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DatChief

How come Sin...?

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DatChief   

I was wondering, a lot of people give credit / worship Sin's on BnS. They are no doubt one of the top tier classes, one of the highest Dps'er out of all of the classes with good utilities etc etc. If they are so good in terms of damage and skills as a class. How come they aren't ever top 5 in any of the 1 v 1 PvP rankings? In Eu, the top ranked Sin player is only rank 19 and on Na, its only ranked 8. Don't get me wrong, to even be placed top 100 out of the whole entire game for that region is SICK! but i'm looking in terms of the top of the pyramid. They are never up there (top 5). Why is that? Why are they only around the middle / lower tier of the ranking pyramid if what people say about them are so good and how they are a top tier class? To be fair on EU, its always either dominated by a Sum, Des or BM in the top 5 region (top of the pyramid). Mainly Sum and Des as top 5 for the past 2 seasons i've been playing through (just daily checking the rankings but not PvP'in).

 

I know people say Sin's are a difficult class and all that, i mean....someone that is 1.9k - 2k+ rating in PvP surely knows their class and knows what they are doing. They are not blindly mashing buttons like what 1.3k - 1.4k players are doing. So i don't really believe difficulty is the problem.....so what is it? Why are Sin's so lowly ranked when their image of what people portray are the completely opposite??

Edited by DatChief

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JatoJato   

Rumor has it they are playing bad in order to not get to high so that they will be constantly buffed after that they will enter worlds and win it :D.

 

Nah - joke aside - i think the thing is sin is not rlly better or worse than other classes at least in high elo. In lower elo-areas they feel very hard to beat due to the fact that you can not target them if they are invisible and do a intense amount of dmg if someone just tabs the wrong things (what i guess happens very often in lower elo areas). 

Also the "evade" feels very disappointing because sin is more or less the only class that has this rng effect - and yes i know kfm evades too - but there at least you can stop attacking and he will lose the evasion - sin has it automatically if he is invisible.

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DatChief   

So your saying in High elo PvP, they are easily countered cause people at that level are always aware where Sin is and they wont just press a random button to give the Sin that opportunity to open up on them? Especially since Sin relies solely on invis opener's to actually do anything at all?  I also don't understand the evade part that you mentioned. So are saying you that's an advantage how Sin's have it automatically when they are invis and classes like KFM doesn't or are you saying its disappointing? I don't even think something like that would be the deciding factor as to why they aren't at the top. Could it be their tools in comparison to what other classes have that separates that gap? Sin's tools are more for PvE / Dungeoning and not PvP? To be honest, i have no idea and that's what i'm trying to find out. What is the reason? I mean, I just don't get why  Sin's are portrayed as such a top tier DD, Dps'er when in PvP 1 v 1 they are, meh... Compared to some other more dominant classes that are top 5 every season. Prob they are top tier in PvE cause the mobs / bosses are standing still and they are free to go HAM but not the same in PvP?

Edited by DatChief

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JatoJato   

Yes i think high tier players are more aware of the cds the assa has, the position he has and how to properly react/counter his movement - also of course they will not spam rdm things ^^.

 

If the sin has "luck" of course it is an advantage. If he does not evade it is not that hard of a disadvantage because everybody would expect it to un-stealth the assa.

 

It also is disappointing if you play against a sin, hit him and read "evade", "evade", ... on a constant basis. In my opinion rng is not very suitable as a PvP-Element because there only skill should matter not good or bad rng.

 

But as i said i think both of those points matter more in "lower elo-areas" then they do in the top tier.

 

As far as i know sin combos are hard to do perfectly right, in high elos players are better to react and disturb the combo i think. If your combo is destroyed and the other player does no spamming that allows you to get invis again you can not do that much. Also i think in top tier the sin escapes do not matter as much as they do in lower elos because top tier players can adapt faster and make new combos compared to lower elo players.

 

Top tier pve is measured solely on dmg. And undoubtetly sin does a lot of dmg - sometime i think the most there is. Ok after the BM buff this might not be true any more ^^.

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Shiune   

So first of all SIN is really not an easy class to play at max potential in PvP. 

 

2nd: Ryuki, the top assassin on EU, is always deranking if he's too high so the current number 1 SIN on EU is not the best SIN on EU. 

Also he's not playing very active lately afaik. 

 

3rd: The latest patch buffed Summoners and BMs extremely good which makes those classes a bigger pain in the azz as they were before anyway (though SIN got buffed aswell). 

 

The class assassin itself is still a top PvP class but there are only a very few people which can actually play the class close to perfect and therefore there aren't so many high SINs in the leader board. 

Edited by Shiune

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DatChief   
20 minutes ago, Shiune said:

So first of all SIN is really not an easy class to play at max potential in PvP. 

 

2nd: Ryuki, the top assassin on EU, is always deranking if he's too high so the current number 1 SIN on EU is not the best SIN on EU. 

 

3rd: The latest patch buffed Summoners and BMs extremely good which makes those classes a bigger pain in the azz as they were before anyway (though SIN got buffed aswell). 

 

The class assassin itself is still a top PvP class but there are only a very few people which can actually play the class close to perfect and therefore there aren't something many high SINs in the leader board. 

Your first point, i believe SIN around the 1.9k - 2k rating knows exactly what they are doing and when they are going to do it. I don't think they are just gonna suddenly throw out a random skill and force it to go on cd which opens a gap for your opponent to counter it and burst you down. So i don't think difficulty is the actual issue to their potential. Especially when you know what your doing and played the class long enough to know when to do.

 

To your second point, I don't get why just cause he is too high in the rankings, he decides NOPE! I'm too high, time to de-rank. That actually makes no sense to me what so ever. Its like you can be the best but you choose not to. You can live in a big house but you choose not to, you can drive the most fancy car but you choose not to. I mean, isn't that the whole purpose? Strive to be the best? Just cause he is too high (not stated at all), he de-ranks which makes everyone else that is stated black and white on paper (ie. on the ranking charts) not as good as him? That's a bit bizarre if you ask me. I'm not saying I don't believe you, for all i know you prob know 100x more than me but the whole idea behind it just doesn't make sense as to why someone would do that?

 

To your Third point, yeah, i heard a lot about that. From what i've read, people are complaining about it. Other classes buff seems to of given them a big boost whereas Sins got bomb boost or something along those lines (not too sure, haven't really read the notes)? Even so, the buff i heard for Sins is good but not amazing in comparison to what Sum and BM got.

 

To your final point, If its really that hard to play then i guess the " Risk to Reward " factor is not worth the amount of precision and effort you are required in order to play the class at a decent level? I don't believe a game maker will make a class that is impossible to be good at. No MMO i've came across has ever done that cause the would just be stupid. Well, i don't mean impossible to be good at but you get what i mean. 

Edited by DatChief

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Shiune   
25 minutes ago, DatChief said:

Your first point, i believe SIN around the 1.9k - 2k rating knows exactly what they are doing and when they are going to do it. I don't think they are just gonna suddenly throw out a random skill and force it to go on cd which opens a gap for your opponent to counter it and burst you down. So i don't think difficulty is the actual issue to their potential. Especially when you know what your doing and played the class long enough to know when to do.

 

To your second point, I don't get why just cause he is too high in the rankings, he decides NOPE! I'm too high, time to de-rank. That actually makes no sense to me what so ever. Its like you can be the best but you choose not to. You can live in a big house but you choose not to, you can drive the most fancy car but you choose not to. I mean, isn't that the whole purpose? Strive to be the best? Just cause he is too high (not stated at all), he de-ranks which makes everyone else that is stated black and white on paper (ie. on the ranking charts) not as good as him? That's a bit bizarre if you ask me. I'm not saying I don't believe you, for all i know you prob know 100x more than me but the whole idea behind it just doesn't make sense as to why someone would do that?

 

To your Third point, yeah, i heard a lot about that. From what i've read, people are complaining about it. Other classes buff seems to of given them a big boost whereas Sins got bomb boost or something along those lines (not too sure, haven't really read the notes)? Even so, the buff i heard for Sins is good but not amazing in comparison to what Sum and BM got.

 

To your final point, If its really that hard to play then i guess the " Risk to Reward " factor is not worth the amount of precision and effort you are required in order to play the class at a decent level? I don't believe a game maker will make a class that is impossible to be good at. No MMO i've came across has ever done that cause the would just be stupid. Well, i don't mean impossible to be good at but you get what i mean. 

I'm just gonna refer to my second point again:

 

Point of deranking is that you can actually play arena instead of queueing for hours to get an opponent because you are to high and won't get matched since nobody queues on diamond atm.

 

Another point is farming zen beans but I know for a fact that ryuki is deranking because he wants to play and not because he needs zen beans (3vs3 is more effective anyway). 

 

And lastly he will stop deranking by the end of the season so he will rank up to the top by the end to get the max rewards. 

 

Sounds logical right? 

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DatChief   
5 minutes ago, Shiune said:

I'm just gonna refer to my second point again:

 

Point of deranking is that you can actually play arena instead of queueing for hours to get an opponent because you are to high and won't get matched since nobody queues on diamond atm.

 

Another point is farming zen beans but I know for a fact that ryuki is deranking because he wants to play and not because he needs zen beans (3vs3 is more effective anyway). 

 

And lastly he will stop deranking by the end of the season so he will rank up to the top by the end to get the max rewards. 

 

Sounds logical right? 

Ahhh i see, yeah it surely does make sense. I just thought you mean he solely decided not to do it or something like that. Didn't think of the farming / matching sense. Makes sense now.

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Avalyn   

First off, you guys are overthinking things. It's really quite simple. At that kind of rating the queue is just terrible. You could queue for 20 minutes sometimes and not get anyone. Even if you do get a queue it's just the same person over and over. It's not that they don't have the ability to make it into top 5, it's that they simply don't have the time nor the patience to spend queuing all day. Most of these people would rather play alts or borrow other people's accounts to play pvp and have fast queues.

 

Second, sin is a complex class, but an easy one. Complexity and difficulty are two entirely different things and one does not imply the other.

Edited by Avalyn

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DatChief   
28 minutes ago, Avalyn said:

First off, you guys are overthinking things. It's really quite simple. At that kind of rating the queue is just terrible. You could queue for 20 minutes sometimes and not get anyone. Even if you do get a queue it's just the same person over and over. It's not that they don't have the ability to make it into top 5, it's that they simply don't have the time nor the patience to spend queuing all day. Most of these people would rather play alts or borrow other people's accounts to play pvp and have fast queues.

 

Second, sin is a complex class, but an easy one. Complexity and difficulty are two entirely different things and one does not imply the other.

So your saying Sin is complex cause they have like multiple variables / ways to open up depending on the type of situation they are in whereas most classes only have 1? And its difficult cause some people don't know which variable to pick or what? Like, what exactly makes them such a difficult class that everyone is portraying them to be? I just simply don't get it. Is it difficult because its hard to adapt to what mechanics / tools other classes have in comparison to Sin or what? As you kindly stated, complexity and difficulty are two entirely different things but 8/10 people doesn't seem to see the difference when it comes to Sins. To be fair, if something is complex it usually means its more difficult, that's why its complex. I know i just said that back to front but in all seriousness, that is basically the true so please enlighten me.

Edited by DatChief

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Talinoth   

Having played a little bit of Assassin myself, I can confidently tell you that playing with any real level of competence requires 100ms ping or lower.

Fighting Blade Dancers/Summoners/highly skilled Force Masters/Destroyers can be terribly difficult and require quite a bit of brainpower.

 

Yeah, their other matchups are pretty easy for the most part but damn is it hard to beat a good Blade Dancer.

 

The problem is that while Assassin absolutely excels at rolling over weak/high-ping players/KFMs, it's very easy to have a bad time against people who know the matchup. Fighting classes like Blade Dancer or Destro can also be extremely difficult, because of an inability to land most cc, and the fact that both classes have ways of easily knocking Assassins out of stealth. Both classes also do massive damage when they land their combos.

 

As for fighting Force Masters, some are just insanely good and won't let you land a single Tab switch or Throwing Dagger (X). Skilled Force Masters will also be extremely wary about attacking you - they'll mix up their attack pattern in a way that makes it hard to use Decoy to get back into stealth. Because they have two escapes, and Divine Veil + Frost Sheath + Frost Armor buy them a lot of time, you will find it very difficult to land a long combo against a good one.

Impact only has a 0.5/1 sec cd (depending on spec) and is a 2x10 area effect ability that costs no focus. Impact is excellent at knocking assassins out of stealth, as well as countering your Lightning Sweep/Tab switch (you'll need to get close and frisky with Spinal Tap to start a combo).

 

Against strong players in general, you often have to take Escape Lotus on your V key instead of blue buff - after all, if you waste Tab escape even once and then get caught, you will die like an idiot unless you have Lotus. Which sucks, because the huge 10 second damage buff and 15 second stealth on blue buff is a lot of fun and very easy to get used to.

 

-

 

Assassin is very strong, but it's hardest matchups are also very strong right now and it requires a lot of brainpower and skill to use against strong players.

 

Edited by Talinoth

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DatChief   
18 minutes ago, Talinoth said:

Having played a little bit of Assassin myself, I can confidently tell you that playing with any real level of competence requires 100ms ping or lower.

Fighting Blade Dancers/Summoners/highly skilled Force Masters/Destroyers can be terribly difficult and require quite a bit of brainpower.

 

Yeah, their other matchups are pretty easy for the most part but damn is it hard to beat a good Blade Dancer.

 

The problem is that while Assassin absolutely excels at rolling over weak/high-ping players/KFMs, it's very easy to have a bad time against people who know the matchup. Fighting classes like Blade Dancer or Destro can also be extremely difficult, because of an inability to land most cc, and the fact that both classes have ways of easily knocking Assassins out of stealth. Both classes also do massive damage when they land their combos.

 

As for fighting Force Masters, some are just insanely good and won't let you land a single Tab switch or Throwing Dagger (X). Skilled Force Masters will also be extremely wary about attacking you - they'll mix up their attack pattern in a way that makes it hard to use Decoy to get back into stealth. Because they have two escapes, and Divine Veil + Frost Sheath + Frost Armor buy them a lot of time, you will find it very difficult to land a long combo against a good one.

Impact only has a 0.5/1 sec cd (depending on spec) and is a 2x10 area effect ability that costs no focus. Impact is excellent at knocking assassins out of stealth, as well as countering your Lightning Sweep/Tab switch (you'll need to get close and frisky with Spinal Tap to start a combo).

 

-

 

Assassin is very strong, but it's hardest matchups are also very strong right now and it requires a lot of brainpower and skill to use against strong players.

 

That is exactly what i stated in the earlier posts about Sin's. The " Risk to Reward " factor is not worth the amount of precision and effort you are required in order to play the class at a decent level? Especially since you basically stated, their tools are not as good / weaker than other classes and can easily be countered against more experienced players. Taking in what you said, even if they were to re balance out other classes and damage of certain skills etc. Sin's will still have a hard time against them bottom line since their tools and mechanics are simply weaker than other classes and just the experience of the player in general too right? 

Edited by DatChief

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Talinoth   

Umm, no not quite.

 

Fact is Assassins at a baseline level are actually really strong. Huge range of utility abilities, their unpredictability, large number of ways to open a match and quite nasty damage + their slipperiness makes them a powerful pick against 90% of the playerbase. Their stealth gives them a first strike advantage in almost all situations, and your enemies have to survive your gimmicks first before you have to survive theirs.

 

As I said, it's very skilled players on a couple of classes that make a sin's life hard. Meanwhile, in matchups of even skill they roll over Blade Masters, Warlocks and Soul Fighters. Most Force Masters find it to be a very difficult matchup. Even a bad Assassin can also play a very mean-spirited "run the clock" kind of match where they poke the enemy player, run away, then laugh uproariously when the 3 minute timer has expired and they win on damage - this is highly effective against otherwise dangerous classes like Force Master, Blade Dancer, and Destroyer.

 

Finally, spare your thoughts for poor Kung Fu Masters. Their matchup against sins is so legendarily awful it's often referred to as the worst in the game. Top KFMs in Korea queue up against Assassins, see the matchup, and say "*cricket* this, I'm afking".

 

It's only against great players, who have memorised the cooldowns of your abilities to the second, with great reflexes and the ability to read the matchup like a game of chess - it's only against them that the tables turn and you're the one on the back foot.

Summoners are a very hard matchup for you at first, but it becomes much easier when you have HM Decoy - to the point of it becoming one of your easier matchups.

 

As for Blade Dancers... yeah, that sucks, but hey, every class has to have some form of kryptonite right?

Edited by Talinoth

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DatChief   
16 minutes ago, Talinoth said:

Summoners are a very hard matchup for you at first, but it becomes much easier when you have HM Decoy - to the point of it becoming one of your easier matchups.

 

Are they really that hard? I've seen Sin v Sum videos and literally Sin just 2 shots the cat, go back stealth and literally destroy the Sum and all the Sum can do is run around trying to get the Sin off them.

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RavTH   

cuz eu has too many blue flower+rmb+f sins that wont get to 1700+ cause at 1700+ decent players will wipe them out.
Also many good sins left bns cause of connection problem and possibly the dislikes in updates?...
Some are lazy to rank up and focused on upgreading gear and such.

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houki111   

First of all you need that HM decoy which is not easy to get...

 

And lets not forget that destroyers and summs are top tier because of bots and cheats that are here present, and dont give me crap that they not existing or the top 5 are not the bots because there is a high chance that they are or using them. Btw i dont know if brackets are reset or not but if not lets not forget that summoners used grounded bug for a lot fo time which made them a lot of easy wins. Destroyers however are mostly bots that spin to you when you are invisible and beat the crap out of you because you cant cc them aka not do combo. Maybe after you get all hm skills and be hm 11 and have crit defense with SS that provide good stats then you can be in top 10 but not much higher due to issue that ncsoft simply does not give a damn which is cheating or botting;

 

Sins are not that hard in area in my opinion because you have plently of cc and some escapes only thing is luckluster it is their dmg kinda :P

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Talinoth   

Your soul shields and other equipment have no effect on arena pvp at all.

 

Only difference you can make is your skill choices - higher HM level and more HM skills unlocked will give you a decisive advantage of course - but you can't get crit defense, extra AP, extra crit rate etc in Arena.

 

As for Whirlwind Valley, that's another animal entirely.

 

Assassins are so effective in 6v6 to the point of making me sick to the stomach.

 

Everytime my buddy Ice Bombs two guys to take the point with no resistance, or holds off 4 people at once by himself because enemy team keeps hitting into Decoy and he has 86k hp + 2000 crit def... It's utterly repulsive.

Edited by Talinoth

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Avalyn   

Well look at assassin. Its complexity involves most of their CC's being in stealth stance or requiring some sort of condition ie. poison etc. They have to figure out how to CC, exit stealth and do damage, apply poisons, enter stealth and CC, and so on. However, while this is a fairly complex process, all of this involves extremely short cooldowns. Basically once you figure out how to do all this, you do the same thing over and over. Which is why assassin is the infamous "infinite combo" class. With all the sin guides out there that teach you how to pull all this off, all the work that makes up the complexity of assassin is pretty much already done for you and the rest is just a matter of repeated practice and muscle memory. I don't think most sins these days even understand half the logic behind what they are doing because you can just completely hop over the complexity and blindly memorize combos as a sin. The combination of being able to use a single pre-canned rotation over and over and the stall ability of stealth means that sin is actually quite a slow-paced class and doesn't demand much from the player. 

 

In fact, I would say that 99% of the difficulty of sin lies in being able to initiate this combo on their opponent. People have mentioned that destroyer and summoner are hard for sin. Well the reason is that destroyer has a ridiculous amount of ways to prevent a sin's initiation along with 2 escapes, and summoner has a ridiculous amount of ways to screw up the sin's combo. Because most sins are just blindly regurgitating a combo they memorized, sin vs summoner actually separates the good sins from the bad because the good sins are able to think of ways to continue on when the summ disrupts them.

 

Now I'm sure there will be a few angry assassin mains who will say something along the lines of their class involves being able to read the opponent's attacks and various other intricacies like dodging tab escapes and whatnot. Well, I hate to break it to you but every class has to do this in PvP. Those are things that contribute to the difficulty/complexity of Blade & Soul's general PvP, not your class.

Edited by Avalyn

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DatChief   

So are you's saying Sum & Des > Sin until Sin gets HM skills but even then, it just makes the match up easier but still difficult for Sin. I'm talking as if both player's skill base is on equal level and just solely looking class against class.

Edited by DatChief

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houki111   
9 minutes ago, Avalyn said:

Well look at assassin. Its complexity involves most of their CC's being in stealth stance or requiring some sort of condition ie. poison etc. They have to figure out how to CC, exit stealth and do damage, apply poisons, enter stealth and CC, and so on. However, while this is a fairly complex process, all of this involves extremely short cooldowns. Basically once you figure out how to do all this, you do the same thing over and over. Which is why assassin is the infamous "infinite combo" class. With all the sin guides out there that teach you how to pull all this off, all the work that makes up the complexity of assassin is pretty much already done for you and the rest is just a matter of repeated practice and muscle memory. I don't think most sins these days even understand half the logic behind what they are doing because you can just completely hop over the complexity and blindly memorize combos as a sin. The combination of being able to use a single pre-canned rotation over and over and the stall ability of stealth means that sin is actually quite a slow-paced class and doesn't demand much from the player. 

 

Now I'm sure there will be a few angry assassin mains who will say something along the lines of their class involves being able to read the opponent's attacks and various other intricacies like dodging tab escapes and whatnot. Well, I hate to break it to you but every class has to do this in PvP. Those are things that contribute to the difficulty/complexity of Blade & Soul's general PvP, not your class.

yea ofc we will blindly to our combo on blade dancer while he spams tab or destro while he spins or fm while he is frozen or bm while he block 24/7 or while summoner when he sees us and keeps his cat on us or soulfighter that can not be CC for most fight yea your argument is so valid here but please correct if i am wrong but if i can not stun ppl how come i can perform my combo which requires stun to start? AND how come the sins are low class when they require more knowlegde of opponent than destro that spins vs cc calss and jumps when the class uses all of his initial cards ? how come that you can not get up vs good bm that knocks you down and kills you in 1 combo when you cant do a shit (which combo is pretty easy? more than sins combo :) ) yea i want to hear your explanation on that

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Avalyn   

I already said to stop pointing at things that every class has to do. Every class has to get an opener on their opponent somehow, sin isn't the only one. 

 

As a sin, you have stealth, tab escape, AND flower escape. If you somehow manage to blow both your escapes only a few seconds apart from each other and didn't stall time with stealth for your escape CD's, that is 100% your fault that you got combo'ed. Not many classes are as forgiving as sin.

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houki111   
15 minutes ago, Avalyn said:

I already said to stop pointing at things that every class has to do. Every class has to get an opener on their opponent somehow, sin isn't the only one. 

 

As a sin, you have stealth, tab escape, AND flower escape. If you somehow manage to blow both your escapes only a few seconds apart from each other and didn't stall time with stealth for your escape CD's, that is 100% your fault that you got combo'ed. Not many classes are as forgiving as sin.

forgiving? where? summs are more forgiving, bms are more forgiving, heck fms are more forgiving then sin. like you get stun and your escape is f or tab (because flower is a critical rescue for critical moments in my opinion) if you use tab once and get caught again you wont have much of excape while fm can get out from 4 stuns and froze himself 2 times ( i even saw fms froze themselfs in airborn combo) summs have stealth too and can avoid stuns. if we dont renew our stealth (which requires either counter from decoy or hit enemy) we are over in most ways. AND you said not to point to the enemy countermeasures but lemme tell you, when destro can not be cc and have high burst (frenzy plus some skill gets like half of my hp lol) and they still have escape from stun just how sin is supposed to fight ? (and dont tell me to wait in hide cuz the destroyers can spin for most time and small window still is blocked by their stun escape). Bms have 24 block and most  iframes skills in game (they can do infinite Q while in draw stance), KFM and BD with HM  tab has a way to get sin from stealth with ease and get crap out of us in your eyes is something more complex? Please get your shit right before posting that sins are mindless muscle memory things because i just proved most of it is wrong.

 

 

P.S btw in some areanas you can see sin in stealth when he moves if you focus enough so yea 

Edited by houki111

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Avalyn   

The fact that you have trouble with BM and don't know how to CC destroyer tells me all I need to know

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houki111   
7 minutes ago, Avalyn said:

The fact that you have trouble with BM and don't know how to CC destroyer tells me all I need to know

yea like everybody now have trouble with bms? and destro is hard to cc when he spins so yea tells me all i need know about your current game knowlegde more than you think off

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