Viable Solution to fix 6v6?

[JatoJato]

13 hours ago, Kounat said:

1 - Something like that, but it's gonna be monitored or we'll end up with our current 3v3 abuse where the top 30 or so are swapping wins. And don't give me that, Elo is luck of the draw too, I had a friend who ended up going against the same guy 20 times in a row and got diamond based off that - and the guy was actually a real player. I know a friend of mine who's plat and can't fight scummoners to save his life and would get rekt by a silver one, as long as he doesn't run into any, he's fine - etc.

2 - Wrong, if it has a ranking system there's supposed to be some competitive aspect to it and if you can buy some advantage then it's not competitive. You earn a trophy, you don't buy one, learn the difference. CDef is for open world faction wars, but OWPvp kinda died a few years ago for this game, so nothing really anymore.

3 - Either you're lying or you never went against an all Scummoner team.

1 - of course it has to be monitored. Wintrading has to be prevented as well as ELO-exploiting. If you are dependend on others there is always "luck" involved because failure is not only your own responsibility at that point. The problem that you described had nothing to do with luck - its simply the result of too little players that play the particular pvp mode - if this is the case a elo-based matching is not possible. Not being able to play against a particular class is on a total different view of "luck" - thats a personal shortcomming because in general the game should be fair and balanced between every class (not saying that it is atm but it should be).

 

2 - You could also see it the way that you simply have to invest something. It is like in real sports - for example competitive skiing. The guys with the better wax have and advantage - but noone says you can buy you victory there. Fact is everyone would be able to get a NaksunSS + 2k Cdeff and 2k cdeff are much more relevant than 100 ap more due to excessive paying. Also equipment can be a bit equalized if you can play good. On EU you can see this for example at the assa (edited). To my knowledge he is no exploiter but a pvp-player and he is in the same region as others that have more gear (and/or exploit).

 

3 - I am not lying. And in fact i never played against 6 sums. I think the most sums i ever played against were 4 and the most sums in one single game were 8 (but 4 on both sides).

 

You are neglecting the problem. The ppl that want to make their daylies are not the one that are dc-ing (beacause for the daily you only have to win 1 match -> dc is neither win nor loss). The problem is the exploiting.

[FrozenB]

The simple solution to the "leave exploit" is to make the leavers lose the rank after they leave the game COMPLETELY.

 

The way to distinguish the real disconnected players and the exploit players is by following:

- the players come back to match after disconnection (you have a choice to accept/decline the party after you logged back in), then the players don't lose the rank and continue to battle in the match.

- the players declines to join back the party, then they are considered to lose the match and the rank as well. In addition, they have a 10-15 minute penalty that they can't join another bg match.

- the players come back online, but the match was over already. They are considered to lose the match and the rank as well, but no bg penalty.

 

"Also, please remove the weapon's durability loss when you are dead in battleground!!!" - I die a lot in battle ground and so does other people. It is getting ridiculous that I have to repair my weapon once every 7-8 matches.

 

 

 

This "leave exploit" is real and lame. There was 1 match I had yesterday. Even before the match started, one of my teammates said "omg, the other side all have 650+ AP with 1.5+ critical def." Then, he left immediately. After that, another 2 players left. After the match started for 30 seconds, 1 more player left. In the end, 1 minute of the match my team was down to 2 players left. I know they were real leavers/exploiters because they logged back in and declined to join the party (You see that they got removed from the party very fast). Usually, I also leave party when there are more than 2 players left the part in very early match because the bg points are dependent on your contribution to the match. I don't care about losing, but in 4vs6 match, there was no way to fight or capture anything. In the end, I just receive like 0-20 points. In this case, I would rather leave the match and start a new one to save time and earn more points. If it is close to the end of the game, I would stay though.

[OniOfTheSword]

11 hours ago, Grimoir said:

After the recent changes to 6v6 its a lot more alive and fun which is a good thing, you should have somewhere to use your gear other than PVe and SSP.

The issue here is no penalty. All they need to do is penalize the players that DC / LEave the match. Let them loose 100 ranking points each time and issue will dissapear.

Except, that would penalize people who don't dc on purpose. I've DC'ed once during a match, and been able to rejoin and win. I've also crashed as soon as I found a match, when I queued up with a clan mate. In this instance, the game started off as 5v6. If there were penalties for this, I'd lose points for no fault of mine.

 

I'd say, apply the penalty for only those who are still offline when the match actually ends. Yes, this would be unfortunate for those who dc towards the end, but it would atleast prevent people from dc'ing on purpose.

 

Edit: Didn't read @FrozenB's reply before posting this. He/She summed it up quite well.

 

[LilMsQT]

On Monday, September 05, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Tubby said:

Seeing how a lot of top players are using exploits such as DCing losing matchs to up their rank in 6v6 maybe this season should have the rewards taken away?  I know some have worked hard and put in time and effort to up their rank into the top 100 but overall the majority of 6v6 is getting worse and worse and maybe it is because of the reward system.  Maybe this season give less incentive to be high rank and more just to actually try to win and not have a fail safe if you go down 100 points or so.

This is an exploit and its cheating, just like the exploit when ppl were ss'ing thru doors to avoid parts of the fight in a dungeon. So till they fix it we just record the cheaters and send in the ticket reporting them,  right? They banned abusers for the last exploit...let them sort it out and punish accordingly.

[Exonesia]

15 hours ago, azraelkun said:

Yup u leave or u dc=loose 

Easy fix i think.

 

13 hours ago, United17 said:

Umm ya make DCing a loss seems pretty simple right, well not here at NCsoft.

these 2 ppl have the solution right there, one that would make dc'ing/bailing punishing for those trying to avoid deranking:

 

if they bail and their team still wins, they still lose their points because they dc'ed and bailed

if they bail and their team lost, they lose their points because they dc'ed and bailed

 

since bailing makes them lose points anyway, if they don't an automatic decrease in their points, might as well play out the round

[Grimoir]

11 hours ago, OniOfTheSword said:

Except, that would penalize people who don't dc on purpose. I've DC'ed once during a match, and been able to rejoin and win. I've also crashed as soon as I found a match, when I queued up with a clan mate. In this instance, the game started off as 5v6. If there were penalties for this, I'd lose points for no fault of mine.

 

I'd say, apply the penalty for only those who are still offline when the match actually ends. Yes, this would be unfortunate for those who dc towards the end, but it would atleast prevent people from dc'ing on purpose.

 

Edit: Didn't read @FrozenB's reply before posting this. He/She summed it up quite well.

 

I know it would penalize those also who dont DC on purpose but sadly there is no way of telling whether it was purpose or not, hence sadly we have to go by the famous quote here "one for all and all for one". I dc myself a few times too, given i manage to log in before i get kicked and such, but i would also loose points due to the penalty, but if this helps the other players i really dont mind, but i hate when people abuse something for their benefit.

 

Bottom line NC isnt to blame here, its the players themselves.

[United17]

32 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

Bottom line NC isnt to blame here, its the players themselves.

LOL, the whitest of white knights! Ya players fault that a huge exploitable bug is not only there but they also seem to not care it's there. In any other game I've played with competitive PvP this would be a hotfix issue probably with a hotfix patch within a day or two of it being identified especially when it affects RANKED play. Here at NCsoft willing to bet it'll be a month IF it's fixed at all.

 

Combat bug? Players fault, you shouldn't have started combating things.

Enemy resetting when rooted or froze? Players fault, you shouldn't have been using roots or freezes.

Cannot "Y" key to disassemble multiple items? Players fault you shouldn't have been trying to disassemble that many....... 

[Grimoir]

21 minutes ago, United17 said:

LOL, the whitest of white knights! Ya players fault that a huge exploitable bug is not only there but they also seem to not care it's there. In any other game I've played with competitive PvP this would be a hotfix issue probably with a hotfix patch within a day or two of it being identified especially when it affects RANKED play. Here at NCsoft willing to bet it'll be a month IF it's fixed at all.

 

Combat bug? Players fault, you shouldn't have started combating things.

Enemy resetting when rooted or froze? Players fault, you shouldn't have been using roots or freezes.

Cannot "Y" key to disassemble multiple items? Players fault you shouldn't have been trying to disassemble that many....... 

I aint a white knight, but its not NC's fault players decide to abuse something. They didnt implement a penalty system for 6v6, thats not a bug, that was their choice, the fact that players abuse that is not their fault simple.

 

you should stop treating the community like they are all innocent angels, cause they arent. And the other examples you are giving are actual bugs / quality of life features which arent there, comparing these to the fact that players deliberately choose to abuse something is not right.

and the fact something is in other games, doesnt mean anything because this is a different game, different puyblisher, they do not need to do everything the same as all other games.

[Morgwais]

And we are back in the circle. Devs create something -> most ppl play and enjoy it -> some stupid people find bugs/abuses on that thing and use them to get on top of the majority 
-> the majority goes really vocal on it -> devs do some changes to prevent the idiots from exploiting the system -> those changes also hurt the majority that are playing legit.

Just make it so you lose the points if you leave or disconnect. It may be unfortunate for those that simply had a random dc during the match but , what can you do.

Also it would be awsome if it could track those that force dc out of the match and give them a debuff where they can't enter any arena for the next 2-3 hours.

[Yarnz]

garbage game, unbalanced match making. lag makes melee characters especially sins to be unable to hit anything unless cc'ed or live next to server

[Shîro]

Base reward of battle points should be increased.. 250 for win and 0-like 60 for lose is ROFL. You need 32 tokens for RMB skill one cost 5000 that is 160k with avg. gain 160 points from 1:1 win/lose, that is 1k games.... I mean...1k games for just skill that cost 250g which can be made in 5-10 days of dailys (just daily not material selling) That is just f* up.

It should be at least 500 for win and at least 150-250 for lose.
With current system you need 5 wins for 2-3 moonstone, 5 wins may take you 1-2 hours that is 4 finished faction minings which can give you even more moonstones.

[JatoJato]

4 hours ago, Grimoir said:

I aint a white knight, but its not NC's fault players decide to abuse something. They didnt implement a penalty system for 6v6, thats not a bug, that was their choice, the fact that players abuse that is not their fault simple.

 

you should stop treating the community like they are all innocent angels, cause they arent. And the other examples you are giving are actual bugs / quality of life features which arent there, comparing these to the fact that players deliberately choose to abuse something is not right.

and the fact something is in other games, doesnt mean anything because this is a different game, different puyblisher, they do not need to do everything the same as all other games.

Did you develop the game? If not, you can not say that it is not a bug. You might be right the the opposite could also be true - but that makes your side not automatically the right one.

 

Furthermore there are some other points:

a) No PvP-Mode in the game allows disconnecting in order to prevent elo loss (-> indicates that it might be a bug)

b) ELO in WWV is a new implementation also it is located in the dungeon lobby where it is not necessary to penalize a disconnect because players can simply vote-kick you if you are offline and you get neither the quest nor the loot (-> indicates that it might be overlooked because the code can be developped by copy pasterino)

c) As the community sees it ELO-Exploiting is toxic (indicates that it might not be intended because common sense says that is not ok)

d) ELO means that ppl with equal skill level  can be matched against each other (in this special case of course money  and/or ingame gold can subsitute some of the skill that would be needed - but that is another story) - so ELO-Exploiting leads to wrong ELO which as a result leads to a matchmaking that does not work the way it is intended (-> indicates that it is not wanted to elo-exploit because the matchmaking itself could be made rdm if its not intended with elo but it is not rdm)

 

Now you have some arguments against it - i have none that would support the ELO-Exploit - mb you can bring some light into it.

[Grimoir]

8 minutes ago, JatoJato said:

Did you develop the game? If not, you can not say that it is not a bug. You might be right the the opposite could also be true - but that makes your side not automatically the right one.

 

Furthermore there are some other points:

a) No PvP-Mode in the game allows disconnecting in order to prevent elo loss (-> indicates that it might be a bug)

b) ELO in WWV is a new implementation also it is located in the dungeon lobby where it is not necessary to penalize a disconnect because players can simply vote-kick you if you are offline and you get neither the quest nor the loot (-> indicates that it might be overlooked because the code can be developped by copy pasterino)

c) As the community sees it ELO-Exploiting is toxic (indicates that it might not be intended because common sense says that is not ok)

d) ELO means that ppl with equal skill level  can be matched against each other (in this special case of course money  and/or ingame gold can subsitute some of the skill that would be needed - but that is another story) - so ELO-Exploiting leads to wrong ELO which as a result leads to a matchmaking that does not work the way it is intended (-> indicates that it is not wanted to elo-exploit because the matchmaking itself could be made rdm if its not intended with elo but it is not rdm)

 

Now you have some arguments against it - i have none that would support the ELO-Exploit - mb you can bring some light into it.

The Fact that players intentionally DC to prevent the loss of points is an exploit (i never said it wasnt) however, the fact that there is no penalty for doing such is not a bug / exploit as its a feature that was never there to begin with.

(also a player already posted a reply from Support where they clearly state it is an exploit if you intentionally dc to prevent ranking loss, thus eligible for reporting and punishment)

 

The issue isnt if you get DC'ed in the lobby, the issue is when you dc before the match ends on the battlefield to prevent the loss of points. And ofc it is not ok, it is completely unfair and is being abused / exploited for personal gain so the community has every right to be angry about it.

 

And the matchmaking does work they way it should, the problem is it has no real criteria for matching people (it doesnt check AP, ranking, stats etc...) which can result in uneven battles. Also at no point can gear substitute skill in the 6v6. I killed a player with 800 AP (while i had 692) because he was completely bad in pvp.

So for the matchmaking, how do you match up players with equal skill? you cant base it on AP / stats. You could base it on the ranking but then you have the exploit....

 

Honestly i hope they take the reported players and reset their ranking back to default before the season ends.

[JatoJato]

21 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

The Fact that players intentionally DC to prevent the loss of points is an exploit (i never said it wasnt) however, the fact that there is no penalty for doing such is not a bug / exploit as its a feature that was never there to begin with.

(also a player already posted a reply from Support where they clearly state it is an exploit if you intentionally dc to prevent ranking loss, thus eligible for reporting and punishment)

 

The issue isnt if you get DC'ed in the lobby, the issue is when you dc before the match ends on the battlefield to prevent the loss of points. And ofc it is not ok, it is completely unfair and is being abused / exploited for personal gain so the community has every right to be angry about it.

 

And the matchmaking does work they way it should, the problem is it has no real criteria for matching people (it doesnt check AP, ranking, stats etc...) which can result in uneven battles. Also at no point can gear substitute skill in the 6v6. I killed a player with 800 AP (while i had 692) because he was completely bad in pvp.

So for the matchmaking, how do you match up players with equal skill? you cant base it on AP / stats. You could base it on the ranking but then you have the exploit....

 

Honestly i hope they take the reported players and reset their ranking back to default before the season ends.

Ok i dont get your first point. If dc-ing to not lose elo is an exploit. How can't it be a bug that there is no penalty (which would be the loss of ELO - i do not mean an extra penalty like you get banned or so - altough imho ppl that exploited would deserve that - but because i assume there are too many they playerbase would be shrinked harshly if such a penalty would exist).

Yeah i read the support message in original - and i hope they do it that way. But problem is - ncsoft missed the timing to get this out as an official statement - also there is the interesting pic from the livestream.

 

On the second thing we agree.

 

Yeah you might be true - but you also might be wrong. I mean how do you determine if there is no criteria. Because for example i was very rarely matched against platin but often with silver (while i am gold). So i think this might be because of the fact that i was more closely to silver (or they to gold) than i was to platin (or they to gold). So i would say this indicates that elo is the criteria. And this would also indicate that the matchmaking can not work properly if the elo can not be correct determined (at least for some of the players).

Yeah we can search for many examples for the one or the other side if gear substitutes skill. But anyhow this would mb be a interesting topic if someone does some game-psychology related study or so. However fact is -> 0 Critdeff + pvp-skill is way worse than +2k Critdeff and medicore pvp-skill so gear substitutes skill - to what degree is another story - also i only brought up the point because i want to bring it to the attention of the whole playerbase that they should at least invest in some pvp-ss and Critdeff. 

In an ELO-System -> high ELO equals high Skill, Low ELO equals low Skill - ergo 1300 (which i think is the minimum) equals no skill at all. If elo is determined perfectly correct -> you only have to match ppl with the same elo or elo-range against each other (of course there might be some problems as well - for example players deranking on purpose, players start late in the season, different classes that are easier to play, ... - but at least the matchmaking would be better - imho).

 

I honestly hope they reset the elo in todays maintenance.

[Grimoir]

10 minutes ago, JatoJato said:

Ok i dont get your first point. If dc-ing to not lose elo is an exploit. How can't it be a bug that there is no penalty (which would be the loss of ELO - i do not mean an extra penalty like you get banned or so - altough imho ppl that exploited would deserve that - but because i assume there are too many they playerbase would be shrinked harshly if such a penalty would exist).

 

Well...what to me personally is a bug is: you add a feature / change a feature in the game which in result does not work as intended. Since there was no penalty ever in the 6v6 you cant really call it a bug...

 

But yeah, regardless, they should punish the ones abusing it and fix it.

[JatoJato]

4 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

Well...what to me personally is a bug is: you add a feature / change a feature in the game which in result does not work as intended. Since there was no penalty ever in the 6v6 you cant really call it a bug...

 

But yeah, regardless, they should punish the ones abusing it and fix it.

We agree on the final outcome :-).

 

And in fact also on the first statement. There was no penalty - but there was no ELO either ^^ - that's why it is a bug for me - only as a personal side notice ;-).

[FrozenB]

If they don't do anything about the exploits, the matches will be getting worse because the matching system is based on players' ranking. As more and more fake gold/platinum players joining wwv bg, the high rank matches will be screwed up because as soon as the players see that their teammates had no critical def with only 500 AP (but in high gold/platinum rank), they will just leave the match in order to save time and rank. This is what some people claim to be legit leave after checking their teammates stats.

 

Some people said that the matching system is bad in B&S. I wonder what would they suggest for the new matching system? Based on AP? (people can switch weapon and accessory in the battleground) Based on level? (People in HM5 can have AP 700 while others people in HM 11 can have AP 550). I can't think of any ways better than using the rank system. Any idea out there?