nerf summoner pls

[Jackiesaysya]

The other day I fought summoner and when I won I wasn't at 100% health.

And now not 1...not 2...but 3 made it into top 50 rankings.

Something must be done!

Maybe take away all their heals? nvm we alrdy did that.

Or we could make it so that all their attacks are easy to iframe but our attacks our unblockable against their iframes? ohhh we alrdy did that too.

Maybe we could add a buff so that anytime summoner has kitty out has automatic 9 stacks of poison?

^ This hasnt been done yet. PLS BNS GIVE SUMMONERS 9 STACKS OF POISON ANYTIME KITTY OUT!!!

[Raizou]

Like i said in an earlier thread, delete summoner completly from the game, and then:

 

• never more complains, whinings etc.
• all will happy

 

but...:

 

• 9o% of the player base will leave immediatly ;)

 

 

*irony off*

[Volinus]

How to balance sum

1.Cat resummoning cost 25-35% health

2.Doom n bloom no longer penetrates defense

[Yunim]

20 hours ago, Raizou said:

Like i said in an earlier thread, delete summoner completly from the game, and then:

 

• never more complains, whinings etc.
• all will happy

*irony off*

Would only get them started on another thread to complain about. They complain instead of getting better. They complain because they are bad.

8 hours ago, Volinus said:

How to balance sum

1.Cat resummoning cost 25-35% health

2.Doom n bloom no longer penetrates defense

1. it's already a 5 seconds cast interrupted by anything. If the summoner manages to resummon it, you deserve to deal with the cat again. The summoner barely has self-heals anymore, this is not a balance chain, but the opposite of a quality of life change, and would even punish summoners for managing to outplay their opponents.

2. Doom n Bloom already has a huge delay from it's cast to it's applied. Any class except WL and SMN has enough iFrames to save 1 to iFrame this, hell, you can even save tank the pin spam until the smn cast DnB and iFrame with your tab in alot of cases, the smn can't deal enough dmg during pin without DnB to regain focus unless they are lucky on their crits.

[Volinus]

1.It's so easy to resummon. I play sum of cause I know that seed shroud is OP.

It's your responsibility to keep your cat alive if you fail to do so you should be punished harshly.

Cats are friends not disposable ammunition or burnable trash.

 

2.It's not a huge delay. Cast time is instant, animation is fast it successfully hits the target most of the time. Healing is high and cooldown is short.

You want it to be balanced like having 2.5s cast bar? or 3s connect animation like dragoncall? or 45s cooldown like leech?

Also you should know that sum is the only class that basic focus generation skill[lmb] can penetrate deflect so you can spam it mindlessly.

 

[Yunim]

1 hour ago, Volinus said:

1.It's so easy to resummon. I play sum of cause I know that seed shroud is OP.

It's your responsibility to keep your cat alive if you fail to do so you should be punished harshly.

Cats are friends not disposable ammunition or burnable trash.

 

2.It's not a huge delay. Cast time is instant, animation is fast it successfully hits the target most of the time. Healing is high and cooldown is short.

You want it to be balanced like having 2.5s cast bar? or 3s connect animation like dragoncall? or 45s cooldown like leech?

Also you should know that sum is the only class that basic focus generation skill[lmb] can penetrate deflect so you can spam it mindlessly.

 

You should know that WL also have that ;)
It's only easy to resummon cat if you manage to outplay your opponent with your limited arsenal (managing to blow their iFrames with 0 preassure before rooting them and summoning it) or you opponent is dumb as a bread (run away during stealth, they wait for u in the corner, u resummon in the other corner). Under no other circumstances can you get it up. And it should never happen. You losing the cat and having to fight with almost 0 skills is the punishment, you resummoning it is the punishment for your opponent (similar to hitting the KFM iFrames).

The delay is huge compared to other skills. It casts instantly, yes, but it doesn't connect until like a second or so after (not timed it, so exact time might be off). Anyone who knows about summoners should look out for it, and they should easily be ableto dodge it, unless the smn sets up a condition they can't (like pin -> tab escape -> stun DnB). The heal is not huge, but it's not 0, the heal on the cat is significant. having a 2.5 seconds cast bar would make it useless, EVERYWHERE. The connect animation is already there, but it's not 3 seconds like dragoncall (read above) and the skill doesn't hover in the air, you wave your staff, nothing happens, then it blooms on the enemy.

LMB alone deals like 0 dmg, you won't win against anyone using LMB alone, and with the exception of the Stage 2 bees, RMB doesn't pierce parry and deflect.

 

SMN is the lowest tier in PvP, and have been for a long time in KR, and have been here ever since silverfrost patch. There are 2 reasons you see alot of summoners in high ratings in EU/NA:
1: People prefer to complain about smn being OP and broken, instead of learning how painfully few tools they have, and how easy it is to completely ruin them

2: The sheer volume of summoners is crazy high. While some of us chose the class because it's a pet class, because it's cute, because it's all flowers and plants etc. there are also alot of summoners who rerolled to summoner for reason #1 and because they were legitimately too strong compared to others at lvl 45 (because we had lvl 50 balance patches with alot of other skills, HM skill and skill points available)

[Volinus]

Nope it's easy because seed shroud give speed boost+stealth.

WL doesn't have full time pet they need to stand still to summon downtime is high and the most important is that they don't have speed boost without pet so running away to summon at safe distance is out of option.

 

DnB is the most potent healing in the game in arena it doesn't restrict your movement like FM's and doesn't have any requirement like crit or other state.

You can compare health gain per time with any class sum triumph all.

 

Just by having lmb pierce deflect means you have 50% less chance to get deflected when switching lmb/rmb. Look at FM they get deflected all the time.

 

They have almost all the tools.

Double CC of all kinds at once/ Stealth+speedboost/ Pin /high healing/2 auto guard breaks with only 16s and 18s cd/ Disable charge/def/offensive-defensive at the same time

6 Def breakers / 10s anti-stealth DoT / Anti projectile+deflect barrier / when you got CC your cat can still CC with 4 skills

Sum has least overlap skills that you must choose one and discard others.

Everyone has sum because they're OP in term of how many mistakes they can make and still win. Plus least ping reliance.

In the beginning this game didn't even have this class why they made it? Because it's an easy class and make the game more softcore to get more players which is why it disrupts balance so much.

[Yunim]

45 minutes ago, Volinus said:

Nope it's easy because seed shroud give speed boost+stealth.

only if your enemy is bad, because you still need 5 seconds of them not touching you to summon it. You litterally need your opponent to stand still in the corner not chasing after you to pull it off. ANY remotely not bad player would move to the middle, so they can reach you in under those 5 seconds. EVERY SINGLE ONE. So your opponent is stupid if you can pull it off like that.

47 minutes ago, Volinus said:

WL doesn't have full time pet they need to stand still to summon downtime is high and the most important is that they don't have speed boost without pet.

I never made a point about the thrall. You claimed only smn has parry piercing on their LMB, I provided you with another class which also has it. If  you want full class to class comparisons, do it properly, not some half-assed attempt at strawmanning my argument.
You said only SMN has LMB Parry piercing, I told you WL does it too. Adress my argument, don't invent new ones.

 

and comparing the pet attributes of the 2 classes make little sense because the pets fill 2 completely different roles. WL's use their pet to put preassure and setup burst, Summoners use their pet to control the fight, the cat offers no direct offence preassure.

2 hours ago, Volinus said:

DnB is the most potent healing in the game in arena it doesn't restrict your movement like FM's and doesn't have any requirement like crit or other state.

You can (assume typo and you meant "can't") compare health gain per time with any class sum triumph all.

Potency doesn't meassure cooldown or other restrictions, potency is a direct meassure of power. DnB is not the most potent heal in the game.
It's a very time-efficient heal, and it has offencive potential and over an entire fight it will offer alot of healing.

But here's the thing, FM ice Tab has no counter, the FM can use it at any time as long as they are not CC'd.
If a destro gets a grab on you they can wedge you for alot of health, with no counterplay from alot of classes.
DnB has counterplay, it's delayed, allowing players to immune it.
Divine feil doesn't restrict movement either, but I'm not trying to compare those, just throwing in that healing spells with no restrictions isn't a smn exclusive and broken af.

 

Another point on DnB, it's a very strong ability, it's too strong. It's the summoners only way to regen focus reliably outside of LMB (unless you want to spec taunt into a 30+ seconds skill, you sacrifice defence cancelling ability for more focus on nettles etc.). Didn't count Dandelion since against better players counters are alot less reliable as they know how to bait them or avoid hitting them straight up. You can't go "a little in". you are essentially all in when you use DnB. Focus regen, gone, poison, gone (unless yo uwant to sacrifice focus dmg and offence-defence disable), reliable destealther, gone.
This is why the summoner is a weak PvP class. You have few skills, but few very strong skills. Your skills never serve 1 purpose, but you will almost always have to use them for 1 purpose.

 

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

Just by having lmb pierce deflect means you have 50% less chance to get deflected when switching lmb/rmb. Look at FM they get deflected all the time.

You wanna know why FM's get deflected? Because their attacks are rather slow projectiles. You can look at the FM's attacks flying, activate your deflect, and laugh as they get stunned. All melee classes have obviously shorter travel speed as they are melee, their attacks have no travel distance. Summoner and WL both have faster projectiles, making them harder to guarantee a deflect on. There are 2 different reasons to use deflect against the classes, mostly to do with the projectile speeds, not the parry pierce. Not saying it doesn't help, it certainly does for the ranged player. Allowing them to fill up their focus relatively cheap because the opponent decides to spam an ineffective ability.
Some abilities are stronger against certain classes, using the wrong skills and then complaining about their efficiency is just the thing I'm talking about.
Is Pierce parry OP, no. Is pierce parry good and helpful, yes, of course. Is spamming a deflect skill against deflect pierce something that warrants an OP label and complaining, certainly not.

 

The same argument goes for Counters. It's incredibly easy to counter a FM because their skills just travel slowly, it's relatively easy to counter-counter for instance KFM or SF as well. they/their projectile has a decently quick movement, but hitting into a KFM counter, gives you a free dandelion proc, or free stealth when the KFM counters your shuriken throw as a sin etc.
Plays and counter-plays.

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

They have almost all the tools.

So does every other class. Classes lack a specific tool or two, but summoner has more tools spread amongst fewer skills. Forcing them to waste their guard break if they wanna combo you, forcing to blow their situational escape to reset taunt on the cat, they want focus -> free to go stealth now etc.
Smn has 1 CC to use to save the cat, and that's the same CC they can tech chase with. Maybe you want to have another tech chase? ok, rip your deflect on the cat now, and backroll 12 seconds cd, teh cats only way to tech chase has 45 seconds.

Starting to see the limitations?

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

Double CC of all kinds at once/ Stealth+speedboost/ Pin /high healing/2 auto guard breaks with only 16s and 18s cd/ Disable charge/def/offensive-defensive at the same time

why would double CC matter in a PvP fight?
For that matter, your stun is essentially a single stun for the purposes of non-boss enemies (same goes for FM's Glacial Beam etc.)

Other classes can do much longer CC chains than summoner, smoother CC chains than summoner, more dmg preassure during their CC's
You miss the point where you can't attack from stealth. The stealth works entirely as a stall and reposition technique. Our pin is the only CC followup we have with dmg preassure. air combos from BM and BD? Air combo into pin from KFM? Close shave and double air combos from sins? Perma wittle down stun from FM? Grab from BD? Grab from destro? What's the special thing about the pin? All these combos have few or no escape opportunities, and many of them also have alot of damage preassure.

The summoner has several low healing abilities. Yes, they stack up over time, and quite abit of it can be avoided (Grabs, knockbacks out of petals, immunities on DnB etc. Huzzah is the only heal without counterplay from the summoner (10% every 30 seconds).

Auto-guard break? The games doesn't automatically guard break for you, and in many cases you can't even use them. Enemies moving away from the cat, making the cat use "Lunge" instead of "Power Pin" even while the enemy is guarding (counterplay) or due to the nature of RMB being used the previous sunflower will proc the counter before you are given the option to use the KD break, leading to the weird interaction where you both proc their guard, and knock them down at times.

Nothing is automatic about it, if I misunderstood, please clarify. Unless I misunderstood the abilities in question is also 18 and 24 seconds. one of them is also all your offencive preassure, meaning if you get an opening to deal good dmg during the pin, the opponent is 1 guard break safer, meaning you in a way counter-play yourself to kill your opponent. This again ties in with few and strong abilties cause limitations, a good player will abuse this.

 

Other classes can also disable defence, offence-defence, approach skills etc. as well, I don't see how this is something special to hail for summoner, aside from compiling a list of our tools. Some classes even have it easier than summoner to do this (chill from FM RMB will block approach). And other classes can remove these effects quite easily (clear approach block on BM's SS, 8 seconds cd, much shorter than any approach block from smn)

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

6 Def breakers / 10s anti-stealth DoT / Anti projectile+deflect barrier / when you got CC your cat can still CC with 4 skills

 

6 Defence breakers? :O
You mean 6 skills piercing defence skills?
Those skills neither interrupt or block the enemy defence, so I would highly contest calling them defence "breakers".
Clarification please :)

10 seconds anti-stealth dot? DnB does NOT last 10 seconds. DnB lasts 5 seconds, and applies an independant poison dot lasting for 10 seconds.
other classes can destealth with their AoE skills, many of whom are on their LMB, meaning infinite aims at the stealther. FM doesn't have their AoE LMB, but use a focus-free Impact to spam. Disadvantage WL and SMN. If the SIN fails to immune the DnB that means he will have to play outside of stealth for 5 seconds, smokescreen to resist all projectiles? any CC? Sins have a huge kit of skills, saying a Sin can't play around not being in stealth for 5 seconds because he failed a counterplay, and that this is somehow the summoners fault is popostrous.

 

Anti-projectile + deflect barrier: that is placed on the ground = counterplay. Flock of Blades and divine veil follow the player everywhere, allowing for 0 counterplay regarding projectiles (here the lack of focus regen plays a huge part, you can't regen focus with LMB now, meaning very limited damage and utility). The deflect barrier sucks, IF you stand inside it. Counterplay, kite off for 10 seconds, or go on the offencive, and push the summoner out of the petal storm. You can't state we have an ability, and call it borderline OP without considering the counterplay that is available.

 

CC when CC'd: And as a tradeoff we have 0 ground-game. We can't get up from KD, even using your F backroll at the wrong time leads to 100% fatality (unconsious status and dead cat is the easiest example). We have a huge lack of iFrames, any player should be able to heavily punish this , forcing us to sacrifice our CC preassure to save ourselves, while other classes get to use other abilities reserved to handle those situations (KD counter, QE iFrames etc.) Summoner plays the planning and rescue game, instead of the reaction and avoid game. Everyone always complain about the positives of the summoner design, always avoiding the negatives, further perpetuating the complain instead of counter mentality, which allows summoners to thrive.

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

Sum has least overlap skills that you must choose one and discard others.

This is demonstrably false, as I have shows quite well here I'd say. Summoner has amongst the most overlap, if not the most overlap between the use purposes of their abilities. Sacrificing alot of their tools because they absolutely need to use 1 aspect of the ability.

 

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

Everyone has sum because they're OP in term of how many mistakes they can make and still win. Plus least ping reliance.

Why do you think they can do many mistakes? Because people would rather complain about 2v1 and OP heals and a million CC's, instead of trying to figure out why they got beaten. Where other classes use tools to avoid the enemy attacks the summoner will let themselves get hit due to lack of avoidance skills, before tactically using their CC's to rescue themselves. Other players won't acknowledge this, and plays against the summoner as if they have the react and avoid style, before getting CC'd and the summoner rescuing themselves again and again. This allows for alot more leniency in skill use and planning required for the summoner, lowering the amount of tactical rescue, allowing for a larger degree of button mashing. The worse you play against a class the more mistakes they can make and still win, this is self-explanatory, but you act as if there is no way to punish them for this, I'm saying you should learn to punish it, instead of claiming you can't.

 

Yes, they are less ping reliant, react and avoid require more clutch timing than plan and rescue. They also have fewer skills, which means less overlapping on the buttons, meaning delays have less chance to mess up with the button changing available skills. On this point I agree, though I do disagree in how big part this plays in the player demographics (the NA has from what I have seen less ping issues than EU, yet you see a higher population of summoners there). I don't have hard statistics on this, so won't push harder either way on this point.

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

In the beginning this game didn't even have this class why they made it? Because it's an easy class and make the game more softcore to get more players which is why it disrupts balance so much.

The summoner was in-game from launch, although it was added very late in development. The summoner concept was changing from something resembling the current Warlock to a brighter cuter theme to attract more female players. The game is constantly balanced, considering this game is an E-sport in The East. Summoner has been in the lowest tier of PvP for many many patches in KR. Many patches we have had, where summoner still comes out remarkably on top in  the West. The difference is not in the game, but in the players. How can a class be one of the worst in one region, but considered broken by the playerbase in another? This comes back to the mindset. In KR people bother to learn to counter and punish the summoner, when this game was released in the west half of the classes in KR considered smn a "free win" in arena. In the west people would rather proclaim to be the best players there are, so summoner must be broken, instead of realising they don't ever punish the summoner for their playstyle, allowing the huge leeway to win or at least get openings or escape what would otherwise be a won game. How many summoners are heading to worlds this year? 1/16, and underrepresentation for the class (1/9), and even that is 1 more than what is normal.

[Jackiesaysya]

lol it's actually quite the opposite. Summoners in 1v1 have zero room for error.

Even when if we catch another class making a mistake and burning tabs early several times letting us cat pin them many classes can still easily just RMB us 3 times.

[Volinus]

6sec of speed boost cover so much distance. No melee class will remain in the center and get free pewpew there you pretend to resummon then bait into stealth and run at full speed now resummon again. Not every classes have speed buff to chase that long or have 16m non targeting to poke stealth. 

 

" You should know that WL also have that ;) " Nope you didn't talked about WL not at all.

 

You CAN compare health gain per time during one match how many %HP you gain on average. You play only sum that's why you don't know that HP you gain during one match is huge compare to other classes.

 

WL wingstorm travel in set interval > Deflected 

FM slow projectiles > Deflected

Sum? Sum's slow projectile pierce deflect DEAL WITH IT. Sunflower? it travels at light speed.

Range capability is balanced?

 

Nope, for example WL doesn't have disable offensive-defensive, oh you want to count and compare the amount of def/deflect penetration of each class and rank them up too?

 

Auto guard break? It's the skill that automatically pop up then enemy guard > Power pounce, Entangle 

Why they're good? Normally def breaker is not a discrete skill that automatically pop up that's why it holds the weight of syncing "when to push" with guard time.

With auto pop up you push it casually and immediately no timing required. Look at all those FM that missed their snowballs. 

6 Def breakers? Beckon / Flying Nettles / Briar Patch / Power Pounce / Entangle / Surprise gift

 

Sum still has tag team. FM? Tab F out of gas. CCs while CCed even make it more luxurious.

"Tactical Rescue" = "Recovering from mistakes"

 

You don't know the reason why there're less summoner in the ladder. It's not that they're weak but pros at tournament take their pride on "not choosing low difficulty class".

I have a "NOOB" stamp on my character even I won the match with sum :P

 

ps. PETA will get you if you let your cat dies.

[Grimzy]

LOL.... you really need to finally learn how to play against a summoner instead of making all these whiny topics on forum cause this is really getting old....

 

Seed shroud may give a speed boost but guess what...other classes have gap closers like FM, BM, BD...its not that hard to hit a summ out of rezzing the cat.

 

Summ may have roots that disable attack / defense skills but its nothing compared to the 4-5 escapes each class has to get out of them, plus we need to bait everything out first.

 

anyway point is there are a lot of whiny topics on forums about summoners instead you might aswel just spar with a summ friend and work your way to beat them. any good PVP player will tell you summs are their easiest match ups.

[Yunim]

2 hours ago, Volinus said:

6sec of speed boost cover so much distance. No melee class will remain in the center and get free pewpew there you pretend to resummon then bait into stealth and run at full speed now resummon again. Not every classes have speed buff to chase that long or have 16m non targeting to poke stealth. 

All melee can do that. Cat dead -> Stealth = run to middle to prevent the resummon -> stealth expires -> resummoning -> interrupted (lets assume they didn't go at you with a defence penetrating ability, like the KFM tab) -> counterbaited -> you run to the opposite corner (giving you more benefit of the doubt) -> the melee doesn`t stand around like an idiot, but runs to the middle -> destealth -> resummoning -> interrupted.
This will happen each and every time unless your opponent doesn`t know how to play against summoner or they simply forget, at which point they deserve the punishment or is a complete idiot. They don't have to poke stealth from 16 meters, because you need 5 FULL SECONDS of them not hitting you with anything, once.

 

2 hours ago, Volinus said:

" You should know that WL also have that ;) " Nope you didn't talked about WL not at all.

Here we go again ..... I never said I never talked about Warlock (2nd strawman you create and attack instead of what I said on the same point, smh).

You provided an argument, I proved it false. I never engaged in a full blown comparison of SMN and WL, and you starting to pull certain parts of it (the pets) and make a comparison of only hte weaker points of the thrall while focusing on the strong points of the cat, thinking they fulfil the same purpose and them having different uptime/summoning techniques is a textbook inbalance. It's a false premiss. the WL comparison is pointless to the thread, WL was only brought up to show you that your point about the SMN LMB was false. Please just admit your error on this point, don't invent things I didn't say, and make strawmans, further strawmans regarding this won't be replied to.

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

You CAN compare health gain per time during one match how many %HP you gain on average. You play only sum that's why you don't know that HP you gain during one match is huge compare to other classes.

Lol, I play every class. Next Assumption please. I never claimed summoners don't heal, show me where I claimed that. You also missed the point where I admit that if your opponent doesn't play around immuning the DnB, you will heal alot over the entire arena match, but similarily, other classes will also heal alot if you don't play around their COUNTERABLE HEALS. You can't prevent the initial healing on FM ice tab, but you can prevent the extra healing they get from attacking you, same with petal storm and divine veil. You can't prevent the Wedges from destroyer when you are grabbed, but if they decide to put up their block and you just  hit their shield and let them wedge you, they will heal alot. I'm not saying DnB isn't a strong healing source. I'm saying it's a great healing source over time. I was arguing your use of the word "potent" and telling you that it's on the hands of the enemy to immune the DnB to avoid the healing, not on NCsoft to remove/reduce it because you can't deal with it.
Please stop creating false arguments, respond to the actual arguments please.

And just so we are clear, SUMMONERS DO INDEED HEAL ALOT IN ARENA, BUT alot of it has counter-play, so counter it instead of letting them do it, then complain.

 

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

WL wingstorm travel in set interval > Deflected 

FM slow projectiles > Deflected

Sum? Sum's slow projectile pierce deflect DEAL WITH IT. Sunflower? it travels at light speed.

Range capability is balanced?

Wingstorm travels, so deflect that, don't complain about how you can't deflect Mantra

FM slow projectiles, I already said so
Summoners, similar to WL have an LMB you are not supposed to deflect. Git Gud Deflect other skills, stop complaining.
Sunflower, Weed Whack, Anklebiter, Strike! all have animational cues. You know, the thing yo urecognize on the big boss in 4-man, ye, use that in PvP as well. Different class, play around it differently. Don't think they can all be played against and beaten the same way and then complain when they can't.

 

Lets talk about focus regen skills:

SMN: LMB, DnB (immuneable, 18 seconds cd), Dandelion (4 focus every 8 seconds, IF you spam it and IF your opponent hits it every time, in which case he should be punished heavily for it)

FM: Fire C (16 focus over 30, or 10 focus over 18 seconds), Impact (3 focus on resist, 2 on breaking freeze), LMB, ice V (10 focus every 30 seconds), Fire Tab (6 focus if deflecting anything), Frost Fury, Fire Fury (1 focus each on every hit, up to 3 hits from each), Dragonfrost (5 focus, a huge mistake to use, loses the frost orbs) and even more regen opportunities.

 

I think the point for why Summoner has a way to regen chi on a parrying opponent more often than 18 seconds has been made clear.

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

Nope, for example WL doesn't have disable offensive-defensive, oh you want to count and compare the amount of def/deflect penetration of each class and rank them up too?

I never said they did? You claimed summoner has almost all the tools, I said that was not specific to summoner, you said warlock lack a tool. Nowhere did I disagree to this.

Feel free to compare it, but it won't matter much. Take for instance the paragraph above. That shows you why Summoner is given Pierce on LMB, but FM doesn't need that, because FMs have other tools to deal with the situation differently.
Compiling that list would only have the advantage of letting classes which use deflect look up which skills they should not try to play around parrying. That said, feel free to do it, will be fun trivia to see :)

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

Auto guard break? It's the skill that automatically pop up then enemy guard > Power pounce, Entangle 

Why they're good? Normally def breaker is not a discrete skill that automatically pop up that's why it holds the weight of syncing "when to push" with guard time.

With auto pop up you push it casually and immediately no timing required. Look at all those FM that missed their snowballs.

So it's not automatic, the game just shows you the skill when it's available? like every other skill in the game....
FM snowball doesn't show up when they are in fire stance, because it's not available. It always shows up in frost stance. If the FM wants to play around Snowballing the enemy defence, he can. By going LMB, RMB as his rotation, instead of RMB, LMB, or LMB, RMB, 2. Both of which puts him in fire stance for most of the time. The FM will always have the Phantom Grip available.
This is like claiming FM's rotation is automatic because whenever Dual Dragon is available it will light up and you can't use Dragonblaze or Dragonfrost instead.

oh, and btw, What about guard breaks like KFM and SIN, both of which lights up their Guard break, because it's not otherwise available?

 

Assassins guard break on RMB is even called "Guard break", see the game is even telling them what abilities to use with the skill names, must be sooo easy playing sin, the game basically hands you your next move in litteral writing :O huehue /s

 

Oh and look at the buttons for our (summoners) Guard break: Tab (not to mention this is also our 1 true offencive preassure, refer to prev post about overlapping and sacrifice) can easily be countered by moving away from the cat, causing it to be "lunge", so much for this guard break.

RMB: Look, it's coupled with our Sunflower, you know, the thing we least want to be countered, deflected, blocked when we anicancel. the thing that eats 3 focus on every hit, the thing which is so easy to use and completely waste when trying to entangle the opponent.

I'm not saying having guard break on buttons you use often is a disadvantage, it obviously is not, but it's not without consequences. It's up to the enemy player to counterplay this (you wouldn't block or counter when a FM stop anicancelling and ends in frost stance, you know the snowball is coming), you won't try to counter the summoner when they use RMB, you try to counter when their LMB is about to hit, or when you see the cast for a sunflower start, at those times you are safe to counter. Or as a sin, counter when the cat is launching towards you is a free counter and stealth. While in motion to charge you the cat can't use Power Pin, so the only thing the summoner can use it recall the cat blowing their 2nd escape, their taunt reset, their only 1 button press short duration, no-movement iFrame (what was this about sacrifice again).
 

Ye, no timing required, which is why I outlined several ways to counter the guardbreaks. And if you mindlessly just block and counter, why should countering that behaviour require a huge amount of timing? You are basically advocating being able to mindlessly attack a class with the least defences outside of WL without having to think about when to use defencive skills to gain more offencive preassure. Summoners most harshly punish mindless attacking, step up your counter-game.

 

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

6 Def breakers? Beckon / Flying Nettles / Briar Patch / Power Pounce / Entangle / Surprise gift

Briar patch and Flying nettles is the same skill, applied in different ways, sharing skill points, damage, effect and CC.
Beckon, hey, this thing about sacrifice again. Beckon disables charge, and hit a defending target, it's not a Defence breaker, it's a CC with defence penetration. Not rare.
Nettles/Patch it's an AoE, on the ground. Tell me the last time you countered the AoE left over from FM meteors, Sin poison breath, BM lightning draw?
It disables defences as well, that's something entirely different, use SS, boom, out of the defence break, now you can block as much as you want.

Power Pounce, wait? Guard breaks PENETRATES defence? Are you kidding me? Oh the balance!
Entangle, THEIR OTHER GUARD BREAK PENETRATES DEFENCE TOO?!?! :O WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?!?! :O

AoE, on the floor, enough said. Even then, other classes  get their own abilities to CC a guarding target, we get a CC that is still applied while the target is guarding. Ours have a delay (has to be planted) and is easy to counter because of this. Many classes have instant guard breaks with CC applied. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if you categorized this is a guard break useable at any time, like phantom grip tbh

 

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

Sum still has tag team. FM? Tab F out of gas. CCs while CCed even make it more luxurious.

Tag team is a KD recovery, if yo uget hit while using it you land yourself a new 1 seconds KD. same with all classes 1 skill. I'm talking about the other skills, like BM being able to block while KD'd, or Sins being able to Counter while being KD'd, in addition to the recovery you can use if your opponent gives you room. There is no harm in attacking a summoner who is KD'd, if you attack a sin he might counter, but if you stop attacking him he will get a free KD recovery with 1. Decisions decisions, no such thing exists for SMN.

I'm sorry, don't understand what you refer to with "FM? Tab F out of gas" Can't respond to the rest of the sentence, please clarify :)

 

3 hours ago, Volinus said:

"Tactical Rescue" = "Recovering from mistakes"

No, the summoner does not have the tools to avoid getting hit. You need to understand and accept this. It's the basic thing everything about the summoner is centered around. You have your counter, you have your petals for ranged attackers, you can hide inside the cat for single target attacks, but if someone throws a CC with defence penetration on you, you don't have a way to avoid that, you can blow your SS if yo uare quick enough (2 button presses, not 1 even), but then you are left with no mobility etc.
The Summoner will get hit, where other classes would use their low cd SS, or their EQ or other iFrames like Five point Strike. The summoner will get hit. The damage the summoner gets from casually getting hit all the time is off-set in it's higher heal count, which is why battles either end with one dead, or the other side wins, because the summoner will never win the damage tie, they don't mitigate damage, they heal it back.
The summoner can use their CC's either to attack or to save themselves when they do get hit. Here is where the planning comes in, if you use all your CC's, you can't rescue yourself when they hit you, because they will, you can't iFrame away from it to the same extent as other classes.
The KFM gets dazed and comboed like mad because he failed to use his Q to iFrame it, mistake KFM
The SMN gets dazed and then gets rescued by the cat because they saved strike for a defencive CC, Planning by the SMN
The SMN gets dazed and comboed like mad because the blew all their CC's to combo offensively or blew them into blocks and counters, mistake SMN

 

Do you see the difference?
The SMN getting caught isn't the mistake, the SMN getting caught without the CC's to protect itself is the mistake.
This is why I say it's different play styles and you need to adapt and counter SMN, not play your generic combos and game.

 

4 hours ago, Volinus said:

You don't know the reason why there're less summoner in the ladder. It's not that they're weak but pros at tournament take their pride on "not choosing low difficulty class".

I have a "NOOB" stamp on my character even I won the match with sum :P

Ladder and Pros at tournament is not the same, please distinguish, unless the pros at tournament is a top 2K players and you want to make the case that they are the top 2K players, and that the ladder is very different at 1-2K and from 2K1- the lower cap you set.

Pros: Play to win, with the class they love. If their pride was soo important and they didn't want to play a broken class, then why was there so many Warlocks last time, a class widely stated were much too strong, and that was giving credency by the huge nerfs Warlock got after the tournament. If they didn't wanna win with an easy class, why would they choose the strongest class they could find? And does this pride extend to high difficulty classes having more pride? Why don't I see 12 KFM's in the tournament then? If it was all about pride in difficulty.

The Ladder: The ladder consist of people playing their class, not everyone plays the summoner over there, so naturally there are fewer in the ladder. They also know how to play against it. Hence why you have alot of classes considering summoners in arena a "free win". You wouldn't consider a class a free win if it was incredibly easy to play and do well with. In NA and EU we have players choosing to play SMN because the rest doesn't bother to learn how to counter it. You wouldn't let a Warlock combo you in timewarp, then complain their damage was too high, so why do you let the SMN control you, playing into all their tools, not even attempting to punish them, because it's done differently from other classes. EU/NA bothered to learn how to tab the pin, and that is where you should blow it. Then they proceed with  "I tabbed the SMN pin, but he still won, this is unbalanced" with different reasons as to what is the problem. Then you have those who learn to play against the mindless summoner, they win against summoners, they rise up. Then they meet the summoners who also don't mindless spam, like they don't mindlessly attack, and you have a match about blowing cd's, punishing overreach from either side. Depending on who plays better, who punishes better, you get a winner. They rise the ranks, they reach higher ratings, to meet summoners who are better at conserving their tools, not giving as many openings to get punished. It's an armsrace, and you throw a temper tantrum because you didn't win the first round.
That "NOOB" stamp is either self-emplyed for buying into the meme about SMN being strong for winning without you having to play well, or it's assigned by others who buy into the myth about the OP summoner.
You wanna know why Streamers from KR playing BM said "You couldn't win against a summoner NOW" back at lvl 45? Because the game was balanced around tools not available to BM, whereas they were almost all available to the SMN. They indirectly said you could win later on. SMN wasn't impossible to beat forever, SMN is a low tier PvP class in KR, and has been for ages, but the restrictions placed in EU/NA (having lvl 45, not having other HM skills than BSH) advantaged Summoner enough to be a powerhouse.

This is also where the stigma comes from. ALOT of players rerolled to summoner back in BSH and lab days, because it was a huge advantage in PvP. They had a huge advantage, so why would you bother to learn to play against it, the worse summoner would win, your counters weren't available. So you rerolled to SMN, you declared it was izi-mode and you didn't need to know how  to play. People didn't attempt to counter it. Later now when other classes catched up, surpassed it, surpassed it even further, people still think summoner is unbeatable, have 9 favourable matchups (SMN vs SMN, SMN always wins, hurr durr) and a monkey can play it, so they still doesn't bother to learn to punish it.

PS: I don't mean literally you, I created the typical smn reroller and referred to it as "you", hope it wasn't overly confusing, apologies)

 

PPS: Peta is irrelevant, it's a terror organization with a good conscience. They terrorize you for your own good. If they actaully fought for animals well-being, instead of hyperbolic and violent sabotage that would be something else.

PPPS: I don't care very much about what peta does or does not. I love my cat and my cat loves me, we regularly die for eachother, so there's that :)

PPPPS: If you create more strawmen I will just skip over them in your future replies :)

[Volinus]

You say like 5s resummon is something not achievable by all mean which contradicts the reason why sum have root/speed/stealth in the first place.

 

You used WL as an excuse then denied that you used it.

 

The ability to use CCs while being CCed is comparable to the ability to recover from CC aside from 2 standard skills. Do you want to compare the amount of recovery you can use per time of every classes too?

 

Seed shroud is used to avoid getting hit. A typical block or 0.5s counter require much more precise timing to pull off and even after a successful counter you gain a little safe time compare to stealth that you can run for full duration.

 

 

My point was only "Health gain per time" then you went to "It's counter-able" which was not on the point. Counter this by that then follow by those there's always a counter, you cannot use counter as an excuse because it's the duty of player to ensure that the hit will land successfully. 

You tried so hard to diverge the conversation to an inconclusive one. If you keep adding variables to certain amount of equations you won't be able to solve it. 

 

I talked about ladder at kr tournament only. Many WL before nerf was just a surge of new product nothing more nothing less.

You boasted a lot about how sum is balanced now you label it with "free-win" tag? You're full of contradictions on yourself.

 

[Yunim]

2 hours ago, Volinus said:

You say like 5s resummon is something not achievable by all mean which is contradict the reason why sum have root/speed/stealth in the first place.

So we have a counter with stealth and a root, only to recover from the biggest mistake in PvP, even in PvE?
You won't ever be able to ress the cat against a decent player just by countering and running away.
If you manage to outplay him using only your daze on 2, root on 1 and counter on 4, leaving him stuck in a root, yes, you will have time to revive the cat. This means the opponent *cricket*ed up big time, so it's fair you get to resummon the cat. Huge mistake vs Huge Mistake = back to square 1. Completely fair.
I have no contradiction here, and the root and stealth is by no means something the class has purely for PvP purposes. Stop talking out of your ass, adress my points please.

 

2 hours ago, Volinus said:

You used WL as an excuse then denied that you used it.

 

2 hours ago, Volinus said:

excuse

17 hours ago, Volinus said:

Also you should know that sum is the only class that basic focus generation skill[lmb] can penetrate deflect so you can spam it mindlessly.

 

16 hours ago, Yunim said:

You should know that WL also have that ;)

 

10 hours ago, Yunim said:

I never made a point about the thrall. You claimed only smn has parry piercing on their LMB, I provided you with another class which also has it. If  you want full class to class comparisons, do it properly, not some half-assed attempt at strawmanning my argument.
You said only SMN has LMB Parry piercing, I told you WL does it too. Adress my argument, don't invent new ones.

I'll leave it to anyone who reads this to see for themselves.
I never claimed I didn't mention warlocks. But I only mentioned their LMB, as a way of proving the assertion in your post false.

 

2 hours ago, Volinus said:

My point was only "Health gain per time" then you went to "It's counter-able" which was not on the point.

 

On 9.10.2016 at 7:35 AM, Volinus said:

How to balance sum

2.Doom n bloom no longer penetrates defense

And you say I'm contradicting myself?
Your first mention of DnB is about how it should be easier to counter.
Then you complain about how it doesn't impair your movement, why it's soo strong (which it isn't, it's its short cd which makes  the total healing over time high, because people don't counter it).

 

2 hours ago, Volinus said:

I talked about ladder at kr tournament only. Many WL before nerf was just a surge of new product nothing more nothing less.

No one in their right mind would play a class in the world championship only because it's new or flashy. They had all played Warlock alot in the game already, they knew how to play vs all the classes with it. They knew no class would completely wall them.
The start-hype for WL does apply to the game in general, but no one would choose their character based on hype in the most prestigeous tournament. You don't even adress that many played it because it was strong, do you believe it was not too strong?
Speaking of the tournament; If it was about the pride of playing hard characters, why don't we see ALOT of KFM's? They are assigned the hardest class the same way SMN is assigned the easiest. The reasoning should work both ways, or something else should affect it if it doesn't. So I ask: What's is causing them to not play KFMs? Is there no pride in playing a hard class? Maybe the rating system isn't apt for PvP? Are ratings wrong? Then is there a chance the summoner rating is wrong? If not, how can you comfortable assert those classes have the wrong rating and summoner does not?

2 hours ago, Volinus said:

You boasted a lot about how sum is balanced now you label it with "free-win" tag? You're full of contradictions on yourself.

I haven't boasted anything in this thread:
Check your dictionary

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/boast

I have consistently just challenged your notion of OverPowered, in need of a nerf, etc.
I never made a claim to how well it was balanced.
If you want my opinion I'd say summoner is amongst the weakest PvP classes (an assertion I made in a previous post).
Is it balanced? No, but with the current design of the classes achieving balance will be near impossible, if not impossible.
Do I want Summoner PvP buffs? Not in it's current design. Summoner is a class  that is very strong against weaker players, while better players can easily deal with their tools.
Buffing the summoner would cause it to run absolutely rampant in lower ratings. Having a summoner class strong enough for be a good contender for top level tournaments would leave a very unhealthy PvP enviroment for  the rest of the player base.
Would I like a redesign of the class, keeping the pet and increasing the complexity, more abilities, less overlap, more pet control and something easier to balance across teh ratings, hell yeah, but I have no idea how to do that, and I have no say in what Team bloodlust's vision for the summoner class is. So atm I'm content with player a class that's lower tier in PvP.
If you want another example on how you intentionally underbalance a class, have a look at the champion Olaf for League of Legends. Riot even said they would not be able to buff him, despite him having one of the lowest win rates of all (44-46%-ish don't remember the exact number). Buffing him up to 50% winrate or competitive viability  would cause an extremely unhealthy enviroment in lower brackets of skill lvl. Players with lower skill would overwhelmingly not be able to handle and control him, due to the nature of his design. An Olaf with 50% winrate in challenger games would have something like 70% winrate if not higher in bronze rating games.
Summoner kinda works the same as Olaf does in League of Legends, in terms of balance goals across skill levels

[Volinus]

DnB shouldn't penetrate defense

V

Why?

V

Too high health gain per time

V

"But it's counter-able by iframe"

 

Is this even a proper counter statement?

Everything is blocked by iframe since it's the highest form of defense. 

Is there any attack that heal faster than DnB and only blockable by iframe?

[ARC1276]

How about you also extend the the CD of their Seed Shroud. These guys can do endless stealth better than sins can!

[Windy]

I don't understand why a class should be nerfed because :

On 10/8/2016 at 8:28 PM, Backstabpuss said:

 The other day I fought summoner and when I won I wasn't at 100% health.

In every duel you do loose ''health'',is normal .We can ask for any other class to be nerfed just because we didn't ended duel at 100 % health. I think those kind of things are a troll bait .The forums should be free of those -it's against of rules of conduct . 

 

[ARC1276]

Honestly scummoners do need a nerf though. They've literally won the match by doing nothing but aimlessly spamming their attacks and seed shroud. It's just...grrrr....

 

F*cking heck they just spam everything in a fight! It's just endless CCs with that cat and an endless supply of cancer being fired from the scummoner. 

[N3ro]

Id like to see how you dodge doom n bloom with iframes...

[Windy]

21 minutes ago, ARC1276 said:

Honestly scummoners do need a nerf though. They've literally won the match by doing nothing but aimlessly spamming their attacks and seed shroud. It's just...grrrr....

 

F*cking heck they just spam everything in a fight! It's just endless CCs with that cat and an endless supply of cancer being fired from the scummoner. 

I can say the same about the FM (perma chill) Destroyers  (spin to win and stun over stun) BM (super counter /deflects) and the list can continue .Every class has own style to fight .Yes some are just grrr.Every class ''spam '' something . Yet for me most annoying is the chill from FM-it really needs to be looked into.Is what i call ''mindless cc'' and ''cancer''.Because is just plain simple to spam rmb,lmb and have everyone in freeze.huh . And after you blow up all your evading arsenal -he will go heal .Gladly it has been reduced -yet noth enough - now please NCsoft ,nerf their chill .Forever.

[Nattia]

48 minutes ago, Windy said:

I can say the same about the FM (perma chill) Destroyers  (spin to win and stun over stun) BM (super counter /deflects) and the list can continue .Every class has own style to fight .Yes some are just grrr.Every class ''spam '' something . Yet for me most annoying is the chill from FM-it really needs to be looked into.Is what i call ''mindless cc'' and ''cancer''.Because is just plain simple to spam rmb,lmb and have everyone in freeze.huh . And after you blow up all your evading arsenal -he will go heal .Gladly it has been reduced -yet noth enough - now please NCsoft ,nerf their chill .Forever.

+1

 

Preach

[Grimoir]

10 hours ago, ARC1276 said:

How about you also extend the the CD of their Seed Shroud. These guys can do endless stealth better than sins can!

It is only endless if you are dumb enough to trigger it...that already tells me a lot about how "good" in pvp you are.

[hwalien]

I know there isn't much reference to compare class vs class but we really needs  to stop using Korean top OP pro gamers as reference.

99% of us will never be as good as they are.

 

Playing as BM, KFM, DES, BD., I don't have too much problem with summoners.

on my WL, I hardly win anything so that means I suck.

haven't played much on my FM but so far summers are the hardest class to go PVP.

[KroDuK]

one thing i did not understand from last "scum nerf patch" cuz finally they way more easier after that "nerf" before to heal cat u has to use huzzah leave the scumm vulnerable.. right now u press one button heal for 10% the scumm and 60% in 20-24sec the cat, i mean... nerf doesnt mean make that cat hardeer to cat right? TBH how can u nerf the FM and let the scumm go like that? #make the cat poundable again

[Skynemis953]

Summoners need a huge buff. They are the most under powered class in game in both pvp and pve. Please stop trying to make pvp easier on yourself and get good.