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7 minutes ago, NN13 said:

Except you are the one basing your arguments on your opinion. It IS ENTIRELY YOUR opinion if you think that players with 720 AP does not affect others in open world bosses like SSP.

 

United17 has already stated that he/she would welcome a 720AP player in Yeti run, but the problem arises when I or he/she has to compete with that said player in SSP.

 

I do not see you acknowledging that part. So, don't talk about logic and fact when you are not even willing to accept a problem and want to keep babbling about how you are right and others are not.

raise the health of all bosses, make all attacks go to range ( as you wanted in all  your complaints about this matter )

Edited by 882184_1452550488

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NN13   
5 minutes ago, 882184_1452550488 said:

NN13 just make them put a bolster then, raise everyone up to equal gear then ;) like 750 ap, 220 cdmg and 5700 criticial, raise the health of the bosses to 150 mil, oh and make all melee classes can swap to range during that time too

That's actually a nice idea. I am up for it. Make it happen.

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6 minutes ago, NN13 said:

That's actually a nice idea. I am up for it. Make it happen.

yeah i agree they should do that, make it even more causal in the place as melee.. im playing KFM done it since launch i got loot everytime im there :P you played bm right? my friend with 433 ap gets it too everytime, and we are on a server with heavy populated crimson with only range toons.. one more thing can you stick to one thread about your complaints how melee are so bad in ssp and the classes are bad in that place?

instead you go to every thread and make your complaints about same thing over and over and over, whats the point of it?

Edited by 882184_1452550488

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NN13   
57 minutes ago, 882184_1452550488 said:

yeah i agree they should do that, make it even more causal in the place as melee.. im playing KFM done it since launch i got loot everytime im there :P you played bm right? my friend with 433 ap gets it too everytime, and we are on a server with heavy populated crimson with only range toons.. 

I can show you a video with 35+ people and me, lagging and not getting loot. Can you or your friend show me a video of you getting a loot from boar with 35+ people around?

 

Also, do not put words in my mouth. I have not even once described about Melee vs Ranged in this thread till now. You are the one who did it.

Show me one post before this in this thread where I complained about melee vs ranged. I dare you.

Edited by NN13

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Reaper00   
12 minutes ago, NN13 said:

Except you are the one basing your arguments on your opinion. It IS ENTIRELY YOUR opinion if you think that players with 720 AP does not affect others in open world bosses like SSP.

Actually, you are the one misunderstanding things I'm afraid. This discussion isn't about AP and the effect that AP has on others. It's about how those people got that AP. Yes it's a fact that 720 AP people are at SSP making it harder for low AP people to get pp.  What is not a fact is that those 720 AP people all got there by spending real money. Neither of you have presented anything vaguely related to a fact to back that up and have failed to acknowledge that it is perfectly possible for someone to have 700+ AP without spending any real life money.

 

What you are also failing to acknowledge is that a new freshly minted level 50 would have that exact same problem at SSP even if all the other people at SSP had the same AP and HM level as you currently have. But most of the people complaining about p2w don't seem to mind that so much. Apparently someone having a lot more AP than them is a problem, while someone have a lot less than them is just fine. If a level 50 HM 1 person with 350AP came onto the forum to complain about not being able to get pp or loot from SSP you would all rush to tell them to gear up first and then come back, but if a 700+ AP person tells you to do that then it's "OMG p2w elitism!"

 

And lol about the babbling about how I am right and you are wrong. And you are doing what exactly? Hypocrite much?

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NN13   
43 minutes ago, Reaper00 said:

Actually, you are the one misunderstanding things I'm afraid. This discussion isn't about AP and the effect that AP has on others. It's about how those people got that AP. Yes it's a fact that 720 AP people are at SSP making it harder for low AP people to get pp.  What is not a fact is that those 720 AP people all got there by spending real money. Neither of you have presented anything vaguely related to a fact to back that up and have failed to acknowledge that it is perfectly possible for someone to have 700+ AP without spending any real life money.

 

What you are also failing to acknowledge is that a new freshly minted level 50 would have that exact same problem at SSP even if all the other people at SSP had the same AP and HM level as you currently have. But most of the people complaining about p2w don't seem to mind that so much. Apparently someone having a lot more AP than them is a problem, while someone have a lot less than them is just fine. If a level 50 HM 1 person with 350AP came onto the forum to complain about not being able to get pp or loot from SSP you would all rush to tell them to gear up first and then come back, but if a 700+ AP person tells you to do that then it's "OMG p2w elitism!"

 

And lol about the babbling about how I am right and you are wrong. And you are doing what exactly? Hypocrite much?

Are you sure that 720AP players are not the one that have spend quite some cash on Trove? Do you have data to support such claim?

 

Because as far as my server goes, people over 700AP are always, 100% of the times paying players. Yes, there are people with Legendary now, but 700+ AP and a free player? I doubt that. And if there is such a player, then I have respect for him/her. He/she has worked very hard to get there.

 

But most, if not all, with Stage 3 and loads of Hongmoon gems are paying players. And that happened due to these type of events. Deny it if you want, but all of us know that is the truth.

 

Yes, I acknowledge that a fresh level 50 will have serious problems in SSP and no, I will not tell him or her to get better gear, because unlike NCSoft, I do not say "Just buy Moonstone from Market", especially, when you need it in hundreds and you can get like 4 every hour on an average(including 5-MS, 5-Keys, 0-keys, No loot from boars).

I would still blame NCSoft for rushing the contents yet not lowering the upgrade requirements. But that is entirely a different topic.

 

However, when people with a bit high ping(150-200) and a melee character with 550AP fail to get loot from Boar because it melted in 15 seconds, there is a problem.

I am not saying that P2W legendaries are the only problem, but they are a part of it nonetheless.

The problem roots from a select few having so much power that they get richer and other F2P as well as Premium users get left behind and get even poorer.

The bigger problem, however, is how there are 10 people doing mining phase and magically, 50 people appear during Konta and Boars.

 

Edit -

Also, as I have said in another thread, this game's design is one of the worst.

Developers said in a livestream that SSP is the untra-end-end-game. What they did not acknowledge is that the materials to upgrade our gear to play that ultra-end-end-game, comes from that ultra-end-end-game.

Talk about Paradox.

Believe me, I would not have complained if we had other sources of Moonstones except SSP and Battlegrounds, both of which requires very good gears.

Edited by NN13

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Reaper00   
1 hour ago, NN13 said:

Are you sure that 720AP players are not the one that have spend quite some cash on Trove? Do you have data to support such claim?

Because as far as my server goes, people over 700AP are always, 100% of the times paying players.

Do you have data to support what you are saying? 100% of the people on your server? How do you know that? Did they submit their credit card statements to you for scrutiny? Did you hack the server and check their purchase history? Just because you believe something does not make it true.

 

While I'm certain that the majority of 700+ AP people did spend cash to get where they are, not all of them did. You do know that people could buy the trove keys with HM coins and could even buy more keys with gold (through a trusted 3rd party)? My proof that f2p players were doing this is the number of shouts in faction and region chat with people asking too buy or sell them at the time. And there's also the fact that I personally sold some myself. It's the same with this event. You keep calling these events pay to win while conveniently forgetting that there are ways for free players to get the same things too. They just have to put in a bit more effort.

 

There are several people in my clan who are at around 700AP and HM 11 who got there without spending real money. How did they do that? They ran 4 man yeti and later on Asura for several weeks with clan mates/ friends and sold the skill books and Asura embers for gold. They were making around 800G per person on average a day doing that.

 

Sure they were doing it non-stop for 6 to 12 hours a day, but this is a f2p game so if you want to get ahead before everyone else you either invest time or money. If you do not want to do either of those and still expect to be among the type tier before the majority of the population, then maybe the f2p genre is not for you.

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NN13   
11 minutes ago, Reaper00 said:

Do you have data to support what you are saying? 100% of the people on your server? How do you know that? Did they submit their credit card statements to you for scrutiny? Did you hack the server and check their purchase history? Just because you believe something does not make it true.

 

While I'm certain that the majority of 700+ AP people did spend cash to get where they are, not all of them did. You do know that people could buy the trove keys with HM coins and could even buy more keys with gold (through a trusted 3rd party)? My proof that f2p players were doing this is the number of shouts in faction and region chat with people asking too buy or sell them at the time. And there's also the fact that I personally sold some myself. It's the same with this event. You keep calling these events pay to win while conveniently forgetting that there are ways for free players to get the same things too. They just have to put in a bit more effort.

 

There are several people in my clan who are at around 700AP and HM 11 who got there without spending real money. How did they do that? They ran 4 man yeti and later on Asura for several weeks with clan mates/ friends and sold the skill books and Asura embers for gold. They were making around 800G per person on average a day doing that.

 

Sure they were doing it non-stop for 6 to 12 hours a day, but this is a f2p game so if you want to get ahead before everyone else you either invest time or money. If you do not want to do either of those and still expect to be among the type tier before the majority of the population, then maybe the f2p genre is not for you.

Read again - " But most, if not all, with Stage 3 and loads of Hongmoon gems are paying players. "

 

Also, I don't need CC staement to know that a person payed quite a lot of money for boxes when he/she has all the Hongmoon Hexagonal gems on his/her weapon. Quite obvious.

And every single player I have seen till now who has over 700AP has all those gems. Every single colour. Be it in my own server or X-Server. And I am not even counting those who have only 1 or even 2 of the Hongmoon Hexagonal gems.

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NN13   
16 minutes ago, Reaper00 said:

while conveniently forgetting that there are ways for free players to get the same things too. They just have to put in a bit more effort.

Also, about this. No there was not. Buying the boxes from F10 was limited to 1 per day for HM coins users while NC Coins users could buy it infinitely. Same goes for Trove. Number of keys per day were limited for HM coin users.

Now, people may have bypassed that by trading the keys, but that was not what NCSoft intended. There was absolutely no reason to limit the HM Coins user, was there? Unless of course, NCSoft wanted to force people to spend money.

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United17   
3 hours ago, Piper said:

Tera has the same reputation as BnS for being a trash asian P2W grind. I've never played it so I couldn't say for sure - just pointing out it has the same reputation. But that bad rep means I won't touch it. You're right about SWTOR (which is a breath of fresh air after playing this mess). The player base would revolt if EA tried this garbage.

 

What I find incredibly funny is the people jumping in saying these boxes aren't P2W at all since the gem doesn't really do anything. If this is true then people are spending hundreds of dollars on something that does nothing. Nothing. How insane is that?

 

This whole game is just kooky.

Umm no? There's inner armor that you can buy that provides a VERY small stat boost...that is readily available for you to buy from people selling it. Not paticularly grindy either. New gear came out a month ago have 5 characters in the 2nd highest tier of gear, the top gear is just a luxury. Best part is I can easily farm tokens to buy gear for whoever I want to gear next. Easily I might remind you like 3-4 days. Not 3-4 months llike this garbage.....well 3-4 months unless you swipe that card then it is exponentially easier.

 

Star Wars no P2W you're right and they know better. The players there would tear them a new ass if they tried just a lil tiny bit of what NC does here.

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Reaper00   
7 minutes ago, NN13 said:

Read again - " But most, if not all, with Stage 3 and loads of Hongmoon gems are paying players. "

 

Also, I don't need CC staement to know that a person payed quite a lot of money for boxes when he/she has all the Hongmoon Hexagonal gems on his/her weapon. Quite obvious.

And every single player I have seen till now who has over 700AP has all those gems. Every single colour. Be it in my own server or X-Server. And I am not even counting those who have only 1 or even 2 of the Hongmoon Hexagonal gems.

Those gems were also available through the marketplace (the tradeable versions) and using gold to buy the keys as I've said above, so again that is just your opinion and not fact.

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Reaper00   
8 minutes ago, NN13 said:

Now, people may have bypassed that by trading the keys, but that was not what NCSoft intended. 

Really? Why would they be giftable then?

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NN13   
3 minutes ago, Reaper00 said:

Those gems were also available through the marketplace (the tradeable versions) and using gold to buy the keys as I've said above, so again that is just your opinion and not fact.

Not all of them were.

And about opinion and not being fact, whatever you are saying is also opinion. There is no fact until and unless either of us can prove it, which neither of us can. So, stop trying to sound like you are talking about fact.

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NN13   

Now, I think we have derailed this thread more than necessary and therefore, I will just stop with this debate.

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United17   
3 minutes ago, Reaper00 said:

Those gems were also available through the marketplace (the tradeable versions) and using gold to buy the keys as I've said above, so again that is just your opinion and not fact.

Ofc it's a fact you could only buy unlimited keys with Ncoin. I'm starting to think you're just a noob by your reality and you weren't even around for the things we're talking about.

Also go in-game and show me the market listing where I can buy an Aquamarine for gold pls?

5 minutes ago, Reaper00 said:

Really? Why would they be giftable then?

Ummm really? To give to friends, guildies your mom? If it was INTENDED the keys would simply be trade able......I mean seriously bro do you even think before you type?

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Reaper00   
3 minutes ago, NN13 said:

Not all of them were.

And about opinion and not being fact, whatever you are saying is also opinion. There is no fact until and unless either of us can prove it, which neither of us can. So, stop trying to sound like you are talking about fact.

No it wasn't. I bought and sold a large number of trove keys during the event. Not sure how that could be an opinion instead of a fact. 

 

And why are you having a go at me about opinions and facts? None of your posts had a disclaimer on it saying it was only your personal opinion so why do mine have to?

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Greetings,

 

This is a friendly reminder of our  Code of Conduct and to keep posts civil and on topic.

 

Please refrain from attacking each other and derailing this thread any further. 

 

Team Blade & Soul

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Taikuya   
13 hours ago, United17 said:

Good so you said it. It is P2W, glad my point was driven home. I'm done here, if I can only reach out to one tiny mind Ive done my job.

I would welcome a 720 ap to kill Yeti with me lil ignorant buddy!

However do I welcome P2W making Battlegrounds unplayable for anything but whales...nope.

Do I welcome a 720 AP summoner (or multiple 720ap Summoners) killing Grindtooth before I get 3 shots in...nope.

Do I welcome 720 AP 3 shotting me for my 300 prestige that took me 45 min to build up...nope.

 

So once again you fail! Try again? I'm sure I'll easily dismantle anything you put forth. Which is very easily done when I'm right and you're SO wrong.

Can you explain what you mean by winning?

Let say we compare a f2p player with your supposed 720 AP P2W player. For example, I currently have around 640 AP and I don't spend any real life money on chests that give you in-game items. However I played since launch and have spent quite a bit of time with this game (i.e. I am a F2P player).

1. For dungeons. what does a 720 AP P2W player have over me? They kill bosses a bit faster? And what does that achieve? Nothing.

 

2. For arena, what does a 720 AP P2W player have over me? If you were to say they get HM skills faster, lets go with that example for a second. They get it faster than me (might be hours/few days, but certainly not weeks faster. Even few days is a bit of a stretch) but I will eventually get it as well right? And then what does that mean? It means they have no advantage over me now... So they paid a large amount of money, to only get HM skills faster than me, so they can play arena faster than me by a few days, then we are even again? I would agree it is P2W if the IRL money accelerated their HM skills acquisition by months, but this is not true.

 

3. So you say they prevent me from killing Grindtooth. So what? How is this P2W? Why do people kill Grindtooth? I can just go farm something else, get the gold, and buy the moonstone/soulstone on Marketplace. We can achieve the same end result by taking different paths. If Grindtooth dropped exclusive gear, then I might agree that it is P2W, but he/she/it doesn't drop any exclusive gear...

 

4. Now for battleground for OWPVP. For this I agree that people who spend real money have an advantage, since they get good gear faster, and the gear plays an important role in fighting other players in battlegrounds/OWPVP. But what does this achieve? What does being able to beat people in battlegrounds and OWPVP achieve? If you say they can farm moonstones faster, then my response in point 3 applies here as well. Just go farm something else and use the gold to buy moonstones.

 

However if you are talking about, "I enjoy doing battleground/OWPVP for the fun of it, but P2W players are ruining it for me because they get good gear so much faster" then I agree with you somewhat that it is P2W. I say "somewhat" because what if you are a casual player, and someone else plays this game 15 hours a day (but they are F2P). Would you then argue that this game is not fair, and it doesn't cater for the casual player versus hardcore player? Would you say they should make battleground/OWPVP not gear dependent?

 

Personally I feel like I can have fun doing everything in this game that a P2W player is doing. I don't see how they are ruining my experience of the game. So therefore I don't think it is "P2W". They are just spending IRL money to buy gear, but that doesn't "win" them anything over a F2P player. Sure they have better gear, but that's about it. I don't see them "winning" here. Unless of course you are talking about some kind of "who can get the best gear fastest and showoff", then yes, they are winning that so called contest.

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NN13   
51 minutes ago, Reaper00 said:

No it wasn't. I bought and sold a large number of trove keys during the event. Not sure how that could be an opinion instead of a fact. 

 

And why are you having a go at me about opinions and facts? None of your posts had a disclaimer on it saying it was only your personal opinion so why do mine have to?

I am not the one who started the opinion vs fact debate. You selling keys may be fact, but that was not what you were referring to when you started the debate of fact and opinion.

You were the one who said the other user was not stating facts, implying that you were. But neither were you. You did not have any statistical data, neither did the other user.

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NN13   
12 minutes ago, Taikuya said:

Can you explain what you mean by winning?

Let say we compare a f2p player with your supposed 720 AP P2W player. For example, I currently have around 640 AP and I don't spend any real life money on chests that give you in-game items. However I played since launch and have spent quite a bit of time with this game (i.e. I am a F2P player).

1. For dungeons. what does a 720 AP P2W player have over me? They kill bosses a bit faster? And what does that achieve? Nothing.

 

2. For arena, what does a 720 AP P2W player have over me? If you were to say they get HM skills faster, lets go with that example for a second. They get it faster than me (might be hours/few days, but certainly not weeks faster. Even few days is a bit of a stretch) but I will eventually get it as well right? And then what does that mean? It means they have no advantage over me now... So they paid a large amount of money, to only get HM skills faster than me, so they can play arena faster than me by a few days, then we are even again? I would agree it is P2W if the IRL money accelerated their HM skills acquisition by months, but this is not true.

 

3. So you say they prevent me from killing Grindtooth. So what? How is this P2W? Why do people kill Grindtooth? I can just go farm something else, get the gold, and buy the moonstone/soulstone on Marketplace. We can achieve the same end result by taking different paths. If Grindtooth dropped exclusive gear, then I might agree that it is P2W, but he/she/it doesn't drop any exclusive gear...

 

4. Now for battleground for OWPVP. For this I agree that people who spend real money have an advantage, since they get good gear faster, and the gear plays an important role in fighting other players in battlegrounds/OWPVP. But what does this achieve? What does being able to beat people in battlegrounds and OWPVP achieve? If you say they can farm moonstones faster, then my response in point 3 applies here as well. Just go farm something else and use the gold to buy moonstones.

 

However if you are talking about, "I enjoy doing battleground/OWPVP for the fun of it, but P2W players are ruining it for me because they get good gear so much faster" then I agree with you somewhat that it is P2W. I say "somewhat" because what if you are a casual player, and someone else plays this game 15 hours a day (but they are F2P). Would you then argue that this game is not fair, and it doesn't cater for the casual player versus hardcore player? Would you say they should make battleground/OWPVP not gear dependent?

 

Personally I feel like I can have fun doing everything in this game that a P2W player is doing. I don't see how they are ruining my experience of the game. So therefore I don't think it is "P2W". They are just spending IRL money to buy gear, but that doesn't "win" them anything over a F2P player. Sure they have better gear, but that's about it. I don't see them "winning" here. Unless of course you are talking about some kind of "who can get the best gear fastest and showoff", then yes, they are winning that so called contest.

Point 1 - The first thing you people say to defend these P2W events is DUNGEONS. No one said you win in Dungeons. Stop the non-sense argument.

 

Point 2 - Not actively winning. But more boxes = more materials = more gold = HM skills. And we all know what difference can HM skills make. Also, do not forget the amount of XP charms you get from these boxes. More skill points = better chance of winning, for most classes if not all.

 

Point 3 - You just re-iterated what NCSoft said in their livestreams - Buy for Market. Except, please go check the MS price and then calculate the amount of gold needed to upgrade your gear. That is insane.

Also, players not being able to enjoy a major part of game, just because NCSoft thought it is a good idea to release all contents in 4 months and then make it up by RNG P2W boxes is totally fine, right?

But then again, I should talk about game design on BnS forums...Sorry, nvm.

 

Point 4 - Refer to point 3 as well.

 

The only way someone can even get close to those buying RNG boxes are hardcore farmers. But then again, I can not complain, because apparently, playing 6 hours each and every day is normal in BnS.

And don't give me the BS that this is Korean MMO. NCSoft is supposed to freaking localise it for western players. If I wanted to play the Korean grind game, I would play the Japanese or Chinese version with ENG mod and much better ping.

 

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Shukran   

sorry to crush your bubbles but  @Taikuya centered the points of the arguments, while @NN13 u achieved nothing to offer in discussion.

 

whales get things faster so they can do more things earler that earn them more money. but still the point "what they win at the end?" u didnt answered.

 

how can u win by purchasing HM skills? what are u winning?

 

u didnt give a objective definition of "win" of pay to win argument,

 

pve

 

owpve

 

pvp

 

 

these are the 3 ways to play the game.

give a definition of WINNING.

 

also, because everyone forget about it, u can convert  GOLD to HMcoins. HMcoins purchase you stuff. OFC slower than NCcoins. but still not an elitist , only real life money thing to buy.

 

EDIT: it doesnt mean i accept and like the whales in game.. but if u have to blame someone, blame NCsoft that allowed things to be purhcased with money, not whales that do it

Edited by Shukran

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i always hate these kind of posts/videos showing off and opening cash boxes, i'm not talking just in BnS i'm talking in general, in any game cuz this is like a needle in my back as a free player things i will never be able to do.. so why watch and Torture myself for knowing that i will never get to spam boxes and show off..

only BnS would be happy here or u if u get what u need, but i don't need to know about it.

anyways good luck p.s i didnt watch it so at least i hope u got what u wanted since u paid for it.

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Hopefully the F2P people know that players who pay money for these events help keep the servers running so they can play for free, right?

 

I've never understood why people care so much about what other people spend their own money on. It's their money, they can spend it however they want.

 

I also don't get the F2P players who scream you're wasting your money on a game.  Consider it an entertainment expense. So I spend $50 on RNG boxes(which I haven't yet, and probably won't since the loot is just meh) and I play the game for 3 or 4 more months, I get a good chunk of time out of my $50. Now, the people who say it's a waste of money go out to the bar on a Saturday night and spend $50. They get to enjoy their $50 of alcohol for what? 5, maybe 6 hours? So, which is the smartest way to spend your money for entertainment purposes?

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1 hour ago, Taikuya said:

However if you are talking about, "I enjoy doing battleground/OWPVP for the fun of it, but P2W players are ruining it for me because they get good gear so much faster" then I agree with you somewhat that it is P2W. I say "somewhat" because what if you are a casual player, and someone else plays this game 15 hours a day (but they are F2P). Would you then argue that this game is not fair, and it doesn't cater for the casual player versus hardcore player? Would you say they should make battleground/OWPVP not gear dependent?

No, what I would say is that they should introduce more measures to keep the gap between the maxed out gear and the reasonably obtainable gear narrower. For example, the current barrier getting the way outdated level 45 gear is completely unnecessary. A new and casual player needs to be streamlined better towards the entry-level end-game (level 50) gear by either eliminating some of the tiers or reducing costs dramatically or increasing the drops of the outdated mats.

 

Do we REALLY need two Oathbreaker steps costing 300+ soulstones combined?

Why is getting from Infernal to Siren is 29 gold per accessory and is actually more expensive than getting from Siren to Oathbreaker?

Moontears dropping at 2 per dungeon, are you kidding me?

 

If the current max gear is about 700-750 range, it should be painless to get to the 550-600 range. But as a casual player without the MADZ SKILLZ it so far took me 4 months to bring a character from ground zero to 540 AP, and I played lately far more than 2 hours a day I am comfortable with playing.

 

This is wrong. The guy who pays or plays like it's his job should have better stuff and prettier stuff, but NOT by the margin that makes a casual, the salt of the earth, the majority, to be irrelevant in comparison. I look at the Excel of the gearing ladder and tears start welling in my eyes. Because right now we actually have it good with the event that gives me 'a lot of' mats for 'only' four dungeons a day, every day. And I am still behind, behind and behind.... I come from a game when running 2 or 3 dungeons a week was enough to be well-geared for gods's sake. The change of pace and expectations are insane.

 

And the game should offer you a choice of playing what you WANT to play, not railroad you in running dungeons, dungeons and ten more dungeons, because everything else either doesn't pay or is gear-locked-out or deserted like Zai and Frostscale.

 

Other games made entry-level gear, alternative ways of obtaining gear and bolstering available. So, it's all doable, all possible, and all by far better than BnS stubborn insistence on the One Main  playing 3+ hrs a day or quit now while you are behind approach.

Edited by DomiSotto

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