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Zero reasons to have destroyers in raid


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Aaaaaand here we go again.

Lets take a look at this nice guide by bnsacademy.

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http://www.bns.academy/skybreak-spire/

Suggested raid composition:

4 warlocks, one for each party

3 tanks (bm or kfm)

4 blue buffs, one for each party (assassin or kfm)

4+ party iframes one for each party (assassin, summoner, force master, blade master, blade dancer) note: avoid putting multiple iframes that share a global cooldown in the same party (e.g. blade master and blade dancer)

4+ healers one for each party (summoner, soul fighter)

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assassin - check

blade dancer - check

blade master - check

kung fu masters - check

force master - check

soul fighter - check

summoner - check

warlocks - check

destroyer (???) - not even mentioned aka big middle finger to all of you axe-guys.

There is literally NOTHING destroyer can bring to the raid except his low dps. Unless destro is twice better geared than any other raid member, there absolutely is no point of taking them into group. The only possible role for destro is "filler-dps", but it cant be even "filler-dps" since it has LOWEST DPS, so ANY OTHER CLASS would do better.

 

So I am here again to say BIG "THANK YOU" to all NC soft/west employers. Problem was noticed at march, nearly year ago at Asian servers and several month later at NA/EU. There was plenty of feedback pointing you towards class problems and what?

What has been done? Literally nothing, except some minor tweaks, some dark build *fixes* and almost whole year of non-stop buffing of damn blade dancers. Like they really need that buffs.

 

Now we have 2 classes -

one with low dps and totally useless at raid

and another with good dps, useful raid utility (aka party iframes) and better QOL at everything they can do like cc, survivability, grabs, mobility.

 

Seriously does it look balanced to you???  Blade dancer completely outshine destroyer in EVERY ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ aspect of gameplay.

 

So my final suggestion are:

1. Rename class to "Weak and useless zero utility wet noodle striker"

2. Change class weapon to broom to make ppl stop questioning about big axe and low damage.

3. Destroyer should be male lynns only. If the class is unwanted and weak it should look unwanted and weak. (c) Worst dest NA

4. Give destroyers party version of "red buff" aka fury. Give destroyers their exclusive utility. Yes, its like blue buff, but red. Of course it should be a bit weaker than solo version. Destroyers MUST HAVE some exclusive useful utility for party and raids.

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Just pointing this out. Des can reach high DPS if played correctly. My friend is playing des and he sometimes even if momentarily overdps me (summy) with pretty much same gears. Just pointing this out also: des' grab is superior to BD's grab due to the 100% success in critting.

 

But other than that I agree that des is pretty weak compared to other classes. It is not tank class, nor really dps nor heal/iframe support. They need something else also than strength in 1vs1 pvp. Their strongest aspect is their grab and in raids they can't utilize even that fact, except if you need ccer.

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A party version of fury and/or persistence actually sounds like a pretty good idea to me. 
Persistence can be a destro party iframe, and it suits the role destroyers supposedly seem like they're supposed to have with the really under-powered support utilities of green ember-stomp or certain stone shield specs. Maybe something like all party members iframe the first hit and are CC immune for 5-seconds? 

 

Party fury could have a few tweaks to give it an offensive push like fighting spirit and soulburn, but with it's own sort of utility. Making it like the destroyers double-edged self buff would be dangerous since you could troll people by tanking their def just before they're hit, so maybe it could still just be self-sacrificial but give other party members boosted attack or guaranteed crits or something. 

 

 

Another thought is possibly letting destroyers inflict the restrain debuff without grabbing (and this usable on most bosses) allowing more DPS on it, with a global CD on the debuff like with soulburn. It seems like the unavailable HM skill Lightning might allow something similar to that? 

 

 

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Your list is only for ideal situation. If there is a 860+ AP destroyer applied to your raid party, will you ignore him and add a 550-600 AP warlock or classes with blue buff? I would choose the destroyer for higher DPS.

 

A good destroyer can have high DPS in PVE. It is dependent on how you use it. Also, if you have shitty PING, then it doesn't matter what classes you use, you still do low DPS. 

 

Seriously, why do people keep on comparing destroyer with blade dancer? If you think blade dancer is good, just re-roll to it. If not, just stfu and wait for new patches from KR.

Finally, if you did low DPS in PVE, it just means you suck. Practice more and learn your class.  

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I have not one BUT TWO destroyers in our 1st raid. The reason for that is both players are mechanically experienced and learn extremely quick, basically you tell them you do this and this and they will just do it, i have another 22 players to move around for other roles. They are reliable CCers as well, and on top of that they dish out more dps than some bms/wls etc. so I reckon it comes down to the player more than the class. Don't get me wrong tho, destroyers at the state it is atm is not at its prime state i would say.

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I have seen 750-800ap destroyers do 80-90k dps in our current version of MSP so i dont think that is low at all...problem is many destroyers try to play both utility and dps at the same time and obviously that won't work. You cant expect to outdps the "dps" classes while grabbing bosses and such...

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3 hours ago, Enoll said:

I have not one BUT TWO destroyers in our 1st raid. The reason for that is both players are mechanically experienced and learn extremely quick, basically you tell them you do this and this and they will just do it, i have another 22 players to move around for other roles. They are reliable CCers as well, and on top of that they dish out more dps than some bms/wls etc. so I reckon it comes down to the player more than the class. Don't get me wrong tho, destroyers at the state it is atm is not at its prime state i would say.

Yes, it is better than to have those lazy players (mostly buffers because they think the leader won't dare to kick them even they afk) afking in the middle of the map (turtle spawn area) while people are doing their jobs to clear mobs.

 

For other non-buffer classes, even they afk for less than a minute, they will get kicked. 

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I'm an FM, but I do think a great utility that would be good for destroyers is to make their Emberstomp a slightly larger area and make it so that any team member within the range of the emberstomp would also gain it's side effects of the heal version, or the cc reistance version, so that they become a party utility as well. This would be useful in group pvp and pve and would be something quite unique for Destroyer to have and doesn't seem OP. 

 

The red buff idea is ok too, but seems a bit redundant even as you pointed out, it's like blue buff, but red. I think I'd prefer the new utility of having the emberstomp party utility instead. But of course, that's just my opinion. 

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33 minutes ago, Leodore said:

I'm an FM, but I do think a great utility that would be good for destroyers is to make their Emberstomp a slightly larger area and make it so that any team member within the range of the emberstomp would also gain it's side effects of the heal version, or the cc reistance version, so that they become a party utility as well. This would be useful in group pvp and pve and would be something quite unique for Destroyer to have and doesn't seem OP. 

 

The red buff idea is ok too, but seems a bit redundant even as you pointed out, it's like blue buff, but red. I think I'd prefer the new utility of having the emberstomp party utility instead. But of course, that's just my opinion. 

Thank you for your kind words.

Problem is... i already suggested creating party buff version of emberstomp.

There was BIG topic more than half-year ago where I described most of destro class problems and it was there at suggestions list. Now I can say that it was completely ignored by the devs or local CMs who were supposed to send some feedback to the devs.

 

That is why now I came with party red buff attempt. Didnt want to repeat myself.

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4 hours ago, DeadlyCode said:

I have seen 750-800ap destroyers do 80-90k dps in our current version of MSP so i dont think that is low at all...problem is many destroyers try to play both utility and dps at the same time and obviously that won't work. You cant expect to outdps the "dps" classes while grabbing bosses and such...

And I have seen FM, KFM,Etc other classes doing 100k + damage with same gear stats :)

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Just now, Valiant said:

Cause BD is the clone of Destroyer, BD got a better utility and better dps while many destroyer seen such class I won't say that powerful in pve getting much love and much buffs more than Destroyer is annoying.

Special when you see other classes get buffs as well, I  did see today a 608 AP BM that is able to tank and almost out dps me with my 735AP Destroyer, In difference of 19k/s damage of mine to 18k/s damage to him, Not to mention he got a HM Immune skill that is very good Iframe for party.

 

So yes seeing other classes getting buffed and loved is annoying 

BD is actually mix of BM and destro. Its the first class that was added after game was released. Class that should never exist imo in the first place. 

Class that was absurdly buffed only because it has low popularity. And now thanks to "wise" korean balance it makes destro totally unnecessary.

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5 hours ago, FrozenB said:

 

Seriously, why do people keep on comparing destroyer with blade dancer? If you think blade dancer is good, just re-roll to it. If not, just stfu and wait for new patches from KR.

Finally, if you did low DPS in PVE, it just means you suck. Practice more and learn your class.  

Cause BD is the clone of Destroyer, BD got a better utility and better dps while many destroyer seen such class I won't say that powerful in pve getting much love and much buffs more than Destroyer is annoying.

Special when you see other classes get buffs as well, I  did see today a 608 AP BM that is able to tank and almost out dps me with my 735AP Destroyer, In difference of 19k/s damage of mine to 18k/s damage to him, Not to mention he got a HM Immune skill that is very good Iframe for party.

 

So yes seeing other classes getting buffed and loved is annoying 

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9 minutes ago, Valiant said:

Cause BD is the clone of Destroyer, BD got a better utility and better dps while many destroyer seen such class I won't say that powerful in pve getting much love and much buffs more than Destroyer is annoying.

Special when you see other classes get buffs as well, I  did see today a 608 AP BM that is able to tank and almost out dps me with my 735AP Destroyer, In difference of 19k/s damage of mine to 18k/s damage to him, Not to mention he got a HM Immune skill that is very good Iframe for party.

 

So yes seeing other classes getting buffed and loved is annoying 

The only things BD has in common with destroyer is it can spin and grab.... how is that a clone?  They don't play similarly in the slightest.

 

I've seen every class fail at soloing yeti with over 700 ap because they aren't doing enough dps, and a destroyer succeed with sub 650.  According to your logic there that means destroyer is the strongest.  What you can do and what you've seen others do doesn't mean they're playing the class to the maximum potential it can be played, just as other people can't always play their class perfectly all the time and think if they rerolled they'd be better.

 

Destroyer got a HUGE party dps buff in the form of restrain grab, and yes it is better than a BDs in the average party, do an actual comparison and you'll see that people critting 95-100% of the time vs 50-70% of the time during the grab is a large difference.  I've had people do more damage in 1 grab on my destroyer than using both on my bd purely because of the crit losing the RNG factor.

 

I've saved countless people in dungeons/msp who run out of iframes simply because even if you run out of iframes on a destroyer you have your defense spin that makes you almost invincible, or your taunt that forces targets onto you every 12 seconds, a shield that reduces damage by 50% for 8+ seconds, and the revival cage.

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In every des vs bd post i see same argument : ye destro grab is better cause crit.

where the fk did u get this from ?

Here's the actual 2 skill : http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/642430grabskill.jpg

Where do u see difference ? exept that bd grab dont need any cc and pierce def/parry ? And that bd have reset grab, and can dps during it. It's definitely bad, and when there's a bd and a des in a party, if u wanna optimize dps the bd do it. (also restraint skill is better on des)

Destro have decent dps during fury and sb with the ground aoe hm skill that give +20% on lb rb, with a good lb/rb macro,  out of that it's lower than any other class, that's why u see good dps (but still lower than other class) on raid when boss die during sb

Only good thing destro can bring to a raid is the revival cage, but then, u need people to die, they're not supposed to. (also it's not exclusive, fm  have same shield (which also grab to your position so it's better) and summ can immune you during the entire time of rez which is also better)

I'm not sayin destro has bad dps out of nowhere, i have 4 char similiray geared, and in any situation, des pve is definitey the lowest, by far. (at least it's good in pvp)

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Said said:

BD is actually mix of BM and destro. Its the first class that was added after game was released. Class that should never exist imo in the first place. 

Class that was absurdly buffed only because it has low popularity. And now thanks to "wise" korean balance it makes destro totally unnecessary.

I know it a mix between both , It was supposed to be the first hyper class between two classes like SF.
But as we can see it already is getting to the point of perfection beside this two classes, And I don't think it was low popularity I remember back in China server and here many people was playing BD and even now many more play that class.
 

 

2 hours ago, TJXX said:

The only things BD has in common with destroyer is it can spin and grab.... how is that a clone?  They don't play similarly in the slightest.

 

I've seen every class fail at soloing yeti with over 700 ap because they aren't doing enough dps, and a destroyer succeed with sub 650.  According to your logic there that means destroyer is the strongest.  What you can do and what you've seen others do doesn't mean they're playing the class to the maximum potential it can be played, just as other people can't always play their class perfectly all the time and think if they rerolled they'd be better.

 

Destroyer got a HUGE party dps buff in the form of restrain grab, and yes it is better than a BDs in the average party, do an actual comparison and you'll see that people critting 95-100% of the time vs 50-70% of the time during the grab is a large difference.  I've had people do more damage in 1 grab on my destroyer than using both on my bd purely because of the crit losing the RNG factor.

 

I've saved countless people in dungeons/msp who run out of iframes simply because even if you run out of iframes on a destroyer you have your defense spin that makes you almost invincible, or your taunt that forces targets onto you every 12 seconds, a shield that reduces damage by 50% for 8+ seconds, and the revival cage.

Sir , First of all you must know that BD is hyper class between BM and Destroyer so that called cloning something and mixing it with other thing.

Second Solo yeti ? There was tons of videos of Assassin ,FM, Summoner, Etc other classes when the players on average of 500 to 580AP soloing Yeti by themself and you tell me a destroyer of 650ap soloing it ?

And back to grab part , We talking here about a 24-man raid, This topic talk about something like Midnight bosses where you can't grab at all mean grab is useless.

So having pure dps and pure party Iframe is what important, Which Destroyer fail at both sadly that why it wasn't mentioned.

 

Second let's talk about the defense spin that makes me invincible ? That cost 20 focus when I have no way of regain focus, Beside BD got same spin with extra immune skill so yah.
 

And taunt skill ? It doesn't taunt anything beside KFM and BM taunt beside I won't lose my second KD just for a taunt skill.

 

Wanna know what make BD better than destroyer?

They can cast one skill and bomb 2 cc of same time, They got immune, They got same amount of defense spin and many ways to regain focus for it, Better dps skills,, They can dps during grab.

 

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What I find totally mindblowing about these discussions is that there are still people who try to defend or find positive aspects to current Des situation in pve.

 

Taking 2 destros in your raid because they are smart/skilled guys ? How is that even a relevant argument, it's obvious you'd rather these same 2 players on ANY other class.

Picking 860+ AP des over 550-600 AP Warlock ? Why would a reasonable person ever compare the viability of someone straight out the storyline to someone who dedicated months, if not years now into the game.

Picking Des over BD for some extra crit rate on a utility that can even be rarely executed ? Not going to happen.

 

Not even gonna go into the "good des can do good dps" thing because that's just plain nonsense.

 

Destroyers will always have the worst utility and never be top dps, thus they will never be "good". It's as easy as that.

Reroll and make your game experience better. There's no other choice.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, GenericNick said:

 

 

Not even gonna go into the "good des can do good dps" thing because that's just plain nonsense.

 

 

And let's add something to that, First of all Jonath the current GM in NA did admit on twitter that destroyer is the weakest  class.

Second and let' s put it clear here, Destroyer dps combo is like this (That if using smash badge) RMB/LMB-->Emberstomp/Fury-->RMB/LMB---Smash to active another LMB Wrath--->repeat 

So what could a good Destroyer do ? Using a macro mouse ? Well still game have a limit on the speed of casting.

 

See a word like "good des can do good dps" is useless, Cause any person can do that combo easily.

 

Here a photo of my Destroyer a 735AP , 5k Crit, 2k Crit Damage, With a galaxy weapon stage 3 and no legendary accessories at all and no hongmoon power buff.

 

Where I was out of a good fighting spirit and Soulburn buff 

rvfs4m.png

 

That was my best I could with all of this buffs and Destroyer power, Notice that other member having a lower gear than mine.
 

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What do you expect to have? 42k/sec dps with only galaxy weapon stage 3 and nothing else. It is okay to good DPS already. You want 80k/sec? You know 80k/sec is only possible with with blue buff + SB + legendary accessories + stage 6 legendary weapon. To go over 100k/sec, you will need the buff from hongmoon soul (close to max stage).

 

When you posted alot of posts saying destroyer is weak, I thought you have like 10-15k/sec dps or less only. 40-60k/sec is normal. Even for BD at MSP with blue buff and WL buff, I never see a BD can hit over 70k/sec DPS. I have seen some 60-70k/sec DPS. Maybe a BD with max gear and max soul can hit over 100k/sec, but that is for whale player only. Maybe BD needs another boost according to your theory.

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1 hour ago, FrozenB said:

What do you expect to have? 42k/sec dps with only galaxy weapon stage 3 and nothing else. It is okay to good DPS already. You want 80k/sec? You know 80k/sec is only possible with with blue buff + SB + legendary accessories + stage 6 legendary weapon. To go over 100k/sec, you will need the buff from hongmoon soul (close to max stage).

 

When you posted alot of posts saying destroyer is weak, I thought you have like 10-15k/sec dps or less only. 40-60k/sec is normal. Even for BD at MSP with blue buff and WL buff, I never see a BD can hit over 70k/sec DPS. I have seen some 60-70k/sec DPS. Maybe a BD with max gear and max soul can hit over 100k/sec, but that is for whale player only. Maybe BD needs another boost according to your theory.

Sir, I know what you mean here that why I did mention that I don't have hongmoon power buff or legendary accessories.
 

But I talk about a Destroyer who got the maxed stuff sadly can out put as max dps is range of 80k/second that even was mentioned by a guy early in this post, But other classes and I mean it I saw  a FM who was doing 110k/second with less powerful and even as you said a whale BD can go for 100k/second but whale Destroyer will never reach that power at all.

 

So in long whale term or in the normal term as you could see cleary, Destroyer is the bottom of dps no matter what Yes there could be a different of 6k/second between destroyer and other classes some will say it doesn't matter, But I say it does matter special in mushin tower for example, Tower of infinity .

And trust me if I was doing something wrong with my Destroyer, I won't make posts for no reason

And btw who do a 60k/second with destroyer having an awakened hongmoon at least

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Long range classes like FM always can do higher DPS than melee classes because they can hit while the boss is in the air or at a distance (from 0m all the way to like 7-8m or further). Melee classes can't attack boss when they are in the air or when they are out-of-range (further than 3m). So, there goes some DPS losses for few seconds. 

 

That's why I said your DPS is FINE with 43k/sec without hongmoon power buff or legendary accessories. I am assuming that you have SB and blue buff when you took the screenshot. Also, I see that you have around 182ms PING on your screenshot. This DPS output is actually quite good with this high PING. I have similar PING as yours and i only can do around 45-60k/sec DPS with SB and blue buff. Plus, I already have legendary accessories + stage 6 legendary weapon. I have a friend playing BD as well with similar gear as me, but have like 60-70ms and he always out DPS me by around 10k/sec.

 

As I said, I haven't seen a BD dps for 100k/sec. It is just my assumption. Probably whale BD can do it when the awakened soul buff procced at the right time.

 

Also, every player is different. For example, combo sequence, equipments, stats, PING, FPS, etc. Everything counts for DPS output. 

 

OKay, by your defintion, what DPS output is normal for a destroyer with your situation? Also, if you have legendary accessories + stage 6 legendary weapon, you should reach about 55-60k/sec. WIth awakened soul, you should have over 100k/sec because that bonus buff is over 400+ AP. That's 80-90% damge increase, plus the critical damage and AP increase in the buff. 

 

 

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Wait you are comparing a dps for a fraction of a fight that takes like 10sec? That FM must be damn bad with blue buff and SB to cant put even that much dps (dragonchar with SB and bb hits over 50k, and you do 3 dragonchars per second which is 150k/sec with around 690ap) Compare the dps in a long fight (like turtle stage5/6 (thats the only particularly good way to see how good you are in the dps scale). BS requires at least 30k dps without sb and bb that can be acomplished by classes under 700ap even.

 

Destros are gods in pvp (both 1v1, 3v3 and 6v6) and any kind of buff on them to give them more power may result in them being broken OP in pvp. Thats why there are no significant buffs on them pve wise for now (you may say look at BM nerfs in pvp, what nerf exactly? :D that particular "nerf" is barely noticable).

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1 hour ago, FrozenB said:

Long range classes like FM always can do higher DPS than melee classes because they can hit while the boss is in the air or at a distance (from 0m all the way to like 7-8m or further). Melee classes can't attack boss when they are in the air or when they are out-of-range (further than 3m). So, there goes some DPS losses for few seconds. 

 

That's why I said your DPS is FINE with 43k/sec without hongmoon power buff or legendary accessories. I am assuming that you have SB and blue buff when you took the screenshot. Also, I see that you have around 182ms PING on your screenshot. This DPS output is actually quite good with this high PING. I have similar PING as yours and i only can do around 45-60k/sec DPS with SB and blue buff. Plus, I already have legendary accessories + stage 6 legendary weapon. I have a friend playing BD as well with similar gear as me, but have like 60-70ms and he always out DPS me by around 10k/sec.

 

As I said, I haven't seen a BD dps for 100k/sec. It is just my assumption. Probably whale BD can do it when the awakened soul buff procced at the right time.

 

Also, every player is different. For example, combo sequence, equipments, stats, PING, FPS, etc. Everything counts for DPS output. 

 

OKay, by your defintion, what DPS output is normal for a destroyer with your situation? Also, if you have legendary accessories + stage 6 legendary weapon, you should reach about 55-60k/sec. WIth awakened soul, you should have over 100k/sec because that bonus buff is over 400+ AP. That's 80-90% damge increase, plus the critical damage and AP increase in the buff. 

 

 

But KFM and BM can do amazing work for a melee classes beside Destroyer.
I know how the bonus for hongmoon work and I saw many high rank destroyer use it, Still they didn't reach that 100k the best they could reach was around 60 to 80k roughly.

 

1 hour ago, GenericNick said:

Yeah this is what I was talking about.

 

How did that screen enable this much of a discussion, it means nothing. Next thing people will say is that destro is OP dps because they saw 2 of them top the meter at stage 1 turtle.

 

Clueless.

 

That Screenshot took from my account, I did want to show that how my dps was  lower than KFM and Warlock that has a lower gear than mine.
 

 

58 minutes ago, NightFer said:

Wait you are comparing a dps for a fraction of a fight that takes like 10sec? That FM must be damn bad with blue buff and SB to cant put even that much dps (dragonchar with SB and bb hits over 50k, and you do 3 dragonchars per second which is 150k/sec with around 690ap) Compare the dps in a long fight (like turtle stage5/6 (thats the only particularly good way to see how good you are in the dps scale). BS requires at least 30k dps without sb and bb that can be acomplished by classes under 700ap even.

 

Destros are gods in pvp (both 1v1, 3v3 and 6v6) and any kind of buff on them to give them more power may result in them being broken OP in pvp. Thats why there are no significant buffs on them pve wise for now (you may say look at BM nerfs in pvp, what nerf exactly? :D that particular "nerf" is barely noticable).

FM was bad because he was 600 ap and I was around 720ap back then, 
 

Anyway Destroyer isn't God in any pvp really, Look at tournament and just see any noticeable Destroyer been on top 3 last 3 years, you would find none.
Last tourment the first 3 ranking is SF, BM. FM.

And if you say destroyer could be broken in pvp with a buff, Then what about a class that grab you twice without cc, Spam immune or class that is tanky and able to hit you with min. of 16k damage or maybe a powerful healing class or maybe a master of evade and IFrame like SF and KFM or maybe you talking about class that take horns go in a high speed hide buff and got 2 escapes while able to make damage that is twice better than Destroyer ?

 

Destroyer isn't broken beside this classes really, The Destroyer best they got a red spin which require tons of focus and have a wide open windows between that could result in stunning the destroyer himself. Yes that bad.

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