[Suggestion] Whirlwind Valley improvements

[Ip Kai]

The main issue of Whirlwind Valley according to me is the fact that you cannot recruit & kick people there.

 

I did 4vs6 once (a player went offline & another rage quitted) and several times 5vs6. This happens in like 1 out of 4 runs on average.

 

Making the kick / recruit features of regular PvE dungeons available in Whirlwind Valley would solve this issue. 

 

We also need an auto feature kicking afk players in Whirlwind Valley since they're as useful as offline players, or making party leaders able to kick afk players.

 

Another way to solve the afk player issue would be creating a vote system that any party member can launch against any afk player, making a small window pop up on the player's screens asking them to make a choice (wait for the afk player or kick him & recruit).

 

Another thing regarding this mode, I can never play this mode on days when there is no Whirlwind Valley daily quest needed to get the special rewards (the ones you get by completing 4 daily quests out of 5 available). This shows this mode is not attractive enough to most players.

 

Improving the rewards of this mode and improving the mode itself, perhaps by proposing new arenas and new quests for each arena, would attract more players to this mode. You could also create a 4vs4 mode for different arenas.

 

We can also notice dailies are always 4 PvE and 1 PvP. We could balance it and make it 3 PvE and 2 PvP, or offer more choices and make it 4 PvE and 2 PvP.

 

This would make 6v6 and PvP overall more interesting for us players.

 

 

 

[Zekken]

Most people aren't playing 6v6 because it is unequalized and favors those who have the money and/or time to get the best gear.

[FakeName]

33 minutes ago, Zekken said:

Most people aren't playing 6v6 because it is unequalized and favors those who have the money and/or time to get the best gear.

No, most people don't play it because the rewards are far too low for the time investment.  It has the lowest rate of gold/material/exp accrual of all available ways to spend your time.  There are plenty of people that would play if the time investment was worth it (hell, I am one of them).

 

 

[Zekken]

Yeah, you're right now that I think about it since the majority of the player base consists of PVE players. I was looking at it from the perspective of a PVP player.  Myself, I'm more inclined to participate if gear is equalized and probably still would not play if they only increased the rewards.

[FakeName]

3 hours ago, Zekken said:

Yeah, you're right now that I think about it since the majority of the player base consists of PVE players. I was looking at it from the perspective of a PVP player.  Myself, I'm more inclined to participate if gear is equalized and probably still would not play if they only increased the rewards.

As someone who pvp's in all formats (arena, ow, 6v6) quite a bit, I honestly find 6v6 quite fun and it's a hell of a lot less cancerous than trying to farm moonstones in SSP as a Crimson Legion on Mushin.  If the rewards/rate of battle points accrual was good enough to entice more people there it would be fantastic.

[azraelkun]

 I would suggest that win give 500 points n loose 150 for starters also kick option would be nice.

Also reduce the battleground max time at least 3 mins.

Gear i dont mind if equall or not cause some ppl work hard to get it fyi im sitting with 488 ap on my fm n 528 on my main sin yeah still getting wins

[Shuchin]

Contrary to intuition 6vs6 does not need any expensive gear, as PvP gear is very distinct from PvE gear. All thanks to Crit def.

 

A simple sparring or sparring / challenger mix soul shield mix with crit def upgrading (150-200g), alpine earing, soulstones or breeze ring (silvers!) and your hongmoon necklace is affordable for anyone and transforms you into a dreadnought. The most expensive component for a full PvP set is the pet, and a higher stage weapon.

 

I am always surprised by how ignorant players still are of these options, and a bit annoyed when I see the 600AP+ recruit call when I am perfectly fine with 580AP and 30% (!) pierce.

[InstantDeath]

15 minutes ago, Shuchin said:

Contrary to intuition 6vs6 does not need any expensive gear, as PvP gear is very distinct from PvE gear. All thanks to Crit def.

 

A simple sparring or sparring / challenger mix soul shield mix with crit def upgrading (150-200g), alpine earing, soulstones or breeze ring (silvers!) and your hongmoon necklace is affordable for anyone and transforms you into a dreadnought. The most expensive component for a full PvP set is the pet, and a higher stage weapon.

 

I am always surprised by how ignorant players still are of these options, and a bit annoyed when I see the 600AP+ recruit call when I am perfectly fine with 580AP and 30% (!) pierce.

Have you ever fought against a BM,BD or KFM who has HM Block ?
6v6 is just pure garbage. Even if they give 5 moonstones for each win, i wouldn't do the dailies.

[Shuchin]

I play KFM (without HM block btw) and though I only play on daily challenge 6v6 days, I am currently on a 4 winning streak. Fighting those 3 classes in 6v6 is easier than in arena, at least with the gear I mention.

 

As for reward structure, PvP seems strongly undervalued at the moment, in all areas. Not really sure why that is. Even the season rewards for the top 10 in arena sound lame compared to one single daily challenge run with pouches. (-_-)'

[FakeName]

2 hours ago, InstantDeath said:

Have you ever fought against a BM,BD or KFM who has HM Block ?
6v6 is just pure garbage. Even if they give 5 moonstones for each win, i wouldn't do the dailies.

They can use HM block in Arena too, so I don't really understand how that would be different?  It's fine that you don't like it, but your argument doesn't even support your statement.  It's nonsensical.

 

Also, regardless of whatyou specifically  would do, I guarantee that 6v6 would be full of people if every win rewarded 5 moonstones.

 

1 hour ago, Shuchin said:

I play KFM (without HM block btw) and though I only play on daily challenge 6v6 days, I am currently on a 4 winning streak. Fighting those 3 classes in 6v6 is easier than in arena, at least with the gear I mention.

 

As for reward structure, PvP seems strongly undervalued at the moment, in all areas. Not really sure why that is. Even the season rewards for the top 10 in arena sound lame compared to one single daily challenge run with pouches. (-_-)'

this is the biggest problem overall.  The rewards for time invested in PVP are incomparably terrible when compared to pve content.  If they want people to have to pvp and pve to reach peak potential, they should really make both aspects equally rewarding to encourage participation.

 

Things like rank 1 in arena being less rewarding than some of the ranks below it is asinine and shouldn't ever happen.  The current state of 6v6 is a good example.  It's not that there aren't any good potential rewards in 6v6, it's that to actually get the rewards from 6v6 you'd have to spend 1000x more time than if you just went and did pve content.

[MCOnyx]

I also love doing 6v6, it's great fun, but sadly it's ghost town, even when it's on daily challenge, I have to wait 10-15 min to get entry. Rewards definitely need to increase there, the weekly quest was good addition, but that weekly should be maybe every 2-3 days, or even a daily  to entice people even more. Also points for win/loose need to at least double.

 

To get 1k points, you need 5 wins, that takes more than an hour (1:30h) and a bit less if you buy chest with 700 points + bravery and in the end you get 2-3 moonstones + 10-15 soulstones... a damn joke, compared to SSP.

[Shuchin]

Concerning the reward inequality, I suspect the problem is this:

 

NCSoft West is currently trying to drive the gear and skill progression of the West to catch up with  Asia. Since they want the core parameters (drop rates, exp rates, gear stats) to stay as closely matched as possible, they decided for a boosted reward approach: Yes, you still have to work for your rewards (daily challenge, endgame dungeons), but the reward is crazily amplified (Hongmoon pouches, Merchant of Wonders). In a way, it's working quite well, as people are progressing like crazy and the marketplace has not completely collapsed (yes, stingers have gone down, but not in a way that you would get them for 20 silvers now).

 

But, they decided to leave PvP completely out of it. Probably because the majority of the player base is PvE, and gear progression is more relevant for PvEers. This means that for PvX players, the incentive has been boosted only for one side of their interest, and this has also backlashed unto the pure PvPers who see deserted arenas. T_T

 

So, in a way, it should get better once the catching-up has finished. But that's likely to take months! I would suggest some interim help for the PvP community as well. Especially if we want to compete in worlds this year, we need more than 7 KFM in Platinum and none in Diamond in EU. >.<

[InstantDeath]

1 hour ago, FakeName said:

They can use HM block in Arena too, so I don't really understand how that would be different?  It's fine that you don't like it, but your argument doesn't even support your statement.  It's nonsensical.

 

Also, regardless of whatyou specifically  would do, I guarantee that 6v6 would be full of people if every win rewarded 5 moonstones.

 

this is the biggest problem overall.  The rewards for time invested in PVP are incomparably terrible when compared to pve content.  If they want people to have to pvp and pve to reach peak potential, they should really make both aspects equally rewarding to encourage participation.

 

Things like rank 1 in arena being less rewarding than some of the ranks below it is asinine and shouldn't ever happen.  The current state of 6v6 is a good example.  It's not that there aren't any good potential rewards in 6v6, it's that to actually get the rewards from 6v6 you'd have to spend 1000x more time than if you just went and did pve content.

I didn't want to spell it to you because i thought you would get it but... In arena you have 40-45k hp, reduced ap & def. Imagine a KFM with 95k hp + crit def soulshields + hm block. Even if he uses only Q,E,SS,ice guard in 1 vs 6, it'll take at least a minute for 6 people to kill him.

6v6 is the worst pvp mode i've ever seen in any mmo, and unless they equalise items in there, it'll always be a ghost town.

[FakeName]

3 minutes ago, InstantDeath said:

I didn't want to spell it to you because i thought you would get it but... In arena you have 40-45k hp, reduced ap & def. Imagine a KFM with 95k hp + crit def soulshields + hm block. Even if he uses only Q,E,SS,ice guard in 1 vs 6, it'll take at least a minute for 6 people to kill him.

6v6 is the worst pvp mode i've ever seen in any mmo, and unless they equalise items in there, it'll always be a ghost town.

I kill KFMs and BMs with HM block in OW and 6v6 all the time.  People with that much hp or more, people with 700 ap and crit def.  The biggest issue with KFM in OW is if people keep giving them free iframes.  That comes down to player stupidity, not gear inequality.  It is no different from me fighting 6 people in misty because they just mindlessly threw out skills and kept triggering my counter allowing me to stay stealthed and pick them off one at a time.

 

Gear inequality may be a sore point for you personally, but it has absolutely nothing to do with why 6v6 is unpopular.  More importantly, if you don't want to be bothered gearing yourself, YOU AREN'T EVEN THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF 6V6.

[Shuchin]

both rationally and from personal experience I would contradict this:

 

iframes protect the KFM exactly as much of a time percentage in 6v6 as they do in 1v1 - there are always gaps to be exploited. And if it's 6 good people, they are going to find the first gap pretty quickly. Then it's a blown tab (because you cannot sit out anything 1 vs 6) and then 2nd gap kills you. Been there, died.

 

Of course if the 6 people are PvE geared, with pierce under 1000, and no big arena skill, you can do a minute, even 2 minutes, 1 vs 6. Also been there, survived.

 

I think in 6v6 the minute just feels so much longer, because the pressure is higher. I quite like the mode, since it has more terrain and strategy components.

And I would play a gear equalized version, if it was offered - it would still be the same fun.

I think what I mainly wanted to say with my post above is: You can help making  6v6 more equalized by spreading the word how easy it is to make the gear effect less noticeable.

Currently it's crazy, because people with 0 crit defense try to participate and walk away frustrated. No wonder it's unpopular. As with so many things, education is the key. They should offer a tutorial in game explaining about crit def, honestly. :/

[Zekken]

3 hours ago, FakeName said:

Gear inequality may be a sore point for you personally, but it has absolutely nothing to do with why 6v6 is unpopular.  More importantly, if you don't want to be bothered gearing yourself, YOU AREN'T EVEN THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF 6V6.

I conceded to your point earlier that lack of rewards was the main issue, but it isn't the only reason why 6v6 is dead. I have expressed my displeasure with unequalized gear and InsantDealth also mentioned it which probably means there are a few others who feel the same way too.  If that is true, then it would be correct to state that unequalized gear does have an effect on the low 6v6 participation.

 

6v6 is considered a PvP battleground, so InstantDeath would be considered part of the target audience if he is a PvPer. Everyone who has played the game long enough knows who the real target audience is for 6v6, but it can be interpreted differently by a new player coming in who wants to do all PvP content.

 

[FakeName]

17 minutes ago, Zekken said:

I conceded to your point earlier that lack of rewards was the main issue, but it isn't the only reason why 6v6 is dead. I have expressed my displeasure with unequalized gear and InsantDealth also mentioned it which probably means there are a few others who feel the same way too.  If that is true, then it would be correct to state that unequalized gear does have an effect on the low 6v6 participation.

 

6v6 is considered a PvP battleground, so InstantDeath would be considered part of the target audience if he is a PvPer. Everyone who has played the game long enough knows who the real target audience is for 6v6, but it can be interpreted differently by a new player coming in who wants to do all PvP content.

 

I thikn part of the problem is that people don't make a distinction between different types of PVPer.  I like gear inclusive pvp because it allows me to tweak my character to perform the exact way I want it to by balancing stats in a way I desire.  I like and enjoy this aspect of gameplay quite a bit.  

 

There is also my opposite, the arena pvper that does not want to do anything except pvp in arena.  These kinds of pvpers dislike 6v6 because they feel they cannot compete since it would mean leaving the arena.  There is nothing wrong with this, but they are clearly not the same audience as the person who wants to mess around in 6v6.

 

I happen to do both, and I am not too bad in arena (My highest rating was 1893) even though I don't arena that much most days.  If I had to pick which type of pvp I enjoy most though?  I'd take Open World/6v6 over arena any day.  I simply feel it's a more diverse experience.

[InstantDeath]

5 hours ago, FakeName said:

Gear inequality may be a sore point for you personally, but it has absolutely nothing to do with why 6v6 is unpopular.  More importantly, if you don't want to be bothered gearing yourself, YOU AREN'T EVEN THE TARGET AUDIENCE OF 6V6.

I enjoy pvp more than pve, but 6v6 is just plain bs. Yes, you need crit def. To farm crit def, you need to fam infinity tower. To farm infinity tower, you need good gear. To get a good gear, you need to grind in pve.

BnS actually turned me into a pve guy. I've been playing mmos for at least 9 years now. I waste most of my time in pvp in all the games ive ever played. I'm also addicted to open world pvp ( spent 4 years in CZ in Knight Online if you have any idea what that means ), i also love 1v1 ( also spent 2 years in C9, as for me best 1v1 pvp system ) but here, i really don't like it that much. I guess you are right, im not the target audience, the target audience must be those guys who spent lots of cash to max their eqs and want to beat people in 6v6.

If you are a hardcore pvper, don't waste your time on battlegrounds. Go to 1v1 or 3v3 where eqs are equalized. At least there will be one less inequality in a duel ( there'll be still hm skills, hm levels and skillpoints )

[FakeName]

19 hours ago, InstantDeath said:

I enjoy pvp more than pve, but 6v6 is just plain bs. Yes, you need crit def. To farm crit def, you need to fam infinity tower. To farm infinity tower, you need good gear. To get a good gear, you need to grind in pve.

BnS actually turned me into a pve guy. I've been playing mmos for at least 9 years now. I waste most of my time in pvp in all the games ive ever played. I'm also addicted to open world pvp ( spent 4 years in CZ in Knight Online if you have any idea what that means ), i also love 1v1 ( also spent 2 years in C9, as for me best 1v1 pvp system ) but here, i really don't like it that much. I guess you are right, im not the target audience, the target audience must be those guys who spent lots of cash to max their eqs and want to beat people in 6v6.

If you are a hardcore pvper, don't waste your time on battlegrounds. Go to 1v1 or 3v3 where eqs are equalized. At least there will be one less inequality in a duel ( there'll be still hm skills, hm levels and skillpoints )

You don't need Infinity Tower to get crit defense?  You can craft crit defense SS primers if you have a soul warden crafter. 

[Shuchin]

On 15 July 2016 at 5:38 PM, FakeName said:

You don't need Infinity Tower to get crit defense?  You can craft crit defense SS primers if you have a soul warden crafter. 

indeed.

And if your PvE gear is so bad that you cannot get a Sparring or Naksun set, even using Yeti you can upgrade up to 1500 crit def for not that much gold and even get 400 pierce and 400 accuracy to help stats. Or leech some awesome high HP Naryu tiles (though this will cap your crit def from fusions to about 1150).

[FakeName]

1 hour ago, Shuchin said:

indeed.

And if your PvE gear is so bad that you cannot get a Sparring or Naksun set, even using Yeti you can upgrade up to 1500 crit def for not that much gold and even get 400 pierce and 400 accuracy to help stats. Or leech some awesome high HP Naryu tiles (though this will cap your crit def from fusions to about 1150).

Hell I had 73k hp in a Scorpio Soul shield (and this is pre pets ind you).  Grab one of those and throw some crit def on it for a decent hp/def setup, or go yeti for the higher base crit and infuse it with crit def.  Either way, you got options that will allow you to fight if you are willing to actually explore them.  

[Zekken]

Reading over the past comments from various people makes the picture even clearer on why 6v6 is dead. PVE players are looking for the best reward for their time and there are many better options than 6v6. Most PVP players are looking for competitive play and want to be able to jump right into it which is why arena is a better option for purely PVP players. 

 

Some argue that it's not too difficult to gear for 6v6, but why bother when you can just jump into arena for your PVP fix.

 

6v6 is geared toward PvX players. Pure PVE players and pure PVP players have no interest or reason to play it due to, as stated before, rewards (PVE players) and unbalanced gear (competitive PVP players).

[Shuchin]

true in a way, but only if you do not care about the tactical, strategical and terrain aspect of battlegrounds. Which is why I think a gear balanced version of WWV would not be a bad idea nor redundant. ^_^