This is Legendary Soul in 6v6 (instant kills) ^_^

[Leodore]

I'm a HM10 FM, 126,000+ hp, nearly 2.6k crit def, 4k def, 2k block, 2k evasion, 700ap, 2k piercing, 3.5k crit, etc etc etc. 

I rank among the top 20- top 10 in both 6v6 FMs

 

I'd like to think i'm not complete trash at this game in pvp, however, I do need some advice.

 

Just a disclaimer, this is not a whining thread, this is genuinely an open discussion and concern I have regarding 6v6 pvp content and the recent gear releases. 

 

I just had a couple of matches against 2 different Blade Masters in multiple matches that had lvl 10 legendary hongmoon soul, maxed out galaxy weapon, full legendary pet, maxed out legendary accessories, etc etc. 

 

TTK (time to kill) in this game has been pretty dependent on the gear and stats of course, but still relied on player skill to a degree.  I need advice on how to combat (at all) someone like this (the tankiest class in the game keep in mind) and (of course let's not forget their spammable click super damage skill), now combined with something as epicly powerful as the hongmoon soul. Before, you could at least CC, distract, do some kind of damage, or survive long enough to do anything. Let's not forget the idea of soulburn, blue buff, etc etc in the mix too (which was not the case for me in the following example). The scene I just experienced was the following.

 

Team CC's BM, BM tabs, puts up invuln shield, does one group CC, does 3 dragon tongues, and literally insta kills me, and 3 other team mates (because dragon tongue is an aoe). Because I couldn't wrap my mind around what I just witnessed, I checked my battle log, 30,000 - 60,000 damage mouse button attacks. I died in less than 3 mouse button clicks with my stats. This brings TTK to less than 1.5 seconds... This continued to happen for the entire match. The player had 27 kills, his teammates had 2 collectively among them, nearly 3million damage dished out by just the one player (it would be higher, but nobody had the chance to heal or use any healing skills that could potentially increase your life span). This scene repeated multiple times as my luck would have it, that I'd get matched up against this player multiple times in a row. Then finally I get a round without him in my match, and bam there was another BM with very similar gear, and it happened again. Team mates were logging out, afking, etc etc very quickly once they saw they could die in 1-3 seconds from a single player just using a single skill 2-3 times. Some accused the player of hacking, etc etc, but when I pointed out to them to look at his gear and they saw the legendary soul and the max'd out weapon lvl, and the buffs that it gives, they stopped talking, and I think they all kinda realized what the future of 6v6 was going to look like soon. 

 

So, three things I want to discuss. 

 

Any advice is welcome (of course I know the response of "git gud" and "just upgrade your soul to legendary" is going to pop up somewhere). 

1. How are we to even pretend to compete with this? 

 

2. Since this is how it's going to be apparently, let's imagine a full team of random classes with this Soul versus another full team of random classes with this soul. Literally everyone will die in 1-2 seconds of encountering another player. It will come down to who has the better invulnerability skill, so they can mitigate the dmg the opponent is dealing that will kill them instantly as well. The first person who's invuln shield drops = dead.  I've admired this game for it's engaging pvp (even as an FM, I enjoy the extra challenge I suppose), however, the direction the game is moving towards for a while until more defensive gear, stats, or skills are available so that people won't die instantly (whether you have the soul or not, if you get attacked by someone with it, especially BM, you are going to die insanely fast). It becomes a game of "quick draw" old western style, which does not seem like an engaging or entertaining form of PVP in a game like this. As a side-note, this particularly frightens me as an FM, as the only invuln shield we have is practically a self CC, that heals a little bit of HP if the opponent doesn't rage attack you (even with the 20% hp heal soul badge), and the moment the shield times out, of course you are instantly dead anyways, so it looks very bleak for FMs in 6v6 pvp (as if FMs weren't already super low on the leaderboards). 

Anyways, what is your opinion?

Is this something the player base in regards to pvp actually wants (specifically the nearly insta deaths)? 

 

3. I know that we have some new defensive centered accessories that everyone seemed to scoff at like they were a joke, however, It's looking like these might be a necessity for pvp at all as people continue to get more of these soul's in their server. Looking at the stats and running the numbers on these, they will help a small bit, but they do not come close to bringing a balance between damage and defense. The TTK will go from 1-3 seconds, and will be increased to 2-5 seconds (depending on the classes matches). This is of course based on a single encounter of 1v1 in 6v6, if you introduce another player on either side into the skirmish, the time to kill of course drops down to 0.5 - 2.5 seconds (even with the new defensive based legendaries).

What kind of build do you think is even possible to survive this type of situation that will become the new 6v6 meta to actually have a fight, instead of insta death quick-draw style shoot outs? I'm sure as more people experience this situation happening to them (since it's semi-rare at the moment as not many people have it yet) Is there any chance with our current gear, soul shields, classes, skills, etc etc to prevent this from happening (in an ideal world where we could instantly have our dream gear, only using gear and things available currently in our version of the game)?

 

Personally,I'm gonna stay out of 6v6 for a little while, and wait for these players to get much higher in rank (or get bored because instakilling people can only be entertaining for a limited time before it becomes monotonous, I hope). I'm going to pray to RNGesus that these players don't intentionally derank, and haunt the lower ranks (I worked hard for my ranks, but i'd rather not be a higher rank at all, if that's what my matches are going to be from now on). 

 

What are you personally going to do? Queue and hope that this type of players is on your team for a super easy carry? Perhaps, do the same as I am with waiting in hopes they rank out of your range, or you derank low enough to not have to see them soon? Maybe you enjoy this idea of insta-deaths and this is motivating you to go max out your gear even quicker so you can spam kill each other waiting on each other's invuln shields to drop? 

 

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this, and please keep it peaceful, educational, informative, and don't flame players that have this gear already, as whether you have this gear or not yet, you will die that quick to someone else who has the same gear or not, so they will likely feel the same way as other people once they get insta-killed by someone geared similar to themselves with maxed out things, and I can't imagine them enjoying that feeling of helplessness either (the only consolation they have however, is that they can do the same thing back to their opponent). 

 

Good luck, and happy hunting ^_^

[Zerecas]

I doubt it will pose the same threat to you if the Stage 10 soul user is a FM to begin with..

[Leodore]

23 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

I doubt it will pose the same threat to you if the Stage 10 soul user is a FM to begin with..

mmm, yea, it does lolol, it's exactly the same threat :P I can only speak on behalf of myself of course, as I'm an FM :P The other people in my parties were not all FMs and dealt with the exact same scenario ^_^

 

It's just basic math, and is an interesting development that we will all soon experience and I'm looking for insight, advice and discussion regarding it. I don't imagine that anyone particularly desires their pvp to minimize to basically use invuln, and watch things die instantly, or die instantly yourself. :/

[Zerecas]

8 minutes ago, Leodore said:

mmm, yea, it does lolol, it's exactly the same threat :P I can only speak on behalf of myself of course, as I'm an FM :P The other people in my parties were not all FMs and dealt with the exact same scenario ^_^

 

It's just basic math, and is an interesting development that we will all soon experience and I'm looking for insight, advice and discussion regarding it. I don't imagine that anyone particularly desires their pvp to minimize to basically use invuln, and watch things die instantly, or die instantly yourself. :/

Thing is, not every classes is capable of executing fire BM dps of wiping enemies off the surface that fast as you stated.

The threat is varies from classes to classes, some classes can easily exhaust their mobility escape or iframe skills like Warlock for instance, compared to BM with all its flying blade and HM block and stuff, it isn't even comparable.

[Leodore]

6 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

Thing is, not every classes is capable of executing fire BM dps of wiping enemies off the surface that fast as you stated.

The threat is varies from classes to classes, some classes can easily exhaust their mobility escape or iframe skills like Warlock for instance, compared to BM with all its flying blade and HM block and stuff, it isn't even comparable.

Very valid point, however, almost all classes have the ability to a burst attack of some sort (even FM, with multi blaze, which i worry for other classes, because if they get caught in the aoe of that, and they take 2 of the possible 5 hits, they will surely die instantly as well). Some classes will need to perform a small high dmg combo with a mix of CC thrown in there if needed, but their opponent will die pretty instantly as well. It's not just BM's that will be able to delete people very quick like this, but all classes seem to have the potential, which again poses the concept of quick-draw style pvp. The current gear out does not seem to permit a build that can counter this in any way to bring any form of survivability beyond invuln shields and frames, multiply this by 6 people vs 6 people and it's going to be interesting to see how people adapt to this (if it is even adaptable in it's current state). 

[Draelth]

Well Bloodlust only balance 6vs6 around gear so I guess when more equipment become aviable things will get better (not perfect, they need to lure people to invest time and/or money with gear), however IMO what they should do is turn off all legendary procs along with some changes about how % healing works.

 

Anyway, 6vs6 is more like a "silly" mode, not something that anyone should take seriously because is broken in a lot of ways and right now Bloodlust is tryharding to balance arena to make this game a real E-sport material.

 

If you are really into PvP focus on arenas (3vs3 are a lot of fun) and keep doing 6vs6 from time to time.

[NightFer]

Dont like it? Dont play it! There are people with big wallets (usually those suck in every other content) which will spend money just to get some advantage. But let me tell you this: later on a much more powerful weapons and soul and soulshield and bracelets are going to come out and they will be the first ones to cry that they want compensations or w/e else they want. Let them enjoy their "uber gear" and laugh at them in dungeons, at least thats what I do :D

[Leodore]

6 minutes ago, NightFer said:

Dont like it? Dont play it! There are people with big wallets (usually those suck in every other content) which will spend money just to get some advantage. But let me tell you this: later on a much more powerful weapons and soul and soulshield and bracelets are going to come out and they will be the first ones to cry that they want compensations or w/e else they want. Let them enjoy their "uber gear" and laugh at them in dungeons, at least thats what I do :D

Perhaps I miscommunicated something, but this is not a "i don't like it" post, this is a "let's make an observation and discuss" post. I am genuinely just concerned for the enjoyment of all players (including those who have this gear, as they are enjoying the domination now, but soon they will also be victims to the same treatment), and it'll become what i called a western style quick-draw pvp area. Which I would be completely surprised if people actually enjoy this when it comes to that point. If they were to have released a way to bring the TTK back up, then you'd only be effectively separating it into tiers of people who have it (it'll be pvp as normal, but with larger numbers showing on the screen and interesting dynamics due to the procs, and classes playing differently that normal), and people who don't. Instead, it'll be more of a (if i attack you first, you insta die, if you attack me first, I insta die), which seems very boring. I quite enjoy the 6v6, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, and this change in dynamics so dramatically into the crazy high damage range, but not having an equalizer in defense to survive such an attack makes me worry for everyone who enjoys this content, as it'll steadily become indistinguishable from what we currently know and enjoy about it. Then again, maybe people will absolutely love the "tag, you're dead" style pvp that is soon to come for all players (including the super whales), and maybe i'm completely wrong to even worry about the entertainment value of actual pvp that isn't over instantly. Maybe people will enjoy spending their time staring more at respawn screens more so than combat time, but I have a feeling that I'm not wrong about this, and it is something to openly discuss. Maybe someone will get creative and think of some idea or mechanic that currently exists in the game that will prevent this future from becoming true. Thus, the reason for the thread's creation ^_^

 

Also, I do agree with your last bit of your post greatly, I can see them complaining about it like they always do lol.  I also see these people getting bored easily and mostly ignoring the game for the most part, or at least the content like this (specifically talking about the super whales that are maxing out their gear already and it's been not even 3 days since it patched). Once you've achieved everything there is to really achieve in the game currently, the motivation to do things seems to disappear. Where as the rest of us, will continue to have reasons to do content, farm, grow and improve ourselves step by step, and get enjoyment. I want the gear obviously, but I fear what will happen to the gear based combat entertainment once the majority of it's players have this gear as it'll become a "respawn screen simulator map" for literally everyone :/ 

[Dotimus]

i dont really get yoyr post, cause in my view the game is broken from a few patches ago, it is not the gear fault

 

since a few months ago, mostly any BM (skilled) i got in arena 1v1 would kill me in 1-1.5s (if i would not use escape right away) or in around 2 secs in ONE aerial if i did use the escape.

so, my point is, it is not the gear that is broken is is the classes and the game that got completely broken. the gear is just a EXTRA BROKEN thinggy....

 

(ya, i-m a casual and dont even care about arena but i do think that any new player trying the game and getting reckd in 1/2 secs will abandon the game early on and never look back)

 

 

[DirectorTseng]

Don't worry, BM will be taken down a lot soon. With the release of Raven and end game badges you're going to find them dropping in PvP rank and ability. Wl and sf are going to be top dog soon in PvP.

[NightFer]

16 minutes ago, DirectorTseng said:

Don't worry, BM will be taken down a lot soon. With the release of Raven and end game badges you're going to find them dropping in PvP rank and ability. Wl and sf are going to be top dog soon in PvP.

Badges dont affect arena at all, so even if you have them, they wount change your skills in arena. Learn for gods sake....

[Shukran]

stats on new items are becoming way too much high.

 

which means that EVEN IF THE NOOBEST player in the world, whales can just raw dps you and kill you, with or without crit def, with or without piercing. 

the amount of raw damage is becoming too much .

 

being whales in pve doesnt affect anyone.

 

whales in owpvp is becoming an issue because time to reach those stats/upgrades for f2p or average spending players is way longer than before.

i suggest NCSoft to pay attention to the gap.

[Arken]

I'm sorry but I loled hard now, thank you for the post XD

To see a whale being beaten up by another whale as if he was a free players is too much fun XD

 

Jokes apart thou, you shouldn't think this is a new problem, since free players had to deal with this kind of bs for quite a while. There's pretty much nothing we can do about it as long as there are people with unlimited credit card, and no other place to spend.

What actualy changes now is how many upgrades are avalible, how much more you can improve, regardless of the cost. So much that once the diference between a whale and a normal players was "tolerable" and now it's unbearable even between one whale to another?!

So shall we have less gear upgrades avalible? slower paced combats? higher HP pools? Invulnerability against skills used too often? class combos with obvious vulnerabilities (some games actualy put you into a 'easily interrupt/cced' state if you try some powerful strikes)?

 

Maybe they should start thinking of a diferent aproach to pvp.

The best pvp games had strategy (objectives that didn't involved direct killing), motive (you would defend or attack a base in order to keep or grant your faction with some server wide benefit) and class roles (yes, it's important for pvp that a support class don't outdps a dps class and a healer don't outtank a tank).

Also, some games like LotRO had a good idea for pvp (thou it was never updated) that put players against monsterplayers. Mosters were design to lose a 1v1, but win when with a group, and as funny as it would sound, the mosterplayers were a lot less jerks than the normal players.

 

As of a problem resolution we players could do for ourselves is opens world pvp when it feels like fun/competitive or simply pve.

[Shukran]

1 hour ago, lostforumaccount said:

I'm sorry but I loled hard now, thank you for the post XD

To see a whale being beaten up by another whale as if he was a free players is too much fun XD

 

Jokes apart thou, you shouldn't think this is a new problem, since free players had to deal with this kind of bs for quite a while. There's pretty much nothing we can do about it as long as there are people with unlimited credit card, and no other place to spend.

What actualy changes now is how many upgrades are avalible, how much more you can improve, regardless of the cost. So much that once the diference between a whale and a normal players was "tolerable" and now it's unbearable even between one whale to another?!

So shall we have less gear upgrades avalible? slower paced combats? higher HP pools? Invulnerability against skills used too often? class combos with obvious vulnerabilities (some games actualy put you into a 'easily interrupt/cced' state if you try some powerful strikes)?

 

Maybe they should start thinking of a diferent aproach to pvp.

The best pvp games had strategy (objectives that didn't involved direct killing), motive (you would defend or attack a base in order to keep or grant your faction with some server wide benefit) and class roles (yes, it's important for pvp that a support class don't outdps a dps class and a healer don't outtank a tank).

Also, some games like LotRO had a good idea for pvp (thou it was never updated) that put players against monsterplayers. Mosters were design to lose a 1v1, but win when with a group, and as funny as it would sound, the mosterplayers were a lot less jerks than the normal players.

 

As of a problem resolution we players could do for ourselves is opens world pvp when it feels like fun/competitive or simply pve.

laugh as u please, maybe others are interested in this kind of problem.

[SoulsHunter]

The main problem is probably the players themselves. What do they want? Challenging, equal fight? Nope. They want to one-shot people and rack up as much number of kills as possible. Since these games are actually just trying to make money instead of making a fun game, so all these gears are there to just make players pay for it and let them have their 'fun' killing thing with one click. Just read the forum and check in game F8, nobody bothers to play the game, they only want to do things in 1 min or less and farm the game.

 

For now I will probably just wait for the highly hyped skill tree redesigned that is supposedly rumored to make pvp fair.

[DirectorTseng]

2 hours ago, NightFer said:

Badges dont affect arena at all, so even if you have them, they wount change your skills in arena. Learn for gods sake....

Did I state arena? This is a thread about 6 vs 6 where yes they do affect as it is gear based.. maybe try reading.

[FarenheitZer0]

Well, this situation was to be expected and even came faster than I expected. Ncsoft is failing to acknowledge the gap growing between free players

and those that invest into the game. The op just experience a direct consequence of that. Damn, TTk of less than 2 seconds. I guess no soulshield or

defensive stat can protect me against that, lol.

 

RIP 6vs6 (for the second time and for the same reason) 2016 - 2016 (personally, I hope for it to see the new year).

[Lerialis]

BnS OWPvP and 6vs6 will never work here on the west in fair way. Game has one design in this moment. Make as much money as is possible. With this you realy cant pleasure majority of western players.

 

You want to do PvP? But hey, you need to do tons and tons (months) of boring PvE or put out your wallet. It's pretty simple. This is the purpose of eastern mmos imported to the west. And it work here on our market for minority, but strong minority of players.

 

You can do nothing about it unles majority of players will stop paying. Simple. Stop crying OMG. It's the players fault. Your fault. It's the fault of everyone who buying gold, materials or so for real money to have easy game. I, personaly, spend over 400 euros in this game. Only for *cricket*ing cosmetics! Why? Because i know i don't want to be part of this problem. Weake up plebs. Stop asking stupid questions and do only one thing you can do for fix. Kill the game or force publishers to do something real.

[Stensatsu]

I mean, you can watch KR 6v6 and see it gets pretty crazy with the endgame Amulets and elemental gear. BMs 1 shotting everyone with hm z>Draw, destroyers popping fury and doing 100k+ to everyone around them, soulburn giving an extra 500%ap modifier to every hit and an extra 25% cdmg. So it isn't likely to change.

[Leodore]

This topic is not about "fairness", as the situation I wanted to present was a 6v6 with all max'd out characters of random classes, and the pvp will minimize to nothing much more than a insta-kill pvp zone. It does not matter whether you have the max gear or not, you will die to the damage done nearly instantly. The days of actually having a fight that lasts longer than a few seconds (or the length of an invuln shield) will disappear. Which my only real concern about it, is that I see this mechanic of the game becoming very boring and falling into the many other potentially entertaining areas we have in the game that aren't fun because we either can not play them the way they were designed (due to a population issue, gear issue, class issue, lag issue, or w/e), or we have ruined it by our own actions. Now in this case, this really just comes down to the issue that we are provided a method to gain insane damage, but no method to survive that same damage being done to us. The new defensive gear helps, but not nearly enough to compensate for the damage increase. 

4 hours ago, Lerialis said:

Lerialis

I believe you have a misunderstanding of how the relationship between the overseas developer and the states-side publisher works. Almost all of your post is either false, exaggerated, or derogatory. Either case, this is not a topic about the expenses of the gear, this is a discussion about ONCE you reach the goal of maxing your gear (along with everyone else), it will completely change the face of the mechanics to be extremely damage based, but little or no defensive abilities to survive from that same damage being done to you. Which will result in a pvp style that does not seem entertaining. 

6 hours ago, SoulsHunter said:

SoulsHunter

Any game developer and any publisher knows the large majority of the money you make is from small investments of money from the average player base, not the whales. Due to this fact, the game's entertainment worth (or fun factor) is very key to this, it seems we have released the gear, skills, patches, content, etc etc, is in an odd order compared to the order in which they were released over seas. Players in KR do not die this quickly due to the other gear options you have that can allow players to survive longer against high damage like this. We, however, will have a period of time where our 6v6 will turn into a zone that you spend more time dead, than you do actually fighting. 

[Leodore]

45 minutes ago, Stensatsu said:

Stensatsu

I have watched many KR 6v6 videos, and due to the defensive gear options they have, they have the ability to also survive from the large damage that they can also dish out. They have options to be a defensive build, offensive build, or a hybrid of the two. Currently, we seem to only have the option of going offensive, which will lead to insta-death fights in 6v6. Insta-kill and insta-death fights is not something we've had to face as the "norm" in pvp so far, and will change our expectations and pvp strategy greatly. We will find it common practice to only engage into a fight when we have our invulnerability shields off of cooldown and our highest damage skills so that we can practically 1 shot people, and not be 1 shot ourselves first. This seems very boring, but maybe that's just my opinion. 

[Leodore]

Just now, sbsam said:

As all games out there they have three stages:

1: start fun to attract ppl.

2: the game reach some level when it gets boring and they start promising things.

3: milk the cows and run away with the cash "dead game"

 

i think we are starting the 3rd stage.

I kindly disagree, this game is far from dying and has a large amount of content still coming to us, and they are still actively developing content and features and items in the most updated version. I would consider your post a possibility IF this game was not in active development, however that is not the case. 

[sbsam]

As all games out there they have three stages:

1: start fun to attract ppl.

2: the game reach some level when it gets boring and they start promising things.

3: milk the cows and run away with the cash "dead game"

 

i think we are starting the 3rd stage.

[sbsam]

7 minutes ago, Leodore said:

I kindly disagree, this game is far from dying and has a large amount of content still coming to us, and they are still actively developing content and features and items in the most updated version. I would consider your post a possibility IF this game was not in active development, however that is not the case. 

i know many eastern games my friend that kept going on in the east while closed in the west, not wishing it to BnS as i love the game , but i am not optimistic from what i see.

[SoulsHunter]

10 hours ago, Leodore said:

I have watched many KR 6v6 videos, and due to the defensive gear options they have, they have the ability to also survive from the large damage that they can also dish out. They have options to be a defensive build, offensive build, or a hybrid of the two. Currently, we seem to only have the option of going offensive, which will lead to insta-death fights in 6v6. Insta-kill and insta-death fights is not something we've had to face as the "norm" in pvp so far, and will change our expectations and pvp strategy greatly. We will find it common practice to only engage into a fight when we have our invulnerability shields off of cooldown and our highest damage skills so that we can practically 1 shot people, and not be 1 shot ourselves first. This seems very boring, but maybe that's just my opinion. 

I am sure many of us have played many games that allow you to choose between going down the defence path or going down the offence path. But they will always make the offence path much more powerful, because if they let defence skill makes a difference and everyone goes defence path, every match will just time out. So offence skills will always overpower defensive skill by a large margin. Of course it will not be easy to get a lot of AP, which brings us back to paying for AP. The more you pay the more offensive skills overpower defensive skills. Thats is how players feel rewarded, that the money they spend is worthwhile.

 

I know it seems boring to both of us and some other players out there, but the majority of the players enjoy killing things with one click, not just the whales, but the majority. And companies fine tune their game for them, not us, to get their money.