AUTO detonate is much better than Burn build

[LxP]

On 04/07/2016 at 8:30 AM, lcranger said:

This is for exp Fm players just explaining why Auto detonate is better and if not at least the same as burn build.

Note: only for none-legendary players because i don't have one and i dont know how fast the cdr would trigger

 

OK I have always been using burn build back in TW server but since the last big patch where they changed a shit ton on FM, I found out auto-detonate became another choice and far better than burn build actually from my own experience.

 

I have never been out damaged by burn build FM unless they have 100 AP more than me. I always got the aggro and when my friends duo with other FM they always take down boss slower (looking at the enrage timer mostly tested on 4 man lair and yeti)

 

here is how you skill it:

LBM-Tier 5 stage 1

RMB-Tier 3 stage 2

fire fury(F)-Tier 3

Meteor(V)-Tier 3

Short fuse(C)-Tier 3 stage 2

Force blast(1)-Tier 3 stage 3

windstorm(F)-Tier 2 stage 1  note: I have seen so many Fms not using this shit while boss is being grappled/grabbed/gripped like. just fking use it same thing for burn build anyway

Dual dragons(F)-Tier 3 stage 1

Blazing Beam(2)-Tier 3 stage 3 go Tier 5 stage 3 if you can.

 

pretty much same thing from burn build but you try to stack as many embers as you can, if you have so many skill points you can even put 2 points in Z wild fire.

 

so why use this build, the main reason is because your LBM crit gives you 1 FLAME ORBIT and when you have 3 you can cast Dragon blaze.

DRAGONBLAZE is so op because:

1-reduce your biggest damage METEORSHOWER(V) CD by 3 seconds.(that shit does crazy damage while target is burning do not ever use it if you cant have the target burning) 

2-Increase your FLAME DAMAGE THAT APPLIES TO ALL YOUR SHIT(3.99%)

3-good damage skill does more than your main spamming skill (2). 

Another very important reason is the BLEED effect from Dual dragons. that debuff is so fcking op go check it out test it out yourself, IF YOU are going to duo a dungeon or SOLO one , keep 5 bleed stacks up is actually far more important than you imagine because it is not easy to keep 5 stacks up if you do not help your teamate (for example i always duo with summoner to 2 man most of the dungeons and everytime we keep the bleed debuff up perfectly shit die way faster)

Note: your C also applies bleed so time them right with your partner

 

About the Tier 5 stage 2 LBM:

Here is one problem that auto-detonate will have that the damage WILL NEVER crit but the extra flame damage Tier 5 stage 2 provide will. But unless you have like 90% crit rate its not big difference really because all your other skills will make up and beyond that little damage.

 

key to play this build:

1-you should still ALWAYS ALWAYS keep the burning buff up, you do it by chaining your X C and when those are on CD you have to do it carefully by STOP YOUR LBM but keep spamming your RMB and use 1 when target has 5 stacks. SO HOW TO GET TARGET TO 5 STACKS WITHOUT DETONATE IT, very easy like i mentioned before YOU WILL BE SPAMMING YOUR dragon blaze/Dual dragon all the time once you know the burning debufff is going to run out and you have your F up, use it while you stop using LBM but keep spamming your RMB and use 1 and there you go burning buff up 100% of the time.

2-SHIT situation when Burn is going to run out, you have no dual or blaze, THIs is where fire fury comes in, quickly stacks ember without detonate it and use 1 while keep pressing RMB fire fury actually does decent damage while skilled in tier 3.

3-keep spamming your *cricket* V do not let it go waste like if you have blaze and meteor up use meteor first then blaze to get that 3sec cd reduction but make sure target is under burn debuff though

4-keep spamming your blaze and dual dragon

5-HOW TO PLAY WITH ANOTHER FM in party:

    -Chain the burn by seperating your C X with him and if all on CD go back to tip 1 and 2 above

    -If you are playing with a burn build FM its actually super good, his ember will not go waste and the burn is always up anyway so he lose no damage, actually buffs his damage too cuz he does not need to waste time to use 1 to get burn going. only RETARDS think its bad to have auto-detonate in group with burn build.

 

This build requires you to be highly skilled and focused and have fair amount of skill points 

Here is everything I can think of so far, give me your thought and correct me if I'm wrong 

 

 

 

 

 

my friend i'm so agree with you, autodetonate + 3x skill with burn, so it's fine ^^

[Racingwind]

11 hours ago, LxP said:

my friend i'm so agree with you, autodetonate + 3x skill with burn, so it's fine ^^

In theory it may be "fine", but I'm afraid in practice it is not.

[LxP]

well in pratice you just need to stop lmb for 5 stack then et voilà ;) another burn during 9 s

[Racingwind]

1 hour ago, LxP said:

well in pratice you just need to stop lmb for 5 stack then et voilà ;) another burn during 9 s

First of all, impact burn is only 6s. Second, there is no skill that gives 9s burn. And third, as pointed out already, stopping just before 5 stacks is very hard, with more than 1 FM.

 

[LxP]

i was speaking of the stun skill...

very hard? well u just need practice...

 

 

[Racingwind]

9 hours ago, LxP said:

i was speaking of the stun skill...

very hard? well u just need practice...

Please enlighten me which FM skill stuns AND gives a 9 second burn. I have already told you that there are NO skill that gives a 9 second burn, short fuse gives 10 second, which is the closest.

 

I think before you practice this in a public group, you should first practice by yourself, since you seem to like to solo things.

[LxP]

short fuse 10sec > but u never saw the number 10 bc at the impact it's writen 9...

 

why are you the rage kid that nobody like? useless comment everytime... i think you are the kind of guy who blame other fm in every dongeon right?

 

dude, try it on your own

[SoulsHunter]

On 08/07/2016 at 3:57 PM, LxP said:

well in pratice you just need to stop lmb for 5 stack then et voilà ;) another burn during 9 s

 

19 hours ago, LxP said:

i was speaking of the stun skill...

very hard? well u just need practice...

 

30 minutes ago, LxP said:

short fuse 10sec > but u never saw the number 10 bc at the impact it's writen 9...

Erm LxP I think you are confusing because you seems to contradict yourself in every statement XD. Anyway it does not matter I don't want to quarrel with you. I actually still cannot figure out a basic rotation for burn build and autodetonate. Any advice for me? E.g. I use r2r2r1 for basic burn build. Any way to modify this rotation to work with autodetonate? I just want a simple rotation that can work, giving constant burn and still can autodetonate. The methods OP mentioned is too advance for me.

[LxP]

well i will try to explain it better my english is not so good.

 

Inferno: 45s CD: burn for 6sec

Impact: 0s CD: Burn for 6sec

Short fuse: 18s CD: burn for 6 sec

 

Here is my rotation when i play solo/team for perma burn

 

Inferno > Short fuse > Impact ( here you have 18sec of burn ) /// Inferno CD: 27s /// Short fuse: 12s

Impact > Impact > Short fuse > Impact > Impact/Inferno

 

Repeat.

 

So basically, ifu are the only one who use auto deto you can manage to get 5 stack any time you want...

If you are more, you need some skill to have the good timing and watch other player ( well you need some practice, i took around 1 month in F8 to do it perfectly )

 

The Other alternative is to use the short fuse 10s Burn ( in the screen you never saw the number 10! bc the count down start at the impact so it's alway 9.XX ^^ )

 

Now go practice ;)

 

[Zedonia]

You can practice as long as you want you won't deal more damage with that than with pure burn as long as auto-det damage is not buffed. Tell me, how often does the detonation works per second? I doubt it will be more often that 1 time because I tried a build with max. ember stacking and you don't get a detonation permanently. Auto-det is just another way to make the game harder without any reward.

[SoulsHunter]

55 minutes ago, LxP said:

So basically, ifu are the only one who use auto deto you can manage to get 5 stack any time you want...

Thank you for your explanation. I have a question. After inferno>short fuse>, how do you use impact>impact>impact? What is the rotation? You have to stack ember with flame palm. But when you stack it to 5 it autodetonate meaning the impact will not give burn. This is where I can't figure out what to do.

 

edit: or are saying you are not using autodetonate for flame palm? you only use short fuse to autodetonate? i see i didnt realised autodetonate shortfuse CD only 18s. Thanks i will go test it out now.

 

Don't worry fellow forcemaster I won't do this when other FM are around.

[LxP]

" Thank you for your explanation. I have a question. After inferno>short fuse>, how do you use impact>impact>impact? What is the rotation? You have to stack ember with flame palm. But when you stack it to 5 it autodetonate meaning the impact will not give burn. This is where I can't figure out what to do. "

 

well you answere is not complet ;) i just calculate the number of stack my next skill will do, and then i use impact ;) and yes palm got auto detonate, that why u need to practice a lot for solo  fm :)

[Racingwind]

On 8/8/2016 at 0:39 AM, LxP said:

short fuse 10sec > but u never saw the number 10 bc at the impact it's writen 9...

why are you the rage kid that nobody like? useless comment everytime... i think you are the kind of guy who blame other fm in every dongeon right?

dude, try it on your own

You are incorrect that it shows 9, it shows a 10. Why don't you go try it? And short fuse doesn't stun.

 

I am not sure where the rage is, confusion definitely. And I'm sure you are loved by the masses for auto detonating. I see your argument as a whole is flawed, and so I deconstruct them to show which parts are flawed. And no I do not blame other FMs, I just time my impact every time just before it gets to 5 stacks so they can't auto det.

 

I did try it on my own, and the conclusion is that it's possible in theory, but not plausible in practice. The tiny amount of gain (13%, in just this skill, assuming 100% crit chance and 200% crit damage, but no one has 100% crit chance) is offset by the loss of a single missed burn, and the probability of that happening is extremely high, due to GCD gating.

 

I may have been saying that this is possible in theory, but that does not mean it is practical.

23 hours ago, LxP said:

Short fuse: 18s CD: burn for 6 sec

Inferno > Short fuse > Impact ( here you have 18sec of burn ) /// Inferno CD: 27s /// Short fuse: 12s

So basically, ifu are the only one who use auto deto you can manage to get 5 stack any time you want...

If you are more, you need some skill to have the good timing and watch other player ( well you need some practice, i took around 1 month in F8 to do it perfectly )

The Other alternative is to use the short fuse 10s Burn ( in the screen you never saw the number 10! bc the count down start at the impact so it's alway 9.XX ^^ )

When did short fuse become 6 second burn? I only see 10 seconds or 5 seconds. Even with your argument that it never show 10 but 9 instead, then it should never show 5 but 4 instead. How did you get 6 seconds? Maybe I'm missing something, enlighten me.

 

How did you get 18 seconds of burn? If following your order and number, inferno would indeed have 27s CD, but short fuse would have 6 seconds.

 

Of course, being the only FM in the group, sure do what you want. The problem comes when everyone starts using this style, it becomes almost impossible to track embers and dungeon mechanics at the same time. And if you have HM flame palm, the crit adds in another random factor, making it impossible to "calculate" the amount of stacks you will get on your next flame palm. Sure you can just don't spec into it, but that defeats the whole purpose of this build, to stack as much ember as possible, as fast as possible. Inevitably, burn will fall off more often than a straight up burn build, and that is the Archilles heel of this build. The best DPS build is the build that allows the maximum up time of burn buff while being able to keep up boss mechanics.

 

If you are a robot, with sub 100ms pings maybe. But from what I've seen of your argument, and no offense or anything, I'm sorry to say that I find it extremely hard to believe when you say you, or anyone else for this matter, can do it "perfectly".

On 8/8/2016 at 1:18 AM, SoulsHunter said:

 Any way to modify this rotation to work with autodetonate? I just want a simple rotation that can work, giving constant burn and still can autodetonate. The methods OP mentioned is too advance for me.

There is no easy way to do this. Might as well stop trying to making it practical. It'll remain viable in theory, but that's pretty much where it'll stay for the foreseeable future.

[LxP]

"

 

Of course, being the only FM in the group, sure do what you want. The problem comes when everyone starts using this style, it becomes almost impossible to track embers and dungeon mechanics at the same time. And if you have HM flame palm, the crit adds in another random factor, making it impossible to "calculate" the amount of stacks you will get on your next flame palm.

"

 

it's not because "YOU" are not able to make it than other people can't ;)

 

" If you are a robot, with sub 100ms pings maybe. But from what I've seen of your argument, and no offense or anything, I'm sorry to say that I find it extremely hard to believe when you say you, or anyone else for this matter, can do it "perfectly". "

 

well when i party with more than 4 fm ( including me ) i can't really manage it, but since 4fm's buff can make a perma burn it's pretty nice.

So i'm sorry for you if you think it's not possible, keep following your mind and keep stuck in that hole you made for yourself ;)

 

i don't have to loose my time for you if you want to practice by yourself ;)

 

[Racingwind]

1 hour ago, LxP said:

"it's not because "YOU" are not able to make it than other people can't ;)

well when i party with more than 4 fm ( including me ) i can't really manage it, but since 4fm's buff can make a perma burn it's pretty nice.

So i'm sorry for you if you think it's not possible, keep following your mind and keep stuck in that hole you made for yourself ;)

 

i don't have to loose my time for you if you want to practice by yourself ;)

 

You have 57% crit chance, the ember is at 3 stacks, you use HM auto det flame palm. Please calculate with 100% certainty how many stacks of ember you will have when it hits. "I" can't do it because it's a physical impossibility. "You" can do it because you think too highly of yourself.

 

You only need 3 to have perma burn going using just short fuse. That is, IF all three FMs can coordinate properly, with impeccable timing. Is it possible? Yes. Is it practical? No. I don't just think, I model and simulation shows that it's not possible due to the inherent randomness of the rotation. My mind is analysis of the facts and human behavior, you on the other hand, seems to like the "hole" that you are superior to a point where you can break the physical impossibility.

 

Sorry buddy, if you can't back up your claim with actual numbers / other sources of evidence, you can have fun soloing your dungeons by yourself. And "it works because I say it works" just doesn't cut it. Present some actual data then we can look at the analytics.

 

[LxP]

debat with dumb people it's like masturbate with nail, so much effort and pain for nothing...

 

like i say, stay in your deep hole thinking everything is impossible, and keep your gameplay at the same lvl.

 

[SoulsHunter]

Actually Racingwind is not saying it is not possible. He/she is saying that even if you do it your damage will be lower than using pure burn build. After practicing I also find that I am killing things way too slow, getting surrounded by mobs, constantly in low health. Sadly I also concluded it is not worth it to practice so hard just to deal almost the same damage as a pure burn build. If anyone managed to come up with a BASIC rotation to keep up burn while autodetonating and deal MORE damage then a pure burn build. Please do share. I give up practising it.

[Zedonia]

24 minutes ago, SoulsHunter said:

If anyone managed to come up with a BASIC rotation to keep up burn while autodetonating and deal MORE damage then a pure burn build.

Exactly this.

 

As already said, theoretically it is better but practically not. Even if you can do it perfectly you will barely deal more damage than with pure burn. Fail 1 or 2 times and your damage is already lower. And to be honest, no one can do it perfectly all the time while reacting to boss mechanics and tanking the boss. Please, stop trying to tell us that everyone is worse than you while bringing NO FACTS and NO ARGUMENTS and  of course NO PROOFS of what you saying.

[Racingwind]

8 hours ago, LxP said:

debat with dumb people it's like masturbate with nail, so much effort and pain for nothing...

like i say, stay in your deep hole thinking everything is impossible, and keep your gameplay at the same lvl.

You didn't even answer my question on how you calculate ember stacks. Your numbers were all inconsistent and you were saying that short fuse stuns. Who's the idiot here?

 

I did not say it is impossible, quite the contrary I argued that it is indeed "theoretically" possible. However, I do argue that it is physically impossible to "calculate" with certainty ember stacks, which you claim to be able to do, since random chance is involved. Now you can rely on reaction time to see that it's 5 stacks and manual detonate before auto detonate (there is about a 0.5 second delay on auto detonate). But unless your reaction time is sub 100ms (average human reaction time to a visual stimulus is 250ms, and then you need the time for mental processing, motor control processing, game client processing, network delay, server processing etc.) which I HIGHLY doubt since the world record for fastest human reaction time for a visual stimulus to click a button is 101ms, you will not be able to do it perfectly (100% burn up time). And once you miss 1 burn, the time it takes to restart burn is already lower damage output than a pure burn build. Unless like I said, you are a robot, in which case I'm actually quite intrigued about meeting you in "person".

 

So go ahead, be stuck in your self complex, and be stuck in low level of game play, and be hated by FMs everywhere. But I do agree with you on one thing, this argument is pointless to continue on, because you aren't even arguing for your point, you are making a statement of opinion, "It's this way and that's final, no facts, no proofs, no arguments needed." You are entitled to whatever you want to think.

[Tsuchiryu]

My opinion on autodetonate: waste of time trying this hard to defend a build that's objectively bad in practice when there's more than 1 FM in party. Competing for ember stacks to detonate to either trigger burn or not is more annoying than anything else. It's the 2nd worst thing playing as the class when there's more than 1 FM, losing only to timing Frost Sheath wrong.

 

When that's the case (more than 1 FM), better go with standard burn build, it's really not that hard to pull it off if people actually try. Going autodetonate is making party play worse than it already can be. No amount of theorycrafting for or against it will ever change that, so why bother defending such a bad build is beyond me. You are making things good only for yourself at the expense of other FMs. Good party play is important to get anywhere and NOT using autodetonate plays a role to promote it, it's that simple.

[Tsunakai]

if you manage to detonate on every LMB and keep up burn, then maybe you'll outdamage by the slightest amount, but it's impossible to do these 2 things together. Then as soon as you get soulburn or blue buff, your dps is automatically lower than it would be with burn build.

Stop trying to defend auto det, you use it because you are un-able to maintain burn with 1, there's no other reason.