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rootkit gameguard is not accceptable and is against the laws in some EU countries


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1 hour ago, Reaper00 said:

It isn't illegal if you agreed to install it, which you did when you accepted the terms and conditions.

 

Also an antivirus program operates like a rootkit as well and those aren't illegal either.

Oh how far wk's will go to defend the indefensible. Lets wait and see how this plays out. I have a feeling the terms and agreements doesnt cover the nefarious new GG incarnation we all recieved yesterday. Its behaviour more closely resembles a virus than an anti hack program. 

 

Also, game guard is like an anti virus now cause anti virus are root kits? Nice reasoning there.

 

Thats a stretch bub. A long one.

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1 hour ago, Reaper00 said:

It isn't illegal if you agreed to install it, which you did when you accepted the terms and conditions.

 

Also an antivirus program operates like a rootkit as well and those aren't illegal either.

Actually they don't have the right to ask you to install it if it operates in an illegal way.

Edited by MassiveEgo
typo
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45 minutes ago, Mortal Kombat said:

Oh how far wk's will go to defend the indefensible. Lets wait and see how this plays out. I have a feeling the terms and agreements doesnt cover the nefarious new GG incarnation we all recieved yesterday. Its behaviour more closely resembles a virus than an anti hack program. 

 

Also, game guard is like an anti virus now cause anti virus are root kits? Nice reasoning there.

 

Thats a stretch bub. A long one.

Good luck with that then. most online games have had similar software to gameguard installed for at least the past 5 years now. To date I'm unaware of any of the publishers being successfully prosecuted/sued over it. But hey, maybe you know something that every gamer for the past 5 years doesn't.

 

Also, nothing wrong with my reasoning. The OP was implying that a program that operates like a rootkit is illegal. I merely pointed out that there are other programs that do that and aren't illegal. 

 

PS : Not defending gameguard, just pointing out that it isn't illegal!

Edited by Reaper00
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The problem is that there IS no EULA or anything like that on the installer that you can see. When people get the installer they install the main launcher which updates itself. The first you see of Failguard is when it pops up as you launch the game. I personally have been hostile to the bloody thing ever since I saw it screwing with my computer back when I tried L2 and then later the Aion beta. The fact that it is UTTERLY pointless and easily defeatable by end users because it can be accessed and thus reverse engineered by the same said cheaters shows this kind of crapware is useless no matter what NC try saying to the contrary. If anything this malware only serves to deny legitimate players from playing the game such is its impotence.

 

Any one remember this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal

This is why people like myself are so hostile to this kind of software. The fact that it hides itself from the task manager is a problem in itself, when it malfunctions and it bloody well does in older OS's like windows 7 it screws with machine performance can cripple the machine and because its hiding itself we cant manually terminate the bloody thing without restarting our system. Even when the game has been closed it can hang there in some machines and in the worst cases it can corrupt the OS breaking it or even screw with graphics software and ultimately cause it to suffer failure in some cases. It's completely unpredictable because on some machines it will do little but on others it wreaks havok.

 

Also I saw this before as well

https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/microsoft-pays-woman-10000-over-forced-windows-10-install/

Its related in a sense that people might install the game without knowledge of this program since its not seen anywhere and if it breaks someones OS or computer I can bet you the legal eagles will be circling pretty quickly.

 

The fact is there ARE EU laws against this kind of software because of how its deceptive, unpredictable and generally damaging. We all dislike cheaters but we dont agree with this approach its the approach of lazy arrogant and incompetent companies that cant be bothered to rely on more effective server based anticheats or the kind of sofware that stays WITHIN the client itself and not interacts or hooks onto other processes in the computer it has no buisness with interacting with.  The bigger issue that I myself would have is if exploits that use this start appearing to hack peoples systems. Thats when people really get pissed.

 

NC have been using failguard since last year. it was pulled twice to the joy of the community only for them to put this crap back in later on. For most of the year GG wasnt even updated it was the same version for ages. There was only 1 update recently that I noticed before this but this latest update is probably the most hostile in a long time theres quite a few threads here alone not because of the 64bit client but GAMEGUARD and theres already 5 threads on reddit about it too.

 

NC we know your reading this but stop hiding already and pull this crapware off the game. Your shooting yourselves in the foot, annoying ALL of us, ruining the game and doing noone any favours. At least acknowledge you messed up and take this crap away we all like the game, we all hate cheaters but rootkits and malware is the dealbreaker when its passive it was one thing but this aggressive crap is going too far.

Edited by Raiya
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I'll answer you with an anecdote so you know exactly what the situation is:

It's illegal to sell drugs here.

It's still illegal to sell them even if the buyer agrees to buy. The buyer is basically agreeing on the demerits of the deal, but that doesn't make it any less illegal than it already is.

Edited by MassiveEgo
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10 minutes ago, Reaper00 said:

sure. can you point me in the direction of the law that says installing anti-cheat programs is illegal then?

To follow up on massives analogy, you can call game guard an anti cheat program to make it seem less deviant if you wish.

 

Same way one could call an illegal narcotic "medicine". 

 

It does not however make it any less nefarious, nor illegal. 

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Just now, Windy said:

Stop paying subscription. This will draw their attention faster then you can imagine.I feel revolted.Denying my administrator rights in my own pc IS not legal ! 

Its funny, this is exactly the same scenario that took place a year into Aions release. Aion forums around the web, including the official one were filled with complaints and flames regarding game guard. Eventually NC relented and removed it from the NA client.

 

You'd think they'd learn their lesson by now. After all, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

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22 minutes ago, Mortal Kombat said:

To follow up on massives analogy, you can call game guard an anti cheat program to make it seem less deviant if you wish.

 

Same way one could call an illegal narcotic "medicine". 

 

It does not however make it any less nefarious, nor illegal. 

Actually it does. Several countries have exemptions for medicinal marijuana.

 

That's besides the point though. Massive's analogy was bad anyway as it's using an item that is against the law in any context (other than the one i mentioned above). A better one would be :

 

if someone breaks into your house, sits on your sofa and watches your TV then that's illegal. If you invite someone into your house to sit on your sofa and watch TV then that is not illegal. If you do not like how that person is behaving once they are inside your house you can ask them the leave and if they do not then that is illegal. If they leave without a fuss then that is not illegal.

 

Now to put that into the context of the game : You agreed to install gameguard as part of the game. If you don't like what it does, you can uninstall the game. If it doesn't uninstall gameguard when you uninstall the game then you have a legitimate issue with NCSoft.

 

But hey I'm not a lawyer. If you feel that strongly about it go lawyer up and let me know how far you get. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong when I see that pic of the massive settlement/damages check you receive!

Edited by Reaper00
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You missed the point by a wide margin. If you have a program that behaves like a root kit and this kind of software is forbidden for use and distribution in the EU, that's that. It won't magically become something else when it's behaving exactly like a root kit and with this said, it is by all means illegal. Whether you agree to install it or not, NCSoft have a problem since they broke the law by distributing a root kit application. They must either MAKE it not behave like a root kit, or remove it. Or pay money. So basically they need to fix it proper or remove it xD

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16 minutes ago, MassiveEgo said:

You missed the point by a wide margin. If you have a program that behaves like a root kit and this kind of software is forbidden for use and distribution in the EU, that's that. It won't magically become something else when it's behaving exactly like a root kit and with this said, it is by all means illegal. Whether you agree to install it or not, NCSoft have a problem since they broke the law by distributing a root kit application. They must either MAKE it not behave like a root kit, or remove it. Or pay money. So basically they need to fix it proper or remove it xD

Two options: Remove all programs with rootkit behavior from PC. Of course, bye bye BnS and almost every single MMO and antivirus and many other programs. Second is: prosecution on NCWest and maybe few hundreds other companies. Choice is yours.

Edited by Lerialis
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Reaper stop white knighting your arguments have little water when it comes to rootkits. The real issue is how its disrupting peoples systems and not doing what its supposedly meant to do. It causes more trouble than it solves and at worst it breaks systems entirely. It has to go.

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5 minutes ago, RanMaster said:

Overly evasive anti-cheat software that hides from your process lists was not listed or asked to agree upon, when installing the new patch...
Since when was that legal?

Game guard still shows in your process list with the latest patch. Client.exe which is the game, doesn't show. Besides, there isn't a law that says every program must show in your process list, so yeah still not illegal.

 

Anyway I give up. Clearly you people know better than a company who's business it is to distribute software that you install on your PC and who would undoubtedly have lawyers of their own. So good luck to you all then!

Edited by Reaper00
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15 minutes ago, Reaper00 said:

Game guard still shows in your process list with the latest patch. Client.exe which is the game, doesn't show. Besides, there isn't a law that says every program must show in your process list, so yeah still not illegal.

 

Anyway I give up. Clearly you people know better than a company who's business it is to distribute software that you install on your PC and who would undoubtedly have lawyers of their own. So good luck to you all then!

Clearly, you don't see the obvious discord in the community, and still trying to justify your non existent point.
This was a huge a mistake, and crossed a boundary beyond what gaming companies are allowed to install on your PC.

Sony did it with their CDs back in 05, and Capcom did it with SFV PC version.
It was borderline illegal, highly invasive, and potentially dangerous... So they both had it reverted.

Having a process not show on a default Process Manager, makes it an evasive process, acting pretty much like Malware.
Hogging resources, and creating unconventional methods to terminate a program is not what players signed up for.

 

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I would like to add my 2 cent.

i have a recent computer 1500€ + (just the tower = non including screens, keyboard, mouse) and i cant get more then 50fps in dungeon and lagging like hell in MSP...

Not only Gameguard is illegal in my country (france) and i plan to make a query to DGCCRF and CNIL.

But also there is only 2 kind of peoples .... 
First, the legitimate players that have insane lags, fps, ping mostly due to gameguard.
Secondly, the illegitimate players that are bypassing gameguard on day1 and cheating like no tommorow while enjoying no ban or lag/fps/ping problems.
( There is that bot in soulstone plain with speedhack for nearly 2 month (since i started playing) and he never been absent a single day while hundreds of players reported him.)

So basicaly Gameguard is not only useless but actually crippling the experience of legitimate players. Please remove it ! 

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2 hours ago, RanMaster said:

Having a process not show on a default Process Manager, makes it an evasive process, acting pretty much like Malware.
Hogging resources, and creating unconventional methods to terminate a program is not what players signed up for.

 

100% correct.

 

If a program is hiding its own or other Processes, its using the WindowsAPI. Which is considered  to hide System Processes which should'nt get ended by the normal user / aka You !

 

But Gameguard / nProtect is using this to force the game to close if a hacking program changes something in your memory.

(Street Fighter V did the same with their anti cheat and got criticized heavily.)

The Problem with this is, that the engine from NCSoft itself didnt had this implemented. First of all they didnt ask us in generell if we want to declare GameGuard as an official Rootkit/Administrator. We just said that we  , of course, agree with THEIR Eula and Terms and Conditions, which not include the GameGuard rootkit update.

Implementing a Anti Cheat Software which has Administrator Rights, which can erase your computer in less than 2 secounds or spy the cricket out of your Privacy is hell of a dangerous topic.

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3 hours ago, Reaper00 said:

Now to put that into the context of the game : You agreed to install gameguard as part of the game. If you don't like what it does, you can uninstall the game. If it doesn't uninstall gameguard when you uninstall the game then you have a legitimate issue with NCSoft.

 

But hey I'm not a lawyer. If you feel that strongly about it go lawyer up and let me know how far you get. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong when I see that pic of the massive settlement/damages check you receive!

Hmm I guess maybe I should point it out here that uninstalling BNS does not uninstall gameguard from your PC.

If you want to uninstall gameguard, just uninstalling BNS won't do it. You have to go into your computers registry and manually remove it yourself.

 

So even though you're white knighting, you still just pointed out another aspect of how gameguard IS an issue.

Edited by Kami Sama
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3 hours ago, Kami Sama said:

Hmm I guess maybe I should point it out here that uninstalling BNS does not uninstall gameguard from your PC.

If you want to uninstall gameguard, just uninstalling BNS won't do it. You have to go into your computers registry and manually remove it yourself.

 

So even though you're white knighting, you still just pointed out another aspect of how gameguard IS an issue.

+1

 

Completely forgot this issue. No matter how anyone tries to spin it, GG is now legit malware. Even the steps required to remove it are the same, nevermind its behaviours.

 

NCSoft revert or remove. Choose wisely.

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