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Is FM broke for PvP?


Takku

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Comparing how many people there are at gold or higher for each class, FM and Warlock seem to be by far the weakest 1v1 classes now for some reason. Why is that? Or is it just me doing something wrong? Tower of Infinity is the same, the best FM can clear Floor 51 with maxed Legendary, while most other classes have lots of people way past that. As for myself, I have 649 AP and my record for ToI is Floor 33 which means I start at Floor 21. When I get a Summoner or Destroyer it's pretty much impossible to even win the first round despite using a Frost build and even my Crit Defense set, and that's just stupid considering there's a daily to clear 5 rounds while you only get 2 tickets each day.

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FM may not be worse than other classes in pvp but harder. There are thousands of skills which can negate almost all skills a fm has for some time. FM has no real good kd like other classes and also no easy airbind. Stun is only possible with one skill on long cd and while the Opponent is frozen. Problem: Every class can escape the frozen state. Spin classes can even get rid of it without any cd. Then we have the block classes who can block most skills. As fm it's absolutely important to waste the cd of the opponent and not to make big fails.

 

In tower the enemies are playing very good. There are ways to "bug" some classes (look on YouTube for that) so it becomes easier. FM is one of the hardest classes in tower, no doubt.

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If you use your skill in the right way and right order you can be in tower very successfull. Use air combos as often as you can. The only challenge is the bob class summoner in the tower ofc. Google jaesung (hope spelled it right). 

He shows very good pvp. FM can be very strong in 1vs1 but only if you know how to. 

You need to know also how and when to use your i-frames. The challenge always will be in tower to dps the enemy. 

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Yes FM is broked, ultra over power with high damage and defensive skill.

2 iframe "Q and E"

1 iframe "SS" (break stun)

1 Ice shield (break everything)

1 Tab SHield with 15% recover HP (break everything)

and frezze freze 

 

They are god in 6x6, need 4 more to kill one.

 

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On 4.9.2016 at 4:01 PM, Takku said:

Comparing how many people there are at gold or higher for each class, FM and Warlock seem to be by far the weakest 1v1 classes now for some reason. Why is that? Or is it just me doing something wrong? Tower of Infinity is the same, the best FM can clear Floor 51 with maxed Legendary, while most other classes have lots of people way past that. As for myself, I have 649 AP and my record for ToI is Floor 33 which means I start at Floor 21. When I get a Summoner or Destroyer it's pretty much impossible to even win the first round despite using a Frost build and even my Crit Defense set, and that's just stupid considering there's a daily to clear 5 rounds while you only get 2 tickets each day.

Yes you are right - fm is not very good in Pvp. This might be due to different facts.

1) Mb the problem is the ping - w/o some 3rd party programms or KR-Servers ppl can not bring the same action as the example of all "fms are so strong"-boys (jaesung)

2) Or (and i think that is the real reason)

FM got his aircombo-dmg reduced, FM has not rlly much Defense/ParryPen-Skills, Stun-Combos are very time critical and difficult to do perfect - also the 1 can be bocked/deflected and fm has no real burst - to be better at least some of those criteria had to be met.

3) The thing i read in this very forum -> all FMs are only PvE idiots that just got fcked because the only spam lmb-rmb-2 /ironie off ^^.

 

Those apply to the tower as well. With the godlike bot-reaction stuncombos are difficult and unfortunately fm ice does not do the same effect then other classes roots - although it should be a root too. In addition mostly all of the bots have range-defend-shields that a fm either can not break or pierce or he does to little dmg with the skills that can. Furthermore most bots use their defence to the max time and then the lack of burst affects the results negatively.

 

As for wl. WL is pretty strong in PvP under one (very expensive) condition. The WL Player needs almost all HM-Skills that exist for the WL. ^^ Without them he is bad or max medicore with them he rocks the house ;-).

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On 11.9.2016 at 6:21 PM, Calcinha said:

Yes FM is broked, ultra over power with high damage and defensive skill.

2 iframe "Q and E"

1 iframe "SS" (break stun)

1 Ice shield (break everything)

1 Tab SHield with 15% recover HP (break everything)

and frezze freze 

 

They are god in 6x6, need 4 more to kill one.

 

Funny troll post. Frost Armor and Frost Sheath don't break anything, and SS breaks more than stun. Also FM is one of the squishiest classes so yeah, doesn't really take 4 people so long as those people can play their classes. Not to mention that every class has mechanics to avoid/break the freeze snare (which is the only way to chain CC).

 

On 16.9.2016 at 11:38 PM, JatoJato said:

Yes you are right - fm is not very good in Pvp. This might be due to different facts.

1) Mb the problem is the ping - w/o some 3rd party programms or KR-Servers ppl can not bring the same action as the example of all "fms are so strong"-boys (jaesung)

2) Or (and i think that is the real reason)

FM got his aircombo-dmg reduced, FM has not rlly much Defense/ParryPen-Skills, Stun-Combos are very time critical and difficult to do perfect - also the 1 can be bocked/deflected and fm has no real burst - to be better at least some of those criteria had to be met.

3) The thing i read in this very forum -> all FMs are only PvE idiots that just got fcked because the only spam lmb-rmb-2 /ironie off ^^.

 

Those apply to the tower as well. With the godlike bot-reaction stuncombos are difficult and unfortunately fm ice does not do the same effect then other classes roots - although it should be a root too. In addition mostly all of the bots have range-defend-shields that a fm either can not break or pierce or he does to little dmg with the skills that can. Furthermore most bots use their defence to the max time and then the lack of burst affects the results negatively.

 

As for wl. WL is pretty strong in PvP under one (very expensive) condition. The WL Player needs almost all HM-Skills that exist for the WL. ^^ Without them he is bad or max medicore with them he rocks the house ;-).

Well yeah, Fire lacks the control and is obviously very predictible, while Frost lacks any burst to speak of. Still, there's some FMs who manage Plat or even Diamond and I'd rather not believe that's just due to better pings or 3rd party software. As for the Tower, like someone else already pointed out, the bots having Legendaries is very troubling for FMs because the bots will obviously spam their ranged defense skills such as Petal Storm or Divine Veil for the FM bots... it's possible to sleep the cat when I have to fight a Summoner, but even the bots know they just have to stand next to the cat and spam their counter >.> and no, I can't really keep them from going there when they have a Seraph weapon which keeps resetting Petal Storm's CD...

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Quoting myself 

 

On 8/23/2016 at 8:45 AM, Avalyn said:

A lot of you simply don't understand the situation in the game and how these factors play out into the rating statistics.

 

Majority of people play FM to PvE. Majority of players are already PvE only, but especially within the FM population there are far more PvE'ers than PvP'ers. Since it is 2nd hardest PvP class to boot, only a miniscule portion of the FM population actually bothers to PvP, and an even smaller portion of them are good at PvP. That's why they're not really in the ratings. Otherwise FM is easily up there with sin BD destroyer as top PvP classes.

 

A lot of people make the same argument of WL not really being in the ratings and use that as their argument that WL is a weak class. In WL case their population is so low that even though they're ridiculously OP there's not enough people to actually represent them. WL was a huge fad when it first launched but people quickly lost interest in it, very few remaining people kept on playing it, and once again, even fewer people from within that group continued PvP'ing with it.

 

Summoner is actually still very very strong but people keep saying it's been "nerfed." The other classes just got stronger so that the summoner can't full on faceroll anymore (actually they still sort of can). Most people play it to PvE too but then they realize "Hey, I can do pretty well at this PvP thing even though I have no clue what I'm doing." That's why you see 7 pages of gold summoners but not so many at high rating, because they can't compete with higher ELO players who actually know what they're doing so they start to drop off. In general people who want to PvP competitively aren't going to pick this class, and those 7 pages are mostly PvE players who are doing arena every now and then super casually for dailies and whatever.

 

This is just a few examples. Ratings statistics can only give you limited insight. Best judgement of how classes fare is still from in-game experience.

 

 

 

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Hm this is the problem of chicken or egg - which one was first. I mean play FM no PvP because it is difficult or FM is not good enough or is it the other way round so that they play only PvE and are therefore bad.

I think it is the first. I mean BnS is a game most ppl play for PvE because that is where the money is. You cannot make more money in PvE than in PvE at the same time.Also if you want to have some Gear-Progress you have to farm like madman.

 

WL needs many skills to be usefull (almost all). And this brings us to the 2nd Problem -> it is expensive as fck to get all the gold for gear and skills. Nonetheless - funny thing is even if WL is lower he shows up in some ratings - for example tower.

 

Sum got nerfed - and will get some more nerfs. Or mb sum is very easy in lower elos but has difficulties in higher tiers and is not the most popular class... 

 

Yeah with this argumentation - what gives "insight". Ratings = ingame experience - just saying.

On 18.9.2016 at 10:19 AM, Takku said:

Well yeah, Fire lacks the control and is obviously very predictible, while Frost lacks any burst to speak of. Still, there's some FMs who manage Plat or even Diamond and I'd rather not believe that's just due to better pings or 3rd party software. As for the Tower, like someone else already pointed out, the bots having Legendaries is very troubling for FMs because the bots will obviously spam their ranged defense skills such as Petal Storm or Divine Veil for the FM bots... it's possible to sleep the cat when I have to fight a Summoner, but even the bots know they just have to stand next to the cat and spam their counter >.> and no, I can't really keep them from going there when they have a Seraph weapon which keeps resetting Petal Storm's CD...

Afaik there is no top-tier player that does not use a 3rd party software ;-). And of course some ppl do it but the argumentation can not be 1 is able to do it - so all is perfect - mb this one is just beter than the other players (would be also a valid point).

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On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 3:19 AM, Takku said:

Funny troll post. Frost Armor and Frost Sheath don't break anything, and SS breaks more than stun. Also FM is one of the squishiest classes so yeah, doesn't really take 4 people so long as those people can play their classes. Not to mention that every class has mechanics to avoid/break the freeze snare (which is the only way to chain CC).

 

Well yeah, Fire lacks the control and is obviously very predictible, while Frost lacks any burst to speak of. Still, there's some FMs who manage Plat or even Diamond and I'd rather not believe that's just due to better pings or 3rd party software. As for the Tower, like someone else already pointed out, the bots having Legendaries is very troubling for FMs because the bots will obviously spam their ranged defense skills such as Petal Storm or Divine Veil for the FM bots... it's possible to sleep the cat when I have to fight a Summoner, but even the bots know they just have to stand next to the cat and spam their counter >.> and no, I can't really keep them from going there when they have a Seraph weapon which keeps resetting Petal Storm's CD...

 LOL, i think you never played 6v6valley its totally true that fm is hard to take down and ofc kfevader,sf are harder to kill, fm is good enought with all those inmune skills my main is WL and we are really squishi with only 1 real iframe with 36sec CD with no movement skills and a mediocre block skill so please dont talk about WL is strong if you dont play WL and not to ment that fm freeze you when you hit them that really op vs WL.. FM is OP 

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On 21.9.2016 at 8:51 PM, xNina said:

 LOL, i think you never played 6v6valley its totally true that fm is hard to take down and ofc kfevader,sf are harder to kill, fm is good enought with all those inmune skills my main is WL and we are really squishi with only 1 real iframe with 36sec CD with no movement skills and a mediocre block skill so please dont talk about WL is strong if you dont play WL and not to ment that fm freeze you when you hit them that really op vs WL.. FM is OP 

I actually do play Valley, but Valley doesn't have stat adjustment which means it's not proper PvP. My issue is mostly with 1v1 Arena feeling awfully unbalanced.

Oh, and just so you know: Warlock is the only class that can actually burst in Valley when people have 1.5k crit def or even more, and maybe you should respec your Y if you seriously think WL only has 1 iframe. Last but not least I played a friend's WL in season 2 and got to gold rating at level 33 in less than 10 games. FM is definitely among the underpowered classes for actual PvP - WL isn't, or at least it's not as bad.

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On 21-9-2016 at 8:51 PM, xNina said:

 LOL, i think you never played 6v6valley its totally true that fm is hard to take down and ofc kfevader,sf are harder to kill, fm is good enought with all those inmune skills my main is WL and we are really squishi with only 1 real iframe with 36sec CD with no movement skills and a mediocre block skill so please dont talk about WL is strong if you dont play WL and not to ment that fm freeze you when you hit them that really op vs WL.. FM is OP 

I am with you mate as a fellow warlock.

The FM here that say Warlock is strong like Takku does not know how to play a Forcemaster then.
Takku said spec your Y but Y is not even a standard button in this game. xd  

You can spec block + F for a short i frame with again 36 cooldown.
You can spec z for 5 sec iframe 

Leech only blocks stun,daze, knockdown etc. but damage goes though and it needs brand to be applied. Even block breaking leech, can be blocked I noticed. 

and we have frontal block which is 2 seconds, 1 second cooldown, but you cant keep it up. after 2 seconds and recast there is a small frame where you get hit. Causing the block to be completely useless. 
WL has no stun lock. it can do knockdown or daze + knock up, but with the many defense abilities from other classes it isnt that easy.

Now lets check forcemasters.

SS -> Iframe + Freeze enemy  (Short I frame)
Q + E (Short I frame)
Ice shields which regen life if you get hit plus I frame
A normal shield, ranged protection (360 degrees) and regens life

Ice orbs when done a few ice attacks when getting hit freezes enemy  (Aka enemies get constantly frozen), unless fm is in stun lock

If they would remove the freeze on getting hit from FM there will be a huge balancing. 
Or giving Warlocks a Q+ E movement/evasion ability would also work. But Ncsoft developers dont play warlock and hate the class. so yeah thats about it. 

(We can nuke, but only with either, V + Dragonhelix + Volley + Rupture combination. Block etc. wil work easily
Dragoncall parry+defense pen. is slow 
Dragoncall multi cast (HM) is faster but not beneficial can just be blocked as well. 

 

 

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On 9/11/2016 at 9:21 AM, Calcinha said:

Yes FM is broked, ultra over power with high damage and defensive skill.

2 iframe "Q and E"

1 iframe "SS" (break stun)

1 Ice shield (break everything)

1 Tab SHield with 15% recover HP (break everything)

and frezze freze 

 

They are god in 6x6, need 4 more to kill one.

 

Here's a tip: get good.

 

Like, if you just simply don't attack while they're sheathed or in Frost Armor, they won't heal! If they're using stationary veil, don't use projectiles. It's literally as simple as that to kill one. Of course this is coming from a FM who's in the top 30 FMs, so...ya I'm not exactly the one to tell you what to do.

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13 hours ago, ARC1276 said:

Here's a tip: get good.

 

Like, if you just simply don't attack while they're sheathed or in Frost Armor, they won't heal! If they're using stationary veil, don't use projectiles. It's literally as simple as that to kill one. Of course this is coming from a FM who's in the top 30 FMs, so...ya I'm not exactly the one to tell you what to do.

Dont use projectiles. uuhm warlock attacks 100% projectile. 
Even though you use ice armour etc. it gives time for you to recover those bloody ss, q and e.

The only problem I mostly have with damn forcemasters is their frost orbs that freeze you when you hit them. If they remove that part, forcemaster would be balanced more.

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Wrong Hiru. Warlocks have plenty of attacks that go through Veil.

 

I know for a fact;

- Dragoncall goes through Veil for some reason. It's got a travel time, but maybe because it also hits in an area effect, it goes through Veil?

- Dragonhelix does too, but that shouldn't be surprising, it's not a projectile.

- Wingstorm hits through Veil as well. It looks like a projectile but it's actually an area effect ability with no travel time.

 

I haven't played the game in a month and a half, so my memory is a bit iffy. However, I do remember having problems with;

- Tether Blade (X) seemed to hit me a lot when Divine Veil was up. Your mileage may vary, I could actually be wrong here.

- Leech also may have gone through Veil.

 

To play around Veil, you can also try using your Thrall to knock them out of the Veil!

- For a safe play, use Q to blow them backwards. Remember to tech chase them with Tether Blade or Imprison.

- For an aggressive play, SS towards the FM, and call your Thrall with E. It's a trickier play to make, but the cooldowns are lower. You can also chain the first knockback with a second knockback by sending out your Thrall again with Q.

 

-

-

-

 

Nobody said playing Warlock against FM is easy by any means, but it is possible, especially since most FMs won't expect real resistance from a Warlock.

 

1: Run deflect block. That will screw up unprepared FMs a little bit by itself - I've played the matchup from both sides, and a lot of FMs forget to even run Snowball to break defenses. If they get deflected, you can knock them into the air and summon your Thrall.

2: Use Time Distortion, not Soulburn!  If you run Soulburn, any FM with half a brain will be able to easily wait you out with Frost Sheath or Frost Armor, and then all your threat to them is gone.

- If you're wondering "Won't the same thing happen if I use Time Distortion?", the trick is to make the FM blow their escapes first and then use Time Distortion in the middle of a combo for 100% hp damage. This leads me to my third point:

 

3: Learn how to tech chase. Winning as a Warlock in this matchup requires crushing, overwhelming offensive power. This means any time you force an FM to use their F (Retreat) to tech roll a daze or knockdown, follow it up with another ability as soon as they land on their feet.

- For example, you start the match and hit the FM with Tether Blade (X). When they backflip, use Imprison (3) to daze them. This will force them to use SS/Tab or eat a lot of damage.

 

4: Fight close to the walls. FMs will crush you if they can freely move over open ground, because they'll be able to run away from you when you're strong and wait for your Thrall to time out. Either attack hard early in the match and drive the enemy FM towards the arena wall, or put your own back to the wall so the enemy FM can't freeze you then attack you from behind.

- Corners are even better for this strategy. Take note that this also means the FM won't be able to backstep away from you if they get scared.

 

5: Divine Veil T4S1 (blue bubble shield max levelled) is scary and you should respect it. Back off if you can. Dragoncall/Helix/Wingstorm will hit straight through it, but here's another problem - any attack an FM resists while inside that bubble will heal them for 1% of their hp. If you pop Time Distortion and fire 6 Dragoncalls + 6 Wingstorms at an FM while they're in Veil, they might hit Frost Sheath and not only i-frame your damage but also heal up an absurd amount of hp. Do NOT hit into stationary Veil. If the enemy FM is dumb enough to use moving Veil, blast them.

- Speaking of Veil, good Thrall management is also key here. FMs will gleefully take free heals from your Thrall's ranged attacks until you remember to recall your summoned buddy with E.

 

6: Aerials are extremely effective against FMs. There is no way they can escape from being Airborne. Every time you or your Thrall aerials an FM you should be able to get off 3 Bombardments, and if you tech chase the roll you should also be able to land another Bombardment and a Rupture, as well as an instacast Dragoncall/Helix if you scored a crit with the Bombardments.

 

I have more tips but this post is getting too long already.

 

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7: On getting grabbed;

- Don't panic Tab too early! You have other ways of breaking a Phantom Grip. Try them first. Getting your Tab escape is exactly what they want - they'll simply grab you again in another 24 seconds if you're not careful and set you up for a double aerial combo.

- Use your Thrall recall (E) to blow away the FM who's holding you if your Thrall is still up.

- If the FM dashes while holding you to i-frame the Thrall's knockback, wait until the FM drops you and then Thrall switch to safety.

- If the FM has Frost Orbits, do NOT kick them, ever. Each time you kick them while being held, you apply a chill stack to yourself. This is very dangerous!

- If the FM has 1/2 orbits, they'll be able to set you up for a combo if you kick them twice.

- If the FM has all 3 orbits, if you kick them once, they can use up their orbs to cast Dragonfrost, applying 2 chill stacks in the middle of the grab.

- If you get Frozen during a grab, any good FM will attempt to set you up for a painful combo. Interrupting this combo with your Thrall might save either your Tab escape or 50/60% of your health.

 

8: Don't summon your Thrall right at the start of the match.

- This is extremely predictable and a good FM can simply wait your Thrall out. Whenever I saw a WL summon right at the start of the match, I just simply ran around the arena wasting as much time as I could before the Warlock could get close enough to start the fight. With your Thrall on cooldown you're dead meat.

- Instead, try and slam them with Imprison/Tether Blade in the opening seconds of the match, taking careful care to not get Glacial Beamed instead. Be very careful of FMs trying tricky shenanigans like flying in and out of your attack range, or dashing in midair to i-frame your Tether Blade.

- If you screw up the opening seconds of the match and lose your Tab escape, you will almost certainly lose unless the FM begins making big mistakes. This matchup is winnable but there's no margin for error against good players.

- Feel free to summon your Thrall while the FM is knocked down, dazed, or airborne

 

9: Watch the enemy FM's ability usage carefully. Here are the main cooldowns you need to keep track of;

- Tab escape (36 second cd, primary escape)

- SS escape (36 second cd, secondary escape)

- Frost Armor (60 second/3 minute cd [depending on spec] 10 second duration, best delaying tool in FM's kit, they'll use this to heal up a bit + waste 10 seconds of your time).

- Frost Sheath (30 second cd, freezes them for 5 seconds if they get hit).

- Divine Veil (36 second cd [stationary]/45 sec cd [mobile], 15 second duration, stationary version heals for 15% of hp + any attacks they resist inside the bubble, also reduces all damage taken by 20% for the duration.

- Q/E dashes (16 sec cd on each, they'll be forced to put these on cooldown if you snare them repeatedly)

 

I can probably think of more advice but I cbf right now. Have fun!

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17 hours ago, Talinoth said:

I can probably think of more advice but I cbf right now. Have fun!

Snow ball > Stun > Inferno in da head (with 100% crit) or you blow your tab and will get grabbed and just to annoy I press 3 (sleep) 

 

WL is not easy matchup, but not on BM level :) I mean we can make misstakes

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  • 2 weeks later...

Talinoth

 

There are some nice tips, Might have to test them one by one. To do a good damage having more hongmoon skills would be better for warlock that is all I can bring in.

I have not fully tested the wingstorm/helix pen to veil yet. 

The most trouble I have with force masters is just that they freeze you when they attack you and when you attack them. 
but lets see how it goes once I focus on pvp again. ;) 

 



 

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Whats broken on FM in 6v6 is the soulbadge with +heal on Ice-Tab, the insanely good party support, which is worthless in 1v1 obviously and mostly, idiots that bash on them during veil.

If they ice under veil and melees attack them (or cats or whatever) they get heal from veil as well, cus veil heals EVERY resist.

That's just like hitting KFMs counter all day and complaining they are resist to much...

Also, the RNG freezing of enemys which the FM doesnt even attack is annoying.

But FM as a whole certainly is not OP, aside from PvE DPS.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Fm in 6v6 is just a pure joke...

 

kfm? you can't finish him only deflect

Destro? reflect... hoo you are stun...

BM/BD? same shit block / deflect / shield invulnerability?

 

SUM? have fun to kill that shit if u are solo :)

WL? good finally a match up for you

 

SF? you like kfm? same shit

 

Ranked player FM in 1v1 last season? under 250...

 

Fm is actually only good for PVE but for pvp is just the shitty class ever.

 

SS? 36 sec

Tab? 36 sc

Shield tab? 1min

2nd shield 30 sec

 

then after that u are useless or die :)

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FMs are bad in 6v6... what?  They aren't as OP as a gaggle of summoners, I grant you... but ... what?!

 

As many people have noted, FMs *require* an immense burden of knowledge to 1v1 effectively

(but are quite good if you've managed to learn all the classes)

 

If you're bad at 1v1, don't put yourself into 1v1 situations, stick with the group and blow people up and/or stall endlessly.

 

 

And you have to get to pretty high ranks before you stop meeting people that just can't help but hit into the Veil+Ice until you hit full hp.

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^so funny to see a non fm player trying to arg :)

 

Actually i meet up the same BD 5 time in 1v1..

 

even my "1" got deflect + stun, so hardore to play?

Show me your FM in Gold rank in 1v1 then come back after :)

 

Last season, only 250 FM were gold in EU... in EU man...

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