Formal complaint about wwv/beluga matchmaking

[Ooneka]

Greetings!

 

Please keep this interesting debate civil. Being constructive and respecting diverging opinions are the keys for an enjoyable discussion.

Offending users will be warned according to the rules stipulated by the Code of Conduct.

 

Regards,

 

Team Blade and Soul

[FrozenB]

I think the current system is fine. If you are in the bad team, just try to get some bg points even though you know you are going to lose. If you can't even get a single point in the match, then just quit the game and log back in again to save some time (assuming you have a fast computer with quick loading screen) because you are going to lose elo rank anyways and with 0 point in the match either in beluga or wwv, you won't get any bg points in the end no matter how much you contribute. No one can have 100% win in 6v6. 

 

Also, a little suggestion would be that after you lose the match and go back to the lobby, don't press the lfp button immediately. This is to avoid having to fight against same team or with the same teammates. I would say wait for 10-15 minute or go do a dungeon first before entering again. This way you will get different people in the match (most likely).

 

[Jackiesaysya]

I miss when you could premake teams. was skill-based instead of rng. There definitely needs to be some sort of balance to make it fun again. Maybe adding a threshhold so characters under a certain stat can't join higher lvl matches. even with 1800 elo getting 400 apers who got carried to gold.skills mean nothing if two auto attacks completely wreck you.

[FrozenB]

37 minutes ago, Jackiesaysya said:

I miss when you could premake teams. was skill-based instead of rng. There definitely needs to be some sort of balance to make it fun again. Maybe adding a threshhold so characters under a certain stat can't join higher lvl matches. even with 1800 elo getting 400 apers who got carried to gold.skills mean nothing if two auto attacks completely wreck you.

Yes, I would like to have premake teams too. It is better to have the options to choose solo, dual, 4P, or full 6P pre-make team. Of course 6P pre-make team will take longer quene time, but once in a while, playing with the 6 people we know is fun too. Also, it will be easier to co-ordinate in the match when we can communicate in TS or Discord, especially in beluga. 

 

My suggestion would be if you quene with 4P, then you will have to face another pre-made with 4P as well with a combination of 2 single or a dual team. Same thing for 6P pre-make team where you have to face another 6P re-make team because if the 6P pre-made team is playing against 6 solo players, then the solo players are in huge disadvantage.

 

However, the only downside with the 6P pre-make team is being abused by players where they have 12 players and divide into 2 teams and let each other win/lose non-stop. I think this is the major reason why they don't allow pre-make team in BG. This is what happened in 3vs3 tag match in F9 where the players trade win.

 

[Jackiesaysya]

very true. I see the positives and negatives with implementing that. I definitely wouldn't mind longer queue times for better matched fights, though. Hard to prevent exploiting regardless of how its set up i guess.

1 hour ago, FrozenB said:

Yes, I would like to have premake teams too. It is better to have the options to choose solo, dual, 4P, or full 6P pre-make team. Of course 6P pre-make team will take longer quene time, but once in a while, playing with the 6 people we know is fun too. Also, it will be easier to co-ordinate in the match when we can communicate in TS or Discord, especially in beluga. 

 

My suggestion would be if you quene with 4P, then you will have to face another pre-made with 4P as well with a combination of 2 single or a dual team. Same thing for 6P pre-make team where you have to face another 6P re-make team because if the 6P pre-made team is playing against 6 solo players, then the solo players are in huge disadvantage.

 

However, the only downside with the 6P pre-make team is being abused by players where they have 12 players and divide into 2 teams and let each other win/lose non-stop. I think this is the major reason why they don't allow pre-make team in BG. This is what happened in 3vs3 tag match in F9 where the players trade win.

 

 

[Shuchin]

Premade 6v6 is something that should be done in tournament or league style, not within an elo system. I would love to see a 6v6 league for B&S, and all this would need is a sparring function. But big premades should not come into the elo system, it's messing ratings up _and_ hugely increases queue time.

 

Personally I am completely happy with the current system in it's general form, and am just puzzled by the phenomenon of sometime very unequal and very high ranking penalties on losing. I have had matches where we gained a solid 500/1800 score before losing, and got deducted 25 and once even 55 elo points. Also, my lower elo team mate seemed to suffer stronger deductions than I did, which also seems counter-intuitive since for him the match up was much harder than for me. *confused*

[Sonozaki]

Just speaking from personal experience, as someone who has been around the top 10 of his class rank in both beluga and WWV:

 

I don't ever see anyone who is incredibly undeargeared compared to the other guys in any of the two teams, except for some rare occasions, when some sum got carried... heal does not require gear. Thats not in the first week after season reset, but when rankings are more spread obviously.

What i notice is, that MM takes really long sometimes and you always only meet the same few people over and over, which gets boring fast. The last times whales really had possibilities to farm 500AP players probably was that WWV event.

In this aspect, i want to point out some problems i see and some things i see different then some of you folks:

 

Edit: To not have this drift into another class flame-war, let me mention beforehand, that the skills\classes mentioned are just examples. My points are referring to the mechanics of said skills and thus applies to all classes who have skills of equal mechanics.

 

-Restrain skills need to be disabled or at least lowered when used against players in 6v6, lets say the enemy team has 2bd and 2sum. If all of them have gear around what a 600AP usually has, they still easily wreck a whole 800AP crew, Theres more grabs then escape and Restrain dmg is insane, while those 2 classes can survive quite a long time without major difficulties.

-Tagging things (horns, braziers) should not be possible while stealthed. Or at least have the usual *ping* on the map appear, like when someone unstealthed does tag it.

-Sum healing on the group is way to much. Selfheal may stay as is, even if some consider it to much as well.

(Just an idea: make it modifiable by AP as well, like skill soandso heals 25xAP over x seconds, i think the balance between pve and pvp as well as differences in gears would be better reflected by this, also make it non stackable when theres multiple sums)

-There should not be any spammable defensive skills, like BM block, KFM counter and so on, they should have a tiny cd, like 2 or 3 sec, so theres always a gap in between and you actually need to think if using it right now is a good idea.

-There should not be spammable, fairly high dmg, no requirements needing skills, from that u can not defend, i.e. the sunflower, parry- &def-pen as well as aoe, so Bladecall, veil, sanctum, etc. dont work either 

(so either make it blockable OR parry-able OR lower its dmg, since taking the aoe effect from it would not be a good option imho... to balance this for pve something could be done about bees build, so the diversion between pve and pvp builds increases. Something equal was done to WL Wingstorm for example, when they noticed it being brokenly op at WL launch)

-i agree that some sort of limitation on how many players of the same class can be present in any given team at the same time is needed

-no class should have something like a block breaker automatically appear on any of their main rotation spamming buttons, so they actually need to react themselves and press that specific button and not just spam on

-the BM right-click case will soon be reqorked, so i won't futher comment on that

-make it so u can not aoe through braziers, especially those "pulls enemys" aoe, which ive seen causing players to be stuck inside the brazier. also it would make it more fair to defend with classes who can not spam aoe all the time and it would make defending solo vs. multiple opponents more difficult

(like 1 fm/kfm/etc. keeping 4 people from tagging by themselves, would also give des and bd a more important role aside from grabbing, if restrain against players was nerfed)

-top and bottom braziers circle thing on the ground, that you can not run over normally... 

-make vegetation on the maps invisible, when they are right in your screen. for example in WWV, when a FM keeps pushing you the the edge of a spot, especially the middle brazier, all you see on your screen will be big green leafes... this is very annoying, considering im only using 200max cam distance

 

Well, that's all that comes to mind for now. Feel free to give me your opinions on this.

 

PS: That Whale vs. F2P problem you mentioned was somehow solved when rankings were introduced. However, having more players doing 6v6 would cause more diversion in rankings and lessen the problem.

[882184_1452550488]

27 minutes ago, Sonozaki said:

Just speaking from personal experience, as someone who has been around the top 10 of his class rank in both beluga and WWV:

 

I don't ever see anyone who is incredibly undeargeared compared to the other guys in any of the two teams, except for some rare occasions, when some sum got carried... heal does not require gear. Thats not in the first week after season reset, but when rankings are more spread obviously.

What i notice is, that MM takes really long sometimes and you always only meet the same few people over and over, which gets boring fast. The last times whales really had possibilities to farm 500AP players probably was that WWV event.

In this aspect, i want to point out some problems i see and some things i see different then some of you folks:

 

Edit: To not have this drift into another class flame-war, let me mention beforehand, that the skills\classes mentioned are just examples. My points are referring to the mechanics of said skills and thus applies to all classes who have skills of equal mechanics.

 

-Restrain skills need to be disabled or at least lowered when used against players in 6v6, lets say the enemy team has 2bd and 2sum. If all of them have gear around what a 600AP usually has, they still easily wreck a whole 800AP crew, Theres more grabs then escape and Restrain dmg is insane, while those 2 classes can survive quite a long time without major difficulties.

-Tagging things (horns, braziers) should not be possible while stealthed. Or at least have the usual *ping* on the map appear, like when someone unstealthed does tag it.

-Sum healing on the group is way to much. Selfheal may stay as is, even if some consider it to much as well.

(Just an idea: make it modifiable by AP as well, like skill soandso heals 25xAP over x seconds, i think the balance between pve and pvp as well as differences in gears would be better reflected by this, also make it non stackable when theres multiple sums)

-There should not be any spammable defensive skills, like BM block, KFM counter and so on, they should have a tiny cd, like 2 or 3 sec, so theres always a gap in between and you actually need to think if using it right now is a good idea.

-There should not be spammable, fairly high dmg, no requirements needing skills, from that u can not defend, i.e. the sunflower, parry- &def-pen as well as aoe, so Bladecall, veil, sanctum, etc. dont work either 

(so either make it blockable OR parry-able OR lower its dmg, since taking the aoe effect from it would not be a good option imho... to balance this for pve something could be done about bees build, so the diversion between pve and pvp builds increases. Something equal was done to WL Wingstorm for example, when they noticed it being brokenly op at WL launch)

-i agree that some sort of limitation on how many players of the same class can be present in any given team at the same time is needed

-no class should have something like a block breaker automatically appear on any of their main rotation spamming buttons, so they actually need to react themselves and press that specific button and not just spam on

-the BM right-click case will soon be reqorked, so i won't futher comment on that

-make it so u can not aoe through braziers, especially those "pulls enemys" aoe, which ive seen causing players to be stuck inside the brazier. also it would make it more fair to defend with classes who can not spam aoe all the time and it would make defending solo vs. multiple opponents more difficult

(like 1 fm/kfm/etc. keeping 4 people from tagging by themselves, would also give des and bd a more important role aside from grabbing, if restrain against players was nerfed)

-top and bottom braziers circle thing on the ground, that you can not run over normally... 

-make vegetation on the maps invisible, when they are right in your screen. for example in WWV, when a FM keeps pushing you the the edge of a spot, especially the middle brazier, all you see on your screen will be big green leafes... this is very annoying, considering im only using 200max cam distance

 

Well, that's all that comes to mind for now. Feel free to give me your opinions on this.

 

PS: That Whale vs. F2P problem you mentioned was somehow solved when rankings were introduced. However, having more players doing 6v6 would cause more diversion in rankings and lessen the problem.

ohm making kfms counter for 2-3 seconds.. you want to make us a sitting duck when range just spam us to death ? im guessing you playing warlock who cant fight a kfm.. just smashing your keyboard into our counter.

 

thats what happens when people dont know how to play versus a kfm who is defending alone, they just give him/her free iframes cause they just spam they buttons..

[Sonozaki]

5 minutes ago, 882184_1452550488 said:

ohm making kfms counter for 2-3 seconds.. you want to make us a sitting duck when range just spam us to death ? im guessing you playing warlock who cant fight a kfm.. just smashing your keyboard into our counter.

 

thats what happens when people dont know how to play versus a kfm who is defending alone, they just give him/her free iframes cause they just spam they buttons..

Just imagin if theres more then one player spamming at the kfm, he will counter all day and be resist, no matter how easily i could take him down... aside from kfm having plenty other i-frames.

 

But as i said before, i don't intend to start another class flame war and refer to mechanics in general, not class-based.

Those are just examples.

[882184_1452550488]

4 minutes ago, Sonozaki said:

Just imagin if theres more then one player spamming at the kfm, he will counter all day and be resist, no matter how easily i could take him down... aside from kfm having plenty other i-frames.

 

But as i said before, i don't intend to start another class flame war and refer to mechanics in general, not class-based.

Those are just examples.

but still is that the class problem issue, or is it the playerbase problem that they dont know how to play vs kfm? everytime i have been in beluga or valley and i see 2 people running for a kfm who is solo defending im just not going there cause its waste of time - cause 85% of the playerbase just smashing their keyboard instead of thinking of to act against kfm.

 

and yeah im KFM main , and i have seen so many people / played against many people who just do what im talking about, its not a class issue.

 

lets say they do this what you wanted , to make our counter 2-3 sec cd on .. what are we supposed to then? 

[Sonozaki]

9 minutes ago, 882184_1452550488 said:

but still is that the class problem issue, or is it the playerbase problem that they dont know how to play vs kfm? everytime i have been in beluga or valley and i see 2 people running for a kfm who is solo defending im just not going there cause its waste of time - cause 85% of the playerbase just smashing their keyboard instead of thinking of to act against kfm.

 

and yeah im KFM main , and i have seen so many people / played against many people who just do what im talking about, its not a class issue.

I agree with that and i am by no means saying that im never making that mistake, but i know about it and try avoiding it. But that's not my point. You can still have your counter/block/spin/etc. but being able to braindead spam it, just isnt fun for anyone. You should at least have to think about when and where to use it. 2sec cd is not that much, considering the counter itself last for.. 1sec or 1,5sec? But when theres absolutely no gap in between, how is anyone supposed to do shit against this? Most aoe cc has cooldowns... long cooldowns.

 

And yes, you guessed right, i'm main WL. I do know how to break the counterspam, but sadly it doesnt work all the time. There might be a lack of skill and reaction time on my side, but this is also heavily influeneced by ping and the games performance in general.

 

Edit: The WLs parry block lasts 2sec, with the first 0,5sec of parry, but has a 3sec cd. That's what i'd wish for all classes who have similar skills. If an FM is spamming me, i actually have to time it (i admit this isnt hard vs. FM) and can not just spam it.

[DirectorTseng]

Matching last night after update was broken as hell, I've never had such bad luck in 6 vs 6 last night. First match we had a okay team on my side by the team across from us... 3 BD's.. they literally sat there and spun constantly resisting everything and then just cc everyone to death. 

 

Next pt was horrid.. all low level (like him 2 with no stats at all).. pt across from us... 3 hm 10+ destros..

 

Next group had 3 BM across from us all PvP geared again a pt of low level poorly geared with only two of us high level and heard for PvP.

 

It was this way all night or pt would be either like levels or random classes and the other pt would be all BM, bd, or destroy heavy.

[Gennady]

Before season reset matching was not so much broken, as it now. I started to play WWV with 400+AP. Even though there were complains from other players about my AP, WWV was somewhat enjoyable for me. Then I upgraded to 500+AP and more hm5-6 with 400-500AP started to play (I guess its because of legendary ss), games became ineteresting with low gape between teams' points (1800 vs 1700+ for example). But after season reset matching system is broken. 500+AP are matched vs 700+AP. And how you supposed to defend a base (even if you managed to cap empty one) vs someone who has 780AP? One stun from such opponent and you are dead in seconds. Also, as someone already said, system often stacks low-geared ppl in one team and high-geared in other. I see following steps as a solution:

 

1) Start season not with 1300 rating, but with 1400. Who loose often will become 1300+ soon and will meet people with more similar gear and skills. This measure will make start of season more comfortable. Right now, when everyone is 1300, you can easily meet hm13 with ~800AP, and face them many games in a row.

2) Put all people in lobby of 12 and then distribute them as equal as possible (by AP or by wins/losses ratio or smth)

[FrozenB]

4 hours ago, Gennady said:

Before season reset matching was not so much broken, as it now. I started to play WWV with 400+AP. Even though there were complains from other players about my AP, WWV was somewhat enjoyable for me. Then I upgraded to 500+AP and more hm5-6 with 400-500AP started to play (I guess its because of legendary ss), games became ineteresting with low gape between teams' points (1800 vs 1700+ for example). But after season reset matching system is broken. 500+AP are matched vs 700+AP. And how you supposed to defend a base (even if you managed to cap empty one) vs someone who has 780AP? One stun from such opponent and you are dead in seconds. Also, as someone already said, system often stacks low-geared ppl in one team and high-geared in other. I see following steps as a solution:

 

1) Start season not with 1300 rating, but with 1400. Who loose often will become 1300+ soon and will meet people with more similar gear and skills. This measure will make start of season more comfortable. Right now, when everyone is 1300, you can easily meet hm13 with ~800AP, and face them many games in a row.

2) Put all people in lobby of 12 and then distribute them as equal as possible (by AP or by wins/losses ratio or smth)

When each season just started, everyone is back to the same elo rank (1300). At that time, of course you will quene up with the low geared people, but by the time you reach to mid-gold or above elo rank, then the situation will be better, but at the same time, you will be facing whales/well-gear players all the time as well.

 

I have an experience that in high gold rank (1750+) where i have a sin teammate who has no cdef in beluga. My partner and I asked why he has no cdef and he showed us that he has 134 galaxy fragments and he claimed that he wanted full set of pvp ss. OMG...can he just grab each of the pvp ss 1 at a time? Of course, he got spam killed or stayed invisible pretty much the whole match and later complaints about no support from his teammates because he couldn't grab the horns at all.

 

Well..like mentioned in other posts, I think they should disable stealth when player holding horns and disable summoner's cat combat ability when the summoner is holding horns. I think the horn holders getting party iframe from teammates are more than enough in beluga.

[Ladar]

Should seek by AP 400-500,500-600 etc  would justly (blocked change gear on in 6v6)

[Sonozaki]

17 hours ago, FrozenB said:

When each season just started, everyone is back to the same elo rank (1300). At that time, of course you will quene up with the low geared people, but by the time you reach to mid-gold or above elo rank, then the situation will be better, but at the same time, you will be facing whales/well-gear players all the time as well.

 

I have an experience that in high gold rank (1750+) where i have a sin teammate who has no cdef in beluga. My partner and I asked why he has no cdef and he showed us that he has 134 galaxy fragments and he claimed that he wanted full set of pvp ss. OMG...can he just grab each of the pvp ss 1 at a time? Of course, he got spam killed or stayed invisible pretty much the whole match and later complaints about no support from his teammates because he couldn't grab the horns at all.

 

Well..like mentioned in other posts, I think they should disable stealth when player holding horns and disable summoner's cat combat ability when the summoner is holding horns. I think the horn holders getting party iframe from teammates are more than enough in beluga.

This is not 100% accurate, as they already implemented ELO gaps for season resets. I started this WWV season with 1500 rating, as did veryone above gold. So theres room in both direction to diversify ranks faster.

The main problem is, that not enough people queue for 6v6, so you end up playing vs. people with 200 ELO difference from yours. No ranking system can help it, if there aren't enough players to actually rank them properly.

[Shukran]

14 minutes ago, Sonozaki said:

This is not 100% accurate, as they already implemented ELO gaps for season resets. I started this WWV season with 1500 rating, as did veryone above gold. So theres room in both direction to diversify ranks faster.

The main problem is, that not enough people queue for 6v6, so you end up playing vs. people with 200 ELO difference from yours. No ranking system can help it, if there aren't enough players to actually rank them properly.

- create a new window or a pop up that shows when u enter F8. it says that your current equip won't be exchangeable once queued. so u will be forced to play with your current equip, hence NO ap scam.

-  split divisions by statistics (may it be AP, crit def or a mix of them)

- since in this way u create an honogeneus population, skill will matter more. enjoy your 6v6.

 

 

if there are no players as u state, which is not true since u didnt put any region in your statement (im EU and 6v6 start normally), u put prizes to lure them, as they did with previous event .

[Sonozaki]

20 minutes ago, Shukran said:

- create a new window or a pop up that shows when u enter F8. it says that your current equip won't be exchangeable once queued. so u will be forced to play with your current equip, hence NO ap scam.

-  split divisions by statistics (may it be AP, crit def or a mix of them)

- since in this way u create an honogeneus population, skill will matter more. enjoy your 6v6.

 

 

if there are no players as u state, which is not true since u didnt put any region in your statement (im EU and 6v6 start normally), u put prizes to lure them, as they did with previous event .

Im EU as well. Queues take an an average of 5 min througout the day and i only ever meet the same pool of 20 people over and over... with the pool decreasing the further i can manage to progress in ratings. Meeting 500AP players is very rare for me though...

Further restricting matchmaking will result in endless queues, which is the main reason to not do it.

[Shukran]

7 minutes ago, Sonozaki said:

Im EU as well. Queues take an an average of 5 min througout the day and i only ever meet the same pool of 20 people over and over... with the pool decreasing the further i can manage to progress in ratings. Meeting 500AP players is very rare for me though...

Further restricting matchmaking will result in endless queues, which is the main reason to not do it.

maybe it is the elo.

when there was the event 6v6 was full everyday.

 

my last statement explain how to help.

[Valiant]

On 11/22/2016 at 7:38 PM, Rog said:

Instead of whining and crying try to think of a solution witch would magically solve all the problems with matchmaking.

 

And try not to forget that 6v6 is not meant to be equalized, it is whale festa.

 

Only thing which should be fixed in 6v6 is same class count per team.

My self think the problem lay in pve skills more that just gear, Like 3 BM, 2 Assassin and 1 summoner that was nightmare match at balgun since high damage and 2 hidden class while ofcourse their fighting spirit boost

 

The thing we need to balance class in matches, Balance gear not only ranking

[Kalebon]

A simple solution I have proposed for this problem is this: IMPLEMENT THE EQUALIZING EFFECT FROM ARENA!

[FrozenB]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 3:46 AM, Kalebon said:

A simple solution I have proposed for this problem is this: IMPLEMENT THE EQUALIZING EFFECT FROM ARENA!

Then, what's the point to upgrade your gears and farm the pvp soul shield? They will become useless if battleground has equalizing gear. Also, OpenWorld PVP is dead because usually one side of faction is dominated in each server. It is useless for you to have god-like gear when 20+ people ganging you at the same time.

 

Battlegrounds are fine at the moment. Like I said in above, there is no one who can have 100% win. It is all about luck.

[Valiant]

4 hours ago, FrozenB said:

Then, what's the point to upgrade your gears and farm the pvp soul shield? They will become useless if battleground has equalizing gear. Also, OpenWorld PVP is dead because usually one side of faction is dominated in each server. It is useless for you to have god-like gear when 20+ people ganging you at the same time.

 

Battlegrounds are fine at the moment. Like I said in above, there is no one who can have 100% win. It is all about luck.

But having x Classes can you gave upper hand, Like Bagluon having assassin is like a 70% chance of winning , As well as having soulburn is very important in 6v6

 

But that could be changed by next patch if they going for real change and spread pve skills from pvp one, We shall see

[882184_1452550488]

25 minutes ago, Valiant said:

But having x Classes can you gave upper hand, Like Bagluon having assassin is like a 70% chance of winning , As well as having soulburn is very important in 6v6

 

But that could be changed by next patch if they going for real change and spread pve skills from pvp one, We shall see

yup, remove soul burn and fighting spirit + all grabbing cause its only for pve

[ohhhhbeeee]

You're not going to get many changes to skills because of 6v6.  It's not meant to be taken seriously.  All you can hope for is better matchmaking that will add gear into the equation and maybe class limits??

 

Balancing skills for 6v6 will require an entire rework of the system and the removal of rng and that is not going to happen.