Mulitple Blaze w/ Burn Build

[Nabzy]

I created a Lv 50 HM 10 burn build on bnstree and wanted other people's opinions on this:

 

https://bnstree.com/FM/ByfvYlKu 

 

This build is just a basic burn build with Multiple Blaze + Cold Snap.

 

The reason for running Cold Snap is that after drawing enemies in with your Shadow Grasp, you use F3T2 Cold Snap so that your enemies can be slowed by the chill on crit from that ability, forcing them to stay in your Multiple Blaze for even longer, making Multiple Blaze that much more effective. With a single target burn build, it's really nice to have that extra AoE clear when it's up, so Cold Snap helps you to do a tad more AoE damage along with increasing Multiple Blaze's potential. 

 

Unfortunately, this build sacrifices the dual dragons cooldown reduction from your [2] Blazing Beam in favor having the great AoE clear. 

 

Edit: SoulsHunter recommended using Frost Nova (middle tree of Glacial Beam) to keep the targets frozen. It works really well if you can manage to position yourself in the center of all the mobs. Here's it in action:
 

 

Edit 2: I use this combination regularly now and it makes running dungeons like Shattered Masts a breeze!

 

Edit 3: I've mostly stopped using Cold Snap because the DPS increase isn't enough to merit the time to use the skill. I have, however, been switching between multiple blaze and the phantom grip party saver for near death/chi recovery teammates in places that it's not as beneficial to run Multiple Blaze.

 

[SoulsHunter]

I think Frost Nova is good enough to keep them stuck for 5 sec. So that you can save the two points on cold snap into your blazing beam.

[Zedonia]

I use some different specs:

 

- fire fury -> first point (only because I have that point, don't have multiple blaze yet), more is a waste

- windstorm -> 2 points left (because it seems you don't care about aggro)

- frost armor -> left path (only my preference), knockback + little more heal, good if you are surrounded by enemies, not important

- blazing beam -> take 1 point out, you don't need more ember for burn build

- inferno -> 1 additional point in middle path, it's good for initial burst after glacial beam and also free damage mid battle

 

I don't think cold snap will help a lot. Chill doesn't make any sense for me in pve. Mobs won't be much slower so useless.

[ZackGTie]

I am in favor of cold snap! the key is to use frost soul. This will allow you to use cold snap 3 times and inflict chill per hit x3. It is a good crow control skill. Sadly i dont have blaze yet but I spec my 4 skill to tier3 stage 2 to get used to it and it works just fine. I cast meteor shower and dual dragon while they are fronzen in place. There is no real benefit of using fire soul in my opinion. And why do you prioritize your F in fire stance over your 2 HM skill? just 1 point is enough since the other 2 stage are useless. I would use 1 SP on F fire stance, and will have my dragon blaze HM skill instead.

 

Also i would not use my tab fire stance to daze, i would take 2 point from there and spent one on cold snap all the way to stage 3, like i said before with frost soul you can spam it 3 times and since recover focus per hit you have focus for days!. The last point will for my inferno  or wildfire.

[Nabzy]

16 hours ago, ZackGTie said:

I am in favor of cold snap! the key is to use frost soul. This will allow you to use cold snap 3 times and inflict chill per hit x3. It is a good crow control skill. Sadly i dont have blaze yet but I spec my 4 skill to tier3 stage 2 to get used to it and it works just fine. I cast meteor shower and dual dragon while they are fronzen in place. There is no real benefit of using fire soul in my opinion. And why do you prioritize your F in fire stance over your 2 HM skill? just 1 point is enough since the other 2 stage are useless. I would use 1 SP on F fire stance, and will have my dragon blaze HM skill instead.

 

Also i would not use my tab fire stance to daze, i would take 2 point from there and spent one on cold snap all the way to stage 3, like i said before with frost soul you can spam it 3 times and since recover focus per hit you have focus for days!. The last point will for my inferno  or wildfire.

That daze is very useful in PvE. I think not enough Force Masters use it in general, because it is a good AoE joint CC to any boss as well as groups of mobs. This greatly helps survivability of the party when attacking large groups of mobs. Also, I use this with multiple blaze. Since the Shadow Grasp for this tree only pulls once, I go something like this: Cold Snap (for chill on crit) -> Fire Tab -> Shadow Grasp (4) -> Activate Fire Tab for daze -> Multiple Blaze (4). This will ensure at least 4 if not all 5 multiple blaze attacks hit your target (assuming none of them jump or use gap closers to get to you). It's a very strong combination.

 

Also, since Fire Fury is used a lot in this build to hit with dual dragons and attack with dragonblaze to keep up the fire damage, you need 3 points here to make sure you're not losing damage while using it. Currently with 3 points into Fire Fury, it still feels as if I'm losing damage from my current rotation because Fire Fury then Dragonblaze (using F -> F) takes so long to cast in comparison to my LMB RMB 2 rotation. The extra 2 points here ensure you don't lose too much damage since the third point adds bonus damage on burn. 

On 7/29/2016 at 7:53 PM, SoulsHunter said:

I think Frost Nova is good enough to keep them stuck for 5 sec. So that you can save the two points on cold snap into your blazing beam.

Is that a translation difference? None of my abilities in game are called Frost Nova, unless I'm missing something.

 

[Nabzy]

On 7/30/2016 at 5:31 AM, Zedonia said:

I use some different specs:

 

- fire fury -> first point (only because I have that point, don't have multiple blaze yet), more is a waste

- windstorm -> 2 points left (because it seems you don't care about aggro)

- frost armor -> left path (only my preference), knockback + little more heal, good if you are surrounded by enemies, not important

- blazing beam -> take 1 point out, you don't need more ember for burn build

- inferno -> 1 additional point in middle path, it's good for initial burst after glacial beam and also free damage mid battle

 

I don't think cold snap will help a lot. Chill doesn't make any sense for me in pve. Mobs won't be much slower so useless.

Windstorm causes you to lose dps. 3 seconds of crit doesn't matter when using this causes you to do 4k avg dps instead of the normal avg 18k dps from your normal rotation. You only really NEED 1 point in frost armor because the heal there is really nice in a pinch. I used to have 2 or 3 depending on the situation. That's one of the points i sacrificed to spec into multiple blaze. With burn build, especially with all of the auto detonate FMs out there, stacking that extra ember helps to make sure you are keeping up burn on your target. Some bosses like to clear their ember stacks and so 3 points in beam help achieve that. I'm not sure what i changed in the build, but I was able to actually keep my third point in inferno, so that's really nice. 

 

As for Fire Fury: It is used a lot in this build to hit with dual dragons and attack with dragonblaze to keep up the fire damage. You need 3 points here to make sure you're not losing damage while using it. Currently with 3 points into Fire Fury, it still feels as if I'm losing damage from my current rotation because Fire Fury then Dragonblaze (using F -> F) takes so long to cast in comparison to my LMB RMB 2 rotation. The extra 2 points here ensure you don't lose too much damage since the third point adds bonus damage on burn. 

[SoulsHunter]

1 hour ago, Nabzy said:

Is that a translation difference?

None of my abilities in game are called Frost Nova, unless I'm missing something.

 

Frost Nova is the middle tree of glacial beam, since you are talking about groups of enemies. I was thinking maybe you can switch glacial beam to frost nova. This way you can put the 2 points from cold snap to your blazing beam.

[Nabzy]

52 minutes ago, SoulsHunter said:

Frost Nova is the middle tree of glacial beam, since you are talking about groups of enemies. I was thinking maybe you can switch glacial beam to frost nova. This way you can put the 2 points from cold snap to your blazing beam.

The joint CC from Glacial Beam is hard to give up, but I may try this for adds and certain boss fights that spawn lots of adds. I'll be honest, I only ever think about my 3 as either the first or last tree. 

 

I'll likely keep my cold snap specced because it increases ice damage by 10% (which is about 4k damage on a crit dual dragons), but I'll give frost nova a try. Thanks =D

[Nabzy]

Thanks for the Frost Nova recomendation. That combo works really well.

 

Here's a video if it in action.

 

I'll add this to the OG post.

 

 

[Zedonia]

On ‎01‎.‎08‎.‎2016 at 3:06 PM, Nabzy said:

Windstorm causes you to lose dps. 3 seconds of crit doesn't matter when using this causes you to do 4k avg dps instead of the normal avg 18k dps from your normal rotation.

What 4k dps? Specced windstorm does (I think) around 8k per hit (over 10k with blue buff), so 16k per use (every use adds 6% crit and because I have 60% anyway, except the first 1 or 2 uses, everything will crit making the synergy from amethyst really good and the Overall damage very high). In combination with the previous used Meteor it is definitely worth it cause meteor will always crit, too.

 

It seems you are focusing very much on aoe. I know multiple blaze is good but I would not make a build because of trash mobs. The important fights are the bosses and there cold snap is useless and also  frost nova is useless.

On ‎31‎.‎07‎.‎2016 at 11:03 PM, ZackGTie said:

There is no real benefit of using fire soul in my opinion.

Kidding, right? Running frost Soul in pve is only allowed by using complete frost build. You are losing that much dps and focus by using frost soul in burn build you could run auto-detonate, too, because your damage will be low, no matter what.

[Intersolar]

U used ice tab in the video anyway then why not spec it to freeze+backdash and then use m.blaze straight after? freeze from it should keep them in place long enough to kill.

[Nabzy]

On 8/3/2016 at 6:54 AM, Intersolar said:

U used ice tab in the video anyway then why not spec it to freeze+backdash and then use m.blaze straight after? freeze from it should keep them in place long enough to kill.

The description on the YouTube video says there are other combinations you can use. That being one of them. Also, you can't rely on your ice tab for multiple blaze. They may share the same duration cooldowns, but that doesn't mean you won't have to use your tab to save yourself elsewhere. That's where speccing frost nova is nice when you don't need the stun. 

 

[Nabzy]

On 8/2/2016 at 3:08 PM, Zedonia said:

What 4k dps? Specced windstorm does (I think) around 8k per hit (over 10k with blue buff), so 16k per use (every use adds 6% crit and because I have 60% anyway, except the first 1 or 2 uses, everything will crit making the synergy from amethyst really good and the Overall damage very high). In combination with the previous used Meteor it is definitely worth it cause meteor will always crit, too.

If windstorm actually did 8k per hit, I would use it. That would mean it was almost as strong as my Blazing Beam, but it's not even close. 

 

Let's look at the numbers for a second.

Windstorm: http://imgur.com/a/XuQ9Y (3 points left tree)

 

LMB RMB 2: http://imgur.com/a/IZz3T (3 points in right tree RMB, 5 points middle tree LMB, 3 points Blazing Beam)

 

So even if you can get off 2 casts of windstorm per LMB RMB 2 rotation, you're doing (I'll use the max number it hits for):

 

49+3.5xAP over 2 hits. Twice if we're comparing it to the time it takes for LMB RMB 2.

Total: 98+7xAP 

 

Just one rotation of LMB RMB 2 on a burned target would be:

 

LMB: 17+1.2xAP + 28+2.0xAP (flame soul trained) + 25+1.8xAP (burned enemy)

RMB: 21+1.5xAP

2 - Blazing Beam: 84+6.0xAP + 56+4.0xAP (burned enemy)

 

Add up all those numbers and you're seeing that even just a blazing beam cast is going to result in higher damage than 2 windstorm casts. Even if you're Meteor doesn't crit at all using this rotation instead (unlikely if you have 50%+ crit) , you'll likely still be doing more damage just by casting your LMB RMB 2 rotation instead of applying windstorm to *try* and ensure crits on your meteor (they're still not guaranteed).

[Zedonia]

Sorry, i don't get what you are calculating. I can't see your pictures so maybe I miss something there. I am referring to https://bnstree.com/FM .

 

You used the numbers completely wrong.

 

If you look at flame palm the base damage is 1.00 (that's 12-14 damage -> 13 damage).

Flame soul adds 2.00 damage (24-28 -> 26 -> 13x2).

Burn damage is 1.80 (22-25 -> 23.5 -> divided by 1.80 = 13.05 -> rounded numbers are shown on the side).

 

Got it? Ok.

 

Now compare the damage:

 

LMB is 5.00

RMB is 1.50

Beam is 10.00

summ: 16.50

 

Windstorm is 7.00 (important is the additional damage, only use it on grabbed enemies) x 2 because that damage applies to both hits. Summ: 14.00

 

So from the raw damage, windstorm is a bit weaker but here comes the crit. As I said, I start with 60% crit and I get 6% per use by maybe 2 uses per second. I reach 10 stacks very fast what means 90% crit chance. I won't calculate crit damage here but even if it is not very much better it's definitely not worse than using LMB, RMB, beam.

 

Then you can add Amethyst damage on top because if you always crit, the gem will always proc. The crit chance is the thing what makes windstorm that good. How much crit chance do you have? How often your RMB, LMB, beam does not crit? Compare a 90% crit windstorm with a 60% crit RMB, LMB, beam (where definitely some skills won't always crit) and you should get what I want to say here. Meteor synergy is just another dps boost here.

[SoulsHunter]

Currently still leveling my force master. According to you, Windstorm barely do the same damage but only on grabbed enemies. Unless you are in a party with blade dancer, destroyer and sunmoner, I wonder is it really worth it to put so many points in it? From my limited experience, grabbled dps is only good for over geared run to finish the boss as soon as possible, before the fight even begins. Personally I wouldn't count on it too much on normal runs. Our damage is not that high so we spend most of the fight dealing with boss not being grabbed. Unless full summoner & blade dancer party? 0.0

[Zedonia]

If you are still leveling, you don't need it. The thread was created with build for HM 10 and with that level you have the points.

[Racingwind]

17 hours ago, Nabzy said:

So even if you can get off 2 casts of windstorm per LMB RMB 2 rotation, you're doing (I'll use the max number it hits for):

 

49+3.5xAP over 2 hits. Twice if we're comparing it to the time it takes for LMB RMB 2.

Total: 98x7xAP 

 

Just one rotation of LMB RMB 2 on a burned target would be:

 

LMB: 17x1.2 + 28x2.0 (flame soul trained) + 25x1.8 (burned enemy)

RMB: 21x1.5

2 - Blazing Beam: 84 x 6.0 + 56 x 4.0 (burned enemy)

 

That's not how the game calculates wind storm, or damage in general. Taking blazing beam for example, you do not multiply 84 with 6.0. That 84 is flat base damage, it's the damage you would do, assuming you have 0 AP. So the correct formula should be 84 + 6.0 * AP. But since the AP scaling usually far out weights the flat damage, for simple comparison purpose, you can omit it.

3 hours ago, Zedonia said:

Windstorm is 7.00 (important is the additional damage, only use it on grabbed enemies) x 2 because that damage applies to both hits. Summ: 14.00

That's incorrect. Much like meteor, wind storm damage has two components. The first, 3.5 over two hits, is divided by 2, so each hit is only 1.75. The second, ADDITIONAL damage is applied to both hits of wind storm. So if the additional damage condition is met, then the formula is (1.75 + 3.5) * 2 * AP = 10.5 * AP which puts it just slightly over blazing beam, and indeed, that's the number you would see. This is one cast of wind storm.

 

One rotation of LMB + RMB + 2, assuming the target is burning, fire soul and HM flame palm, is:

HM LMB: (1.2 + 2 + 1.8) * AP = 5 * AP

RMB: 1.5 * AP = 1.5 * AP

2: (6 + 4) * AP = 10 * AP

Total = (5 + 3.5 + 10) * AP = 16.5 * AP

 

One rotation of LMB + RMB + 2 is gated by the 1 second GCD of 2. So every second you can do this rotation once. Wind storm on the other hand, can be cast a minimum of twice a second.

 

LMB + RMB + 2 = 16.5 * AP

2x wind storm: 2 * (10.5 * AP) = 21 * AP

 

You can see that with 2 casts, you will be doing more than if you stick to the normal rotation. NOTE that this requires the extra damage condition to be met.

 

In conclusion, regardless of the crit buff or not, you SHOULD be using windstorm when the extra damage condition is met, because of the superior raw damage it has over normal rotation.

[Nabzy]

2 hours ago, Racingwind said:

That's not how the game calculates wind storm, or damage in general. Taking blazing beam for example, you do not multiply 84 with 6.0. That 84 is flat base damage, it's the damage you would do, assuming you have 0 AP. So the correct formula should be 84 + 6.0 * AP. But since the AP scaling usually far out weights the flat damage, for simple comparison purpose, you can omit it.

You're right. I did my first calculation for windstorm correctly (then butchered it in the second one) and confused myself and just did all of my calculations wrong after that. I corrected it, thanks.

 

And you're right. ONLY when that condition is met will Windstorm ever do more damage than your 2, but honestly... That condition USUALLY is not met. 

 

Keep in mind the damage from your LMB and RMB should also come into the calculation. you still end up doing more damage in the end with the normal LMB RMB 2 instead of 2 windstorms (even with the condition met). 

[Nabzy]

On 7/30/2016 at 5:31 AM, Zedonia said:

- windstorm -> 2 points left (because it seems you don't care about aggro)

 

On 8/5/2016 at 6:05 AM, Racingwind said:

In conclusion, regardless of the crit buff or not, you SHOULD be using windstorm when the extra damage condition is met, because of the superior raw damage it has over normal rotation.

Take a look at this spreadsheet i made for calculating damage. It takes the base damage and adds it to the Multiplier x AP, and then compares a crit damage modifier. I have ~680 AP and 2.28 Crit Damage %, so it uses those. (It also calculates Flame Soul Dragonblaze buff as 4% increase in damage. You can ignore that since that's mostly for myself.)

 

The total for doing a single LMB RMB 2 rotation totals around 26k, while 2 windstorms while the condition is met is still only 22k dps. This ability is not worth using or even wasting your points, as the condition for doubling the damage for this ability is rarely ever met, and when it is, still results in a lower damage output than the normal rotation.

The argument, "But it increases crit," is valid, but it's only for 3 seconds. So I still feel by the time you finish using this ability that the two different rotations will result in about the same DPS in the end due to the increased crit rate, resulting in wasting 2-3 points in windstorm. Not to mention, if you put those 2 points in HM Blazing Beam and opt for my rotation, you'll refresh the cooldown of your Dual Dragons even quicker resulting in higher DPS output by shorting the cooldown of one of your strongest abilities. 

 

EDIT: The RMB damage calculations (with dragonblaze buff only) were incorrect in the image I previously posted. I removed this image because of this. To view the whole spreadsheet, feel free to enter your AP and crit damage % here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ExY2S0CfPmOsCS8twinT_XwArD6V9gmPx729XStsW-k/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Zedonia]

1 hour ago, Nabzy said:

The total for doing a single LMB RMB 2 rotation totals around 26k, while 2 windstorms while the condition is met is still only 22k dps. This ability is not worth using or even wasting your points, as the condition for doubling the damage for this ability is rarely ever met, and when it is, still results in a lower damage output than the normal rotation.

No, because you forgot something in your calculation: To double the windstorm damage because you can use it twice during one normal rotation.

 

Racingwind explained it very well:

6 hours ago, Racingwind said:

One rotation of LMB + RMB + 2 is gated by the 1 second GCD of 2. So every second you can do this rotation once. Wind storm on the other hand, can be cast a minimum of twice a second.

 

Now in your sheet you compare 1 normal rotation with 1 use of windstorm. The 22k dmg from windstorm you listed is 1 use of windstorm (1 use are 2 hits). You have to double that dmg to compare the skills and that's what Racingwind did before.

6 hours ago, Racingwind said:

LMB + RMB + 2 = 16.5 * AP

2x wind storm: 2 * (10.5 * AP) = 21 * AP

Windstorm is better than the normal rotation even without looking at crit and crit dmg. Btw. with higher crit dmg windstorm becomes even better because you will raise your crit with that skill and crit almost 100%.

 

It's true that the condition is not always met and never in some groups. You don#t have to use it if you have more useful skills but if you compare the damage, windstorm wins.

[Nabzy]

12 minutes ago, Zedonia said:

No, because you forgot something in your calculation: To double the windstorm damage because you can use it twice during one normal rotation.

I did not forget that. The 22k damage IS doubled. That's two complete uses of windstorm (4 hits total). It's 11k for a single use of windstorm. Take a look at my calculator and compare with your own calculation if you don't believe me.

12 minutes ago, Zedonia said:

Windstorm is better than the normal rotation even without looking at crit and crit dmg. Btw. with higher crit dmg windstorm becomes even better because you will raise your crit with that skill and crit almost 100%.

Perhaps there is a better way to maximize your damage using this ability? 

While the condition for windstorm's bonus damage is met, perhaps something like this would be most efficient? :

 

F - > F -> 2 -> F -> F -> 2  repeat until condition is no longer met.

Can you cast windstorm immediately after a blazing beam?

[Racingwind]

6 hours ago, Nabzy said:

The total for doing a single LMB RMB 2 rotation totals around 26k, while 2 windstorms while the condition is met is still only 22k dps. This ability is not worth using or even wasting your points, as the condition for doubling the damage for this ability is rarely ever met, and when it is, still results in a lower damage output than the normal rotation.

Nice spreadsheet, will be handy. However in regards to the wind storm calculation, there is an error.

 

You are using the formula: 2 * 3.5 * AP per cast of wind storm, when condition is met.

It should be: 2 * (1.75 + 3.5) * AP = 3 * 3.5 * AP per cast of wind storm, when condition is met.

 

The damage isn't doubled when the condition is met, it should be tripled, as the additional damage is applied twice, on each hit. See explanation below.

10 hours ago, Racingwind said:

Much like meteor, wind storm damage has two components. The first, 3.5 over two hits, is divided by 2, so each hit is only 1.75. The second, ADDITIONAL damage is applied to both hits of wind storm. So if the additional damage condition is met, then the formula is (1.75 + 3.5) * 2 * AP = 10.5 * AP which puts it just slightly over blazing beam, and indeed, that's the number you would see. This is one cast of wind storm.

Basically in your sheet the wind storm damage, when condition is met, needs to be increased by 1.5 times.

 

2x wind storm should be roughly 27% more damage compared to 1 rotation of LBM + RMB + 2.

 

Hopefully that helps clear up the confusion.

 

[Nabzy]

On 8/5/2016 at 5:02 PM, Racingwind said:

Nice spreadsheet, will be handy. However in regards to the wind storm calculation, there is an error.

 

You are using the formula: 2 * 3.5 * AP per cast of wind storm, when condition is met.

It should be: 2 * (1.75 + 3.5) * AP = 3 * 3.5 * AP per cast of wind storm, when condition is met.

 

The damage isn't doubled when the condition is met, it should be tripled, as the additional damage is applied twice, on each hit. See explanation below.

Basically in your sheet the wind storm damage, when condition is met, needs to be increased by 1.5 times.

 

2x wind storm should be roughly 27% more damage compared to 1 rotation of LBM + RMB + 2.

 

Hopefully that helps clear up the confusion.

 

I tried this with Fire Fury and Meteor shower in game. You're right. The bonus damage is applied on hit, per hit with multi-hit abilities. Thanks. The spreadsheet is now updated and should be accurately calculating those two rotations. 

 

So in this case, windstorm is only worth using for the few seconds of a fight where the boss is indeed grabbed/grappled, but only if you have at least 3 points into it, so you don't steal aggro from the tank. Two windstorm casts apply about 7k more damage than the LMB RMB 2 rotation and not to mention increase your crit. It is, without a doubt, stronger, however I'm still hesitant to waste skill points there where they could be better used reducing my Dual Dragons cooldown. I'd like to test this out, though. 

[Racingwind]

1 hour ago, Nabzy said:

I tried this with Fire Fury and Meteor shower in game. You're right. The bonus damage is applied on hit, per hit with multi-hit abilities. Thanks. The spreadsheet is now updated and should be accurately calculating those two rotations. 

 

So in this case, windstorm is only worth using for the few seconds of a fight where the boss is indeed grabbed/grappled, but only if you have at least 3 points into it, so you don't steal aggro from the tank. Two windstorm casts apply about 7k more damage than the LMB RMB 2 rotation and not to mention increase your crit. It is, without a doubt, stronger, however I'm still hesitant to waste skill points there where they could be better used reducing my Dual Dragons cooldown. I'd like to test this out, though. 

Personally I would take points from multiple blaze and put it in windstorm since multiple blaze is a channeled skill and at the same time requires the boss to be relatively still. With the right party setup, you should get slightly more damage output from windstorm, unless of course the boss can't be CCed at least once every minute.

[ZackGTie]

interisting guys! i have some testing to do today :P