Cyan Hirijikawa

Melee VS ranged classes / disadvantage

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Zerecas   
2 minutes ago, xCandyBear said:

wtf what kind of bs is this? my sin has more ap than this fm and does way less damage with/without fighting spirit not to mention i have to dodge all the crap fk u bns i'm really pissed off now

How do you know if that FM has lower AP than you do? Which FM to be exact, and at which timeline or description did they mentioned about their character stats? I honestly don't recall that.

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4 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

How do you know if that FM has lower AP than you do? Which FM to be exact, and at which timeline or description did they mentioned about their character stats? I honestly don't recall that.

on yeti video 6:19 he shows his ap even more sad i have more ap also more crit fk this game i'm so mad

 

Edited by xCandyBear

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Zerecas   
10 minutes ago, Kohashi said:

lol when you admit you dont know what a kfm does or whats about just stop there. Do you know how the kfm opened the fight?..let me clue you in... with guiding first which provides 10seconds 150% threat. Did you see the sorc attack first? no... did you see the guy losing aggro no. Do i see the sorc pushing 2 buttons 99% of the fight, damn right i did.  Much skill! please teach me..

 

Do you see the sorc going for first hit in necro? NO... do you see sorc kitting no? this is what happens in ideal cases. how many groups that you que with managed to be like this. probably under 5%...lol

 

anyway this is actually pointless. When people tell you that you are drunk , you go to bed.

Drunk is likely on you, "sorc".

 

So how is your initial 10 seconds or a minute of crap waiting? Now, how about you gives me a video of KFM soloing Heroic bosses for a minute where other members don't give a F.

That Yeti video didn't really show me neither 10 seconds nor a minute of waiting craps.

FM spamming skills in Yeti because she isn't on aggro, I could say the same for KFM in Necropolis run. Much skill! please teach me... yea? 

 

 

As for Necropolis duo, the point of KFM going first is? A few seconds after that, the FM took the aggro and handle the boss nicely. If FM can handle melee situation nicely, how dafak do melee not? And instead asking for more buffs, how about you not iframe and resist everything that is thrown at you. That FM is the definition of being all roles, where is that ranged pewpewpew you spoke of? There is none when you're geared. That is what I said, we don't care if we got the aggro, we face it more than you do.

Instead of sprouting nonsense and in attempt to ad hominem, how about you acknowledge that this is a fact. 5% of FM can do this? statistic from you?  LMAO I can say the same about 5% of KFM is capable of actually tanking.

 

When you said it's ideal cases, that's mean it does happen, if it does happen, it's not a case of impossible, its just the player that needs to understand, just like you. This isn't PvP where players will abuse everything to win and it is unpredictable, this is PvE where bosses have an attack sequence which is predictable, git gud.

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Zerecas   
2 minutes ago, xCandyBear said:

on yeti video 6:19 he shows his ap even more sad i have more ap also more crit fk this game i'm so mad

 

I see, then you might have to compare your critical and pierce, not saying pierce is everything, because all you probably need is just 10% piercing. 

FM's high damage comes from burn debuff, without it, FM is pretty much pointless which is why Burn FM hates FMs that removes the burn debuff,

I don't know if the damage u see are combined with blue buff of KFM though. But nonetheless, FM is one of the top tier dps, so the damage is inevitably high for that purpose.

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9 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

 

When you said it's ideal cases, that's mean it does happen, if it does happen, it's not a case of impossible, its just the player that needs to understand, just like you. This isn't PvP where players will abuse everything to win and it is unpredictable, this is PvE where bosses have an attack sequence which is predictable, git gud.

so you trying to say all melee are dumb only fm are smart? please....i can't just sit my ass and beat boss while i eat with other hand like you certainly do!!! go level one melee then we talk again!!!

Edited by xCandyBear

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this thread is such fun to read.. I main kfm tank and i have no problem regain aggro if a fm pulls the boss.. its just how that person who tank needs to learn how to use his/her skills better.. ^^ 

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Kohashi   
24 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

Drunk is likely on you, "sorc".

 

So how is your initial 10 seconds or a minute of crap waiting? Now, how about you gives me a video of KFM soloing Heroic bosses for a minute where other members don't give a F.

That Yeti video didn't really show me neither 10 seconds nor a minute of waiting craps.

FM spamming skills in Yeti because she isn't on aggro, I could say the same for KFM in Necropolis run. Much skill! please teach me... yea? 

 

 

As for Necropolis duo, the point of KFM going first is? A few seconds after that, the FM took the aggro and handle the boss nicely. If FM can handle melee situation nicely, how dafak do melee not? And instead asking for more buffs, how about you not iframe and resist everything that is thrown at you. That FM is the definition of being all roles, where is that ranged pewpewpew you spoke of? There is none when you're geared. That is what I said, we don't care if we got the aggro, we face it more than you do.

Instead of sprouting nonsense and in attempt to ad hominem, how about you acknowledge that this is a fact. 5% of FM can do this? statistic from you?  LMAO I can say the same about 5% of KFM is capable of actually tanking.

 

When you said it's ideal cases, that's mean it does happen, if it does happen, it's not a case of impossible, its just the player that needs to understand, just like you. This isn't PvP where players will abuse everything to win and it is unpredictable, this is PvE where bosses have an attack sequence which is predictable, git gud.

baaaaaaaah I didnt say you need to wait 10 seconds or 1 minutes. please learn to read. I'm out..

 

 

flips table..

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Zerecas   
Just now, xCandyBear said:

so you trying to say all melee are dumb only fm are smart? please....i can't just sit my ass and beat boss while i eat with other hand like you certainly can do go level one melee then we talk again!!!

Don't know how did you get that idea from my statement. There are dumb FM as many as the other classes, kiting FM that don't care about melee members is just as dumb. Yeti video shows how KFM hold his aggro perfectly, Necropolis shows how FM handle melee situation nicely, the only variable here is the players, not the classes. This ain't PvP like I said. Do I have to mention how sin play hit and run in Arena? Guess not.

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Slivaf   

No matter what game it is, ranged toons tend to have an innate advantage over melee, the ability to hit/kill before you even get hit yourself is so ridiculously useful it isn't even funny.

 

Melees essentially bring a knife to a gun fight, the 'gunners' obviously being the ranged class. This will always be the case with games/real life. 

 

That being said its not like melees don't have their own set of advantages, they tend to be much harder to see/way further away to be able to point out consistently especially when you calculate in for lag be it pc, or your internet lagging. (Likewise for the opposite with ranged/magic classes, they have a few weaknesses here and there, but are generally much harder to... 'locate.' xD)

 

it is without a doubt frustrating being on a melee toon compared to what ranged people seemingly have to go through, especially when they are often just as tanky if not more tanky than their melee counterpart, but meh there is little that can/will be done about it, as ranged/magic toons tend to easily outnumber melee ones, and of course devs will be far more willing to appease the ranged/magic classes in any given game, as the voice of the masses far outweigh the voice of the 'few'... even if the few have more 'sanity'/sense than the masses. (Not saying this is the case here, but yea more 'voices' on a matter is the one that the powers that be will side with, and that is just the truth of the matter.)

 

As much as I personally hate being told this... if you can't beat them join them. - I for one always pick a bm (or sword master class) which is always insanely difficult to learn pvp wise, one mistake and it winds up piled drive-d into a newly created crater in the ground. - This is the last game where I chose them first, so tired of it myself, I am being swayed into that stupid saying that I loathe... I am joining them/choosing other melee classes that are a bit easier to learn/tend to stay alive longer regardless of the location. (Pve/OwPvp/One on one) - Don't get me wrong I still love the bm class on this game/the others games I have chosen it on, but yea... I have had my fill with the class, I am cutting bait and getting the hell out of dodge, too many annoyances with them anymore. (having to work 10x harder in any given situation, save perhaps one tiny (albeit a huge impact one *Cough* CC's FTW! *cough*) aspect of the game... is just not fun anymore) 

 

EDIT: Yes there is an issue with this saying, especially if everyone does it... obviously if everyone 'joins them' and becomes a ranged/mage class then there will be no more true 'tanks/melee' classes in game which is quite a shame... as melee can be fun at times, not to mention very useful.

 

Either way its best to try to ignore the 'weaknesses' of a melee, and enjoy it for what it is, for as long as possible, or you will drive yourself mad with all the 'advantages' a ranged/magic class has over melee toons.

Edited by Slivaf

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2 hours ago, Zerecas said:

I genuinely have no idea of how KFM works, but I am just speaking out of what I have experienced so far.

I do hope you've come to realize that being ignorant of the other side of the discussion tends to make your arguments substantially less convincing.

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But then again, in my post, I mentioned of gears are on par, if the stats from both players are big in difference, obviously the one with higher AP & Crit gets it regardless of your class. Do read up my previous post, I don't care if I got the aggro, that's our everyday situation as a range class.

Unfortunately, your assumption that having equal gear automatically means equal damage (and, therefore, equal threat generation) is completely and utterly false. You must factor in class mechanics and damage ratios/conditions too. For example, FMs have a relatively easy way to realize the full potential of their damage: Activating the burn status after stacking ember 5 times. Very easy. KFMs, on the other hand, needs to reach tier 3 or 4 Searing Palm to be more or less on par. The conditions to activate Searing Palm are relatively harder and more time-consuming. In my experience, KFMs tend to need about 50 more AP (minimum) than my FM to deal roughly the same DPS.

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I don't kite when there's melee on the party, I make sure the bosses don't move that much, or better yet, stay still. If I can't really tank it anymore, then I can simply stop attacking or freeze myself up until someone else got it for awhile. But the point is, given that the range classes got the aggro, how on earth do you, the melee dies from it as a result, like dying earlier than the aggro'd range users, dafuq? We're talking about dungeon mainly as OP posted this topic revolves around dungeon.

Believe it or not, certain melee classes, if not all of them, tend to survive more easily when the aggro is directed at them. Heroic bosses tend to be harder to predict when they're not facing you directly. Ranged classes usually don't suffer the same problem because, well, they're ranged.

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I don't know how KFM aggro skills and its cooldown works once again, but if we're to wait you to establish a solid aggro when the boss have timer, we'd better be charge at it rather than wasting time risking a fail run. Players let tanker to aggro BlackWyrm for a minute or so because there's no timer but that isn't the case in most of the Heroic dungeon.

Like another user before me said, if you can't wait 10 seconds and you get aggro, that's your problem. I'd like to add onto that by mentioning that if you think 10 seconds is a waste of a Heroic boss's rage timer and you happen to lose against said boss from those 10 seconds... Well, that's more of an issue with your party.

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Again, if you think FM or other range classes is so great, then go ahead and play it as a geared player, especially for geared FM, come back and tell me if you're playing the melee way or an actual range play style most of the time. I can guarantee you its melee most of the time. :> Unless you don't freaking care about your melee party members not dealing damage and decrease the overall output.

Essentially you're telling someone to gather their facts and reformulate their opinions after gaining sufficient experience with both a melee and a ranged class, despite knowing the crux of this particular discussion hinges upon knowing how both KFMs and FMs work. And you admitted you were ignorant of the former. Okay.

 

Apologies to those of whom I may have inadvertently reiterated of their talking points; I simply wanted to respond to this particular post immediately.

Edited by Displeased

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Zerecas   
57 minutes ago, Displeased said:

-

If you trying to intercept with your smartness then at least read up all the comments, I couldn't possibly be posting stuffs here continuously without another replies quoting on me. My less convincing argumentative points is because of my ignorance towards how KFM works, I said it as if to slap myself? I said because that's how it is, I said it based on my observation like I stated before. I don't make things out of nothingness.

 

Plus, in order to strengthen my point of view, I posted two videos with two classes in subject, KFM & FM, taking the lead respectively. So by the way, all of your comments are pretty much been answered in other of my posts, your naive perspective of range versus melee is limited to the distance themselves in against the bosses, nonetheless, is still in other of my posts.

 

And yes, playing both classes =/= experienced in both classes. Master of none is not something you could convince me with, either.

So by the way, ever since Kohashi quoted on me, I've been, and still repeatedly phrasing that TS posted his melee issue of dungeons, I pointed out that geared FM will likely to take the aggro which means, they are in fact on the same boat or worse than melee's situation, as they are in melee distance themselves. So, they keep on crying about ranged pew pew pew wahhhh, if FM can survive in a melee situation, its more than enough reason for melee to survive. Did I mentioned about which classes have higher difficulty? Lol no, I didnt. Stop taking my words out of a paragraph just to comfort whoever it is.

 

I have videos to back me up, you guys don't. That's the point. Talk about convincing eh?

Lastly, I rarely post that many replies on a single thread, since that this argument has been on an endless loop, I might as well stop too. If you're looking for my PoV, then look at other of my replies, if the answer is not the one you comfort with, then so be it. I won't entertain any further.

Not like I'm the only one that sees it that way. There are a few users here from both ranged and melees that share my thought, if not, similar. I'm never alone :>

I too, hope for faction being near balance where both sides can have healthy competition, it didn't happen. So is this "issue".   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

Edited by Zerecas

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3 hours ago, Archess said:

So i started a FM, their iframes are easier to use then a KFM's, if you never played a KFM they feel delayed by 0.2-0.3 seconds as opposed to instant on the FM, whatever i am doing in a group, its always A-OK, i can watch youtube and LB + RB & F all day and noone notices. As opposed to on the KFM if i move to much to the left, its stop moving, if i make an iframe mistake, noob, if i loose agro, WTF WTF, and so on....

That might be due to the Q/E cast time of 0.2s.

 

On topic: Yes, ranged is easier than melee. Check class population and average gear score.

Edited by Hire De Lune

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Xelo   

I truely wonder ... did you folks actually look at the screen when you created your characters? (Other than your toon itself, I mean).

 

There's a difficulty information for each class, telling you ... yes, you guessed correctly! ... how difficult it is to play that class.

 

Maybe things are just the way the game developers actually tell you right at the beginning of the game?

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1 hour ago, Zerecas said:

If you trying to intercept with your smartness then at least read up all the comments, I couldn't possibly be posting stuffs here continuously without another replies quoting on me.

Your one post that I quoted was the one I found particularly interesting and therefore took the time to respond to. If others have already mentioned the exact same things I said and you've already responded to them, then you may safely ignore my post. 

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My less convincing argumentative points is because of my ignorance towards how KFM works, I said it as if to slap myself? I said because that's how it is, I said it based on my observation like I stated before. I don't make things out of nothingness.

I did not state that you make things up, nor was I implying your observations on KFMs were necessarily wrong or right. I merely conveyed my hope to you that diving into a discussion with nearly half your knowledge missing usually makes for a poor argument. If you disagree with that sentiment, feel free to reason why you may think so.

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Plus, in order to strengthen my point of view, I posted two videos with two classes in subject, KFM & FM, taking the lead respectively. So by the way, all of your comments are pretty much been answered in other of my posts,

Just as you admitted your knowledge of KFMs is lacking, so too did I readily admit that your one post that I quoted was the only one I deemed interesting enough to reply to. Like I said before, feel free to ignore whatever I said that's already been answered, I'm completely fine with that. 

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your naive perspective of range versus melee is limited to the distance themselves in against the bosses, nonetheless, is still in other of my posts.

Please extrapolate on this. In what way have my comments led you to surmise that my views on ranged and melee combat in this game to be unsophisticated? 

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And yes, playing both classes =/= experienced in both classes. Master of none is not something you could convince me with, either.

So by the way, ever since Kohashi quoted on me, I've been, and still repeatedly phrasing that TS posted his melee issue of dungeons, I pointed out that geared FM will likely to take the aggro which means, they are in fact on the same boat or worse than melee's situation, as they are in melee distance themselves. So, they keep on crying about ranged pew pew pew wahhhh, if FM can survive in a melee situation, its more than enough reason for melee to survive. Did I mentioned about which classes have higher difficulty? Lol no, I didnt. Stop taking my words out of a paragraph just to comfort whoever it is.

This does not adequately answer the little tidbit I made about how melee users tend to have an advantage in survivability when the aggro is placed upon them. I mentioned this to directly contradict your idea that melee users have no excuse when it comes to dying whilst ranged users gain and hold aggro. If you disagree, please state your reasoning. I believe my posts were addressing your quotes perfectly within the context of the discussion at large.

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I have videos to back me up, you guys don't. That's the point. Talk about convincing eh?

I prefer reading your words than watching videos to gain a better insight into your personal reasoning on this matter. In fact, there really is no requirement to show videos; more likely than not, you could just word out a hypothetical situation or mention something you've already personally witnessed and I'll probably take your word for it (within reason).

Quote

Lastly, I rarely post that many replies on a single thread, since that this argument has been on an endless loop, I might as well stop too. If you're looking for my PoV, then look at other of my replies, if the answer is not the one you comfort with, then so be it. I won't entertain any further.

Not like I'm the only one that sees it that way. There are a few users here from both ranged and melees that share my thought, if not, similar. I'm never alone :>

I too, hope for faction being near balance where both sides can have healthy competition, it didn't happen. So is this "issue".   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

Understand that I don't fully disagree with your viewpoint and I even find some parts of your arguments perfectly valid. I only took the time and effort to reply to things that I don't agree with. The only reason I'm engaging in this discussion with you is because I think your argument could be better refined with the benefit of some added information that you may have possibly been lacking. 

Edited by Displeased

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Kohashi   
1 hour ago, Xelo said:

I truely wonder ... did you folks actually look at the screen when you created your characters? (Other than your toon itself, I mean).

 

There's a difficulty information for each class, telling you ... yes, you guessed correctly! ... how difficult it is to play that class.

 

Maybe things are just the way the game developers actually tell you right at the beginning of the game?

I dont think  all of the people did  KFM is the only class which has 4 and half stars as difficulty...XD

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Shadovvv   
7 hours ago, Archess said:

If Soulfighter reacts like FM but has melee attacks, then RIP another Tank as i will just join the ranks of Pew Pew with some melee moves thrown in for flavor.

Actually from what I am told, Soul Fighter's skills mostly have no threat generation whatsoever, so ranged or not they can't tank at all.

6 hours ago, xCandyBear said:

wtf what kind of bs is this? my sin has more ap than this fm and does way less damage with/without fighting spirit not to mention i have to dodge all the crap fk u bns i'm really pissed off now

I don't know much about FMs but there are notable pauses in between the attacks, and he has cast time for some of his attacks. FMs may have medium/large numbers, but an Sin's greatest aspect is their high attack speed, which coupled with consistent medium numbers, the right build, and little lag can have them keep up with a FM's capabilities. I will never take aggro in the beginning, but over time it will eventually come to me.

 

Also, that FM has 1559 Critical Damage, which amounts to 202%, its a huge boon over AP for their high damage numbers.

 

And the only "crap" you have to dodge on Yeti is the buttslam and ground pound if the boss is well-tanked (everyone has to dodge the ice phase). Q/E don't take more of a second to use anyway, Sins have a lot of gap closers and approach skills, and the FM stops doing damage the moment they have to freeze themselves for ice phase.

Edited by Shadovvv

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Teffy   

Well mele classes also has dps skill that make them invulnerable to dmg for short period on top of ther iframes.Let's not talk about the fact cds of iframes are nearly half CD compared to FM for example.FM SS is the worst iframe ever.Q/E 16 sec CD compared to meles 9 sec.Also KFM Iframes give them agillity buff...and they have counter...and dashes....like bms you know....

As FM that tanked nearly every dungeon I did I can tell you tanking is not hard,it's quite easy actually but it could be annoying as being,well you know mage? I don't know but being FM tank keeping bosses nearly stand still all the time is rather annoying to see meles designed to tank to actually cry about it.Give me BM Iframes and you can take my Ice tab NP.Oh and ther block.

 

FM has only 1 skill with a cast and it's the double inferno - 2.5 sec cast time skill that if both hits crit - hit for nearly 80-90k,of course depend of the gear.And it doesn't generate threat.

Edited by Teffy

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Shukran   

KFM

SSP capturing.

 

spamming legendary counter i died. 

 

FM and summoner rules the OWPVP, but  still there are players who try to convince others that melee have advantages on them.

 

ahahaha NOT.

 

go on dreaming while you outfarm us.

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Teffy   
27 minutes ago, Shukran said:

 

OWPVP, 

 

 

This game has OWPVP? You learn something new everyday it seems.

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Scorpyix   

@Teffy The OWPVP in this game is a joke because of faction balance (people + bots).
[Blademaster here] About melee vs range, i don't really feel a need to change something about my class in PVE cause this is the way it should be. Melee don't need to have range attacks or/and the bosses if you don't have a good tank eventually he will attack the ranger. So for these who feel like PVE is unbalanced, you should thanks to that tank. (summoners are not included in my equation... class for weak people)

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 To the topic

I main a sin with 505 ap and now i have fm 420 ap

I play both toons on ssp but during king tooth only fm gets chest.

My sin gets chest on tooth 1time out of 5 times n that depends on how many meele or range ppl are there.

So clearly range do have it better especially on moving boss i know that cause i play both meele n range.

Also range class can avoid 50% of boss attacks due to short distance those attacks hits.

I kinda say especially on greentooth that moves from one side to another range class clearly have it better even though u have 80-100 ap less

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GreenOwl   

1)Malee classes have much bigger stats (not counting AP) then range classes.

 

2)Range classes are much easyer then malee classes, if you want to feel real game exp, play malee class.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, GreenOwl said:

1)Malee classes have much bigger stats (not counting AP) then range classes.

 

2)Range classes are much easyer then malee classes, if you want to feel real game exp, play malee class.

 

 

sexism.... femalee should not be treated differently than malee

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KzE   
27 minutes ago, azraelkun said:

 To the topic

I main a sin with 505 ap and now i have fm 420 ap

I play both toons on ssp but during king tooth only fm gets chest.

My sin gets chest on tooth 1time out of 5 times n that depends on how many meele or range ppl are there.

So clearly range do have it better especially on moving boss i know that cause i play both meele n range.

Also range class can avoid 50% of boss attacks due to short distance those attacks hits.

I kinda say especially on greentooth that moves from one side to another range class clearly have it better even though u have 80-100 ap less

Why we use ssp as a merit? Every class will solo it later...

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Just now, KzE said:

Why we use ssp as a merit? Every class will solo it later...

Cause u get moonstones keys n ss the 3/4 most important stuff in game right now .

Everyday with my fm i get 30-38 moonstones there so its very important cause i make money there xd.

I was lucky enough to lvl up fm fast due to my sin spending over 500 gold to help fm gear up.

Now im getting my sins money bk hehe

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