Criston

Why isn't there a Tanking/Healer design

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Criston   

    This is a question that I have thought about for a while now and am looking for input from the Community about it.  I have played several MMOs now and this one could be amazing to me.  It is great already in many ways, Until you start team/party quests.  I am really unhappy with the design of the classes when it comes to party play.   There isn't a tanking class that can get and hold aggro while others beat down the boss.  Now, I would not have given this much though if the second Dungeon hadn't shown me that this is something that seemed to be needed.  The Final Boss in Tomb of Exiles has such wonderful AoEs that I watched as health dropped insanely fast on the whole team.  I watched as a FM got aggro and was utterly destroyed before they could even think about what they needed to do next.  I have seen a BD get slaughtered because they pulled aggro.  Now, here is where a tanking class would be helpful.  A tank doesn't mean that the team will win, it means that the team simply has a player in there that will be able to hold the aggro of a Boss or Mob so that the other three can work towards taking them down.

     Now, there can never really be a tanking class without a healing class.  Again, though I have seen some heals in the game, they are really weak and sadly very slow.  It wouldn't have even been brought up until I ran the supply chain and realized that there were Two level 43 characters in the run with us.  They couldn't run up walls yet and they couldn't hold their own in a Mob.  I am level 48 and still can't solo through all the Mobs in there, so anyone thinking a Level 43 is going to just waltz in and handle the Dungeon isn't thinking clearly.

     If the team actually took out ALL the Mobs, sure, they could stick close behind and try to get a few hits in, but, that isn't what the teams do in the Cross Server Dungeons.  They run up walls, fly over Mobs and generally leave anyone behind that falls behind.  This isn't a good design for helping a new person to the Dungeon at all.

     Enter a tanking class and healing class, the tank could easily hold aggro against the Mobs and allow the newer and lower level members a chance to actually fight through them as the healing class would help make sure they didn't die instantly.  Yes, it's a rather old design but it has worked well enough that it is what most people would consider the Norm for all MMOs of this design.

     I feel that the Destroyer class would be a great tanking class, just give them a high base threat and a few good threat generators and a good damage reduction and you have an instant tank.  The Healing class is up for grabs, though I would think the Force Master would be the best one for the role.  

    I am looking for input and Opinions about this as I only know what I would like to see happen and therefor could never speak for anyone else in the game. Please, allow me to know how you feel about this idea and give your input, even if it's negative,  about the idea of having a dedicated tanking and healing class. 

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You are new here I guess.When the game first came out it was praised for not having a tank/healer,so there won't be roles that needed to be filled.That was a lie, in endgame everyone is always looking for a tank,which is usually a bm, and at most endgame there are roles that only specific classes can fill.Sin/summoner=stealth which without it you can't do some dungeons.As for heals summoner can heal quite well if he is specked for that.Destroyer is a forgotten class ,it doesn't do as much dps as bm so why would someone choose them when bm can tank and dps a lot more.

 

*Also this is a 5 year old game no dramatic changes to classes will ever happened.

Edited by MasterYoda

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There are 2 tank classes and they are Blade master and Kung fu Master.  Both classes have skills that will increase their threat when used.  There just isn't any healing class because when you do the mechanics of the fight correctly and learn how your class works you shouldn't need to be healed.

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16 minutes ago, Dark Falz said:

There are 2 tank classes and they are Blade master and Kung fu Master.  Both classes have skills that will increase their threat when used.  There just isn't any healing class because when you do the mechanics of the fight correctly and learn how your class works you shouldn't need to be healed.

The same can be said for all mmos that have healer classes, if you do mechanics right u dont need heal, also there is a healer class summoner can heal quite well

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Shukran   
25 minutes ago, MasterYoda said:

The same can be said for all mmos that have healer classes, if you do mechanics right u dont need heal, also there is a healer class summoner can heal quite well

trinity mooorpgs always needs healings. mechanics are healing included

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slowcow   

You musn't review the game and judge it after only doing 2 very early game dungeons when there are over 30 dungeons in this game. Level 1-level50HM4 is basically just questing and tutorial to the game so too early to be judgemental. This game has tanks as mentioned above, Blade Master and KungFu Master, Summoners can be considered as healers to an extent and Soul Fighers also got pretty meh heal.

 

But you will not see classes fullfilling a role till later in the game where stuff actually gets hard and people are more skilled with their honmoon abilities and skilled in general with their class. You will never see a HM4 tanking and holding aggro in supply chains, nor any fresh HM4's heal or tank at all.

Edited by slowcow

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1 hour ago, Criston said:

    This is a question that I have thought about for a while now and am looking for input from the Community about it.  I have played several MMOs now and this one could be amazing to me.  It is great already in many ways, Until you start team/party quests.  I am really unhappy with the design of the classes when it comes to party play.   There isn't a tanking class that can get and hold aggro while others beat down the boss.  Now, I would not have given this much though if the second Dungeon hadn't shown me that this is something that seemed to be needed.  The Final Boss in Tomb of Exiles has such wonderful AoEs that I watched as health dropped insanely fast on the whole team.  I watched as a FM got aggro and was utterly destroyed before they could even think about what they needed to do next.  I have seen a BD get slaughtered because they pulled aggro.  Now, here is where a tanking class would be helpful.  A tank doesn't mean that the team will win, it means that the team simply has a player in there that will be able to hold the aggro of a Boss or Mob so that the other three can work towards taking them down.

I am assuming reason why you feel this is because at early levels people do not really read their skills that much to know what their class can do as you haven't inspected the other class' purposes. Blade Master and Kung Fu Master are primarly made into tank classes who can keep aggro and help the whole party to DPS the bosses. Also not to mention any class can tank nearly any boss as long as the player knows the boss' mechanics and their own class.

 

1 hour ago, Criston said:

Now, there can never really be a tanking class without a healing class.  Again, though I have seen some heals in the game, they are really weak and sadly very slow.  It wouldn't have even been brought up until I ran the supply chain and realized that there were Two level 43 characters in the run with us.  They couldn't run up walls yet and they couldn't hold their own in a Mob.  I am level 48 and still can't solo through all the Mobs in there, so anyone thinking a Level 43 is going to just waltz in and handle the Dungeon isn't thinking clearly.

Also this is depending of your class and level. All the classes can have heals of their own with either gems or skills that help them out in the journey to higher levels. Though there are two classes who can work as healers but I don't think the healers are such you would expect. No they cannot spam endlessly healing skills only to work as such. Summoners and Soul Fighters have amazing healing skills that can heal either over time or instantly up to 60% of a player's HP. Any more than that it would be pointless to have pvp mode in the game that is depending on gears if you had healers in party as Summoners already might make things beyond hard.

 

At lower levels it might be hard for you to see that there is no need for such tank or healing classes when the dungeon are long and the best method is to run past them until you lose aggro or that you gather all of them in one group just to bust them down. The higher your gears the easier this gets. What we have now is already in my opinion more than enough to survive dungeons.

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52 minutes ago, MasterYoda said:

The same can be said for all mmos that have healer classes, if you do mechanics right u dont need heal, also there is a healer class summoner can heal quite well

This is not true.  I main healer on ffxiv and even if everyone does the mechanics perfectly the tank will die if the healer doesn't heal them.   Fights in those games are made to require healers.  Fights in BnS are not.

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BnS is just a different MMO.  I prefer it not to have a trinity class system.  If I wanted something like that, I'd go back to FFXIV or play some other MMO with it.  BnS class system is fine how it is and it's made for players to do mechanics while being active in combat.  If there was a sole healing class, this game would just be boring since no one would die and people would just brainlessly face tank things while DPSing and bypassing mechanics.

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Dad   

It doesn't matter anyway if you have a healer or not, later on raids if you slip up once it's all over, full hp or not you will die regardless.

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ZDestiny   
4 hours ago, Criston said:

 The Final Boss in Tomb of Exiles has such wonderful AoEs that I watched as health dropped insanely fast on the whole team.  I watched as a FM got aggro and was utterly destroyed before they could even think about what they needed to do next.ain, though I have seen some heals in the game, they are really weak and sadly very slow. 

 The Healing class is up for grabs, though I would think the Force Master would be the best one for the role.  

 

 

No trinity system and hopefully they stick to it. Healing is a minor factor in this game. It's about understanding how to dodge/block an attack which compensates the need for a healer. As well mechanics to prevent major dmg to yourself or the rest of the party.

 

I play FM and I tanked every boss in this game so far (that doesn't require specific mechanic triggers to tank). And no it's not hard, If you learn the basics of your class and the boss rotations you can dodge 90% of all attacks by walking out of the AoE. It's all up to the player whether he/she is willing to try learn the basics of their class and then try execute it. Believe it or not, many players I met so far lack effort to learn the basics.

 

Bold part, No thanks.

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dashrem   
5 hours ago, MasterYoda said:

The same can be said for all mmos that have healer classes, if you do mechanics right u dont need heal, also there is a healer class summoner can heal quite well

MMOs with defined roles have massive amounts of unavoidable damage, so a healer is required. This game does not. You can go an entire boss fight without taking (severe) damage if you're situationally aware. They also have the Dragon Blood for those that really like to stand in crap.

Edited by dashrem

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Zuzu   

Guessing this post is about not having a trinity system while other MMOs have it.

Honestly, I prefer BnS's non trinity system since it doesnt exclude certain classes; something I've seen in other MMOs that has the trinity system. At least BnS's system teaches you how to dodge, counter, block, etc at the right times rather than mindlessly face tanking everything and just getting healed.

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Blade Master and Kung Fu Master are the tanks. They have plenty of threat build skills. I've taken aggro and held it over quite a few others who have close to 700ap while I'm at 563ap.

Healers are Summoners, Soul Fighters, and yourself. Summoners have a party heal every 30secs. Soul Fighters can spec for 30secs or 1min. All other classes have skills that can heal themselves. You also have gems that can proc recovery/life drain. On top of that, you have HP potions and resists/dodges.

If people are dying to groups of mobs or take aggro of a boss, then maybe they shouldn't rush in first/back off a bit.

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9 hours ago, Criston said:

 1   This is a question that I have thought about for a while now and am looking for input from the Community about it.  I have played several MMOs now and this one could be amazing to me.  It is great already in many ways, Until you start team/party quests.  I am really unhappy with the design of the classes when it comes to party play.   There isn't a tanking class that can get and hold aggro while others beat down the boss.  Now, I would not have given this much though if the second Dungeon hadn't shown me that this is something that seemed to be needed.  The Final Boss in Tomb of Exiles has such wonderful AoEs that I watched as health dropped insanely fast on the whole team.  I watched as a FM got aggro and was utterly destroyed before they could even think about what they needed to do next.  I have seen a BD get slaughtered because they pulled aggro.  Now, here is where a tanking class would be helpful.  A tank doesn't mean that the team will win, it means that the team simply has a player in there that will be able to hold the aggro of a Boss or Mob so that the other three can work towards taking them down.

 2    Now, there can never really be a tanking class without a healing class.  Again, though I have seen some heals in the game, they are really weak and sadly very slow.  It wouldn't have even been brought up until I ran the supply chain and realized that there were Two level 43 characters in the run with us.  They couldn't run up walls yet and they couldn't hold their own in a Mob.  I am level 48 and still can't solo through all the Mobs in there, so anyone thinking a Level 43 is going to just waltz in and handle the Dungeon isn't thinking clearly.

 3    If the team actually took out ALL the Mobs, sure, they could stick close behind and try to get a few hits in, but, that isn't what the teams do in the Cross Server Dungeons.  They run up walls, fly over Mobs and generally leave anyone behind that falls behind.  This isn't a good design for helping a new person to the Dungeon at all.

 4    Enter a tanking class and healing class, the tank could easily hold aggro against the Mobs and allow the newer and lower level members a chance to actually fight through them as the healing class would help make sure they didn't die instantly.  Yes, it's a rather old design but it has worked well enough that it is what most people would consider the Norm for all MMOs of this design.

  5   I feel that the Destroyer class would be a great tanking class, just give them a high base threat and a few good threat generators and a good damage reduction and you have an instant tank.  The Healing class is up for grabs, though I would think the Force Master would be the best one for the role.  

    I am looking for input and Opinions about this as I only know what I would like to see happen and therefor could never speak for anyone else in the game. Please, allow me to know how you feel about this idea and give your input, even if it's negative,  about the idea of having a dedicated tanking and healing class. 

1   That is false, there are tanking classes that can hold aggro. For example, kfm has skills that can be spec'd for threat along with bm. Heck summ can taunt for days. Even as a BD depending on performance I can tank with the best of them at times. The issue arises when people would rather dps then do anything else, or don't know what they are doing. Perhaps you didn't play with one of the classes OR more likely since you don't seem aware of the tank classes, the ones you did play with weren't spec'd for it. Which unless they were alts who wanted to tank I doubt they would be. As for your example with Tomb, the question would fall down to if they were new players or people with alts. But even more so did any of them use their dodges? Did the BD have any resist skills or Q, E at least some of the attacks? Did the FM move out of the way of attacks? did they just run around in a circle? I have no idea the lvls or gear we are talking here but by the way you describe the answer would probably be no. Even with all that you get hearts as a fail safe. 

 

2   This is wrong tbh. A good kfm, BM, Destro, summ, etc need no healing class. Granted gear, the dungeon and their overall game performance plays into it. I will admit the heals at the start are kinda meh and the good good heals are kinda further down the line. But that is where skills, cc (daze, stun, grabs, knock down", gems, and the occasional potion comes in. But who is thinking anyone will waltz in there? It's a dungeon, meant for more then 1 player. Unless your at least somewhat decently geared, nobody should expect much of anything.

 

3   This right here doesn't fall down to an issue with the design. It falls down to an issue with the community and those players. Getting the ability to run up walls in well within reach at those lvls if iirc. If they went in unprepared for it, how does that show fault to design? If people decided not to help those people, how does that fall down to bad design? That shows that 1. people weren't willing to help at the time, and 2. those people didn't have all the tools to make things easier. Also did those people speak up and say they didn't have wall run? or did they silently say nothing and try to go through? Did the people with wall run already go through the motions of doing it and gliding over? then then the others tried to run through? As I ponder it I believe you actually need wallrun to get out of the Slashimi area so those without it shouldn't even be there to begin with. 

 

4  This could be true for people in general. Once again people helping people out. That issue right there falls down to folks not willing to help, not bad design. 

 

5  Destroyer is a tank class.....well tankier. Idk the class just needs jesuz at this point xD. We also have healers already. Summoner and I believe Soul Fighter? don't really play the 2nd one so won't say more on it. Thing is, this game gives you many ways to be more self sufficient. The community at large unless premade go for the burst route. There are classes for what you are asking for however not everyone plays them as such. 

 

My opinion is that you gotta play a bit more into the game so you can run into folks who know what they are doing. Or watch a vid about the classes showing how they can do what you ask when people play them as such. Would offer to show you myself with my kfm alt but I haven't been able to do a dungeon in days with these lag spikes ; ~;

 

 

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9 hours ago, Zuzu said:

Guessing this post is about not having a trinity system while other MMOs have it.

Honestly, I prefer BnS's non trinity system since it doesnt exclude certain classes; something I've seen in other MMOs that has the trinity system. At least BnS's system teaches you how to dodge, counter, block, etc at the right times rather than mindlessly face tanking everything and just getting healed.

Honestly ever did endgame here?

You need specific classes else you can't do the dungeon at all.

Everywhere I look it's looking for tank/stealth specific roles insteadof healer you have to have sin.Nothing different from other games you still need a specific class to do that dungeon only it's not heal it's stealth.

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Zuzu   
2 minutes ago, MasterYoda said:

Honestly ever did endgame here?

You need specific classes else you can't do the dungeon at all.

Everywhere I look it's looking for tank/stealth specific roles insteadof healer you have to have sin.Nothing different from other games you still need a specific class to do that dungeon only it's not heal it's stealth.

I've been at endgame and you don't NEED a tank(BM and KFM specifically) to do any of the current dungeons. It's real nice to have a KFM/BM but you can do fine without one, any class can tank; I'm speaking of purple dungeons, not Black Tower before anyone tries to comment on that. Anyways, that's just people's preference on them wanting a tank.

 

However yes, only one dungeon needs(or its highly recommended) a specific class but that does not exclude other classes from joining. Some of the MMOs I played that had a trinity system often falls under wanting Tank/Healer/DPS/DPS, etc and they would want only the highest DPS classes, any other class that's not the highest is generally rejected. But that's just my experience.

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Wataru   

A lot of dungeons don't need tanks and that's a good thing. You mention Tomb and the final boss doesn't need a tank, but having a marker stay around the same area does help the ball eaters. I came from Guild Wars one and there were tanks, but they were useless and slow outside of exploitation of skills that Anet refused to nerf. Balling foes is fine, but you don't need to be tank in order to do that. Tanks are the most dull boring trash I've ever try when I did. I'd rather be deeply involved with the combat. 

 

Not having the holy trinity is what made me wait forever for this game and why I still play. Don't wanna die? Play better.

 

Tank 'n spank games are a dime a dozen. No struggle to find one. I don't know why you'd want to infect this game with that cancer anymore than it has.

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1 hour ago, Zuzu said:

I've been at endgame and you don't NEED a tank(BM and KFM specifically) to do any of the current dungeons. It's real nice to have a KFM/BM but you can do fine without one, any class can tank; I'm speaking of purple dungeons, not Black Tower before anyone tries to comment on that. Anyways, that's just people's preference on them wanting a tank.

 

However yes, only one dungeon needs(or its highly recommended) a specific class but that does not exclude other classes from joining. Some of the MMOs I played that had a trinity system often falls under wanting Tank/Healer/DPS/DPS, etc and they would want only the highest DPS classes, any other class that's not the highest is generally rejected. But that's just my experience.

I agree with this. With high APs it doesn't even anymore matter if you have stealth in EC and you can quite fine do without a root in NF as long as you know how to keep the boss close to middle without having roots. Also I agree with that with enough experience any class CAN tank. I have had so many runs of DT/EC/NF where FM, WL, BD, Sin or Sum were tanking.

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Nekonata   
19 hours ago, Criston said:

 

You will need to break free of the generic MMO idea that is on your mind. BnS is not your generic MMO. At least not concerning the trinity system.

 

- This game has tankers - blade masters and kung fu masters respectively have a +150% threat generation buffs. In a party of equal gearing, they will be holding aggro (if they spec skills for tanking and use them). However, tanks in this game are not the classes that facetank damage. Tanks are classes, like any other, that DPS while doing extra things. They have to block and iframe like the rest. Their job is to hold the boss in place and keep the rest of party safe. Are BMs and KFMs absolutely required? No. Any class can tank.

*destroyer has a small +50% threat generation buff, suitable only for short off-tanking, I haven't seen anyone use it.

*summoner's cat can taunt boss

 

- This game has healers - summoner and soul fighter. However, healing is not their priority, it is just an extra skill. They DPS and contribute to party with other abilities, like the rest of classes. Summoner is the MVP when it comes to overall party survival support. Are SUMs and SFs absolutely required? No. A good party that does mechanics, blocks and iframes won't take that much damage. Healing tonics are enough in that case.

 

-This game has buffers - KFM (fighting spirit buff, tremor buff, searing palm buff), assassin (fighting spirit buff, popular name is blue buff), warlock (soulburn buff). Not absolutely required, good to have.

-This game has party utility  - projectile protection (bm, sum, sin, fm), party iframes (bm, sum, sin, fm), restraint grab (BD and destroyer), CCs (every class)

-every class can deal damage

 

You have to understand that at low levels people don't realise their party utility yet, especially if they are new players. This game wasn't designed to require any specific class, except maybe 1 or 2 for new content.

Edited by Nekonata

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XO   

lol so many disregard soulfighter D: Ive seen them tank + they have their heal + a mass aoe res that doesn't require them to die to use it

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crowtor   
2 hours ago, XO said:

lol so many disregard soulfighter D: Ive seen them tank + they have their heal + a mass aoe res that doesn't require them to die to use it

This+

SF's are perfectly capable of being a tank, if you know your class. So why isnt there any tank/healer in this game? Answer is, there is. It's the SF.

Edited by crowtor

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Ganhur   
6 hours ago, MasterYoda said:

Honestly ever did endgame here?

You need specific classes else you can't do the dungeon at all.

Everywhere I look it's looking for tank/stealth specific roles insteadof healer you have to have sin.Nothing different from other games you still need a specific class to do that dungeon only it's not heal it's stealth.

Assuming you are not including the latest 24m raid.

 

You really don't need specific class to enter any dungeon at all. I had a 700ap Force Master to tank for Naryu Foundry.

As for Ebondrake Citadel, FM, BM, BD can actually compensate for the lack of stealth with their party protection, that is if none of them are paralyzed by the darts which is simple to do in 6m, 4m on the other hand is a bit tricky but doable. To sum up, you don't have to be that picky with your team. The traditional tank/healer (and stealth?) make the mechanic a lot easier but not necessary when it comes to being overly picky and wasting time to look for a specific class.

Edited by Ganhur

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