shields a huge boost to PvP Defense.

 

 

There is no reason for one-shots in PvP to ever be a thing. It's simply BAD game design.

Edited by Karst

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Fatalito   
5 minutes ago, Karst said:

It's simply BAD game design.

This may be why a dev would turn away from your message. All of your message is good and helpful (I actually agreed to many of it's parts), but this will make the guys over there disregard you and your message quickly. It's a sad truth, but even if some people may not deserve it, courtesy still goes a very long way.

 

Now, I won't tell you how to conduct yourself when requesting changes here. I just want you to see that some language may reach them faster, while other will definitely make them toss anything else from you aside.

 

Anyway, I may be pushing too hard already and I don't mean to anger you, so I'll stop for now. Just remember that not everyone takes to the same words in the same way. Happy gaming. :)

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Karst   

I personally don't believe in holding my tongue or cutting my words short because they may offend somebody. I don't believe in political correctness, or whatever.

 

If the Developers find it offensive because I am criticizing their bad game design, and want to punish me for that, they can do so if they want. It's within their power to do so.

 

But if they're actually reasonable human beings, and can HANDLE criticism, then they should be perfectly capable of dealing with negative posts about their PvP system.

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Wataru   

What I'd like to know is why they keep pushing open-world PvP with factions. It's not working, little rewards, and people don't like it. Later on at some point you can only steal half a player's prestige as seen in KR.

Edited by Wataru

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