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Why is RNG and grinding good things to have in a game?


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Dota 2, League of Legends, CS: GO, H1Z1 and pretty much all major titles featured on Twitch.tv right now have grinding and RNG built deep into the games fundamentals. And even though some people don't like to grind and many others claim that the boxes are rigged, most understand and accept that you are not obligated to buy these boxes - specially in the case of cosmetic items - and that if you won't grind, you won't rank up. And life goes on.

Within MMORPG's communities, however, there seems to be this sense of entitlement, this feeling that some people have that there should be no grinding and there should be no RNG, or that at least there should be much less of it. But is that really a good thing? Some would think so. Some may also think it would be a good thing to live forever, not realizing how excruciatingly tedious and painful that could be. So what would drastically reducing RNG and grinding do to the game in general? Let's delve deeper into it.
 

  • It would deflate the economy.


By increasing drop rates, the amount of items available, thus the amount of items being sold and traded - supply - would increase hugely! On such a large scale community, even the tiniest increase in general drop rates can scale exponentially - without a correspondent increase in demand. Competition for selling more items to the unchanged amount of buyers would make prices cheaper and the coin worth more.

Yeah, so? Cheap items! What's bad about it?
 

  • It would make the game boring and easy.


And that's no good for holding a strong community. By making items more accessible, at first, the pace of the game would be accelerated a little bit. Everybody would get that evolution in a little bit earlier. Everybody would be a little bit more well equipped.
But given some more time and some more grinding, even the most expensive items prices could drop down to the ground at the market.

A way to prevent low market prices from eventually making everyone godlike would be to further isolate players from one another, by making more items non-tradable. But don't we have enough of those?

 

  • Do you really wanna have it all?

    What was the first thing you asked yourself when you first hit level 50? Let me guess.

    "What to do now?"

    Fortunately, you found that there was still plenty of things to do. You had to grind that dungeon in order to get that new soul shield set. You had to get that next evolution. You had to get hongmoon levels. But lets say there was nothing more to do. Let's say you've done it all, you've had it all and you've been everywhere. Let's say you have all the hongmoon skills that you whine so much about. What the hell would you do then? Just walk around bored as hell? PvP all day? For how long would we have such a big community if things were like that?

    MMO's are about the discovery, the conquer, the grind. The chance to be the best through dedication. The fun is not in being there, it's in getting there. Once you're there, you'll be gradually having less and less fun with it.

    I'm no Isaac Newton but I would say that every increase in game easiness has an equal and opposite increase in game boredom. Now let us be careful about what we wish and enjoy this wonderful game. You don't want it to be easier the same way you don't want to live forever.
     
Edited by God Himself
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I agree grinding is somewhat necessary. But sorry no rng please. RNG is gamble not grind, the last thing we want in a game is gambling. I would go poker or something if I want to gamble.

 

RNG counter grinding. It makes your efforts feels wasted. Grinding awards you for your efforts the more you grind the more you get. So having RNG in a grinding game KILLS it.

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They're not, Koreans are gambling addicts so most if not all Korean MMOs are slot machines disguised as video games. Some gambling watchdog groups have noticed this and some MMOs have even been investigated by gambling commissions. Don't know if anything ever happened but the greedier they get the more scrutiny they will attract, all it will take is some senators kid using his credit card and racking up a couple thousand dollars in an MMO. Their greed will get the better of them, and no ones more greedy than NCsoft.

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grinding is here because u have chosen MOORPG genere which is, since the ages of time, a grind game. so if u dont like grinding in BnS i suggest you to play PvP or change game.

 

RNG , in a certain way, is healthy to this kind of genere, because of grinding. be it skins, weapons, ingredients, other stuff, MOORPG had always been RNg'ed ina certain way. i think we are pushing too much with rng in this game, but as long as there are players that spend money to purchase RNg stuff, they have no need to remove it or lessen it.

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I'm kinda getting tired of your fanatism... Most of your post are glorifying this game as our savior and how wonderful and amazing it is and how we should be grateful that this game is not like any other dead ancient MMORPGs that were back in the days. Yes this game is amazing and that's the reason we are all here but it's not perfect and it has it's own flaws.

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5 minutes ago, Beleth said:

I'm kinda getting tired of your fanatism... Most of your post are glorifying this game as our savior and how wonderful and amazing it is and how we should be grateful that this game is not like any other dead ancient MMORPGs that were back in the days. Yes this game is amazing and that's the reason we are all here but it's not perfect and it has it's own flaws.

Explain how is this game more flawed than any other MMORPG out there.

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RNG is good when you use it as extra bonus, or a shortcut for lucky players to achieve something. Unlucky players will just shrug and grind their way until they get the same thing, no matter how grindy it is.

 

RNG is bad when it is the only way achieve something. It gives joy to people who are lucky, and it cause frustration to people who don't have that luck, even though they spend more time, efforts and money. 

 

Running 300 runs of Tomb without a single Draken Necklace, even though you're willing to pay 2,000 gold to just end the grind for good.

 

vs

 

Someone gets it in the first run, bid like 200g and win the thing, then he is set until new things come out.

 

Do you think it is fair? RNG makes efforts look wasted and stupid, but you don't have a choice: either you continue to waste more efforts, hoping to get the thing, or you just give it up.

 

The era of lv45 could be considered as a balance era between efforts and RNG. You RNG to get an piece of equipment. No luck? You still gain the tokens so that after 10-20 runs, you can get that piece with your hard-earned tokens.

 

Everytime I look at Siren/Pirate's Emblem and Warrior's Token, I can just sigh.

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54 minutes ago, Alysha Hawkeye said:

RNG is good when you use it as extra bonus, or a shortcut for lucky players to achieve something. Unlucky players will just shrug and grind their way until they get the same thing, no matter how grindy it is.

 

RNG is bad when it is the only way achieve something. It gives joy to people who are lucky, and it cause frustration to people who don't have that luck, even though they spend more time, efforts and money. 

 

Running 300 runs of Tomb without a single Draken Necklace, even though you're willing to pay 2,000 gold to just end the grind for good.

 

vs

 

Someone gets it in the first run, bid like 200g and win the thing, then he is set until new things come out.

 

Do you think it is fair? RNG makes efforts look wasted and stupid, but you don't have a choice: either you continue to waste more efforts, hoping to get the thing, or you just give it up.

 

The era of lv45 could be considered as a balance era between efforts and RNG. You RNG to get an piece of equipment. No luck? You still gain the tokens so that after 10-20 runs, you can get that piece with your hard-earned tokens.

 

Everytime I look at Siren/Pirate's Emblem and Warrior's Token, I can just sigh.

yes, it actually is fair. What if you were the one who get amulet in 1st run for 200g? Would you complain about the drop rate? I don't think so.

the problem is that ppl nowdays wants to rush everything. New legendary weapon? NOW. Legendary pet? NOW. Legendary necklace? NOWNOWNOW.

 

tbh legendary weapons should not be named 'legendary' at all since the only thing you can't buy dirrectly is the ice/soulstone weapon. But both neck and ring are trully legendary, you can't just swipe your card and buy them. And if the legendary item gets only the lucky one? Well, why not? Only the lucky archeologist will find the rarest artifact, not the most experienced one. You can help your rng (aka luck) by spam tomb as much as possible. That sounds fair to me.

 

Long story short, i agree with OP. RNG gives us not so easily reachable goals which keeps the game more enjoyable.

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1 minute ago, SilentOne said:

yes, it actually is fair. What if you were the one who get amulet in 1st run for 200g? Would you complain about the drop rate? I don't think so.

the problem is that ppl nowdays wants to rush everything. New legendary weapon? NOW. Legendary pet? NOW. Legendary necklace? NOWNOWNOW. 

How is it fair? Some people get it after countless runs some people get it 1st run. You stated that people wants everything which is a big problem. Guess what? You stated that RNG let people get it in 1st run and you stated it is fair. Logic?

 

Like I said earlier RNG is not Grinding. RNG counter grinding and makes the game looks unfair and not fun to play.

 

RNG counter wallet warriors too and makes us look like dumb customer paying for things other people get in 1 run.

 

Let me state it again RNG is gambling, not grinding.

 

PS: you don't need plates in Monster Hunter to be good at the game. But in BNS you need RNG for every stops in the game (upgrade). Without being lucky in RNG you can't even move past blackram narrows.

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13 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

yes, it actually is fair. What if you were the one who get amulet in 1st run for 200g? Would you complain about the drop rate? I don't think so.

the problem is that ppl nowdays wants to rush everything. New legendary weapon? NOW. Legendary pet? NOW. Legendary necklace? NOWNOWNOW.

 

tbh legendary weapons should not be named 'legendary' at all since the only thing you can't buy dirrectly is the ice/soulstone weapon. But both neck and ring are trully legendary, you can't just swipe your card and buy them. And if the legendary item gets only the lucky one? Well, why not? Only the lucky archeologist will find the rarest artifact, not the most experienced one. You can help your rng (aka luck) by spam tomb as much as possible. That sounds fair to me.

 

Long story short, i agree with OP. RNG gives us not so easily reachable goals which keeps the game more enjoyable.

Except when you spam 300 runs and get nothing, while someone spends virtually no efforts and time get the thing you want for too long.

 

When you attach RNG to a grind, depend on how you attach it, it can be either enjoyable or prolonging. For example, the Nexus chest with 10 pieces formed a box. If you are lucky, you get like 2 boxes per run. If not, you still have like 3 pieces that can be used to combine with the pieces gained from next run.

 

The word need to be emphasized is "You still have something". RNG that boosts the chance to get more than you can get is good and blessed. Even if you are not lucky, you still achieve something.

 

RNG attached to a grind that results either you have everything, or you have nothing, is bad. It is like Premium Transformation Stone. You waste a lot of things to gamble with your 30% chance, while you rather to use x3 the amount of materials to get a 100% chance instead. Or NCSoft can be smart here, selling an optional ingredient to ensure 100% success, but it would still make total cost being x3 the materials.

 

About being legendary or epic or whatever you call it, it should be hard to earn, yeah. But not through RNG where you ridicule people's efforts. Every Tomb run takes 20 minutes, just to buy a lottery ticket with RNG to proc the drop of the necklace. You may see it in below ten runs, or you may not even see it once after 300 runs. What the latter players think about being unlucky? Unfair, frustrated, and might quit the game, stop providing any further profits cuz they could not tolerate the RNGesus anymore. The first might be happy for now, until they hit the same wall of RNG to test their willpower.

 

Let say we change it to the token system. After 300 runs, it would have enough tokens to get the necklace. If I have money, I can buy any extra tokens drop during the run, then the total runs would be shorterned to 100-150. You feel it worthwhile the moment you achieve the necklace, cuz it is the crystal of your efforts. Meanwhile, if the necklace drops from the bless of RNGesus, then I would feel blessed.

Edited by Alysha Hawkeye
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9 minutes ago, SoulsHunter said:

How is it fair? Some people get it after countless runs some people get it 1st run. You stated that people wants everything which is a big problem. Guess what? You stated that RNG let people get it in 1st run and you stated it is fair. Logic?

 

Like I said earlier RNG is not Grinding. RNG counter grinding and makes the game looks unfair and not fun to play.

 

RNG counter wallet warriors too and makes us look like dumb customer paying for things other people get in 1 run.

 

Let me state it again RNG is gambling, not grinding.

 

PS: you don't need plates in Monster Hunter to be good at the game. But in BNS you need RNG for every stops in the game (upgrade). Without being lucky in RNG you can't even move past blackram narrows.

Every mmo needs both, grind and rng to provide some entertainment. And you can enjoy literally 100% of the game content without legendaries. So the rng/luck factor is fair. In my opinion. Period.

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Just now, SilentOne said:

Every mmo needs both, grind and rng to provide some entertainment. And you can enjoy literally 100% of the game content without legendaries. So the rng/luck factor is fair. In my opinion. Period.

Except that the RNG in BNS starts right at the beginning when you upgrade your hongmoon weapon to level 5, at that time your char is only level 7? And RNG will accompany you from then on all the way as it get worse and worse with accessories. No you can't literally enjoy 100% of the game content without upgrading your weapon and accessories, so RNG is not fair here in this game. I even mentioned that its fair for me too in cases like monster hunter.

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9 minutes ago, Alysha Hawkeye said:

Except when you spam 300 runs and get nothing, while someone spends virtually no efforts and time get the thing you want for too long.

 

When you attach RNG to a grind, depend on how you attach it, it can be either enjoyable or prolonging. For example, the Nexus chest with 10 pieces formed a box. If you are lucky, you get like 2 boxes per run. If not, you still have like 3 pieces that can be used to combine with the pieces gained from next run.

 

The word need to be emphasized is "You still have something". RNG that boosts the chance to get more than you can get is good and blessed. Even if you are not lucky, you still achieve something.

 

RNG attached to a grind that results either you have everything, or you have nothing, is bad. It is like Premium Transformation Stone. You waste a lot of things to gamble with your 30% chance, while you rather to use x3 the amount of materials to get a 100% chance instead. Or NCSoft can be smart here, selling an optional ingredient to ensure 100% success, but it would still make total cost being x3 the materials.

 

About being legendary or epic or whatever you call it, it should be hard to earn, yeah. But not through RNG where you ridicule people's efforts. Every Tomb run takes 20 minutes, just to buy a lottery ticket with RNG to proc the drop of the necklace. You may see it in below ten runs, or you may not even see it once after 300 runs. What the latter players think about being unlucky? Unfair, frustrated, and might quit the game, stop providing any further profits cuz they could not tolerate the RNGesus anymore. The first might be happy for now, until they hit the same wall of RNG to test their willpower.

 

Let say we change it to the token system. After 300 runs, it would have enough tokens to get the necklace. If I have money, I can buy any extra tokens drop during the run, then the total runs would be shorterned to 100-150. You feel it worthwhile the moment you achieve the necklace, cuz it is the crystal of your efforts. Meanwhile, if the necklace drops from the bless of RNGesus, then I would feel blessed.

omg, imagine a game without the damn RNG. Eventually you would grind everything. No more things to farm, no goals, no joy. RNG and MMO belongs to each other.

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17 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

Every mmo needs both, grind and rng to provide some entertainment. And you can enjoy literally 100% of the game content without legendaries. So the rng/luck factor is fair. In my opinion. Period.

Legendary is luxury, but it also a measurement of the effort/time and money you spend in game.

 

If you feel not need for it, you can just ignore it.

 

However, if you want to see your character progress, of course, you want to see them getting stronger, thus resulting the grind for legendary items. They rather select a slow but steady way to progress, instead of everything-or-nothing RNG driven system, I believe.

 

Thinking something fair cuz it is not something you would worry about is not an opinion that I would agree with you.

 

In any case, I have feeling that people mistake about the complaint on RNG. I don't think players ask to make the thing easier to get, but something that would emphasize the growth and progression. RNG does not represent the growth grind very well, in this case, cuz it is a test of luck. You will grind less or grind more, depend on how lucky you are. In the end, they all end up in the same results. How is it fair when people grind less get the same with people grind more?

 

Through luck, people who grind less can get thing sooner, okay. But what about unlucky players who have to grind more and might still achieve nothing?

 

In term of progression, luck should act as a shortcut, but not the method to gain something.

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

omg, imagine a game without the damn RNG. Eventually you would grind everything. No more things to farm, no goals, no joy. RNG and MMO belongs to each other.

Depend on how you make the grind enjoyable. If you have to resort RNG to prolong a grind cuz you cannot think of any way to make players running the thing, I would say it is a bad system.

 

I don't know if RNG would bring joy or goal. For now, I only see people getting frustrated due to efforts is just a test of luck. 

 

RNG, however, when does right, will certainly bring joy and make players feel the game worth playing more. Extra tokens from an event box. A sealed skin from opening a Pirate Box. Extra soul shields from boss box. Venture  Tokens from daily box.

 

Yeah, as long as RNG being a sub-element, not main, it can become enjoyable and joyful things.

Edited by Alysha Hawkeye
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9 minutes ago, SoulsHunter said:

Except that the RNG in BNS starts right at the beginning when you upgrade your hongmoon weapon to level 5, at that time your char is only level 7? And RNG will accompany you from then on all the way as it get worse and worse with accessories. No you can't literally enjoy 100% of the game content without upgrading your weapon and accessories, so RNG is not fair here in this game. I even mentioned that its fair for me too in cases like monster hunter.

wrong quote, ahem. You can get break weps throught the keys, so its not rng.

4 minutes ago, Alysha Hawkeye said:

Legendary is luxury, but it also a measurement of the effort/time and money you spend in game.

 

If you feel not need for it, you can just ignore it.

 

However, if you want to see your character progress, of course, you want to see them getting stronger, thus resulting the grind for legendary items. They rather select a slow but steady way to progress, instead of everything-or-nothing RNG driven system, I believe.

 

Thinking something fair cuz it is not something you would worry about is not an opinion that I would agree with you.

 

In any case, I have feeling that people mistake about the complaint on RNG. I don't think players ask to make the thing easier to get, but something that would emphasize the growth and progression. RNG does not represent the growth grind very well, in this case, cuz it is a test of luck. You will grind less or grind more, depend on how lucky you are. In the end, they all end up in the same results. How is it fair when people grind less get the same with people grind more?

 

Through luck, people who grind less can get thing sooner, okay. But what about unlucky players who have to grind more and might still achieve nothing?

 

In term of progression, luck should act as a shortcut, but not the method to gain something.

 

 

 

 

if luck would act like a shortcut, then winning a lottery would be just a shortcut to became a billionaire. Luck and rng is actually the same thing.

Edited by SilentOne
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5 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

sorry, but luck as a shortcut is not luck anymore. By this logic winning a lottery would be just a shortcut to became a billionare.

Exactly, I am saying that I don't want RNG, luck, fate, destiny, whatever you call it because it is NOT FAIR.

 

Winning a lottery and becoming a billionaire seems fair to you?

 

I do NOT MIND grinding, because I work for it. I work hard and become a billionaire. Seems fair to you?

 

Ok I saw your edit: but getting keys and opening the box is still RNG, there is no guarantee you will get your weapon.

 

Edited by SoulsHunter
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4 minutes ago, SoulsHunter said:

Exactly, I am saying that I don't want RNG, luck, fate, destiny, whatever you call it because it is NOT FAIR.

 

Winning a lottery and becoming a billionaire seems fair to you?

 

I do NOT MIND grinding, because I work for it. I work hard and become a billionaire. Seems fair to you?

 

Why do you keep contradicting yourself? You know it's not fair but you keep insisting it to be implemented -.- I'm getting tired from this.

ah, so i found the key point over which are we arguing. Yes, i think winning a lottery is fair. If you trying you either win or don't win. And if you win, its suddenly not fair?

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Just now, SilentOne said:

ah, so i found the key point over which are we arguing. Yes, i think winning a lottery is fair. If you trying you either win or don't win. And if you win, its suddenly not fair?

I see, so you don't mind playing a lottery. I guess it is just that our opinion is different. I don't want to log in to an mmorpg to play a lottery. I want to play a challenging game when I put in hard work to achieve something. BNS is fun to play, I am just disappointed that there is too much luck involved which makes me feel like my effort is going down the drain.

 

I support OP for grinding portion. But I don't support the RNG portion.

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7 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

ah, so i found the key point over which are we arguing. Yes, i think winning a lottery is fair. If you trying you either win or don't win. And if you win, its suddenly not fair?

Cuz gear progression should not be a lottery?

 

Take a look at Windrest pouches. They are certainly lotteries. You win either 10g, 100g, 1,000g or 10,000g, or just a fortune potion. Is there anyone complaining about increasing the rate? Nope? Does people posting their 10,000g gingsen make you feel jealous? Yes. Frustrated? No, cuz you know that he is just lucky. Will you test your luck to being rich? Depend on your mood. Are you forced to buy pouches? No.

 

What about Draken Necklace? "Hey, I get this in first try!", while you do 300 runs and get nope. Jealous? Yes. Frustrated? Yes, cuz that guy is lucky, so lucky. Will you to test your luck? You have to. Do you feel forced? Yeah, cuz you're like an hopeless idiots that don't know when you can get the necklace, and testing your luck is unfortunately the only darn way.

 

Edited by Alysha Hawkeye
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i simply like when the not really needed items are blocked by rng wall. It gives me the will to spam it. And if i dont get it? Well, whatever, maybe i will get it next time. Im not saying that rng is the best solution in every case, but here, kinda, yeah.

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I have not created any alts recently, do we get any viridian brilliant key in the survey? If not, the needed items are still blocked by rng wall. And don't forget we only have 1 or 2 brilliant moonwater key so the needed items are always blocked by rng in this game. Now that silverfrost is out, we shouldn't be stuck at moonwater due to rng.

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49 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

Every mmo needs both, grind and rng to provide some entertainment. And you can enjoy literally 100% of the game content without legendaries. So the rng/luck factor is fair. In my opinion. Period.

Not really at some point only aviable (and needed upgrades) will be legendary stuff, from weapon to anything. At Blade and Soul Legendary mean nothing and are part of the regular gear progression and yeah, current ring and neck are part of that progression in special after the removal of Oblivion stage.

 

Optional legendaries is what WoW with legion have right now.

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3 hours ago, SoulsHunter said:

I have not created any alts recently, do we get any viridian brilliant key in the survey? If not, the needed items are still blocked by rng wall. And don't forget we only have 1 or 2 brilliant moonwater key so the needed items are always blocked by rng in this game. Now that silverfrost is out, we shouldn't be stuck at moonwater due to rng.

 

4 hours ago, SoulsHunter said:

Except that the RNG in BNS starts right at the beginning when you upgrade your hongmoon weapon to level 5, at that time your char is only level 7? And RNG will accompany you from then on all the way as it get worse and worse with accessories. No you can't literally enjoy 100% of the game content without upgrading your weapon and accessories, so RNG is not fair here in this game. I even mentioned that its fair for me too in cases like monster hunter.


RNG from level 5 all the way to level 50 is an absolute piece of cake. If you have any sense of working for something, you can progress from hongmoon weapons and accessories to true infernal weapons and accessories without the slightest problem. Or maybe I'm just one lucky *cricket* who can do that every time. But the way I see it, real RNG starts at level 50, which is only fair.

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just keep playing on the most comfortable pace that you have... and just enjoy what you like about the game.. you have alot of things to do and a lot of things to pass... pick on the things you do best... we all have one destination anyways.... it's just like a a plane people pay super expensive for business class some just go for the regular... they paid alot to sit on a comfortable spot while some paid a good amount for a regular sit... the only good thing about the game vs the plane is that we can ride it for free but we are sitting on the worst part of the plane... lol but we only got 1 destination though...

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