Remove Failure From Premium Transformation Stones!

[Charas Blade]

6 minutes ago, MoeGod said:

I'm laughing at people who are supporting rng in a game xD
So tell me, what's your arguments and reasons why rng is good?
Please be a reasonable adult and have a proper answer, not some bullshit like "I like it because I like it"

Well if game wont have any RNG, you'll reach end game gear like a 1 month (character which started from 0) , now give me at least 1 viable reason why should I play such game?

Things like "I play 2h a day" doesn't count, simply because it's MMO and to progress you need spend time in it.

[JatoJato]

9 minutes ago, MoeGod said:

I'm laughing at people who are supporting rng in a game xD
So tell me, what's your arguments and reasons why rng is good?
Please be a reasonable adult and have a proper answer, not some bullshit like "I like it because I like it"

To be fair - at some points rng is good becasue it generates more exitement. This is true for example for the loot in a dungeon. But it would be nice if there were some kind of pitty-counter for ppl that are not so lucky but work hard. For example some kind of token to buy rare-loot from a vendor.

Rng at transmuting/equipment however is just annoying.

[JatoJato]

5 minutes ago, Charas Blade said:

Well if game wont have any RNG, you'll reach end game gear like a 1 month (character which started from 0) , now give me at least 1 viable reason why should I play such game?

Things like "I play 2h a day" doesn't count, simply because it's MMO and to progress you need spend time in it.

No - it is all a question how fast you can obtain stuff and how much stuff you need. Only because things have no rng in it this does not mean that ppl get it faster or for free. As i said ealier for example True Scorpio is completly free of rng but not everyone has it yet.

Yeah well i aggree on the part that you have to spend time - but a) we have an arms race because Ncsoft rushes content because it is available and b) as the prem stones show - even if you spend time you can be unlucky.

[MoeGod]

I can tell that EVERYONE who SUPPORTS RNG is the one who gets extremely lucky and probably has gotten some SPTS already rofl

I guess YOU GUYS think it's fair because it's a fast way to catch up with hard-working and/or spending players, huh? Thinking that it's cool because you can easily get profit because of your high luck, without having to invest any time/money?

[Charas Blade]

1 minute ago, MoeGod said:

I can tell that EVERYONE who SUPPORTS RNG is the one who gets extremely lucky and probably has gotten some SPTS already rofl

Failed 3 PSTS out of 3, still support RNG. You move

[MoeGod]

5 minutes ago, Charas Blade said:

Well if game wont have any RNG, you'll reach end game gear like a 1 month (character which started from 0) , now give me at least 1 viable reason why should I play such game?

Things like "I play 2h a day" doesn't count, simply because it's MMO and to progress you need spend time in it.

If you want end-game gears take a long time to achieve, simply increase the cost to make it. Period. RNG does NOT need to be here.

[MoeGod]

9 minutes ago, JatoJato said:

To be fair - at some points rng is good becasue it generates more exitement. This is true for example for the loot in a dungeon. But it would be nice if there were some kind of pitty-counter for ppl that are not so lucky but work hard. For example some kind of token to buy rare-loot from a vendor.

Rng at transmuting/equipment however is just annoying.

Excitement from rng lottery? Go try your luck at Windrest, they literally add a lottery there in which you can win 10k gold. There are also other things involving rng that you can do. BUT involving rng in PROGRESSION is totally ridiculous.

 

P/S: I'm still waiting for other people's arguments. Really curious and want to see what & why some people can support such a thing.

[JatoJato]

5 minutes ago, MoeGod said:

Excitement from rng lottery? Go try your luck at Windrest, they literally add a lottery there in which you can win 10k gold. There are also other things involving rng that you can do. BUT involving rng in PROGRESSION is totally ridiculous.

 

P/S: I'm still waiting for other people's arguments. Really curious and want to see what & why some people can support such a thing.

Windrest is a lottery that serves a total different purpose but nonetheless other forms of exitement.

 

Loot at a dungeon is not progression. So what is you argument against rng in a dungeon (with pitty-counter)?

11 minutes ago, MoeGod said:

If you want end-game gears take a long time to achieve, simply increase the cost to make it. Period. RNG does NOT need to be here.

There is a much simpler solution -> bind upgrades on achievments. 

For example.

Leg 1 - 100 times yeti.

Leg 2 - 100 times asura.

Leg 3 - 100 times nexus.

...

[MoeGod]

8 minutes ago, JatoJato said:

Windrest is a lottery that serves a total different purpose but nonetheless other forms of exitement.

 

Loot at a dungeon is not progression. So what is you argument against rng in a dungeon (with pitty-counter)?

There is a much simpler solution -> bind upgrades on achievments. 

For example.

Leg 1 - 100 times yeti.

Leg 2 - 100 times asura.

Leg 3 - 100 times nexus.

...

Oh sorry I misread your comment. Yes, I'm totally fine with rng in dungeon. And for the pitty-counter, a system like the past Tide Event may work: failing to upgrade the weapon gives you some fragments to exchange for the rewards. But here is the thing: NCSoft is TERRIBLE at evaluating rewards' values so it VERY LIKELY to end up with a tremendous amount of fragments needed for a good reward. If they can't have a better common sense, simply removing rng from progession is feasible.

 

Adding achievement requirements for legendaries is a great idea as well. In the end, there are many ways to make the game better so it's actually practical.

[Tandleheart]

32 minutes ago, MoeGod said:

I'm laughing at people who are supporting rng in a game xD
So tell me, what's your arguments and reasons why rng is good?
Please be a reasonable adult and have a proper answer, not some bullshit like "I like it because I like it"

Since we're being adults, let's get to the reality: This game is run by NCsoft to make money and it isn't charity, no matter what they say about being "free to play".  There's many facets to this model.  One easy example is the keys: You can risk opening that box with RNG or... hey, you go spend a little bit of RL $$$ on that key we have on sale at our shop, and we'll guarantee that you'll get the weapon for your character's class.  Here, the facet is dangling that carrot of success in front of you so that you'll keep playing (and possibly spend more $$$) despite the fact that there's a huge chance for a setback.  Yeah, they hope you have fun along the way but ultimately, they don't care as long as you spend $$$ on their game.  And they've decided that enough people put up with the game of chance that they'll make more money in the end, despite the fact that a few people will complain about it.  (n.b. In some ways, the RNG here is worse than at a casino.  In some casino games, the house edge is very miniscule.  Here, its somewhat well-known that the chance to make some items like Silverfrost Premium Transformation Stones, or High Quality Outfit Boxes, are small... the chance to fail greatly overwhelms the chance for success.)

 

So will RNG make the best game evar?  Nope.  But has NCsoft decided to exploit the RNG in their monetization/business model?  Yup.

[JatoJato]

5 minutes ago, Tandleheart said:

Since we're being adults, let's get to the reality: This game is run by NCsoft to make money and it isn't charity, no matter what they say about being "free to play".  There's many facets to this model.  One easy example is the keys: You can risk opening that box with RNG or... hey, you go spend a little bit of RL $$$ on that key we have on sale at our shop, and we'll guarantee that you'll get the weapon for your character's class.  Here, the facet is dangling that carrot of success in front of you so that you'll keep playing (and possibly spend more $$$) despite the fact that there's a huge chance for a setback.  Yeah, they hope you have fun along the way but ultimately, they don't care as long as you spend $$$ on their game.  And they've decided that enough people put up with the game of chance that they'll make more money in the end, despite the fact that a few people will complain about it.  (n.b. In some ways, the RNG here is worse than at a casino.  In some casino games, the house edge is very miniscule.  Here, its somewhat well-known that the chance to make some items like Silverfrost Premium Transformation Stones, or High Quality Outfit Boxes, are small... the chance to fail greatly overwhelms the chance for success.)

 

So will RNG make the best game evar?  Nope.  But has NCsoft decided to exploit the RNG in their monetization/business model?  Yup.

Hm you are right that Ncsoft as any other company want to make money.  But i wonder about the rng. I mean in general yes the key has to be bough but weapons might be annoying but more or less ok. Also i think it is not possible to buy premium stones or even upgrades itself in the shop at the moment - so this cannot be the point. Furthermore there are more ways to make money - for example more players -> more premium, more players -> more chances to sell cosmetics, more players -> more chances to sell at throve vents, ... and we can make this list last very very long. Summarizing - rng is not rlly needed - at least not in the acutal amount - it is more likely that they just didn't think about it or wanted to save the money a devloper would cost to adapt the asian version of the game ^^.

[MoeGod]

I'm not here to talk about what business model NCSoft should follow. They've already had so many "pay2progress" events but this is out of the discussion here.

Am I saying that ALL rng should be removed? No, I'm targetting the specific rng in progression, which, in this case, is the failure rate of SPTS. I don't care about other rng in things like Outfit Boxes, Pet Pouches, Trove, etc. because they are NOT REQUIRED for progression.

 

P/S: To ALL people who are saying we don't need legendaries: I'm very sorry to say that legendaries are REQUIRED to do Hell's Furnace, Naryu Sanctum, Black Tower, and all later dungeons so actually EVERYONE will HAVE TO get legendaries somehow. In terms of specific number, 750 AP is the minimum for 4-man Hell's Furnace (around 670 for 6-man), 800 AP is the minimum for 4-man Naryu Sanctum (around 730 for 6-man). Good luck with your True Scorpion in the future.

[Nattia]

At least right now you have two ways to get your PSTS, you can only *try* to obtain the legendary neck in one way :(

[Tandleheart]

6 minutes ago, JatoJato said:

Hm you are right that Ncsoft as any other company want to make money.  But i wonder about the rng. I mean in general yes the key has to be bough but weapons might be annoying but more or less ok. Also i think it is not possible to buy premium stones or even upgrades itself in the shop at the moment - so this cannot be the point. Furthermore there are more ways to make money - for example more players -> more premium, more players -> more chances to sell cosmetics, more players -> more chances to sell at throve vents, ... and we can make this list last very very long. Summarizing - rng is not rlly needed - at least not in the acutal amount - it is more likely that they just didn't think about it or wanted to save the money a devloper would cost to adapt the asian version of the game ^^.

No worries, I totally get it :)  Yeah there's more ways to make money than to just use RNG, and arguably some of those other ways might make them more money in the end, offend people less, and make the game so that success is more based on skill or persistence and not how many times one gets lucky.  But alas, I'm guessing that NC decided in their cost/benefit analysis that this is the way to go, especially since the Korean version of the game already has so much RNG in it.  Little cost, great casino-like returns :)

[Tandleheart]

20 minutes ago, MoeGod said:

I'm not here to talk about what business model NCSoft should follow. They've already had so many "pay2progress" events but this is out of the discussion here.

Am I saying that ALL rng should be removed? No, I'm targetting the specific rng in progression, which, in this case, is the failure rate of SPTS. I don't care about other rng in things like Outfit Boxes, Pet Pouches, Trove, etc. because they are NOT REQUIRED for progression.

You can't separate out the business model from the game mechanics here, they are intricately tied together to maximize revenue (at least, that's what they think.)  I can't think of a better way to entice you to spend money than to leverage something in the game that you are "REQUIRED" to overcome to progress.  I mean, technically, you're not required to spend any money at all: You can either try to get all the ingredients yourself and try to proc that item--with knowledge that the chance for failure is high.  OR you can grind a lot over many weeks and save up the in-game gold, and then buy it from the marketplace.  But... if you wanted to spend a little bit of money (well, its actually lot of money here, but you know that's the way it is)... there's that nice in-game gold market, all it takes is your credit card and CTRL+C, and you can get it now...

[Charas Blade]

57 minutes ago, MoeGod said:

If you want end-game gears take a long time to achieve, simply increase the cost to make it. Period. RNG does NOT need to be here.

But then everyone will complain like "I need 1000 stingers to do upgrade for  10ap" 

 

55 minutes ago, MoeGod said:

P/S: I'm still waiting for other people's arguments. Really curious and want to see what & why some people can support such a thing.

One more thing it's a gold sink and material sink, coz otherwise stinger prices now will be 1s and moonstones 50s 

[Nattia]

1 minute ago, Charas Blade said:

But then everyone will complain like "I need 1000 stingers to do upgrade for  10ap" 

stingers are tradeable and most mats are, so that creates another nice way to fulfill the goal. it's better to have more options than just ONE.

[JatoJato]

1 minute ago, Charas Blade said:

Ooookay, you want to go back in time and search top topic "Why I quit this game" , 99% of reason are that upgrades are too costly, so they make discounts, now people complain PSTS failing, you just bunch of toxic people, who are never happy.

 

All you want to be as those who play a lot and have end game gear without doing a single effort.  

As i said before:

There is a much simpler solution -> bind upgrades on achievments. 

For example.

Leg 1 - 100 times yeti.

Leg 2 - 100 times asura.

Leg 3 - 100 times nexus.

...

 

Furthermore - what do you expect - i mean if the upgrades to True Scorpio were expensive then the Leg/PSTS are also too expensive because they cost a lot more :-).

[Grimstar]

54 minutes ago, JatoJato said:

There is a much simpler solution -> bind upgrades on achievments. 

For example.

Leg 1 - 100 times yeti.

Leg 2 - 100 times asura.

Leg 3 - 100 times nexus.

...

This would indeed be a good system, tho things like that should be bound to skills, cause atm the price of some skills is insane (offals). I'm hm11 and dont even have some hm skills cause of the pricing.

Legendary wep should be expensive to make, not this rng system we have now. Casual players need alot of time to grind the mats, only to fail carfting the psts. I've even seen some people in my guil quit, cause they kept failing them. I failed 8 of them in a row, i'm never trying that again.

[Charas Blade]

stingers are tradeable and most mats are, so that creates another nice way to fulfill the goal. it's better to have more options than just ONE.

Ooookay, you want to go back in time and search top topic "Why I quit this game" , 99% of reason are that upgrades are too costly, so they make discounts, now people complain PSTS failing, you just bunch of toxic people, who are never happy.

 

All you want to be as those who play a lot and have end game gear without doing a single effort.  

[JatoJato]

4 minutes ago, Nattia said:

I think PSTS are fine as they are now, because there are two ways to obtain them, and it feels fair. gamble or spend big. it's good.

Or just introduce a way to craft them that costs more but has no chance of failure. Problem solved - all in all players are more happy then. Besides it might even be better because players that got lucky earn less money ;-).

[Nattia]

Just now, Charas Blade said:

Ooookay, you want to go back in time and search top topic "Why I quit this game" , 99% of reason are that upgrades are too costly, so they make discounts, now people complain PSTS failing, you just bunch of toxic people, who are never happy.

 

All you want to be as those who play a lot and have end game gear without doing a single effort.  

I think PSTS are fine as they are now, because there are two ways to obtain them, and it feels fair. gamble or spend big. it's good.

[Charas Blade]

1 hour ago, JatoJato said:

There is a much simpler solution -> bind upgrades on achievments. 

For example.

Leg 1 - 100 times yeti.

Leg 2 - 100 times asura.

Leg 3 - 100 times nexus.

go play tetris seriously but even there you will complain that figures dropping too fast :DDDDDD

[JatoJato]

12 minutes ago, Charas Blade said:

 go play tetris seriously but even there you will complain that figures dropping too fast :DDDDDD

I dont say that an upgrade is for free with that. I said this could be a requirement. And besides as i might remind you - you were the one that complained that people could upgrade too fast (original tone: within a week). So tell me which better way is there besides some requirements that actually forces players to play the game...

[Charas Blade]

2 minutes ago, JatoJato said:

I dont say that an upgrade is for free with that. I said this could be a requirement. And besides as i might remind you - you were the one that complained that people could upgrade too fast (original tone: within a week). So tell me which better way is there besides some requirements that actually forces players to play the game...

Ok, yeti - 10 min - 1 run  (btw by now most of people have it for ages), Asura6 doesnt counted which means all <560 ap will not be able to upgrade (fail), I have around 80 runs (thx to merchant event) and I bet most of people do that also plus just by doing dailies it's takes 3 months. Which is doesnt make any difference , well it'll you guys will complain even more :D