Cyan Hirijikawa

Melee VS ranged classes / disadvantage

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The issue is obvious, nobody can deny it.

 

Melee have a very big disadvantage in dungeons and OWPVP

 

I can live with OWPVP. But I really feel left out in dungeons . All my friends are leveling a FM and others are going summoner.

 

Why can't I just play a BD without being being discriminated.

 

4M are mostly ranged+tank class.

 

Look the first dungeon of today:

0073151c660ad0c0a8f1e810bb280d17.png

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Give us some kind of buff for being close to the boss and actually learning his mechanics/avoiding his attacks.

Vs being ranged and siting eating a sandwich and clicking few buttons while I hardcore battle the boss LOL!

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Valiant   

Please, You are blade dancer who  atleast can make nice damage while moving imagine destroyer like me who suppose to stand still to make a damn good ani-cancel to make dps.
 

Destroyer the most annoying melee class in mushin tower because of that, Like I need to make dps while standing and in same time I need to move most of melee can just dps while moving atleast kinda well beside destroyer 

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Kohashi   

well there are 2 main issues with this.

 

1. Boss mechanics

It's poorly designed and most bosses have proximity spells and very few range attacks. Also they dont randomly target a ranged character at every few attacks to balance it out either.

2. Classes base raw stats

All melee classes should receive a lot more HP, defense, aoe defense / each level they attain and even more in HM levels, except SINs who should not get as much because they have stealth and should be rather squishy.

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I think melees allready strong enough, just learn to avoid boss attacks, then everything is fine. BNS have pvp priotrity and once they buff melees u can forget arena with ranged. Just look on top list. bm/bd/sin always in top 5.

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Faline   

I agree that bosses need to have both close and long range attacks to be fair to melee and ranged classes. That is just obvious.

 

But....as I main LBD myself I have learned to use my Z,Q,E,SS,TAB=maelstrom efficiently so that really, I have no issue keeping my HP around the same as the rest of the party during a fight. It is all about watching mechanics, not facetanking..and timing your evade/iframe skills between your dpsing. I'm not saying i'm some pro melee player, I guess what i'm saying is practicing melee survival is something that requires a little more effort than spam skill ranged. It takes a certain type of person to prefer melee over ranged in this game.

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Archess   
25 minutes ago, Wentoxxxx said:

I think melees allready strong enough, just learn to avoid boss attacks, then everything is fine. BNS have pvp priotrity and once they buff melees u can forget arena with ranged. Just look on top list. bm/bd/sin always in top 5.

OP isnt talking about arena, he is talking about the AOE attacks that when you screw up one time, you have no chance to avoid a second hit and then a third snowball effect or where the red AOE is so fast, you need to know it is comming or you make no chance to avoid it, one stutter frame and you are *cricket*ed.

 

We don't have these issues in the arena, same way you ranged classes have no issues with any pve red AOE's because you are never in range of them, but just to name SSP, its a nightmare for any melee, AOE, AOE, AOE, then some of the bosses are designed with some sort of mechanic that lets them jump all over the place etc etc, it all adds up in the end that in this game its 1) Be ranged 2) Don't be melee, if i check my clans roster, it is insane how many WL, FM and SMN's we have and then there is that one KFM (me), 1 destro and 3 LBD's in a 60 man clan, so the ranged take up 55 spots, the melee 5.

 

Working as intended i guess.

 

 

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While I can agree that Melees have a disadvantage in SSP due to far too short reaction time for territoral-state-internet-conditions (ping, input-lag), the rest is just nonsense. Assassins have the highest dps ingame; they are even stronger than FMs, even if just marginally, and they're loved for their buff. Likewise, KFMs are loved for their buff. Destros are good for their grabbing-debuff and -disabling. BMs and KFMs are sought for Asura 'cause they can block all the time. The only class that's absolutely worthless for PvE is BD. Sorry, little Spincancerdancerrinos. :p

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Faline   
27 minutes ago, KhaosThanathan said:

While I can agree that Melees have a disadvantage in SSP due to far too short reaction time for territoral-state-internet-conditions (ping, input-lag), the rest is just nonsense. Assassins have the highest dps ingame; they are even stronger than FMs, even if just marginally, and they're loved for their buff. Likewise, KFMs are loved for their buff. Destros are good for their grabbing-debuff and -disabling. BMs and KFMs are sought for Asura 'cause they can block all the time. The only class that's absolutely worthless for PvE is BD. Sorry, little Spincancerdancerrinos. :p

Spindancerrinos have a grab that debuffs too js. Decreases  defense on grabbed enemy by 5% and can stack 5x

Edited by Faline

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I play a BM, and I enjoy the thrill of the battle. Having to actually dodge attacks by the skin of your teeth (hello 0.5s iframe resists) is a lot more fun than having 2 second resists or just standing at 10+m range and pewpewing away when someone is tanking for you.

 

Though, I have expressed my displeasure of one thing (and raged about it at times =_=) to friends. And that's the fact that ranged classes can do everything that tank classes can do, and often times, more. This is something that bugs me. An FM who knows what he/she is doing can quite easily tank any of the current content bosses without moving them too much, or at all.

 

But ranged classes are squishy!
Not in BnS they're not. Soul shields are what determine your level of squishyness, and base stats hardly make a difference. When everyone can get to within 10% stats of each other, what's the point of even having tank classes when ranged can do it all? This is really my only point of discontent when it comes to the ranged vs melee argument. I don't really need a dps buff on my BM, but if an FM is able to do everything that I can, then why am I or my class even needed? I haven't played on other versions, but I sure hope that there's future content where there are bosses that only a BM or KFM can tank. Make the tanks necessary, rather than a convenience.

 

As far as BDs go, I can't tell you how much smoother certain runs go with good BDs. Especially Yeti. Have FM/BD? Double stun Chubarro and grab him instantly. No snowballs needed. Grab the yeti and take him to the ramp. No waiting, just burst him down. Some of the BDs I run with time their grabs so well that it helps with certain phases of battle even. For instance, grabbing Asura at 91% hp allows you to bring him down much further than 90% before he goes to the middle and stats his flame phase. As he drops the swords around the room (hopefully with an FM kiting them), if you dps fast enough, you can skip lifeblooms and go directly to ice phase. 

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something that i find disturbing about this op post " all 4man are 1 tank 3 range ? " you kidding i hope with that statement..cause my groups and all groups in my guild are 2 melee 2 range.. 1 kfm / 1 bm in each group + 1 destroyer + 1 bd in each group.. then we have warlock,fm,sum,fm

 

and i play KFM tank, i have no problem.. and no i dont feel that melee are that behind in dmg at all.. they just need to learn to pattern from the bosses and i found that more rewarding.

Edited by 882184_1452550488

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Jaite   

That picture shows me, the melee doesnt understand mechanics while the range do.

 

I really dont see where this whole range just sits back and pewpewpew comes from. There are range mechanics just like melee mechanics, my clan melees personally dont have any issues at SSP or anywhere dealing with mechanics. Melees who complain are melees who dont know the mechanics just like the range still have to avoid the mechanics. Everyday, I see just as much range dead as I do melees.

 

In some sense you could say range has a advantage over some bosses but it doesnt exclude melees from also getting the loots if they know the mechanics. (Grindtooth). All there is to it is learn the mechanics, dodge the AoEs.

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Mucski   

I don't see what's your point. Most bosses AOE reaches all Ranges too, FM has 4 iframes it's true from which 1 of them protects the whole party, other than that you have to time them perfectly, so we do exactly the same as a melee just ... further away. Warlocks have only 2 iframe, 1 of them being Z and the other is S+S, both have a fair cooldown so you can't even say WL's are super awesome in Range. Idk about sum cause I didn't play it much, but the "1 star difficulty" on the character page can pretty much tell you why they don't have to do much while playing in dungeons. However all Melee's have at least 3 iframes, and a bunch of other resists and shields, for example BD has a TAB that increases defense insanely, you don't even have to iframe cause the boss doesn't even damage you. And if that's not enough, while using the same TAB you can use F to be invincible for a short time and run faster. :o

 

Never the less most of the time FM's tank all the bosses while your only job is to run after the boss that runs after the FM and try to do some dps. 

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Zipa   

This is easy. Take a similar approach as Diablo 3. Give melee characters 30% extra defense in PvE (not against players). But this is a long shot, because it needs to be implemented in KR,CN,TW, you name it.

 

LOL all these replies about learn the mechanics. Do range characters need to dodge 360 degree triple cleave? Think Cold Storage and Kaari Lord? If Yeti jumps on the melee tank, do range characters need to SS or iframe? The answer is No. So as you can see, range characters can just play with one hand in a lot of boss fights because they do not need to perform certain mechanics.

Edited by Zipa

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Shadovvv   

While it does seem like melees are disadvantaged and ranged are seemingly catered, the reverse actually happens as endgame continues. This is because bosses have mechanics that target the furthest person from them, i.e. the ranged, and if they aren't handled the boss will heavily damage and/or kill several party mates which slows down DPS output, and in the future, instantly wipes the whole party and heals back to full health.

  • Scorpion Queen: Scorpion adds give a huge defense buff for 10 seconds if killed, meant to be used on Nightmare Wave. The spawn underneath the furthest person from Scorpion Queen, but aggro the Queen's aggro holder unless the furthest person can hit them and kite them.
  • Winter Mane:
    • Triggers automatons in the corner, who target Winter Mane's aggro holder unless someone else (ideally range) can get to them and hit them on activation. If they hit Winter Mane, they induce a flashbang that doubles as a blind and stun.
    • Freeze the person furthest from him. If an automaton hits the frozen person, it removes their ice and everyone gets a piercing buff to counter Winter Mane's defense buff. This is usually skipped if the DPS is overkill, but there's not enough DPS to defeat Winter Mane with his 5 stack defense buff he will never die without the piercing buff.
  • Ken/Gen: Throws jars that leave a highly damaging area of effect field at the furthest person from them. They blend in with the floor, and by the time melee spots them its usually too late.
  • Asura: Throws fire swords leave a highly damaging area of effect field with a large radius. Marks the closest person, so range has to stand close for a bit and then get out of the way. Also Summoners and Warlocks need to recall their familiar or they get targeted and put the swords right on top of Asura.
  • Sundered Nexus Be Ido: Fires 6 missiles at the furthest person from him. The marked target needs to kite them around Be Ido as they leave a huge damage boost if Be Ido is standing next to them when they are destroyed, and if the missiles stack on top of each other the whole party immediately wipes.

That said, pugs will typically never do mechanics, often causing the whole party to get stunned, waste dragonblood, or even outright die which slows/stops DPS output. Get the melee to do it? They are doing no damage, are not in the best position to do them, and how often does a full melee party happen anyway.

6 hours ago, KhaosThanathan said:

While I can agree that Melees have a disadvantage in SSP due to far too short reaction time for territoral-state-internet-conditions (ping, input-lag), the rest is just nonsense. Assassins have the highest dps ingame; they are even stronger than FMs, even if just marginally, and they're loved for their buff. Likewise, KFMs are loved for their buff. Destros are good for their grabbing-debuff and -disabling. BMs and KFMs are sought for Asura 'cause they can block all the time.

And this too. There are things that melees can do but a ranged can't. An Assassin can literally do everything a Force Master, Summoner, and Warlock can except heal, cat taunt, group revive, downed party shield, hold block, and Soulburn.

Edited by Shadovvv

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Daktaro   

I main BD and am probably one of the worst BDs out there. I have terrible reaction time and so miss CCs and iframes way too often, which says something since BDs iframe is a lot more forgiving compared to someone like KFM. But, never really got discriminated in dungeons. 
The only thing I found is that some people blame BD for knock ups, even though for dungeons I spec F so that it cannot knock up. Someone else will knock up and i'll be spamming button for flicker which switches to the air combo if the mob is in the air so it will do the pentaslash thing by accident.

It's true though people won't usually be like "i'm so glad to have a BD in my party!!!!!!" where they would for other classes.

We only have the double knockdown, double stun and grab.. and if you have KFM+FM they can cover all 3 of these plus you get the blue buff and party freeze as well.
I have never done a 4 man dungeon before though and could definitely see the discrimination happening there since other classes would be more valuable over a BD. 

OWPVP yes. I can't even hope to do SSP as BD. Because of my bad reaction time plus terrible lag if I don't miss the iframe because of reaction I will miss it because of lag. If the channels are on the fuller side I can't even get near the bosses because my game will just freeze and/or crash. It also cuts my DPS an insane amount, so even if I can dodge the AOEs I can't get the loot. If i'm lagging I can only do 1 flicker in the time that I can usually do 4-5. 
With a range class would have more time to DPS less time dodging, and would be further away from the group of melees next to the boss so less lag.
Will probably have to level my summoner alt to do SSP for moonstones.. which is really depressing since love playing BD and wish I could do all content on him :'(
It would even be nice just to have somewhere to farm moonstones outside of PVP/lag infested areas.

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okitaluc   

This was called out many times before , they did nothing up till now, perhaps in the future. Being melee is being screwed twice much more difficult to play and usually less rewards for it lol

Edited by okitaluc

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It amuses me how people keep saying Blade Dancers are the most useless for party. A good Blade Dancer will know how to help their team in dungeons and I would say it is easiest melee for SSP also as it has so many iframe/resist skills. Of course due to the fast AoE speed and bosses moving around too much they are still at disadvantage compared to ranged.

 

I have played alot of dungeons as Blade Dancer and sadly many people do not know how to work with a Blade Dancer to enhance their help. People keep saying BD's grip ruins hit box for other melees while Destoyer's don't. I would say this is pretty much half of the time only attitude issue as I have experienced few time Destroyer's grab ruining the hit box for me where I have to adjust my position again to be able to hit. Not to mention BD can actually affect damage on the boss while holding it unlike Destro who is a sitting duck under the boss. Also in Asura's second boss BDs are pretty damn OP as they do have double stun and 3 knockdown skills. Not to mention to be able to avoid all 8 cruxes in Yeti and still being able to save party if the player was wise enough to invest on a HM resist skill.

 

Sad but true that people underestimate the class in PvE.

6 hours ago, OniOfTheSword said:

As far as BDs go, I can't tell you how much smoother certain runs go with good BDs. Especially Yeti. Have FM/BD? Double stun Chubarro and grab him instantly. No snowballs needed. Grab the yeti and take him to the ramp. No waiting, just burst him down. Some of the BDs I run with time their grabs so well that it helps with certain phases of battle even. For instance, grabbing Asura at 91% hp allows you to bring him down much further than 90% before he goes to the middle and stats his flame phase. As he drops the swords around the room (hopefully with an FM kiting them), if you dps fast enough, you can skip lifeblooms and go directly to ice phase. 

People often don't understand that BD can actually grip the 1st mini boss from on top of the pillar if it's stunned or knocked down and I specifically need to ask FM or summy to stun it for me. I still cannot solo daze it but maybe one day I'll learn that. But yes this is so true. I remember one run where we actually skipped 2x life blooms as we killed Asura way too fast as the party had 2x blade dancers (double the grip and dps enhancement for Summoner), 1 kfm and 1 summoner.

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Zedonia   

It's interesting. You complain about range classes is so much easier and whatever, but you want to chill the *cricket* out in the dungeons by yourself as melee. AOE are shit, I have to move too much and whatever. Wtf is wrong with you? BnS offers a gameplay which isn't boring as hell because you can manipulate the battle very hard. You can do every dungeon without getting hit once if you have the skill but I think exactly that's the problem. People only want it easy as hell so they have to complain about every shit. Just learn to play your class and to know the boss mechanics. I never saw a good player in any game complaining about such shit.

 

And for that about being range is easy dps from behind: No, it's not always that way. Especially as fm without a tank class in the group, you have to tank almost everything except you lack heavily on gear compared to others or you simply playing bad. Playing range isn't brainless at all. Boss mechanics don't allow that because there are always attacks you have to dodge or move away or whatever. Melee isn't harder at all, at least in dungeons. SSP is another thing but also not impossible for melee.

 

After all, everyone should play the class he likes not the class which might be the easiest/best. I wouldn't kick any class because of that specific class because all classes are fine. I don't see destro very helpful but well, I might be wrong. And like Lunakitty, I love BD. I have a not max. Level one by myself and he can solo world bosses so wtf should be wrong with being melee? Endgame bosses like yeti or asura aren't harder to tank than a lv. 30 world boss so please stop saying such nonsense like range is sooo much better.

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Shelly   

Well, as other people have mentioned, newer dungeons will have harder mechanics for ranged, so I think you just have to wait rather than complain and want to be buffed. Though I agree that melee are at a disadvantage. But as a ranged, I generally know mechanics better than most melee and prefer tanking even if I'm just a half tank. (and I always play in melee range). The only perk is I can still deal damage even if I'm out in range, but I tend to stay around 4-5m, which is still considered far out compared to melee, but I can easily get hit by melee attacks from bosses (especially since I'm aggro), so it feels slightly comparable since I don't have as many iframes. :C 

 

Ugh, I get kind of irritated when I get discriminated as a brain-dead range when I know boss mechanics better than most melee. But I get it, because there are lots of brain-dead ranged players so the stereotype is real. e-e

Whenever I meet a melee who knows boss mechanics as well as I and can survive, I'm super in love because that's obviously more amazing than me since melee is more difficult to play.  ^^

 

tbh, I think assassins and bd's are probably the least discriminated because they kind of have the best of both worlds. High dps, a lot of iframes, party protecting stuff. But idk. I see bm's and kfms, and summoners more discriminated against. Destroyers get discriminated just because they are highly associated with bots. These are just my observations though. 

 

tldr: I think everyone gets discriminated by other players. 

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Zerecas   
9 hours ago, Kohashi said:

Why is pvp in a pve related topic?

Because asking for some unnecessary boosts is equal to have the range classes getting screwed all over in other aspect, such as PvP.

 

But why is it related? Because Blade and Soul skill effects are universal which shares the same input throughout the PvP and PvE.

I've never heard of Blade and Soul developers making an exemption and applied a PvE-effect-only skill.

I don't know the motive behind of adding blue buff onto Assassin, perhaps it is to boost their performance as a dps role in PvE, but guess what?

If you boost melee in PvE, you boost them in PvP even further as if the current skill sets for them aren't enough, which is still laughable at their 'balance' as of now, just take a look at the top ranking.

 

PvE borderline and there we have got SSP and BlackWyrm, a mixture of PvP and PvE.

KFM've got upperhand with their evasion buff in OwPvP, so what kind of buff are you asking for, damage? To make them stronger than before while owning a bunch of players with the 1v6 dream? etc.

Ever heard of range classes tanking BlackWyrm perfectly? Never in my case.

 

 

________________________________________

Besides, as a range class won't save you from the death that much in SSP,

Both Mane bosses and Captain bosses all have the AoE that hit even the range classes. If you got the aggro, you're as good as a corpse, because we don't have spam-able blocking skill nor resistance skills that save us from melee and AoE hit.

 

If you think its all easy and cool to play FM in PvE then go ahead, every roles are expected to be perform by FM if in case, FM got the aggro, which is highly likely to be happen. Main dps, tank, support roles all in one run, are you prepare for that? Furthermore, if your party have melee players in it, instead of running and hitting, you'd better be standing still or close to the boss so the melee can dps too, in this case. are you a range or a melee without block and resist? In this case, are you prepare for this too?

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Teffy   
19 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

 

If you think its all easy and cool to play FM in PvE then go ahead, every roles are expected to be perform by FM if in case, FM got the aggro, which is highly likely to be happen. Main dps, tank, support roles all in one run, are you prepare for that? Furthermore, if your party have melee players in it, instead of running and hitting, you'd better be standing still or close to the boss so the melee can dps too, in this case. are you a range or a melee without block and resist? In this case, are you prepare for this too?

This so much.For very long time now I'm the dps,tank,support and all of this in mele range.Block yeti skill after the stand still jump & smash that knock you away and kd in the same time with fire tab(thats not that easy),jump behind Yeti/Snake/Scorpion,Iframe what has to be iframed...and meanwhile you have to be beast dps...sure.

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Shadovvv   
43 minutes ago, Shelly said:

tbh, I think assassins are probably the least discriminated because they kind of have the best of both worlds.

I dunno, oftentimes I see Assassins still get crapped on and people think we're a "hurr durr just a damage class" and claim we bring nothing to the party besides Fighting Spirit, when in fact Assassins are just highly underestimated. They were unwanted in Moonwater Era alongside Blade Masters, and even now people still believe Assassins are among the bottom.

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