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1 hour ago, Shukran said:

sorry to crush your bubbles but  @Taikuya centered the points of the arguments, while @NN13 u achieved nothing to offer in discussion.

 

whales get things faster so they can do more things earler that earn them more money. but still the point "what they win at the end?" u didnt answered.

 

how can u win by purchasing HM skills? what are u winning?

 

u didnt give a objective definition of "win" of pay to win argument,

 

pve

 

owpve

 

pvp

 

 

these are the 3 ways to play the game.

give a definition of WINNING.

 

also, because everyone forget about it, u can convert  GOLD to HMcoins. HMcoins purchase you stuff. OFC slower than NCcoins. but still not an elitist , only real life money thing to buy.

 

EDIT: it doesnt mean i accept and like the whales in game.. but if u have to blame someone, blame NCsoft that allowed things to be purhcased with money, not whales that do it

And who made you the judge?

Man, stop giving yourself so much priority, you are no one.

 

I already answered the question, go read the thread. If getting more PP and loot in SSP, while denying low AP/free casual players of required upgrade materials isn't a win, what is?

 

As for converting gold to HM Coins and using those to buy the boxes - You do realize that buying boxes with HM Coins is limited per day while unlimited in case of NC Coins? Stop making excuses about HM Coins.

 

NCSoft totally made the game P2W, deny it all you want.

 

Edit - I read your post again. Did you just say that buying HM skills and HM ranks does not give you a huge advantage in Arena? You know what, I have nothing to say to you anymore.

Edited by NN13
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Doesn't matter. You spent real money on something, so that makes you pay-to-win, apparently. The fact that you can now kill Yeti a whole 2 seconds faster than some person you do not know who plays on

Just so you idiots complaining about someone spending money on this game know that them spending the money on the game means it lasts one day longer and we f2p people get to play one day longer. Also

My aren't we a rude fellow.  You do realize i am not winning anything out of the boxes right?. Pvp is equalized in arena. Can't really win at Pve.. Infinity tower no matter how good your gear is. If y

44 minutes ago, DomiSotto said:

No, what I would say is that they should introduce more measures to keep the gap between the maxed out gear and the reasonably obtainable gear narrower. For example, the current barrier getting the way outdated level 45 gear is completely unnecessary. A new and casual player needs to be streamlined better towards the entry-level end-game (level 50) gear by either eliminating some of the tiers or reducing costs dramatically or increasing the drops of the outdated mats.

 

Do we REALLY need two Oathbreaker steps costing 300+ soulstones combined?

Why is getting from Infernal to Siren is 29 gold per accessory and is actually more expensive than getting from Siren to Oathbreaker?

Moontears dropping at 2 per dungeon, are you kidding me?

 

If the current max gear is about 700-750 range, it should be painless to get to the 550-600 range. But as a casual player without the MADZ SKILLZ it so far took me 4 months to bring a character from ground zero to 540 AP, and I played lately far more than 2 hours a day I am comfortable with playing.

 

This is wrong. The guy who pays or plays like it's his job should have better stuff and prettier stuff, but NOT by the margin that makes a casual, the salt of the earth, the majority, to be irrelevant in comparison. I look at the Excel of the gearing ladder and tears start welling in my eyes. Because right now we actually have it good with the event that gives me 'a lot of' mats for 'only' four dungeons a day, every day. And I am still behind, behind and behind.... I come from a game when running 2 or 3 dungeons a week was enough to be well-geared for gods's sake. The change of pace and expectations are insane.

 

And the game should offer you a choice of playing what you WANT to play, not railroad you in running dungeons, dungeons and ten more dungeons, because everything else either doesn't pay or is gear-locked-out or deserted like Zai and Frostscale.

 

Other games made entry-level gear, alternative ways of obtaining gear and bolstering available. So, it's all doable, all possible, and all by far better than BnS stubborn insistence on the One Main  playing 3+ hrs a day or quit now while you are behind approach.

A few notable points here:

1. Your responses sound like you are talking about "questionable game design decisions", rather than P2W versus F2P players, which is what my comment was referring to.

 

2. It sounds like you are complaining about how long/hard it is to obtain end game gear. First of all, you don't need the best gear to do all the content in this game. The end game gear is hard to reach so that people who like working towards something long term, will actually have something to do.

 

3. Why do they need to introduce measures to help new and casual players? They are in fact doing this, but I don't see a need for it. I see people saying the game is dead, and how people who get to max level quit, because there is nothing else "run/do" besides running/doing the same dungeon over and over. And you are saying they need to make it so casual/new players can get to the "end game" quicker, so they can quit???

 

4. Your point about weapon upgrade costs etc. is more of a game design decision. They can design the game however they want, I have no comment there. I'm always confused and I don't understand why people assume if a game is released in the "western" region, it must have all these "made up" western attributes, such as catering to casual players and making it not feel like a grind to play. There are heaps of games out there, if you like a "casual" game, go play those (e.g. WoW). And if you like grindy games then play BNS. Why do people go to play a grindy game, and complain they don't want to play it because it is grindy? I don't get it.

 

5. I don't know what you mean by "it should be painless to get to 550-600 range". It sounds to me like you are comparing this game with another game that you played, and you are expecting it to have the same game design/decision/progression pace etc. This is a different game, and it will have different game designs/decisions.

 

6. Once again your comment about the pace of the game. What do you mean it is wrong? There is no right or wrong here. What if they intended to make this game feel "grindy" compared to other games, because they don't want this to be another casual game? Again... this is a game design decision and that's probably a whole other conversation itself. If you want to talk about this, you can go start a topic called "is it a good idea to release a grindy game in the western region".

 

7. Ok so you are saying it "should offer a choice". In the livestream the producer said they want people who play this game to experience everything, since everything is apart of BNS. So once again, if you don't agree with the "game design decisions", then you can go create a thread to discuss that.

 

8. Other games have entry level gear? Well yes, that is other games, not this game. Once again it is a game design decision.

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#2 is directly related to competitive content like SSP that is directly tied into gear upgrading. The player is expected to have access to soulstones to get OB weapon, for example, but the means of obtaining it is barred by other players whose gear is far higher than theirs. The P2W and the leet destroy the pretty cool segment of the game. It was not designed for these numbers.

 

#4 Games evolve. I saw other game(s) change in response to player requests, even BnS did a little. If you do not lobby for what you want, you'll never get it.I went to BnS because it did not have tab-targeting and 50+ skills. It plays with a remarkable ease, and the setting/art is oriental rather than the dwarves/elves/bows and ye Olde English Towne. I like BnS in principle, but what I want is for this game to attract more players like me, so I have folks to play with.

 

I am not a leet player, so I want what I want. An ability to play multiple classes without dead-ending the characters because of the gearing, having time to both keep my gear at a good enough level on whichever char I chose, and still have time to do things for fun, like playing Arenas, getting an outfit, leveling an alt or running through a dungeon with watching cutscenes.

 

The other day we could not skip Blackram cutscene, and I was surprised how long and elaborate it was. I have never watched a single cutscene in a single dungeon in this game after the first one left my character dead after it was over on the way to Poharan.

 

When having fun in a game becomes a luxury only allowable to a very few players, it's no good.

 

People who get to the max level and quit had their reasons.

 

My lowly peasant status on the gearing curve is not what holds me to BnS. I am partially attracted to its brutality and the fact that it makes you to utilize all you've got to get anywhere, be that skill, wits, outright cheating or credit card, but I think that it takes it too far, making attrition unnaturally high.

 

Is it P2W? If it cost 100$ rather than a 1000$ to have my gear set competitive in SSP on my char and has the HM skills unlocked, or the subscription reduced the hardships dramatically, and the only official way to get in-game gold for real money was not make me pay the leet to feed their consumption of the game and give them incentive to drive the rat race even crazier, but to pay the developer to support the game, I'd pay.

 

At a $1000 price tag, and paying it to the most obnoxious segment of the gamers, I see it as pay-to-lose.

 

I am happy that the in-game gold price is collapsing compared to the cost of the real money. It will hopefully drive both the extremist gamers and malicious criminals out making BnS a better game to be in. But it might be too late. The connection of the game-gold to real life currency is a bad idea that leads to no end of troubles from what I see in this game.

Edited by DomiSotto
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2 hours ago, NN13 said:

And who made you the judge?

Man, stop giving yourself so much priority, you are no one.

 

I already answered the question, go read the thread. If getting more PP and loot in SSP, while denying low AP/free casual players of required upgrade materials isn't a win, what is?

 

As for converting gold to HM Coins and using those to buy the boxes - You do realize that buying boxes with HM Coins is limited per day while unlimited in case of NC Coins? Stop making excuses about HM Coins.

 

NCSoft totally made the game P2W, deny it all you want.

 

Edit - I read your post again. Did you just say that buying HM skills and HM ranks does not give you a huge advantage in Arena? You know what, I have nothing to say to you anymore.

well u consider my words like i want to be cocky, that u forgot,again, to watch your writing...

 

you continue to say "advantage" which is not "winning" but who cares... you want to be right. 

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4 hours ago, Taikuya said:

Can you explain what you mean by winning?

Let say we compare a f2p player with your supposed 720 AP P2W player. For example, I currently have around 640 AP and I don't spend any real life money on chests that give you in-game items. However I played since launch and have spent quite a bit of time with this game (i.e. I am a F2P player).

1. For dungeons. what does a 720 AP P2W player have over me? They kill bosses a bit faster? And what does that achieve? Nothing.

 

2. For arena, what does a 720 AP P2W player have over me? If you were to say they get HM skills faster, lets go with that example for a second. They get it faster than me (might be hours/few days, but certainly not weeks faster. Even few days is a bit of a stretch) but I will eventually get it as well right? And then what does that mean? It means they have no advantage over me now... So they paid a large amount of money, to only get HM skills faster than me, so they can play arena faster than me by a few days, then we are even again? I would agree it is P2W if the IRL money accelerated their HM skills acquisition by months, but this is not true.

 

3. So you say they prevent me from killing Grindtooth. So what? How is this P2W? Why do people kill Grindtooth? I can just go farm something else, get the gold, and buy the moonstone/soulstone on Marketplace. We can achieve the same end result by taking different paths. If Grindtooth dropped exclusive gear, then I might agree that it is P2W, but he/she/it doesn't drop any exclusive gear...

 

4. Now for battleground for OWPVP. For this I agree that people who spend real money have an advantage, since they get good gear faster, and the gear plays an important role in fighting other players in battlegrounds/OWPVP. But what does this achieve? What does being able to beat people in battlegrounds and OWPVP achieve? If you say they can farm moonstones faster, then my response in point 3 applies here as well. Just go farm something else and use the gold to buy moonstones.

 

However if you are talking about, "I enjoy doing battleground/OWPVP for the fun of it, but P2W players are ruining it for me because they get good gear so much faster" then I agree with you somewhat that it is P2W. I say "somewhat" because what if you are a casual player, and someone else plays this game 15 hours a day (but they are F2P). Would you then argue that this game is not fair, and it doesn't cater for the casual player versus hardcore player? Would you say they should make battleground/OWPVP not gear dependent?

 

Personally I feel like I can have fun doing everything in this game that a P2W player is doing. I don't see how they are ruining my experience of the game. So therefore I don't think it is "P2W". They are just spending IRL money to buy gear, but that doesn't "win" them anything over a F2P player. Sure they have better gear, but that's about it. I don't see them "winning" here. Unless of course you are talking about some kind of "who can get the best gear fastest and showoff", then yes, they are winning that so called contest.

So you're entire argument is. "Not P2W because so what you can go kill mobs for 5000 hours if you want and buy stuff off the market you need" Very nice, a very valid argument.

It took you 5 paragraphs to say something so utterly stupid.

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34 minutes ago, Shukran said:

well u consider my words like i want to be cocky, that u forgot,again, to watch your writing...

 

you continue to say "advantage" which is not "winning" but who cares... you want to be right. 

Do you realize that the world is not binary? That it is not black and white? That it is not as simple as the definition of win and loss?

That advantage can be considered winning by quite a few people in this particular scenario?

Never mind if you do not understand or want to understand the above.

 

What do you call getting high PP and loot in SSP due to having high AP which was achieved by Trove and other P2W boxes? Not winning?

 

But then again, your world might be binary. Can't help you there.

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12 minutes ago, NN13 said:

Do you realize that the world is not binary? That it is not black and white? That it is not as simple as the definition of win and loss?

That advantage can be considered winning by quite a few people in this particular scenario?

Never mind if you do not understand or want to understand the above.

 

What do you call getting high PP and loot in SSP due to having high AP which was achieved by Trove and other P2W boxes? Not winning?

 

But then again, your world might be binary. Can't help you there.

I wouldn't even bother anymore they know it's absolutely P2W, just look at their arguments now. They have just degraded to "not P2W because you can't win an MMO" because well that's the only thing they can muster considering the game it hands down become P2W, you buy shit with real money you will be better at EVERY aspect of this game.

 

Do they realize that with enough P2W then that's what the game will eventually become for everything? New dungeons...sure buy a reset sure you can run it once F2P want to run it again, buy a $1 reset or better yet a "discounted" $10 bundle, please pay to do EVERYTHING in the game now.

 

But alas they will be blinded by their complete ignorance. Who even knows WHY they defend this garbage. I actually like the game, they must not because they don't realize the path that it has gone down and NO ONE wants to play a P2W MMO....NO ONE.

Edited by United17
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6 minutes ago, NN13 said:

What do you call getting high PP and loot in SSP due to having high AP which was achieved by Trove and other P2W boxes? Not winning?

The player actually has almost acknowledge that in respect to SSP the purchase of gold with the purpose to overgear the other players is constituting P2W. However, the poster later reverted his statement claiming that no game-income advantage is derived from winning over other players in SSP. The poster's position was to do something else instead that is not impacted by the gear differential and purchase the materials from the overgeared minority. After which, amusingly enough, the poster expressed agreement with the developers' position that every player in the game should experience every type of content in the game (including the OW PvP that is gear-locked-out).

 

In other words, the position of this poster is extremely self-contradictory and comes from a PoV of a player that likely does not do SSP, so is not directly and adversely impacted by the overgeared minority.

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20 hours ago, NotHereYet27 said:

Just so you idiots complaining about someone spending money on this game know that them spending the money on the game means it lasts one day longer and we f2p people get to play one day longer. Also who cares if someone spends money on a f2p game, are you that jealous? Who the hell cares how someone spends their own money? Answer: no one, except jealous people.

 

P.S. If spending money on a f2p game is stupid or unnecessary then so is spending money on stuff you don't need in real life but just want it.

This guy gets it.

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1 minute ago, KlausFlouride said:

This guy gets it.

Sort of but as someone with money I would much rather pay a monthly sub than have a p2w game. If someone can't afford $15 a month to play a game that is life. There are plenty of other things to do.

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2 minutes ago, GreenDestiny said:

Sort of but as someone with money I would much rather pay a monthly sub than have a p2w game. If someone can't afford $15 a month to play a game that is life. There are plenty of other things to do.

Exactly. I want to pay my money to the company. But the current way wants me to pay  to encourage the very people that ruin my gaming experience essentially sponsoring the playstyle I do not want to be propagated.

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21 hours ago, NotHereYet27 said:

Just so you idiots complaining about someone spending money on this game know that them spending the money on the game means it lasts one day longer and we f2p people get to play one day longer. Also who cares if someone spends money on a f2p game, are you that jealous? Who the hell cares how someone spends their own money? Answer: no one, except jealous people.

 

P.S. If spending money on a f2p game is stupid or unnecessary then so is spending money on stuff you don't need in real life but just want it.

Finally someone with a brain other then the orig poster.  Just because others cant afford it, they get angry, they play off the backs o the p2w people, i guess f2p kind of forgot that.   Also before someone goes off on me about that, im a half n half, i pay my sub, i may play with some boxes, otherwise i grind the crap out of dungs for money for the rest of my mats.  Most of the time im even in game i am afk doing rl stuff, So in order to keep up w/ the what i call "no lifers" who dont have money, friends or any kind of  life, who can sit here literally playing most of the day, which wll make you above most p2w people, thats fine. Kudos to you, but dont forget literally anyone who puts real cash on a game and you dont, they are paying for you.  Yea, i met some real uhm, jerks, who will ruin SSP, run so far in a dung, not let anyone catch up bc there AP is so damn high, those p2w disgust me.  I know a few also, who are nice as hell, who wait, help, and even wont bid on loot, bc they dont really need it.

16 hours ago, Kuronee said:

Actually did ssplains for the first time today on SF. It didn't really make a difference because that one or two ap gems i got.l Still missed out on one boar chest because couldn't get enough dps in time while other got it. Spending money doesn't magically give you a box. The issue with prestige is nice yes that does comes a bonus with higher ap but alot of of free players have true scorpion. Not everyone does plains for Prestige, most i see do it for the keys.


Realize that SF is mainly close combat with range. Of course can't use range only or else you wont get much prestige have to be mainly in Kungfu stance. My Point being even though payers can still get more then me if they are range or know close combat better then me.  I am used to playing range classes. I generally do ssplains on my Warlock.

 

Finally like the point out yes i bought boxes for the AP gem and yes i regret, but dont think i just pay my way to DPS only and suck at my class. That i just sit around and do nothing. I do farm pve for my stingers and gold.

 

Now lets get back on track with the topic of the video please and not derail it anymore with P2W talk. Rather not have it closed down for it.   My rng Raito seemed to be 1 gem out of 100 boxes. Has anyone else gotten any luck with the boxes?

I feel sorry for your RNG, but thanks for the video!!  I opened 50, got 2 purple gems and 3 glasses, tho sucks i dont have enuf alts and cant disassemble them for fabric, which would be cool, since we did pay for them.  I also opened like 3-5 at a time, just because im superstitious and it seemed to work good for me  :)

15 hours ago, Emma Frost said:

Ignore all the moaning bitches here. Thanks for the video, it helped me get a good idea of what the RNG is like for the boxes

Yep, yep, thats all i think he was showing too. But i think rng works better as others do it the same time. I am probably wrong, but my rng in this game has been damn nice :)

6 hours ago, triplethreat said:

Hopefully the F2P people know that players who pay money for these events help keep the servers running so they can play for free, right?

 

I've never understood why people care so much about what other people spend their own money on. It's their money, they can spend it however they want.

 

I also don't get the F2P players who scream you're wasting your money on a game.  Consider it an entertainment expense. So I spend $50 on RNG boxes(which I haven't yet, and probably won't since the loot is just meh) and I play the game for 3 or 4 more months, I get a good chunk of time out of my $50. Now, the people who say it's a waste of money go out to the bar on a Saturday night and spend $50. They get to enjoy their $50 of alcohol for what? 5, maybe 6 hours? So, which is the smartest way to spend your money for entertainment purposes?

yep, exactly, that 20 buck movie lasted a few hours, the game for give or take same lasts a lot longer.  But i do understand, in a way, because some p2w people are just mean jerks, because they bought high, and ruin it and will try and demoralize someone bc they dont buy as much or at all.

 

I got some people in my clan, who supposedly dont buy, but they can be here longer, they got about my AP, im jealous, why? Because i cant sit here so long and play, tho i would like more then 2-3hours per day, where half is afk and other half rushing dungs.  But in the end, sorry us buyers/wallet warriors/whales/p2w whatever childish whinny baby names you want to make up, pay for you non payers to play, end of story.  I also would prefer a p2p and make all work for the rest, and only thing you can super buy is a sexy costume or skins and such.

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10 hours ago, United17 said:

Ummm really? To give to friends, guildies your mom? If it was INTENDED the keys would simply be trade able......I mean seriously bro do you even think before you type?

Do you?

 

I've illustrated a way that f2p can and did obtain keys during the treasure trove event and you are just going to pretend it didn't happen because you think it was not intended? Wow.

 

As you seem incapable of having an adult discussion about a topic without resorting to insults and name calling, I'm out now. 

2 hours ago, TaeHwaRang said:

Where is my popcorn

I hope you like a lot of salt on that popcorn!

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i buy today 7 boxes and i lucky and only see 1 silverfrost transformation stone. 10 soulstones, and 5 elements to lvl up accesory and weapon, in fact is ~20gold if calculate from CTRL+C of price i spend 700hm ~ = 100gold, rmg = 0, 1 rng on game was great 1 box cost 49hm and was superb, and last 2-3 was 0

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On 7/6/2016 at 4:40 PM, Kuronee said:

Not Expecting many happy  or nice comments here or even likes on the video. Though i upload it for fun. Enjoy the video if you want a list ill make one but it should be pretty obvious what i got

Is the Amethyst "unable to trade" just like the Aquamarine and Peridot?

 

Edit: Nevermind. I found my answer.

Edited by Sanjhiyan
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On 7/7/2016 at 7:36 PM, Reaper00 said:

You know there are a lot of free players with 690+ AP right? 

I really don't think so. At this point, if a 660-670 AP player with the hexagonal gem came up to me and said they never spent a single cent on the game, only religiously played BnS everyday, I would believe them. And even in that bracket there are many many players who do spend. 

 

But 690 AP is too high and too far to consider as purely F2P even with another alt who can do all current purple dungeons even at this point of the game. 690 AP= someone with near maxed - maxed accessories with legendary weapon and those crazy flawless sparkling gems. I do not think you can just purely grind yourself up that point at least for now.

 

I know this because I do play it everyday with two characters and I give everything my alt earns to my main. I also only spend money on name changing, race changing, look alteration vouchers, and outfits. I did spend some leftover ncoins one time opening a few silverfrost chests but all I got was 200 soulstones. That's not really much nowadays. If ever it only spared me 2-3 hours of farming in ssp.

 

Chances are, if you see someone with > 680 AP, hands down that player definitely spent money to progress.

Edited by Rokusan
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12 hours ago, GreenDestiny said:

This game is P2W, even google knows it so stop arguing.

 

e63CDnh.jpg

Hilarious

 

Sad thing is even if they did decide to start using their brains the damage is done.

Edited by United17
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