Why is Ice Build not popular in F8?

[Half]

@Zedonia:

Do you use ice tab on stage 3? I do not. ^^ But anyway ... I never use posions except I'll taking 2 or 3 stacks of asuras poison without summoner or sf in group (so i normaly don't need to buy antidots - sheeper).

 

@SoulsHunter:

If you want to max you dps you have to use all 3 Cold Snap in raw, because your cast speed accelerates with consecutive use. I don't want to tell you how to play (and nobody cares about Junghado), just wanted to say it.

 

@Mirryn:

How I said, you can't use stage 2 because you need the freeze. You can only skill it on burning build, but yes - not much thread reduce at all.

 

@Southwind:

1. It depends on the situation. I need heal at Asura, because I don't want to use antidots or Taikahn without healer in party or if server lags like today. Maybe we need it in upcoming dungeons, idk.

3. Not true. I would play on another specc if ice would be that bad.

 

@SheeOri:

On 2.11.2016 at 10:28 PM, SheeOri said:

[...] Not doubting you or discrediting the ice build but maybe you could show us your dps meter (maybe just a screenshot of the dmg of the skills since taking a video poses a problem).

A screen for you.

 

 

I tried to find a group without another FM, WL, destro or BD, because they would change Flame Palm S1 --> S2, Ice Rain -> additional Awakened Ice Rain and/or using Mystic Fire. And I tried to get into a dungeon where dps don't depents too much on mechanics (asura would be bad because too much damage increase or decrease),

 

Now to the picture:

FM has 676 AP, 61% crit, 225% cdmg and no legi weapon. After not such a great start I tanked most of the time. Both mates has lower AP, so ignore there dmg done. This was just a normal run, not the perfect one and also not a bad one. Additional I had sometimes the blue buff.

 

Skills from top of the list too bottom:

Ice Rain T5S4

Force Blast T5S4

Frost Palm T2S1

Flame Palm T5S1

Dual Dragons T3

Dragonfrost

Frost Fury T3S3 (ikr S1 does more damage, but healing effect is much better then that little damage increase - just my opinion)

Snowball T3S1

Cold Snap T3S3

 

You can see Ice Rain is my main dps and can be used up to 1/3 of the time (without other frost FM!). 44% of damage done is ok. On some other bosses I can reach far above this (example 2nd boss in Asuras dungeon - no burning FM can reach my damage there except he has much more ap). A 2nd or 3rd Frost FM increase the possible time to use my Ice Rain up to 2/3 or the whole time. The Awakened Ice Rain with WL is just OP. Force Blast do no that damage like Blazing Beam, but just need a frozen boss and no burning boss. So I don't loose that much dps to burning build (max 1,5k-2k dps unbuffed). With burning FM Flame Palm can be increased until dmg by Frost Palm, but then I have no Dual Dragons. Finaly it's a very little damage increase. Frost Fury is used for 3 frost orbs. Snowball does more damage then Blazing Beam. In future with T5S1 that can be a huge damage increase.

 

At least I can say, even without blue buff or any other buff I can reach 20k dps depends on how I'm playing. With HM11 I can use Meteor Shower without burning FM too. Also I want to get that amulet which decrease cooldowns of Cold Snap by 9s.

 

Let's say burning FM can do 10% more damage then frost FM (what I don't beleave) I would stay on frost. It makes much more fun for me.

[SoulsHunter]

@Half I personally feels that there is no need to use 3 in a row. As long as you use 1 within 15s or less, it is the same as when you use 3 in a row. But if you don't use it all up at once, you will be able to choose to use it when boss is standing still.

 

Of course it does not matter if you are already overgeared and just want to showcase your max dps. Then I understand casting 3 in a row is more convenient because no need to think.

[Zedonia]

15 hours ago, Half said:

Do you use ice tab on stage 3?

Of course not. I put 1 point into it and the rest comes from the badge. Yes, i will stop using it as soon as the current tokens become tradeble because I don't need the 20% more heal in pve but I also won't run ToI 200 times to get the inferno/meteor badge now.

 

Your damage on yeti is pretty good for the stats. Well, I can't really compare it and it would have no use to do it myself because my stats are all much higher. Maybe I will check it out for myself but I doubt it can really compare with burn build.

 

Edit:

 

Ok I tested it. After dummy practice I did tower 9-15, yeti and lair. Dps is ok but not more. It's significantly slower and lower dps than burn build. In lair I reached only about 24k dps on the big boss with blue buff in party. That's really weak compared to burn build where I can reach 30k even without buff. There wasnt much I could do wrong because the fight wasnt that long and no mechanics had to be done. For yeti I also reached 23-24k dps (without buff here but with destro grabbing once) while tanking him.

 

Even the burst with ice rain is worse than burn build and with cold snap on cd the damage is just bad. Instant double inferno can't be used and that's a huge dps loss. I'm sure I havent done everything perfectly but the main ice build mechanic is clear. Its nice if you like it but burn build kills the dps easily, is easier to do and you dont have to watch out that you dont get interrupted in burst phase.

15 hours ago, Half said:

On some other bosses I can reach far above this (example 2nd boss in Asuras dungeon - no burning FM can reach my damage there except he has much more ap).

Thats also an interesting point. Why do you think no burn fm can beat you on that boss? There is nothing special there what makes ice better.

[Half]

On 5.11.2016 at 5:55 PM, Zedonia said:

Thats also an interesting point. Why do you think no burn fm can beat you on that boss? There is nothing special there what makes ice better.

Easy to say: 90% of the damage time is burst damage and (Awakened) Ice Rain is stronger then burning build. I don't know why you're thinking Ice Rain does less damage. Never saw any burning FM (except he has better gear)

 

Anyway, how to play frost is not that clear at all. You can loose alot of dps if you don't know enough about it. While multi run yeti I saw a FM who said "how you can do so much more damage then me with frost build? I tried frost build but it does less damage. He specced to frost and tried it again. At least he does around 1k or 2k dps less. But in fact he had a terrible rotation. Equip was similar to my one. The fact that you say you do around 25% more damage with burning build tells me, that you played frost not very well. Let me say it on another way: You say indirect every FM i saw for all the month I'm playing BNS on 50 with frost specc I always saw people doing less then 20% of there possible damage? NO ONE could reach 85% of possible burning build dps or higher?

 

I tried burning build too and I can't reach more dps.

[TJXX]

20k dps is kinda meh for those stats really.  If there is 1 warlock I do near 30k, if there's a grab class I'll do near 25k, if it's just a solo/duo with no buff classes it's 19-21/22 depending on how well I play and my stats are lower than yours, frost build does ok damage because FM is so strong, but it simply doesn't compete with burn.

Stats/gear of the FM I play.

https://bnstree.com/character?r=na&c=caustic+suda

[Zedonia]

14 hours ago, Half said:

90% of the damage time is burst damage and (Awakened) Ice Rain is stronger then burning build.

Are you sure? As I said, double instant inferno alone deals around 100k damage. You will need some hits with ice rain (not awakened) to deal that damage. Right after that burn build starts the normal rotation which is definitely not weaker than ice build. I dont mention meteor because you can use it in with both builds. Did you tested out awakened dragonchar? It's the most destructible skill a FM has now because it's simply non-stop max. dps spam (short fuse before). I didnt had a WL with me using ice build but judging from the ice rain damage I doubt that the awakened ice rain is better than dragonchar so there is no more burst using ice build.

 

A screen from necropolis final boss with a WL would be nice. There you have 1 burst and the fight is over. What dps and time numbers can you reach in tower 13-15? Best would be to run dungeons together but our stats would still differ alot.

[Southwind]

15 hours ago, Half said:

(Awakened) Ice Rain is stronger then burning build.

Wait what? :D Please don't post such statements cause smn will belive. Just compare stats of HM 2, and watch video (from TW but i didn't find anything else on yt with HM 2). In EU/NA version, with 700 ap, and WL in pt i am making near 40k dps on Lair, try to reach it with frost build.

 

 

 

 

[Half]

4 hours ago, Zedonia said:

Are you sure? As I said, double instant inferno alone deals around 100k damage. You will need some hits with ice rain (not awakened) to deal that damage. Right after that burn build starts the normal rotation which is definitely not weaker than ice build. I dont mention meteor because you can use it in with both builds. Did you tested out awakened dragonchar? It's the most destructible skill a FM has now because it's simply non-stop max. dps spam (short fuse before). I didnt had a WL with me using ice build but judging from the ice rain damage I doubt that the awakened ice rain is better than dragonchar so there is no more burst using ice build.

 

A screen from necropolis final boss with a WL would be nice. There you have 1 burst and the fight is over. What dps and time numbers can you reach in tower 13-15? Best would be to run dungeons together but our stats would still differ alot.

Instant inferno deals not 100k dmg or do you have a 100% crit chance? And yes Ice Rain should be strong enough. I don't know how it is with legi weapon (cd reset) ... that's a point I really want to analyze, but first I need to get it. It could be change something.

Awakened Dragonchar ist better, of course. I knew this and I can't unterstand why an aoe makes more damage then a similar single target spell. If you use it on 2nd boss of Asuras dungeon ... ok then burning build does more damage. But who skills it just for one easy boss? Anyway, the other point is to use it the whole fight like the video Southwind posted. Idk how he never run out of focus except 2 or 3 short times. If you can in this way then I have a similar question to topic: why is dragonchar T5S1 not popular in F8? What makes Blazing Beam better then - as long as there's a WL in party?

 

I don't look that much on time and dps in tower, but I got 2min achievement of Naksun with 650AP.

 

@Southwind:

 

But ok that was a short fight. ^^ Today in morning I reached ~70k dps on last boss at tombs after start. I stopped damage because our tank was a WL and I shouldn't have more damage then. (That's the reason why I checked dps on fight.)

 

Ok now I want to say something too:

The question of topic was "Why is ice build not popular in F8?" and people said "less damage". The funny fact there's the most popular build (with Blazing Beam and even NOT with Dragonchar) does not significantly more damage and nerly every FM I meet there do less damage then me ... even with more AP. 2nd funny fact is: Some days ago I met 2 frost FM in party. First one was in party with me and another burning FM. I had lowest AP and burning FM had highest AP. Most times I had highest threat and burning FM never had it. 2nd frost FM this day I asked: "What's your experience compared to burning FMs?" and he answered something like: "Normaly I have highest threat, so I think I do more damage". Ok that doesn't mean that he do every time more damage (thread reduce on burning FM), but even not much less.

 

I'm pretty sure there're 2 reasons to answer to topics question.

1. People just think frost build can't reach as much damage as Blazing Beam build (daily practice cannot agree).

2. People can't play well with ice. Some people said "I like to play ice more, but I cannot reach dps like on fire" and other people said "It seams to be more complicated" (personally feeling).

[Mirryn]

Awakened Dragonchar S1 is used when you have a WL in the party...

if someone doesn't use it this way either they don't know better or they aren't confident with Fire build.

(or the fight doesn't play nice, like last boss of Masts or when you're marking in Tomb)

 

And your anecdotal evidence is annoying - you beat other FMS due to better ping (unless they are just trash and can't use a proper rotation) - it's not your build.

 

 

I have the exact same stats as you (675/60%/1661) and with 20 ping, I've hardly ever met anyone that can even come close, most 700+ FMs struggle to even keep up.... Do I run around telling everyone how much better than them I am because of my 20 ping tho?   Normally no...

(25k DPS before mechanics influences is about average for me)

 

 

 

MATHS will show you why Burning build (and Fire with a Warlock) beats the crap out of Frost for damage output - the rest is in the ping numbers, stop shaming high ping players... it's not nice.

 

 

 

To be clear... I'm not trying to say Frost is bad - if you enjoy it, it functions just fine - but it has no clear advantages, as it deals slightly less damage than Burn build, but has the same stationary target constraints that limit Fire build - which does slightly more damage than Burn build for the same constraints... and everything that was somewhat unique about it has been stripped away - that's why it's not particularly popular.

[Half]

You know that I am a high ping player? You don't? Why are you writing such nonsense if you don't know it? Very often I even cannot max dps because I can't change between fire and frost modus. Lag spikes interrupt my mouseclicks or other spells. So stop shaming me, that's not nice - thank you. And yes, ping is my highest dps loose normaly. I know some people who have worse connection, but only a few people (rest is similar or better then my connection).

 

Btw show me something too, please. I would like to see dps of people who think they can use any burning/fire build better then a normal FM in random parties.

[TJXX]

24 minutes ago, Half said:

You know that I am a high ping player? You don't? Why are you writing such nonsense if you don't know it? Very often I even cannot max dps because I can't change between fire and frost modus. Lag spikes interrupt my mouseclicks or other spells. So stop shaming me, that's not nice - thank you. And yes, ping is my highest dps loose normaly. I know some people who have worse connection, but only a few people (rest is similar or better then my connection).

 

Btw show me something too, please. I would like to see dps of people who think they can use any burning/fire build better then a normal FM in random parties.

I played a 400 ap kfm to get similar buffs to what you had in your screen shot while my friend played fm, we got 2 ice phases.

 

 

 

[Southwind]

@Half

First of all, you don't wanna prove anything with dps after Nexus mini-boss do you? It is pointless, as well as partial dps from the middle of the fight, cause it is about the ability to maintain dps durring whole fight. If i crit double inferno at the beggining i will have 100k+ dps so what? it won't be the same at the end of the fight. Beside FM on Your screen has crappy gear i bet, just by looking on HP and HM.

 

Blazing Beam burn build was most popular, but after the awakaned skills patch it is obvious to use HM Dragonchar when WL is in pt, its harder to master the rotation due to focus managment outside SB, but it is overall highly more rewarding. Without WL Blazing Beam burn build is still best choice, not only one, but still best in terms of dps and mobility.

[Half]

@TJXX:

Ty, but I wanted to see all used skills too. ^^ Wanna compare with FM in F8.

 

@Southwind:

It was a little joke. Ofcourse it was not a 5min fight, but it was the whole fight. Also I sucked at these mini bosses (got interrupted and so on).

 

 

[Zedonia]

15 hours ago, Half said:

Instant inferno deals not 100k dmg or do you have a 100% crit chance?

Of course not but with weapon buff above 70% and it's not surpsing seeing inferno at the end with 100% crits. Anyway, does ice rain always crit? It's noncrit damage is also shit and that's a thing you have to keep in mind in comparison with burn build: If your ice rain doesnt crit, your damage is really low. If lets say blazing beam doesnt crit but flame palm does, you will deal still more damage with burn build. Ice rain spam channels your skills for a limited time while burn build spreads your damage over more attacks. If ice rain crits it's all fine, if not, it's like noncrit multiple blaze => dps loss.

 

Our current problem in that discussion is that you say you don't meet burn build fm who can deal more damage than you with similar gear. I say the same about ice build fm. Now what is right? That's why I mentioned mushin tower. There you have a dps meter what can be compared. You can kill naksun within 2 min. That's good but that's not hard. I can kill him within 1 min. Can you kill mushin 3 within 1 min. running ice build? You simply cant compare dps with different conditions in dungeons like ping, buffs or whatever. Take a good burn fm with you and compare that dps meter than you can say ice build deals the same or more damage. From the skills itself ice build is weaker.

[KittyzOr]

you also need a good ping to play Ice Build.. most players play with 150~200ms so..

[TJXX]

https://www.twitch.tv/tjxs/v/99944363

Little video for the most effective way I've found to play ice build above, maybe I'm just doing something wrong, but after a lot of testing that's how I get the most dps.  It's very similar to fire build, but the F skills do less.

 

19-22k with ice build on the dummy where with fire I do 24-26k.

[Half]

Thanks for screenshot and video.

 

I checked out your frost rota and you loose alot of damage with Cold Snap. You put all 3 Cold Snap too fast, so you loose 3-4s of your main dps rota (burst phase), that's alot. That means your burst phase is up too 12s followed by 33s heal rota. Also you start your burst phase around 5s later as you could (38s instead of 30s non burst phase). You're using Blazing Palm T3S1, but so you're loosing over 1k dps compared too T5S1.  I know, you want to burn it with Force Blast S3 and instant Inferno S1, but in this way you also can't use your normal dps rota. That's Force Blast S4 instead of Frost Fury. In this way you do even more damage compared to Inferno. With Short Fuce T2(or better T3)S1 you can burn your target for Meteor Shower.

[TJXX]

3 hours ago, Half said:

Thanks for screenshot and video.

 

I checked out your frost rota and you loose alot of damage with Cold Snap. You put all 3 Cold Snap too fast, so you loose 3-4s of your main dps rota (burst phase), that's alot. That means your burst phase is up too 12s followed by 33s heal rota. Also you start your burst phase around 5s later as you could (38s instead of 30s non burst phase). You're using Blazing Palm T3S1, but so you're loosing over 1k dps compared too T5S1.  I know, you want to burn it with Force Blast S3 and instant Inferno S1, but in this way you also can't use your normal dps rota. That's Force Blast S4 instead of Frost Fury. In this way you do even more damage compared to Inferno. With Short Fuce T2(or better T3)S1 you can burn your target for Meteor Shower.

I tried using lmb/rmb/1 as my main rotation with auto detonate and it was around 4-6k less dps than this variation.  The instant inferno doing 80k+ damage brought my dps up a lot more than I lost using fury.  I noticed that using all 3 cold snap and getting 5 seconds of ice rain or spacing out it out and getting 12-13 seconds of it really didn't change my dps by more than 1k.

[Half]

That cannot be true. For easy calc I all numbers are crits. I do 90k dmg with Inferno (after upgrade to legi weapon 75k) and my damage increase is 7,5k dmg per less Frost Fury. I have 30s time to reach additional 90k dmg. 12 times I need to hit with Force Blast S4 to reach same damage. Every 2nd hit means i reach it in ~24s. Even if it is slower, time is enough for same damage AND autodetonate does 1k dps more. So minimum you should make 2k dps more. So how you could reach 4-6k dps less?

 

But your idea is definetly not bad. I want to buy the frost amulet which decrease cd of Cold Snap by 9s. That means less time to reach same dmg with Force Blast and instant Inferno should make little bit more dmg. But I would use Dragonblaze to get 5 embers, so that i can use autodetonate like usual.

[Zedonia]

May you guys tell me how you know your dps on a dummy?

[TJXX]

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 9:34 AM, Half said:

That cannot be true. For easy calc I all numbers are crits. I do 90k dmg with Inferno (after upgrade to legi weapon 75k) and my damage increase is 7,5k dmg per less Frost Fury. I have 30s time to reach additional 90k dmg. 12 times I need to hit with Force Blast S4 to reach same damage. Every 2nd hit means i reach it in ~24s. Even if it is slower, time is enough for same damage AND autodetonate does 1k dps more. So minimum you should make 2k dps more. So how you could reach 4-6k dps less?

 

But your idea is definetly not bad. I want to buy the frost amulet which decrease cd of Cold Snap by 9s. That means less time to reach same dmg with Force Blast and instant Inferno should make little bit more dmg. But I would use Dragonblaze to get 5 embers, so that i can use autodetonate like usual.

Not sure why I do more with my rotation, the only thing I can really think of is the instant double inferno.  If I do purely l/r/f vs l/r/1 then force blast beats it out, but when I do the full rotation the way I've been doing it-it just puts out more dps than force blast.  s1t5 vs s1t3 lmb is a very small difference really, around 150 damage max per hit, then the tiny auto detonate damage every few hits. 

 

The badge would be ok, but really Ice rain needs a buff.