For people who don't have time for BT (Skybreak Spire)

[Wataru]

I'm fine with Skybreak Spire being challenging and something that takes some time to learn, but consider there's more to that.

 

1. You have to find a clan open to players outside the clans that are mostly in the raid group.

2. You have to be in good standing in terms of reputation and one part of that means being in certain clans.

3. Many raids will use the majority faction chat to recruit if they do get PUGs, but that leaves out the smaller faction.

4. You cannot be an owpvp'er of the smaller faction.

 

So yeah I greatly hope we'll get the alternative to Raven really soon.

[ToffyNexy]

Honestly I don't know why would this issue rise up. It's not like the other region players don't have job. I play in TW, I have job, get back at home at 7, do some DC and dailies. Raid starts at 8.30 or 9 and finish at 11, until Stage 4. For first run, of course it would take you guys more time. It took my raid 2 months before we can pass Stage 4, so we've been doing 2-4 times practice a week. Now that TW got the BT nerf, we're creating second raid for our lower DPS friends, heck even alts.

My advice is that, find people on the same timezone as you, willing to commit their free time for practice.

[FrozenB]

3 hours ago, ToffyNexy said:

. Raid starts at 8.30 or 9 and finish at 11, until Stage 4. For first run, of course it would take you guys more time. It took my raid 2 months before we can pass Stage 4, so we've been doing 2-4 times practice a week. Now that TW got the BT nerf, we're creating second raid for our lower DPS friends, heck even alts.

My advice is that, find people on the same timezone as you, willing to commit their free time for practice.

Okay, the main point of your post is to have static/same group of people/friends to do BT raid each week.

 

May I ask you that if you join a random PUG raid party with more than 80% of the players you don't know? Do you still think you can finish stage 1-3 in 2 hours? 2 hours would be just the recruiting time for all 23 members to start on 1st boss in BT in PUG party.

[TecoTek]

I feel you.

 

The hard part about bt isnt even the raid itself, it is to find 24 people for the raid ... honestly the direction BnS is going...

 

And why 24 man? 12 ppl wouldve been enough.

 

[Draelth]

4 hours ago, ToffyNexy said:

Honestly I don't know why would this issue rise up. It's not like the other region players don't have job. I play in TW, I have job, get back at home at 7, do some DC and dailies. Raid starts at 8.30 or 9 and finish at 11, until Stage 4. For first run, of course it would take you guys more time. It took my raid 2 months before we can pass Stage 4, so we've been doing 2-4 times practice a week. Now that TW got the BT nerf, we're creating second raid for our lower DPS friends, heck even alts.

My advice is that, find people on the same timezone as you, willing to commit their free time for practice.

Reality: Population is not that big + most people is alergic to commitment. Anyway, alternatives to non legendary upgrades for casual players are a good idea.

[ToffyNexy]

2 hours ago, FrozenB said:

Okay, the main point of your post is to have static/same group of people/friends to do BT raid each week.

 

May I ask you that if you join a random PUG raid party with more than 80% of the players you don't know? Do you still think you can finish stage 1-3 in 2 hours? 2 hours would be just the recruiting time for all 23 members to start on 1st boss in BT in PUG party.

I would say my raid in the first run was a "pug". We're not from same clan, totally stranger to each other, there are like 4 clans total. We took like 1 week to recruit people before actually starting the raid. Creating a discord channel, attendance book, it is that meticulous. Of course we have people leaving us, a lot actually, so we had to find replacement and luckily it didn't take long.

[Yndril]

I've read most of this thread... this far, it seems to be 4 groups of players. Also, incoming wall of text.

 

Group 1, the most vocal in this thread, the ones that have some time after work, is dedicated to this game, but simply doesn't have enough time to complete BT in a week.

 

Group 2, the second most vocal, the ones that either doesn't have much work to begin with or spend a lot of money on the game to catch up, also dedicated to this game, "doesn't have time" is just relative in their eyes, can sleep less at night or whatever they do to have more time than group 1.

 

Group 3, the "casual" players, have a lot of time on their hands (for whatever reason), some spend some money to play catch-up on gear to go BT, others grind some extra to try to catch up. These players have a varying degree of dedication, most have the time to sit in BT and wipe over and over to learn, less also have the patience or dedication to keep trying.

 

Group 4, the casual players, may or may not have much time on their hands, rarely spend money to upgrade their gear, if at all (may or may not be fine with paying for costumes). Low to medium degree of dedication, most likely have outdated gear like pre-legendary. But for most of these players, it doesn't bother them, because they are having fun anyway in their outdated dungeons. They're playing at their own pace. Some might have the time to try BT, most will not be geared enough for it. Those that do try it, will most likely have the patience to stay, but their dedication will run dry after a few wipes.

 

Group 1 is hard-workers and want to enjoy the (end-)game on their free time.
Group 2 have jobs, but basically treat the game as a job too.
Group 3 may not have (full-time) jobs, or the game IS their job (youtubers and streamers generally fall into this category).

Group 4 majority of the players, but the vocal minority. They play for fun.

 

Some might be in-between those groups or have some exceptions.

I'm mostly group 4, I don't care one bit about end-game, I'll just casually keep gearing at my own pace and enjoy the game. BT doesn't interest me, but I also got DoKV which I can enjoy playing on all my characters once a week.

 

So what I'm saying is: it does not matter which group is the majority of the players, it's the vocal majority that is heard. But it also seems that NCWest are aware of these groups, since they seem to do something for each group once in a while.

 

Group 2 and 4 didn't really care much about the legendary acc pieces, 2 most likely already had them and most 4 would not be geared enough go the dungeons to begin with (even if they were geared, most would not dare to go there). While 1 probably didn't have any luck with their little time, and 3 might not have enough gold to compete if they had a 1 or 2 to contest them.

 

The weapon streamline was definitely for group 4. Group 1 and 2 would already have legendary long ago, 3 probably just reached legendary or maybe was some way into legendary already. Group 4 on the other hand most likely had at best awakened or maybe true breeze, while a few might have had awakened or true scorpio. Though the streamline was nice for all groups if they had alts.

 

We also have some things that all groups can enjoy. For example accountbound items, like the MSP flowers (to my knowledge, the other regions does not or did not have that), helping all groups that enjoy having alts (I'm an altoholic, I have 9 level 50 chars, I can get 3-set legendary SS on several of my chars if I want to, and if I put some effort in, 8 set bonus on 1-2).

 

The only group I can readily think of that they don't much for, is group 2, but they also seem hard to displease.

[FrozenB]

11 hours ago, ToffyNexy said:

I would say my raid in the first run was a "pug". We're not from same clan, totally stranger to each other, there are like 4 clans total. We took like 1 week to recruit people before actually starting the raid. Creating a discord channel, attendance book, it is that meticulous. Of course we have people leaving us, a lot actually, so we had to find replacement and luckily it didn't take long.

Sorry to say this, but when I saw the words "attendance book", I laughed out loud because it sounds like going to school/work.

 

As I have posted my suggestions before, even they put the alternative ways (like I suggested) to obtain the raven weapon mats and soul shields. It would take months or up to a year to reach even stage 3 or 4 if players don't ever run or complete the BT dungeon once and yet some no-life or serious professional players are bashing on the ideas/suggestions and saying people are lazy. lmao...

 

Just look at the MSP, people had been complaining how hard to collect all 8 pieces of legendary soul shields from MSP, but in fact, it just takes time to collects all the plants and flowers. Bosses are easy from stage 1-3 (almost no AP requirements) and the dungeon can be done within 30 minutes with random PUG party. Yet B&S has to give out double loots on weekends just to satisfy these truly "lazy" people. 

 

It is the same for legendary accessories from DT, EC, and foundry. People complained that they never got any legendary drop after 100 or 200 runs (with like 10-20 minutes per run?). In fact, nowadays, no one even bother to bid on these legendary now because you can trade with 200 of respective items. Once again, B&S has to give out alternative ways just to satisfy these truly "lazy" people.

 

In the above cases, people can do the dungeons without any problems and the dungeons themselves are fast and easy with PUG parties. So, now with BT dungeon, just with suggesting some ideas to make the BT runs easier or giving alternative ways to obtain the raven mats, people have been shouting out and saying the players are lazy? lmao...in fact, these players are not lazy, but it is just not do-able for players with a real life.

[Charas Blade]

12 minutes ago, FrozenB said:

It is the same for legendary accessories from DT, EC, and foundry. People complained that they never got any legendary drop after 100 or 200 runs (with like 10-20 minutes per run?). In fact, nowadays, no one even bother to bid on these legendary now because you can trade with 200 of respective items. Once again, B&S has to give out alternative ways just to satisfy these truly "lazy" people.

kind of agree

 

BTW There is discord server for BT recruitment, which people maybe interested in:

https://discord.gg/AuavePQ

 

 

I just leave this here

[dualistique]

23 hours ago, FrozenB said:

Gosh, if we have trouble finding BT raid party in the most populated servers (OMC/Mushin) in NA, how can we survive in other lower populated servers (for example, me)?

 

I wish I can join yours, but I am from different server group in NA. That's too bad. Most of the discord group/clans are looking for healer/buffer classes. If no requirements, then it is usually learning run parties. Just to be clear, what's the point of alternative path when the weapon from that path is weaker than raven weapon in the long run? Who will invest time/golds into something that is weaker in general? 

 

Anyone has information about emperor weapon. Like how do we evolve from galaxy weapon to emperor weapon? What dungeons will we need to run and what mats will be needed? If the emperor weapon can be obtained easier than raven, I will just ask GM to switch my seraph weapon to galaxy even though I would lost some golds in overall upgrade. Raven weapon is completely out of question if there are no alternative ways to get the mats in my case.

The point of the alternative route is that you can still compete with Raven users without doing BT.  The damage difference isn't that signficant, and I even heard certain classes want to go to Void weapon instead of Raven.  Let's say Raven does 50k.  Void will probably give you 40k, while staying at Baleful will net you 30k. (Obviously, I'm over generalizing numbers, but that's what the alternative route is supposed to help with) 

 

And when going to Void, you can still go directly to Raven when you have the mats.  Looking at TW's upgrade path, it shows that you can convert your Void Stage 6 weapon to Raven Stage 6 when you have the mats available, just like you can go from Baleful Stage 12 to Raven Stage 3.  So it's not really that big of an investment loss when considering the gains you get by not being stuck at Baleful Stage 10/12.

 

I know a lot of clan numbers and people that are going to that path, because A)  They can't do BT cause of schedule but still like to do harder dungeons.  B)  By upgrading to void, they can potentially make BT even easier by skipping some mechanics using the High DPS strategy.

 

 

[Phaere]

Well confirmed we're getting Void Weapons. Upgrade from baleful / seraph 10,11,12 to stage 1,2,3. They use the same class effect as the previous weapon so it's weaker than raven weapon. The proc effect is also weaker than raven weapon.

 

At stage 6 and 9 the Void weapon can be exchanged for a raven weapon of equal rank. 

 

Its an optional path for those unable to get a static raid for BT. 

 

Edit: Void weapon will not be able to upgrade into the Kunlun weapon from Vortex Temple 24m you will still need raven for that. And to exchange void weapon for raven weapon it will still require mats from BT

[FrozenB]

On ‎24‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 5:10 PM, Phaere said:

Well confirmed we're getting Void Weapons. Upgrade from baleful / seraph 10,11,12 to stage 1,2,3. They use the same class effect as the previous weapon so it's weaker than raven weapon. The proc effect is also weaker than raven weapon.

 

At stage 6 and 9 the Void weapon can be exchanged for a raven weapon of equal rank. 

 

Its an optional path for those unable to get a static raid for BT. 

 

Edit: Void weapon will not be able to upgrade into the Kunlun weapon from Vortex Temple 24m you will still need raven for that. And to exchange void weapon for raven weapon it will still require mats from BT

So, what's the point if we still need to get the mats from BT raid in the end? Easier to do BT dungeon with higher AP from alternative weapon? The problem in my case is time schedule and forming static raid party. It is never been the DPS issue.

 

Joined discord to find recruitment in my server there, but guess what....it is been 3-4 days now, not even a single reply or PM to me after I post my class and stats and available dates/times for BT raid there. I can see people are actively looking for buff and healer classes in most of the servers. They even take these 700AP+ classes and I have 810+ AP. Suck to be my class.

[RevelatioN]

I have a lot of time.. But where is the other 23 man? I never do it with 750AP.. 

 

I guess the servers need to be rejoined one more time.

[FrozenB]

Wow...now, people start to sell BT raids with an entrance fee!!!!!!

 

WTF is wrong with this game? We have to pay the entrance fee for up to 500-1000g just to clear all 4 stages of bosses in BT? (that excluded the bidding on the items/loots).

 

Who the hell can have this much golds to spend just for like 50g and few feathers from weekly BT quests without swiping their credit card? This game is literally P2W game now?

 

Now, I see why this game population is declining. It is not because of company's management, it is because of player's greediness.

[dualistique]

1 hour ago, FrozenB said:

Wow...now, people start to sell BT raids with an entrance fee!!!!!!

 

WTF is wrong with this game? We have to pay the entrance fee for up to 500-1000g just to clear all 4 stages of bosses in BT? (that excluded the bidding on the items/loots).

 

Who the hell can have this much golds to spend just for like 50g and few feathers from weekly BT quests without swiping their credit card? This game is literally P2W game now?

 

Now, I see why this game population is declining. It is not because of company's management, it is because of player's greediness.

Just like food festivals.  You pay an entrance fee to get in and then pay more to eat the food inside.  It's nothing new, and all MMOs tend to have something like this.  They want to make it worth for the group to gain money for the time spent.  Obviously this isn't targeted for the normal players, so I don't see the problem with that.  It's the same concept as if someone were to ask me to teach them how to draw or do design.  I would charge for my time/skill spent.

[FrozenB]

9 hours ago, dualistique said:

Just like food festivals.  You pay an entrance fee to get in and then pay more to eat the food inside.  It's nothing new, and all MMOs tend to have something like this.  They want to make it worth for the group to gain money for the time spent.  Obviously this isn't targeted for the normal players, so I don't see the problem with that.  It's the same concept as if someone were to ask me to teach them how to draw or do design.  I would charge for my time/skill spent.

At least this is the first time happening in this game. I understand the entry fee concept because all the mats and legendary accessories are non-tradable. It is just like when foundry dungeon came out, the sealed forging orb was very expensive too that kept people farming in there. 

 

To be honest, they pushed the content too fast that only top 10% of the players (whales) are ready for this dungeon. Also, the raven weapon makes a big imbalance in the game that everyone wants to rush for them so that they don't get behind with DPS or in battleground. They should put the raven weapon patch along with the emperor weapon patch out at the same time so that people can go either way. 

 

This is the toughest time for players who has maximum gears (without BT gears), but don't have time for BT raids. It is like an upgrade wall for them. Yes, there will be other legendary path later on, but eventually we all need to go through BT to get raven stuff for max gears. 

[RainbowDashie]

7 hours ago, FrozenB said:

This is the toughest time for players who has maximum gears (without BT gears), but don't have time for BT raids. It is like an upgrade wall for them. Yes, there will be other legendary path later on, but eventually we all need to go through BT to get raven stuff for max gears. 

and till then there will be the bt nerf (nearly no mechanics for all stages) and you will have overall more dps, so it should be easy doable then. 

[AlanWake]

7 hours ago, FrozenB said:

 

This is the toughest time for players who has maximum gears (without BT gears), but don't have time for BT raids. It is like an upgrade wall for them. Yes, there will be other legendary path later on, but eventually we all need to go through BT to get raven stuff for max gears. 

 

this is EXACTLY my case! i have highest gear,also leg soul,got gold for BT gear but cant use it!

 

iam stuck with my gold and with my current DPS which is very low compared to BT gear. after spending WEEKS of getting a group for BT and then ANOTHER few weeks of wiping stage 2,you cant blame me or anyone to just give up this raid. looks like this game gone to a road of: able to raid = high dps / not able to raid = low dps.

 

if in some time from now BT will get HUGE nerf and able to just F7 it like MSP,then it will be ok.

[FrozenB]

On 3/28/2017 at 7:29 AM, RainbowDashie said:

and till then there will be the bt nerf (nearly no mechanics for all stages) and you will have overall more dps, so it should be easy doable then. 

Um...how to have more dps without having raven gears? There will be better legendary gears later on? Then, how are we able to get those gears without having raven gears? It is just step by step. You can't just jump the steps (unless they put all raven gears in trove events in the future, but it is very unlikely.)

 

The simplest nerf for BT is just to remove the black firewall after the raid started the boss (simple little programming for this game). So, all the people can keep coming back to kill the boss within the enrage time. People still need to learn the mechanics of each boss because if the mechanics are not done properly, it is still a party wipe or the boss is non-killable.

 

It is just like MSP. If MSP has firewall around the turtle boss after the battle started, stage 5/6 would be very hard to do as well just like BT raid. Even for stage 1-4 in MSP, people would ask for 700AP+ for clear if there is firewall in there.

[RainbowDashie]

3 hours ago, FrozenB said:

Um...how to have more dps without having raven gears? There will be better legendary gears later on? Then, how are we able to get those gears without having raven gears? It is just step by step. You can't just jump the steps (unless they put all raven gears in trove events in the future, but it is very unlikely.)

 

The simplest nerf for BT is just to remove the black firewall after the raid started the boss (simple little programming for this game). So, all the people can keep coming back to kill the boss within the enrage time. People still need to learn the mechanics of each boss because if the mechanics are not done properly, it is still a party wipe or the boss is non-killable.

 

It is just like MSP. If MSP has firewall around the turtle boss after the battle started, stage 5/6 would be very hard to do as well just like BT raid. Even for stage 1-4 in MSP, people would ask for 700AP+ for clear if there is firewall in there.

1. skill revamp next patch, bracelet next patch, mystic badge next patch. All this 2 items will give you more dps. Also you could go the non raid path and switch to raven at stage 6, means even more dps.

 

2. 1. Boss just spawn 4 adds

     2. Boss doenst heal much when cc fail

     3. Boss doenst even have a mechanic after nerf (aside from knock up)

     4. Boss slower pizza phase and demonic energy stacks lower.

   That are huge nerfs that are comming.

[Wataru]

On 3/28/2017 at 7:29 AM, RainbowDashie said:

and till then there will be the bt nerf (nearly no mechanics for all stages) and you will have overall more dps, so it should be easy doable then. 

That's mostly apply to the 3rd boss. Just saying.

[RavTH]

bt is a waste of time if you plan to spam it for w/e, if you do want to spam it do it with a clan that can be  working together as organized group in voice chat/call.
 

[FrozenB]

50 minutes ago, RainbowDashie said:

Also you could go the non raid path and switch to raven at stage 6, means even more dps.

I assume that you still need the raven mats from the BT raid to switch from non raid path to raven at stage 6, which means that we still have to clear BT raid no matter what.

 

Not sure why they nerf the bosses like that. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just remove the firewall? To be honest, I found the mechanics of each BT boss is quite simple and fun to do, but it is just hard for other 23 people to do the same thing without dying (like no spike lags, no ping issues, no random disconnects, no accidental mistakes, etc.) It is harder than opening 100g from daily challenge chest.

[RainbowDashie]

1 hour ago, FrozenB said:

I assume that you still need the raven mats from the BT raid to switch from non raid path to raven at stage 6, which means that we still have to clear BT raid no matter what.

to get the BiS weapon yes, to be able to do next content no. You wont need Raven anytime soon, you are able to participate in auto lab also with the alternate path, vortex temple is irrelevant for you, vortex related raids are irrlevant for you, ebondrake lair is also doable with alternate path.

 

So for what do you realy have to clear the raid? Just for the BiS weapon and you dont want to put some effort to get it? I mean after that dps increase + nerfed mechanics you should be able to clear all 4 bosses even in a pug group.

[FrozenB]

15 hours ago, RainbowDashie said:

to get the BiS weapon yes, to be able to do next content no. You wont need Raven anytime soon, you are able to participate in auto lab also with the alternate path, vortex temple is irrelevant for you, vortex related raids are irrlevant for you, ebondrake lair is also doable with alternate path.

 

So for what do you realy have to clear the raid? Just for the BiS weapon and you dont want to put some effort to get it? I mean after that dps increase + nerfed mechanics you should be able to clear all 4 bosses even in a pug group.

It is never been a DPS problem. It is about CCs, survival, and random disconnects problem, especially for a huge 24-m group. Even I can do CC, survive without any problems, and no disconnect, if there are more than 3-4 people who can't accomplish it, it is a party wipe. I am sure we all experienced in PUG party in 4m or 6m party in F8 before where some players screw up CCs, or disconnects/lags, but the chance is alot lower in those cases because 4m or 6m compared with 24m? 4X-6X higher chance to fail the dungeon. In addition, like I mentioned, the real problem is the firewall. In MSP, we didn't complain about the raid because even if some players were disconnected somehow during the battle, they can quickly log back in and continue the fight with the group. In BT, it is completely different.

 

What do you mean I won't need Raven anytime soon? Of course, everyone want to get the most current gears ASAP. At least I don't want to keep getting 1-2 hit KO from players with raven gears in battleground whereas I did only 20-30% of his/her damage. Also, I am not asking for them to give our Raven gears for free in a week or so for the entire time. I just hope that they can do something for the people who don't have a static group or clan to run BT raid every week. To be honest, it is just suck to be in the wrong clan for the entire time. If I am in the big clan from the beginning, then I would have an easier life in 24-m raid party. Seeing a 680AP players having legendary accessories already from BT dungeon just because he/she is in a big clan whereas 810+ players in a small clan still searching for new BT raid aimlessly each week, this game is just pathetic.