How can you enjoy a game without end game?

[Brand X]

49 minutes ago, DomiSotto said:

I actually do not mind the variety of the content in the end-game, there is always far more than I can do in a day. I just wish the rewards for each thing were not so small that to pressure a player in doing so much every day. Also, given how frequently the main story updates, and how cool the classes are for different PvP experiences, it has all the nuts and bolts imo to be pretty entertaining.

 

It's just too stingy with rewards which makes some entries hard to complete, because of the gear gap (SSP and 6 vs 6)

 

I can agree with that last part.  Needs to open up those reward pockets so it's easier to level new alts!  I'd be spending far more money on outfits, if I could enjoy alts more.

[Tsuchiryu]

Can't really complain about variety of endgame content, in all honesty. It's their accessibility that is the issue. Gear/skill gap and all that.

11 hours ago, Centershock said:

So what is the goal of an mmo? Get better gear to defeat stronger bosses that you could not defeat before ---- not in this game!

Wrong. The game does have that... or do you think non-clanmates will want to carry anyone below 400 AP in Asura... if they can ever get that far? Get better gear to defeat stronger enemies you could not defeat before without getting carried and actually pulling your own weight. Yup, this game has it.

 

11 hours ago, Centershock said:

Bring people together in guilds, on the battlefield to fight the opposite faction--- not in this game!

Not every server has faction imbalance, nor do they technically have to do any PvP in faction stuff... though, yes, the PvP part of it sucks.

[Andrewgr]

I think OP has mis-identified the "problem".

 

All MMOs require grinding the same content over and over at end game.  It is literally impossible for there to be any endgame other than this.  It is simply not possible to produce new content fast enough to give players something new to do all the time.  It takes over a year with over a thousand people and hundreds of millions of dollars to make a single action movie that you consume in under 2 hours.  It's the same thing with video game content: what you get bored with after 2 hours, took many people a long time and a lot of money to create.  

 

In order to "hide" this from you, WoW had weekly lockouts.  This is a purely arbitrary mechanism for forcing the player to consume the content over a longer (7x longer) period of time.  If it was possible to create content much more quickly, no one would even have thought of the idea of telling someone who wants to spend a few hours enjoying a game that they can't, and are instead forced to wait several more days.  It's purely to disguise the fact that there is a limited amount of content that is only going to keep you amused for a limited number of hours.

 

What I think "feels" different about BnS is that almost all of the content is so trivial.  You blow through it quickly because it's easy, there's never really a period of time where you're spending hours practicing mechanics or learning patterns or anything like that.  I think that's why the end game feels lacking, not because you need to do the same things over and over.

 

It is my understanding that the the equipment we have had available to us is much better than the equipment they had in other regions when our current content is released.  I believe their solution to this was to give mobs a lot more hit points-- I seem to remember something like 5 times as many hit points, but don't quote me on that.  That's not really a great solution, but it's an okay kludge.  It would have been  a *lot* of effort for them to figure out exactly how to scale damage, crits, timing of special abilities, etc., for all the mobs in order to make them give us the same level of challenge that other regions experienced.

 

I am withholding judgment until our content finally matches our equipment, which I believe should be in Q3 this year, according to the producer's roadmap.  If normal parties (not absurdly overgeared) are still clearing the latest dungeons 30 minutes after they're released, then yeah, at that point I'l concede that the endgame is lacking.

[Duri]

MMOs are not MEANT to be games you ever "finish" so there is not supposed to BE an end game.  You can't WIN this game.  Nobody can. There is no point when you will beat everything and walk away as the best there ever was because there's no end goal and there's no finish line.  It is like life, where the story goes on and yes, you do a lot of the same things every day.  

 

The point of the game is to have fun doing these things.  If you want to compete in PvP, do that.  Or don't.  Nobody forces you to do anything in this game.  So what you DO in it is pretty much up to you.   Can you find fun things to do besides complaining about how much you hate the things you are doing?   

 

Just like real life, this game is still writing its story.  How long does a life take to get to the end?  Years.  A lifetime.   Maybe this game won't take a lifetime but it is going to take a while to complete all the story updates.   As the 2NE1 song "Gotta Be You" says, "It's not over 'til it's over!"   

[LadyGamerluv]

They need to have like equalized battlegrounds like Tera did that was alot of fun and hate at the same time. Think it was like 10 vs 10 with a strategy to destroy the opponents 'castle gem'. But the key words are Equalized battleground and good rewards.

[Prototypemind]

3 hours ago, Andrewgr said:

 

What I think "feels" different about BnS is that almost all of the content is so trivial.  You blow through it quickly because it's easy, there's never really a period of time where you're spending hours practicing mechanics or learning patterns or anything like that.  I think that's why the end game feels lacking, not because you need to do the same things over and over.

Very much so. Vindictus has 2 of each raid max per day with interested mechanics and combat, GW2 used to have a great system with the reward cap on dungeons and is somewhat doing well with their new raiding structure, SWTOR and WoW were fine with their weekly lockouts because of the way progression worked and because of the difficulty of mechanics in the raids and Hard/Nightmare versions. Another benefit was SWTOR saving your progress, meaning that if you failed at a boss your group could continue to re-enter throughout the week and try your hand at a worthwhile fight.

 

There are small things that make a difference as well. In this game if you fail and someone quits, the distance a new player has to run is ridiculous. Who wants to log in to literally spend 10 minutes running to where a group is in each instance you're trying to clear? So much about how BnS is setup is adversarial and headache inducing.  It's literally designed in ways that put players at each others throats. Guaranteed drops are great, but this game doesn't handle that system very well. As of now BDO seems very similar in some ways: only top DPS gets rewarded, players constantly competing for the same bosses, zones, and resources. It just makes for a gigantic cesspool.

[Drossmarr]

I'm going to have to disagree with most of this thread. WoW had great replayability because the world was so vast. In BnS you always have the same starting location and quests no matter what you choose, the story is interesting but it's not worth grinding over and over just to see it again. In WoW you can do Roleplay or PVP or Questing.
 In BnS there's no roleplay community and questing is all very samey with no real attempts made to make it bearable or interesting. In WoW PvP and Faction is a lot more cohesive. In BnS PvP almost feels like an after thought.

 

Note: I'm not attacking the game by saying this, I don't mind the game but I also know it's far from perfect. WoW is also far from perfect but because of sheer content it will always have better Endgame and replayability. Content is what keeps MMOs alive and BnS has the content of a single player game with the grind of an MMO that's a combination that frankly does not bode well for the games longevity. 

 

You can acknowledge a games flaws and still like it you know.

[Vagab0nd]

The devs at Blizzard have a term for this issue: The Locust Effect. They tried to focus exclusively on end game content, new raids, tweaking the old raids, spend six months to a year putting out a new expansion. Within a week of release, sometimes sooner, the first raids would be beaten. At the end of the month all "end game" content would be cleared. At which point all those end game players would start complaining about lack of end game content. They realized that was not a feasible business model. Putting out content *just* for the end game players, the top tier raiders, wasn't going to bring in new subscribers or retain the silent majority of the existing player base, so they shifted focus to catering to more casual players. The people that only play 2-4 hours a day, but play every single day. Those people take months, sometimes a year to clear new expansion content, rather than blitzing through it as fast as possible to get to the "end game".

In other words, end game raiding stopped being the demographic for WoW a long, long time ago. Now it's all about keeping the casuals subscribed, along with their kids, who only play a little bit, but play consistently. Given it now has 12 years worth of content, that's a lot to get through if you're not blazing to top level as fast as you can.

As for here, the grind is all about getting you to spend money. Spend it to get mats, spend it alleviate fees, spend it to get cosmetics, but they want you spending. The longer they make it take, the more hoops you have to jump through, the more frustrating it is, the bigger the chance of someone breaking down and cracking open their wallet.

End game content like raiding isn't the real end game. The end game is getting you so mad you spend money to be less mad.

[Laosduude]

19 hours ago, Centershock said:

.

 

Enjoy another mmo to complain at then, every mmo has content that is GOING TO BE REPEATED daily to work towards a goal. BnS isn't your cup of tea then

[Drossmarr]

5 minutes ago, Laoshottie said:

Enjoy another mmo to complain one, every mmo has content that is GOING TO BE REPEATED daily to work towards a goal.

Yeah but usually that content is you know...FUN? Repeating Instances or Battlegrounds in WoW is a blast. Heck even Wildstar with it's samey combat makes instances an adventure worth having. In BnS when I enter a dungeon my first instinct is to get it over with so I don't have to be in the dungeon anymore. That should not be my first reaction to a new envirnment in an MMO. My first reaction should be OOOOOH look at all the pretty things I can kill/Loot/Admire

[Laosduude]

1 minute ago, Drossmarr said:

Yeah but usually that content is you know...FUN? Repeating Instances or Battlegrounds in WoW is a blast. Heck even Wildstar with it's samey combat makes instances an adventure worth having. In BnS when I enter a dungeon my first instinct is to get it over with so I don't have to be in the dungeon anymore. That should not be my first reaction to a new envirnment in an MMO. My first reaction should be OOOOOH look at all the pretty things I can kill/Loot/Admire

Everyone has their own opinion and taste. I find Blade & Soul dungeons and dailies fun because of how the combat is set up. No one can honestly change the opinions of another that easily unless you're close friends lel. I recently found an active clan to do all my content with, so that makes my own experience a lot better. 

[Drossmarr]

4 minutes ago, Laoshottie said:

Everyone has their own opinion and taste. I find Blade & Soul dungeons and dailies fun because of how the combat is set up. No one can honestly change the opinions of another that easily unless you're close friends lel. I recently found an active clan to do all my content with, so that makes my own experience a lot better. 

Oh combat is a blast, for sure, there's absolutely nothing wrong with combat in BnS it's a dream, smooth as a babies bottom, pure as love.

 

...it's also the ONLY thing the game has going for it, aside from the story and the customization. 

 

But Story, Customization and Combat does not a lasting MMO make. A sucessful singleplayer RPG? Definitely, a successful MMO? Not on your life.

[Laosduude]

5 minutes ago, Drossmarr said:

Oh combat is a blast, for sure, there's absolutely nothing wrong with combat in BnS it's a dream, smooth as a babies bottom, pure as love.

 

...it's also the ONLY thing the game has going for it, aside from the story and the customization. 

 

But Story, Customization and Combat does not a lasting MMO make. A sucessful singleplayer RPG? Definitely, a successful MMO? Not on your life.

Dunno, the game has been out since 2012 and has been released in China, Japan, Taiwan, US, Europe, and Russia outside of Korea. It's successful enough to last an ongoing 4 years and counting with it's old MMO methods and in multiple countries. Doesn't mean it has to be successful to be near the rank of World of Warcraft standards lel, they made this game for a specific audience.

[Drossmarr]

1 minute ago, Laoshottie said:

Dunno, the game has been out since 2012 and has been released in China, Japan, Taiwan, US, Europe, and Russia outside of Korea. It's successful enough to last an ongoing 4 years and counting with it's old MMO methods and in multiple countries. Doesn't mean it has to be successful to be near the rank of World of Warcraft standards lel, they made this game for a specific audience.

You're misunderstanding what I mean by Successful, when I say sucessful what I mean is "Good example of the medium that makes good use of said medium" I'm not talking about subscribers or audience I'm talking about Quality.

[MegaMouseGW]

Too many people rush to the end without finding out why they are there, not too mention they also rush without enjoying the actual game. Too them it is a job. Me I like the journey to the end and not so much the end itself. Maybe I am a minority here but this so called "endgame" is crap and should never be brought up in the first place. "End game" does not really exist when  there is another instance waiting for the next major patch. By its definition if we went at it literally, "endgame" would mean the game was ending and not gonna continue at all. Where is the fun in that?

[Prototypemind]

End game in MMOs does not equate to endgame in chess, the real world or otherwise. You're getting a bit too semantic.

[Reiko]

On 6/23/2016 at 1:04 AM, tuannifur said:

Well the thing is, Blade And Soul is unique because the story line has seasons.

 

It's basically us playing inside an "anime". We get seasons. We just finished Season 1... (spoilers) We kill  " J "

 

The second season will be about young " J " being in some...trouble with a person with fans. Im not spoiling. 

 

 

 

So basically, If we do have an end game content, there would be no point in having it unless the story line is completely done, or we would be fighting some random character named "Dragon Reborn Super Saiyan Yura" that the stage would be in sky petal plains or something with the gates of hell opened in the sky and we have no idea how in the world it even happened.

 

You know what i mean?

 

 

Stalker Tuannifer really loves killing me that's why he stalks me all the time like a love sick puppy. It's to bad there is no leash for the puppy though

[Nabzy]

On 6/23/2016 at 1:07 AM, Lunakitty said:

I don't know what MMOs you have been playing but to me endgame means farming same things over and over again to gain materials for selling or upgrading.

That is endgame in almost every MMO.

 

 

If you don't want to farm the same thing over and over at end-game, then MMOs probably aren't for you. In that case, just play other games..

[855967_1452550250]

14 hours ago, LadyGamerluv said:

They need to have like equalized battlegrounds like Tera did that was alot of fun and hate at the same time. Think it was like 10 vs 10 with a strategy to destroy the opponents 'castle gem'. But the key words are Equalized battleground and good rewards.

That would realy be nice! It's doesn't have to eplace the existing one, just another mode to choose from, equalized as you say. Thumbs up for this suggestion.

[Lunakitty]

1 hour ago, Nabzy said:

That is endgame in almost every MMO.

 

 

If you don't want to farm the same thing over and over at end-game, then MMOs probably aren't for you. In that case, just play other games..

Not sure if that was pointed at me or towards the OP because I have no issues with the game. :o

[Shukran]

"pvp way too boring"

 

i just understood you.

[Nabzy]

2 hours ago, Lunakitty said:

Not sure if that was pointed at me or towards the OP because I have no issues with the game. :o

Quoted you because I was agreeing with you. I realized i should have quoted the OP too. Haha

[Prototypemind]

5 hours ago, Nabzy said:

That is endgame in almost every MMO.

 

 

If you don't want to farm the same thing over and over at end-game, then MMOs probably aren't for you. In that case, just play other games..

This game definitely does it in a way that's worse than most. BDO is the only other semi-recent title that I've touched that's as bad, and surprise, surprise, it's another eastern grinder. I made a new Soul Fighter last night, but I was meh about things when I hopped in and the thought of the grind to come made me just close the game out.

[DomiSotto]

20 hours ago, Drossmarr said:

Oh combat is a blast, for sure, there's absolutely nothing wrong with combat in BnS it's a dream, smooth as a babies bottom, pure as love.

I agree, but one thing I notice right now as I am carrying a daily challenge + Brightstone farm for Moontears load about the BnS combat is that it is extremely fun for shorter engagements, and tends to get extremely tiring in the repetitive combat that demands high amount of damage.

 

In other words, I-framing a couple of times in the space of 1 minute combat while violently plying your DPS is cool. Spamming the same sequence for 5 minutes, while eating away at gazillion HPs and repeating the same thing again and again and again on the boss is becoming tiring and loses its initial gamegasmic feel.

 

I do miss the unpredictability of PvP and the whole segment of the objective-based PvP that is unwisely gear-locked in BnS.